Debate:Are we too hard on libertarians?
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But on the same side I have respect for libertarians and we also give them the right to bash us (no matter what may be your ideology). So if we bash libertarians but still respect the people behind it to give a friendly handshake, were is the problem with bashing if you do it with a friendly smile on your face? I think most of the pages here on RationalWiki go that route anyway. As long as we don't outright call them idiots we're good to go. --[[Special:Contributions/85.182.145.82|85.182.145.82]] ([[User talk:85.182.145.82|talk]]) 16:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC) | But on the same side I have respect for libertarians and we also give them the right to bash us (no matter what may be your ideology). So if we bash libertarians but still respect the people behind it to give a friendly handshake, were is the problem with bashing if you do it with a friendly smile on your face? I think most of the pages here on RationalWiki go that route anyway. As long as we don't outright call them idiots we're good to go. --[[Special:Contributions/85.182.145.82|85.182.145.82]] ([[User talk:85.182.145.82|talk]]) 16:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC) | ||
| − | Fully agreed on capitalism. As to states, however...It isn't as if most people had power to "decide" anything. They didn't hold a vote. The powerful, whether tribal leaders, warlords, what have you, established them, for their own advancement. This isn't hard to figure out. Hell, the nation state is any older than the 19th century even for much of Europe, let alone the world. | + | Fully agreed on capitalism. As to states, however...It isn't as if most people had power to "decide" anything. They didn't hold a vote. The powerful, whether tribal leaders, warlords, what have you, established them, for their own advancement. This isn't hard to figure out. Hell, the nation state is any older than the 19th century even for much of Europe, let alone the world.--[[User: Mcc1789]] |
Revision as of 22:05, 24 November 2010
I, for one, find the hard-libertarian philosophy (as opposed to simple civil libertarianism) every bit as disgusting as authoritarianism. But I know that what I find disgusting is not necessarily a measure of what is right or wrong. I have created this page as a place for discussion of whether pages about libertarian ideas here at Rationalwiki are too harsh on them, as has been alleged in recent days on some talk pages. Have at it!- Libertarianism, in its complete form, is a very ridged philosophy. My problem with libertarianism is pretty much the means is all that matters with no concern for he ends. They have a philosophy of complete deregulation in economics and peoples lives, let the free market decide every thing, and they kind of hope for a good out come. That said liberals dream of a fair and equitable world, with little concern on the cost of getting there. - π 11:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Libertarianism is 'I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off of my stack' dressed up to look pretty. It's basic precepts come from cloud cuckoo land and, when taken to their logical consequences, are extremely ugly. When pressed every Libertarian I've talked to has had to modify their position - well, 'no arms control' doesn't actually mean we'll allow nukes for the under fives... Are we too hard, no, we're not hard enough. Silver Sloth (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- We also have to remember that, like Christian fundamentalism, this is a very American issue. While not completely unknown outside the US it's outstandingly marginal.--BobNot Jim 12:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- The video game Bioshock presented nicely what would (probably) happen to a completely libertarian society. You'd have to pay for things like using the toilet and for air, and some crazy guy hopped up on genetic modification would kill you, too. Z3rotalk 13:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- You already pay for using the toilet; it is called the water bill. As to paying for air, people could not find any way to agree on how to privatize it for that purpose. A more realistic idea is that one would have to pay for using all the roads; ironically, privatized highways appear all the rage in Europe, not so much here.
ListenerXTalkerX 15:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, but if I wanted to, I could go out in my backyard, dig a whole, and use that, free of charge. Or make it into fertalizer, which some (weird) people do. I don't need to use the water in the toilet. And on privatized highways, they're really more like subsudized, as the state still maintains them, they just lease them to private companies. A private company building and maintaining a tollroad would be a disastor. Z3rotalk 15:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Was the Long Island Motor Parkway a disaster, not to mention all the turnpikes in the old days?
ListenerXTalkerX 15:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Was the Long Island Motor Parkway a disaster, not to mention all the turnpikes in the old days?
- Ah, but if I wanted to, I could go out in my backyard, dig a whole, and use that, free of charge. Or make it into fertalizer, which some (weird) people do. I don't need to use the water in the toilet. And on privatized highways, they're really more like subsudized, as the state still maintains them, they just lease them to private companies. A private company building and maintaining a tollroad would be a disastor. Z3rotalk 15:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- You already pay for using the toilet; it is called the water bill. As to paying for air, people could not find any way to agree on how to privatize it for that purpose. A more realistic idea is that one would have to pay for using all the roads; ironically, privatized highways appear all the rage in Europe, not so much here.
