Debate:Hate crime laws are stupid

From RationalWiki
(Difference between revisions)
Jump to: navigation, search
Line 24: Line 24:
 
::::::
 
::::::
 
As it is, we punish crimes differently depending on the motivations of the criminal--thus premeditated murder and manslaughter are different crimes even though the victim is just as dead in either case. Given that that notion is founational to criminal law in the first place, I see no problem with expanding it to deal with the fact that some victims of crime are targetted as victims because of a particular set of motivations on the part of the perpetrator. [[User:Amin7b5|Amin7b5]] 21:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 
As it is, we punish crimes differently depending on the motivations of the criminal--thus premeditated murder and manslaughter are different crimes even though the victim is just as dead in either case. Given that that notion is founational to criminal law in the first place, I see no problem with expanding it to deal with the fact that some victims of crime are targetted as victims because of a particular set of motivations on the part of the perpetrator. [[User:Amin7b5|Amin7b5]] 21:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 +
:Murder and manslaughter are determined by intent, which is a separate concept from motive. Consequently, you can't have motive without intent. {{unsigned|Neveruse513}} 21:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:06, 15 May 2009

Debate.JPG This is a Debate page.
Feel free to add your own spin on the story. Please keep it civil!
Information icon.svg This debate was created by signed users.


The reason(s) for targeting a victim should be irrelevant to the punishment of the crime because I do not believe any additional pain or suffering is truly bestowed upon the victim.

Targets of bias-motivated crime may by distressed by the motive, but I believe targets of random acts would feel similarly distressed by the lack thereof. — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 19:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you talking about U.S. hate crime laws or other ones? Because I understand that the U.S. ones were mainly set up as a procedural thing, to bypass corrupt local courts. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 19:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't really aware of that, so I suppose I am attacking hate crime laws in general. — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Myself, I am quite skeptical of laws that attempt to push a political agenda by punishing some motives more than others. Thomas Jefferson said in the same letter where he coined "separation of church and state": "The legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 20:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the quote. — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
As has been pointed out to me before, we do punish people differently based on their intentions. Manslaughter (unintentional murder) is punished differently from intentional murder. Using this basis, hate crime laws at least have some precedent. Z3rotalk 20:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
That is not really a parallel, since manslaughter vs. murder is "no motive" vs. "any motive," whereas hate crime laws consider one particular motive vs. another. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 20:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I'd argue that the distinction is between "motive" and "intent". — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
(EC)That depends on how you look at it. No motive is different from accidental death. A crazy person may kill someone for no reason. It wasn't accidental, but they had no motive. Thus, we do punish based on motives, at least somewhat. Z3rotalk 20:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I think the "intent" vs. "motive" distinction is what I was trying to get across. Z3ro, modifications to what you said? Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 20:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't see a real difference between motive and intent with regards to criminal procedings. Motive is what matters, while intent is only considered tangentally. You may intend to develop a cure for cancer, but if your drug ends up killing millions, you will be tried accordingly. Z3rotalk 20:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
This is a horrible analogy, but if I really love to speed (or really hate speed limits) should I be punished more than you (who let's say doesn't hate speed limits or love speeding) for the exact same crime? — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, if you believe in rehabilitation, the person who loves to speed should be punished more than the person who does not. Z3rotalk 20:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
(EC) Or to rephrase, whether your motive in making a deadly drug was to cure cancer or to kill millions, you would be tried in the same manner, so motive does not matter...? Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 20:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The two terms are very similar, and I'm not a lawyer, so forgive my lay-person understanding, but motive is why you caused the crime, intent is what you meant to happen. I could be motivated to rob someones house because I'm poor, and not intend to kill the owner; motive would be no money, intent no murder. I'm rambling now, but I stand by my statement that motive can and is punished differently. Z3rotalk 20:43, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

How would the motive of not having money be punished? — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
With less of a sentence or more social programs than for someone like Bernie Madoff who was rich and still stole because he was greedy. Z3rotalk 20:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
So if I steel from you because I'm poor I get a lesser sentence. If I steel from you because I'm greedy I get a harsher sentence. What if I'm poor and greedy? — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps not a lesser sentence, but maybe enrolled in a program to give you job skills so you don't have to steal again. And if you're poor and greedy you get the greedy sentence ;) Z3rotalk 21:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

As it is, we punish crimes differently depending on the motivations of the criminal--thus premeditated murder and manslaughter are different crimes even though the victim is just as dead in either case. Given that that notion is founational to criminal law in the first place, I see no problem with expanding it to deal with the fact that some victims of crime are targetted as victims because of a particular set of motivations on the part of the perpetrator. Amin7b5 21:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Murder and manslaughter are determined by intent, which is a separate concept from motive. Consequently, you can't have motive without intent. — Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 21:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Personal tools
Namespaces

Variants
Actions
Navigation
Community
Tools
support