Debate:Is statism a type of authoritarianism?

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(OP is an idiot, here's actual interesting discussion)
(Tautology)
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::::Also, to say "no freedom of speech" is similarly prejudicial, since everywhere has some level of freedom of speech, and no state allows complete and unlimited freedom of speech, see Brad Manning. [[User:StopTheViolence|StopTheViolence]] ([[User talk:StopTheViolence|talk]]) 07:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
 
::::Also, to say "no freedom of speech" is similarly prejudicial, since everywhere has some level of freedom of speech, and no state allows complete and unlimited freedom of speech, see Brad Manning. [[User:StopTheViolence|StopTheViolence]] ([[User talk:StopTheViolence|talk]]) 07:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
 
:::::I don't understand why you think that the terms 'blind' and 'unquestioning' are prejudicial, vague and subjective. Personally, I think they have a perfectly clear meaning. I also disagree that, if those terms were used in the definition, they would lead to a supposed logical conclusion of nobody being authoritarian (which is what you said, and I don't see how that is so). In short, I have no problems at all with AD's proposed change to the definition, which to reiterate, is: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing blind, unquestioning, or absolute obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government." [[User:Nullahnung|Nullahnung]] ([[User talk:Nullahnung|talk]]) 08:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::I don't understand why you think that the terms 'blind' and 'unquestioning' are prejudicial, vague and subjective. Personally, I think they have a perfectly clear meaning. I also disagree that, if those terms were used in the definition, they would lead to a supposed logical conclusion of nobody being authoritarian (which is what you said, and I don't see how that is so). In short, I have no problems at all with AD's proposed change to the definition, which to reiterate, is: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing blind, unquestioning, or absolute obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government." [[User:Nullahnung|Nullahnung]] ([[User talk:Nullahnung|talk]]) 08:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
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::::::So, you really think there are any people who literally do not question authority ever on any level, even in their own minds? Even Hitler's guys would question him in private behind his back, were they then not authoritarians? You really deny that "blind" when used in this context is a figurative sense, or is gouging out eyeballs a necessary component of authoritarian?[[User:StopTheViolence|StopTheViolence]] ([[User talk:StopTheViolence|talk]]) 15:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
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::::::Please give simple definition of state authoritarianism in the sense that you are using it. Without that we are wasting our time.--[[User:Weirdstuff|Weirdstuff]] ([[User talk:Weirdstuff|talk]]) 08:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::Please give simple definition of state authoritarianism in the sense that you are using it. Without that we are wasting our time.--[[User:Weirdstuff|Weirdstuff]] ([[User talk:Weirdstuff|talk]]) 08:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::::I believe his "simple definition of state authoritatianism in the sense that he is using it", as you put it, is this: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government" as stated above. There is a proposed change to that definition that we are currently discussing (which was by AD somewhere up there). [[User:Nullahnung|Nullahnung]] ([[User talk:Nullahnung|talk]]) 08:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::::I believe his "simple definition of state authoritatianism in the sense that he is using it", as you put it, is this: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government" as stated above. There is a proposed change to that definition that we are currently discussing (which was by AD somewhere up there). [[User:Nullahnung|Nullahnung]] ([[User talk:Nullahnung|talk]]) 08:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:32, 1 September 2013

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Contents

Proposition

Statism is a type of authoritarianism. A statist is a person who believes the existence of a state, i.e. a government, is necessary for the proper function of most societies. Statism is the belief that society needs a state, in other words, a government. Government is an organization that claims a right to have a legitimate right to violence and which enforces its claimed monopoly on violence with violence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQl-qAtNwQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

The essence of government is people in power, telling people what to do, using violence to enforce the will of those in power. Violence is the use of force or the threatened use of force. Pointing a gun at someone is an act of violence. Violence does not only include actual use of force, but also the threat of force. Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government. Since statism is the belief that the violence of the state is necessary and good, and that there must be a state authority with a perceived right to a monopoly on violence, and that the will of those in power, who are perceived as having authority, must be enforced through violence, statism is a type of authoritarianism.StopTheViolence (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Debates

If you come on here to debate this issue, please identify which side you are debating: either yes, statism is a type of authoritarianism, or no, it is not.