- The video game Bioshock presented nicely what would (probably) happen to a completely libertarian society. You'd have to pay for things like using the toilet and for air, and some crazy guy hopped up on genetic modification would kill you, too. Z3rotalk 13:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- We also have to remember that, like Christian fundamentalism, this is a very American issue. While not completely unknown outside the US it's outstandingly marginal.--BobNot Jim 12:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Libertarianism is 'I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off of my stack' dressed up to look pretty. It's basic precepts come from cloud cuckoo land and, when taken to their logical consequences, are extremely ugly. When pressed every Libertarian I've talked to has had to modify their position - well, 'no arms control' doesn't actually mean we'll allow nukes for the under fives... Are we too hard, no, we're not hard enough. Silver Sloth (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I believe that with mainstream Libertarian shows like South Park and Bullshit, I think someone needs to fill the void. I think every political philosophy deserves a good mocking (even my own Liberal views) in order to point out it's flaws and hopefully learn from them. But then again humanity doesn't like to learn lessons. — Unsigned, by: Ryantherebel / talk / contribs
- Z3ro, how was the Long Island Motor Parkway so different from freeways today? And in what ways would the differences that do exist have prevented the successful operation of that road by its private builder?
ListenerXTalkerX 16:31, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well, according to your own link, the state took over the turnpike in 1938 for back taxes, suggesting the road was a financial failure. But more specifically, cars today are heavier and far more numerous, leading to larger, better quality roads that need more regular maintainence. I don't know about your area, but in Chicago the roads are basically redone every 5-10 years. That's a lot of work for a private company trying to turn a profit. Z3rotalk 17:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
In answer to the debate question: "No". Oscar Wilde might as well have been accurately describing the Libertarian mindset when he wrote of a person who knows "the price of everything and the value of nothing". It's rather telling that what he was actually describing was the values of a cynic. --DogPMarmite Patrol 16:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- The question needs to distinguish between Libertarianism and libertarians. Libertarianism as a philosophy has its faults, but raises some good points now and again. Libertarians, on the other hand, are by and large disgusting individuals. They tend to be arrogant and prone to overestimating their own competence in any field in which they've done four hours of internet research. Despite their insistence on knowing the "Real Truth", they often reach wildly inaccurate conclusions, and it's startling to discover just how many of these supposed rationalists can be linked to one or another kind of quackery or anti-science. They are such unwitting slaves to their own cognitive biases that I have literally taken an argument to the point where my Libertarian opponent's implied position was "Group A's conclusions are unsatisfactory because I don't like those people; group B's are correct because I do like them"; and he couldn't see what was wrong with that.
- That being said, I should note that one of the most intelligent, self critical, and compassionate individuals I know is a Libertarian, who happens to believe that people are clever enough to make a free market really work. And while my personal experiences are probably not sufficient grounds for making broad conclusions about a Libertarian personality type, I think it's reasonable to say that there is a space there into which a Randian egotism fits perfectly (and that wasn't a typo).WilhelmJunker (talk) 18:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- That personality type is not unique to libertarians; any radicals fit the bill. The libertarian ones are only slightly more tolerable than the Reds because their world-view requires them to respect other people's property.
ListenerXTalkerX 18:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Having never known a sincere Communist (it is illegal in Texas, or might as well be), I'm in no position to contradict.WilhelmJunker (talk) 18:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- That personality type is not unique to libertarians; any radicals fit the bill. The libertarian ones are only slightly more tolerable than the Reds because their world-view requires them to respect other people's property.
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I don't understand what's so disgusting about libertarians. I consider myself to be essentially libertarian. I'm a high school student, and while I don't have a great amount of knowledge of economic theory, from what I do know, I tend to support a more conservative viewpoint. However, being an atheist and something of a philosophical objectivist, and being a supporter of some types of abortion and same-sex marriage, I don't identify with the Republican party. On the other hand, I'm not a very big fan of evironmentalism and gun control, either, so I don't identify myself as a Democrat. Since philosophy and economics seem to go hand in hand with the two major parties, I tend to identify with the Libertarian party, since it closest matches my own views. This doesn't mean I'm an anarchist, or that I believe in a totally free market, but simply that I simultaneously believe in a more right-winged economic policy and a left-wing philisophical policy. I think that people should be free to do whatever they like on their own land, provided they are not hurting anyone else.
Please don't flame me. I'm willing to discuss and debate my personal beliefs calmly and as pleasantly as I can, if you guys are willing to do the same.Skreeran (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with libertarianism in terms of "I think that people should be free to do whatever they like on their own land, provided they are not hurting anyone else.". There is quite a bit wrong, in my view, with the "I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off of my stack." side to it. The whole Libertarian pholosophy has no concept that the individual owes anything to society. Try this totally unbiased essay by someone I know Jack Hughes (talk) 15:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is that even seemingly innocuous things like smoking a cigarette do harm others. Libertarian philosophy generally goes beyond "whatever you want, provided it doesn't hurt anyone else" and into just "whatever you want." Tetronian you're clueless 15:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- In Thunderf00t's foray into libertarian politics, he mentioned repeatedly that libertarians (at least the hardcore that do go a little further beyond the basic "what you do with your own life is your business and your business alone", which I can safely say most people should be able to happily agree with) forget that we are a social species. As a whole, humans do a lot of things together, that help and hinder each other. We can't all just swagger off and do what we like as hermits - otherwise society and all its benefits and its technology would cease to be. So we sacrifice some individual "rights" for the benefit of the group as as whole. We sacrifice a relatively small amount of cash in taxes so that there's a massive pot of money ready to help the group, from roads to hospitals to energy. We vaccinate (many hardcore libertarians are very anti-vax) to increase the herd immunity so that the vulnerable who can't be vaccinated are also protected. We sacrifice the "freedom" to drive cars however we want and as fast as we want using roads, speed limits and traffic control to make things quicker, easier and safer for everyone as a whole, with minor inconveniences to individuals and very few, if any, major inconveniences to a small minority. So while it's nice to agree to that basic idea, it sometimes gets out of hand and quite scary when they go on about legalising all drugs, because heavy abusers will just die out.
sshole 15:44, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with all that, and I would also add that the "freedom" to drive a car fast is a behavior that infringes upon the safety of others. Tetronian you're clueless 15:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- Under the "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" clause? But the point is that we curb individual freedoms for the benefits of others, even if these freedoms don't necessarily affect the safety of others as directly as speeding. For instance, refusing to be vaccinated doesn't actively endanger anyone, you can't point to a person and say "they're going to die of measles because of you" - it's far more widely statistical than that.
sshole 15:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- In many cases it is indirect, such as with cigarette smoking, yet the causation is there and we do act on it with broad regulation (and rightfully so, in my opinion). The vaccine example is interesting - I suspect we don't talk about this because it hasn't become an issue until recently. But, the case that it does become a serious problem, what would the ethical solution be? I'm not so sure.
- For something like driving, as you mention, the causation is much more direct, so the solution is much easier to determine.Tetronian you're clueless 15:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- Under the "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" clause? But the point is that we curb individual freedoms for the benefits of others, even if these freedoms don't necessarily affect the safety of others as directly as speeding. For instance, refusing to be vaccinated doesn't actively endanger anyone, you can't point to a person and say "they're going to die of measles because of you" - it's far more widely statistical than that.
- I agree with all that, and I would also add that the "freedom" to drive a car fast is a behavior that infringes upon the safety of others. Tetronian you're clueless 15:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- In Thunderf00t's foray into libertarian politics, he mentioned repeatedly that libertarians (at least the hardcore that do go a little further beyond the basic "what you do with your own life is your business and your business alone", which I can safely say most people should be able to happily agree with) forget that we are a social species. As a whole, humans do a lot of things together, that help and hinder each other. We can't all just swagger off and do what we like as hermits - otherwise society and all its benefits and its technology would cease to be. So we sacrifice some individual "rights" for the benefit of the group as as whole. We sacrifice a relatively small amount of cash in taxes so that there's a massive pot of money ready to help the group, from roads to hospitals to energy. We vaccinate (many hardcore libertarians are very anti-vax) to increase the herd immunity so that the vulnerable who can't be vaccinated are also protected. We sacrifice the "freedom" to drive cars however we want and as fast as we want using roads, speed limits and traffic control to make things quicker, easier and safer for everyone as a whole, with minor inconveniences to individuals and very few, if any, major inconveniences to a small minority. So while it's nice to agree to that basic idea, it sometimes gets out of hand and quite scary when they go on about legalising all drugs, because heavy abusers will just die out.
- The problem is that even seemingly innocuous things like smoking a cigarette do harm others. Libertarian philosophy generally goes beyond "whatever you want, provided it doesn't hurt anyone else" and into just "whatever you want." Tetronian you're clueless 15:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- @Above: Well, yes. I understand the need for laws in order to protect people. I don't think that one should be able to drive recklessly, to use the earlier example. However, I do feel that I have a right to protect mysely, my family, and my home, and for that reason I believe in the right to bear arms. However, I also believe that I should be able to put whatever substance I like in my own body, provided it does not have others (and yes, I'll include secondhand smoke under "harming others," but within my own house I'm only affecting myself. Likewise, if doing PCP makes me go apeshit and hurt other people, I don't think I should be allowed to do that, either). I also believe that two people of the same same should be able to do whatever they like in their own bedroom, as long as there is consent. For these reasons I find both major parties to be flawed, and I find that it is the Libertarian party that comes closest to my own ideals. If there is another party that fits my ideals better, by all means, tell me. I understand that radical Libertarianism can be harmful, just as radical Conservatism and radical Liberalism. However, at it's roots, I think this party fits my beliefs best. I'm not sure if I'd want them running everything, but I don't know if I really want Conservatives or Liberals running everything either.75.110.212.173 (talk) 18:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- At the risk of flaming this demonstrates the biggest flaw in libertarianism, it's all about you. The problem is that Libertarianism is also about small government which is about society and, for me, this is where the wheels come off. Let's start with "I also believe that two people of the same same should be able to do whatever they like in their own bedroom, as long as there is consent." - nothing too controversial here but what if one of the consenters is, say, six years old? Too young to give consent? Who says so. Err... society says so and suddenly you have a law that affects your behaviour in the bedroom. OK, so the six year old is cut and dried but what about sixteen?,fifteen?, fourteen? Where do you draw the line? How do you draw the line? Here we have a place where it's not down to the individual. It's got to be down to society.
- And then let's talk about money. It has become quite clear recently that capitalism with the gloves off - which is also part of Libertarianism, is fine if you're one of the winners but pretty poor if your not. Isn't it funny how all Libertarians are reasonably well off and well educated? It's the political system of "I'm all right Jack." Jack Hughes (talk) 18:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think I can put it better than that. It's a very ego centric way of thinking once you scratch away the niceties of allowing some obvious freedoms, like the one allowing consensual sex between any people as they feel fit. But when you look at some of the deeper bits, particularly the financial side, it's very "oh, so you can't work because you broke both legs? Then FUCK YOU!" or "oh, you've got incurable cancer? How's that MY problem?" It can be very "fuck you" when you get into these aspects.
sshole 18:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- Libertarianism is a political philosophy. The libertarian claim is not that no one should help the man with broken legs. The libertarian claim is that no one should be beaten, imprisoned, or killed for refusing to help. I happen to believe that helping others does improve society, and am willing to shun or ridicule those who refuse to help the man with the broken legs. I just, as a libertarian, believe it would be wrong for me to use force against those who don't (assuming they haven't broken his legs). Nor am I willing to ask others (those people in government) to do something it would be wrong for me to do.
- I don't think I can put it better than that. It's a very ego centric way of thinking once you scratch away the niceties of allowing some obvious freedoms, like the one allowing consensual sex between any people as they feel fit. But when you look at some of the deeper bits, particularly the financial side, it's very "oh, so you can't work because you broke both legs? Then FUCK YOU!" or "oh, you've got incurable cancer? How's that MY problem?" It can be very "fuck you" when you get into these aspects.
That seems like a criticism of Conservatism in general, though. As a self-proclaimed Libertarian(ish), I tend to agree with Liberals on many issues. I'd really rather the government didn't control every aspect of my life, however. I used to be a Conservative Republican, and have since changed my views on several things, but one of the thing that has characterized my beliefs in government all throughout is a general wariness of being controlled by the government. I understand the need for control, no doubt about that. I'm not an anarchist. However, I'm afraid that if I give up too much freedom to the government, I will not be able to get it back. I think that a society emphasis on individuals rights and freedom is better than a society with little freedom, but an equal standard of living for all.
Perhaps I'm not explaining this well. I have a tendency to trip over my words when it comes to political debate, and my knowledge of Government isn't very good. I'll admit that. Let me put it this way: I do not want my freedoms encroached upon. I fear that it will start with wealth redistribution and end with the government controlling what web sites I'm allowed to visit, or what books I'm allowed to read. Perhaps this is an irrational fear. Again, I admit that my knowledge of government and politics has a bias. I was raised Republican, I live in Texas, I'm only 18, I don't know all the facts. But I fear that losing freedoms is a slippery slope.
In addendum, I think my primary point in this whole debate is that while there is certainly a debate over the ethics of Libertarian philosophy, perhaps there could be explored some of the positives of Libertarians in contrast to Republicans. Would you agree that Libertarians are more correct than Republicans? If not, please, explain.Skreeran (talk) 06:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
It's about extremes
My problem with Libertarianism is similar to my problem with communism.
Politics is about resolving the conflict between the rights of the individual and their duties to society. In broad brush terms parties of the left emphasise the duties, parties on the right emphasise the rights. Across the western world we see successful societies finding the balance at various different points. The US is noticeably towards the right, Scandinavian countries are typically towards the left.
Where, for me, it all goes wrong is when the debate gets pushed too far to one side of the spectrum. With Communism it's all about duties and the proletariat is expected to dedicate themselves to the state. OK, massive over simplification but you see what I mean.
Over on the other side we have true Libertarianism. Here there is no emphasis whatsoever on one's duty towards society. The problems engendered in this are brushed aside in much the same way that Communists promise jam for all in the people's democratic paradise. All will be well because human nature is best left to itself and we will all look after each other because...
Excuse me if at this point I start laughing.
Seriously successful societies have a mixed economy. Just how they make that mix may differ but stray too far outside of the centre and injustices pile on injustices. It's for this reason that I treat Libertarians with the same respect as Communists. Nice ideas but here in the real world it just wont work. Jack Hughes (talk) 11:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
From Democrat to Libertarian to...Democratic Libertarian (or something)
I was a pretty hardcore Democrat, who became a hardcore Libertarian, and who now goes for both in a kind of mushy way.
I was first exposed to a libertarian philosophy when my sixth-grade teacher actually took the time to read us every candidate's blurb from the Voter's Pamphlet. It's not that he was a big fan of libertarianism, mind you, but he felt it important to let us know that all sides existed.
I started to pay some attention to the LP during a 1992 debate between Presidential candidate Lenora Fulani (of the short-lived "New Alliance" party) and LP nominee Andre Marrou. I found Fulani singularly uninteresting (her solution for every single societal problem was to throw more money at it), but I liked some of Marrou's philosophy. However, I was 21, naive, and thought Bill Clinton was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
In 1999 and 2000, I became a big fan of Harry Browne. His online columns and his books really brought me into Libertarian thinking. I still love How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, as it taught that living life a certain way simply to gain others' approval it is pointless, and will not make you happy. I know that's obvious for a lot of people, but I had never thought that way before.
However, some things grated, particularly after the bill of goods that Browne's campaign had presented (Browne would get 10-15% of the vote, the national media would begin paying attention to the LP, and the U.S. political landscape would change forever) did not even remotely come true. When even Bob Barr in 2008 couldn't break the 6/10 of 1% barrier, I realized that no LP candidate ever will.
At the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009, the financial crisis hit. I watched with horror as the LP opposed every single intervention proposed to help shore up the economy. Even the bank bailout, which almost every single major economist across the political spectrum said was absolutely necessary to avoid a second Great Depression, was opposed by LP leaders. Keeping your principles pure as the driven snow is one thing; fiddling while the entire western world slips into a financial apocalypse is quite something else.
I am still a libertarian at heart. I believe people should be free. I believe the government sticks its nose in far too many things, and often does worse than private enterprise does. I do not approve of a government that decides what size toilets people can have in their homes, or withholds potentially life-saving drugs for years for FDA-mandated testing while people needlessly suffer and die. I do not approve of a government that has troops in hundreds of countries worldwide.
And I cannot join a Republican party that actually believes that a bunch of ancient superstitions written by ignorant tribesmen thousands of years ago should hold precedence over reason, logic or science. When leading Republican candidates fall all over themselves to loudly parrot their religiousness, it almost makes me physically ill. I also note that the Republicans seem to have no plan for our coming national debt crunch, as resolving it will necessarily involve either raising taxes or heavily cutting defense, Social Security and/or Medicare; all of these are steps that leading Republicans oppose.
So, I'm kind of back with the Democrats. Yes, they're smug. Yes, they can be elitist. Yes, they place far too much faith in government and government money as the solutions to everything. Yes, they can be anti-business to the point of hurting the people they claim to help. But at least they're not insane.
Democratic Freedom Caucus: Get yer act together and I shall check thee out.
Oh, and to answer the question: RationalWiki is neither too hard on Libertarians, nor not hard enough. Different philosophies deserve major scrutiny and critical questioning. If a set of ideas cannot withstand examination, it does not deserve existence. Raider Duck (talk) 03:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
No Man is an Island
The idea that we can all somehow lead the exact lives we wish to lead without considering others around us is vile. This is why I hate Libertarians more than Conservatives. DogPMarmite Patrol 22:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- But what if the exact life you're leading doesn't actually hurt anyone else, but only "offends" them? Do they then have the right to make you stop leading it? Raider Duck (talk) 03:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Describe such a life to me and I'll give you an answer. DogPMarmite Patrol 08:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- There's no way for that to work. If we define libertarianism as "do whatever you want to do, without hurting anyone else," then the concept is flawed. If I want to kill someone (to use an extreme and absurd example), then I am hurting someone else's life. If I don't kill that person, then I am not doing what I want to do. To me, libertarianism basically boils down to "I wanna do whatever I want to do, and you can't stop me." It's just really selfish and self-centered, and shows a basic lack of respect for anyone besides yourself. InsaneBookBadgerUnleash the badger! 22:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- It's do what you want to without hurting anybody else. Murder, robbery and other violent crimes are obviously hurting someone else, so they shouldn't be allowed. However, if you wish to smoke some pot, or have weird sex with a consenting adult of a forbidden gender, or sell something to someone else who is completely aware of the risks, who else is it hurting? Note that I'm talking about actual, demonstrable harm; "he hurt my feelings," or "what she's doing offends my delicate sensibilities" do not qualify here.
- A classic example of this "nanny state" thinking is seat-belt laws. Now, I don't go anywhere in a car without my seat belt fastened, and I get damned uncomfortable if anyone I'm riding with has their belt unfastened. But what business is it of the government's to tell me that I must keep mine fastened? It is not the government's life; it is mine, and I will preserve or end it as I see fit, not as the government does. If someone wants to be a goddamn idiot and not wear a seat belt (or a helmet if they're on a motorcycle), it's their right to be an idiot. It is not a legitimate governmental function to make us do things for our own good.
- I can't see how asserting my right to live my life the way I want it (again, I'm not talking about using force or fraud against anyone) could reasonably offend anybody. Certainly, I would not object to anyone else living similarly. I may or may not approve of the way someone else chooses to live. But it's not my right to make someone else live the way I want them to. As long as they're not hurting anyone else, it's none of my business. Raider Duck (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Isn't a friendly bashing alright?
For me, a libertarian in civic manners, the biggest problem of American libertarianism is the belief that "the market is going to regulate it, and we'll all be fine". I've made my Abitur (German High School Degree) at an Economic High School, so I've been trained to understand economics and the homo economicus to a very wide degree. As I calculated a lot of scenarios back in the old days, it became clearer and clearer to me that capitalism is basically a monetary manifestation of greed. In a libertarian society, people would only care for their own asses and would be very busy saving them - which is absolutly understandable. It's practically Social Darwinism without the "being better" element proposed with libertarianism. There's also a logical loophole in the whole thing, because if everybody would be fine without a state or with a minimalized state, why the hell did we get big states in the first place? If the whole thing were to be true, why would anybody have wanted to change it in the first place? But on the same side I have respect for libertarians and we also give them the right to bash us (no matter what may be your ideology). So if we bash libertarians but still respect the people behind it to give a friendly handshake, were is the problem with bashing if you do it with a friendly smile on your face? I think most of the pages here on RationalWiki go that route anyway. As long as we don't outright call them idiots we're good to go. --85.182.145.82 (talk) 16:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Fully agreed on capitalism. As to states, however...It isn't as if most people had power to "decide" anything. They didn't hold a vote. The powerful, whether tribal leaders, warlords, what have you, established them, for their own advancement. This isn't hard to figure out. Hell, the nation state is any older than the 19th century even for much of Europe, let alone the world.--User: Mcc1789