So far there is a fallacious statement on the Statism page that says: "Although many libertarians and anarchists have attempted to equate the two, statism and authoritarianism are not the same thing; although most authoritarians (especially of the right-wing type) are statists, so are quite a lot of people who believe one of the functions of government is to enforce civil rights." This statement contains at least two irrational fallacies. The first part is an argument by assertion with no actual facts, evidence of reasoned argument to support it. The second part of this statement is a non-sequitor. "although most authoritarians (especially of the right-wing type) are statists, so are quite a lot of people who believe one of the functions of government is to enforce civil rights" does not support the premises "many libertarians and anarchists have attempted to equate the two" or "statism and authoritarianism are not the same thing". Nor does it logically follow from the previous assertions. Therefore, it is a non-sequitor, and this statement is irrational.StopTheViolence (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Also, please keep the debate relevant to the actual topic, which is: Is statism a type of authoritarianism? Please do not go into straw man arguments such as whether statism is "good" or "bad", or whether authoritarianism is "good" or "bad", whether statism is "better" than anarchism or vice-versa, whether one type of statism is more authoritarian than another or other irrelevancies.StopTheViolence (talk) 18:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Let me first note that this debate will not have any pertinence to the articles you have gone after recently; any edits to articles should be discussed on the relevant talk pages, not on a debate page.
Secondly, your definition of authoritarianism seems to be pretty lacking. You say that "[a]uthoritarianism is favoring or enforcing obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government." Under such a definition, I agree: statism is authoritarianism. But then, so too would be school, almost all churches, any club with rules, and so on. A school, for example, enforces obedience to the teachers and principal, so that those authority figures can set policy and create a learning environment. An unaffiliated evangelical Protestant church, for another example, enforces obedience to the church elders, who hire and fire the pastors and who set policy on the religious guidance of that body.
Almost every real definition of authoritarianism qualifies the level of obedience - the term refers to "blind obedience" or "unquestioning obedience" or "absolute obedience." Will you accept a modified definition of authoritarianism? I propose: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing blind, unquestioning, or absolute obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government." How about that?--ADtalkModerator 19:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Indeed. You need a clear definition of authoritarianism which is not defined to be the same as statism. If you define it in such a way that it is equivalent to "statism" then of course it will be the the same because the definitions are designed to be equivalent from the outset.--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
The definitions are not the same. Authoritarianism does not have to directly relate to a state, it could be a domineering husband, a cult, etc. Also, I take issue with "blind" being used in the context of the definition because it is being used in a figurative and subjective sense and I believe this debate should be geared to as objective an analysis as possible, especially since this topic is likely to be a highly opinionated one. Also, the use of "unquestioning" is deceptively prejudicial. Here is why:
Authoritarianism is a two way street. It can refer to the populace who wants a strong leader, or it can refer to a leader wanting to dominate a populace. The populace will always question the leader, at least in their own minds, if not daring to speak those thoughts aloud. Also, the domineering leader or perceived authority does not perceive his authority to be related to the level of questioning. If you ask Obama a question, will he then concede that he is not the President just because you asked him a question any more than Kim Jung would? No. Yet Obama is regarded as the less authoritarian of the two. From the perspective of the perceived leader the degree of questioning does not relate to the degree of authority. The degree of questioning ALLOWED by the perceived authorities will affect the degree of authoritarianism perceived by the populace, but the issue is not whether one type of statism is more authoritarian than another, the issue is whether statism is a form of authoritarianism.StopTheViolence (talk) 20:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
I think that I agree with the original poster's argument. While I am a statist (of the liberal variety), I don't think there's an equivalence between the obedience a church expects from its parishioners and the obedience the state expects from its subjects. The difference between the two is that the church in your example expects obedience and compliance with its rules only from the people who have chosen to voluntarily associate themselves with it. Nobody is being forced to attend (unless we're talking about a theocracy). Governments on the other hand expects you to comply with its laws whether you want to associate yourself with the government or not.
You might say that even in the most liberal of liberal democracies the state expects from its citizens full obedience. Granted, the citizens have a say in the making of laws and they can also work to repeal them, but so long that a law is on the books full compliance with it is expected from you, unless said law has been struck down by the courts (in case they are empowered to do so). Both Saudi Arabia and the Netherlands expect its respective citizenry to fully comply with its laws. The difference is that the laws of the latter have been made with the input of its citizenry, plus the laws of the Dutch are less restrictive and the punishments less severe.
I guess that the original poster wants us statists to feel bad by making us acknowledge that we're "authoritians", because authiritianism is a bad word. Quite frankly, acknowledging that I might be regarded as authoritian does not bother me at all. All I gotta say to StopTheViolence is "meh". - Bill Rawls (talk) 20:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
What I want and what you feel are strawman issues. I am not trying to start a debate on "wants" and feelings, I am looking for a rational, objective analysis.
Bringing in my personal "wants" and your personal "feelings" is prejudicing the objectivity, except insofar as those wants and needs can be shown to bias our position or argument and thus themselves effect the objectivity.StopTheViolence (talk) 20:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
Don't agree that the state expects full compliance with its laws. Some laws are kept on the books despite widespread infringement, and the state could be said to have licensed that infringement by not trying to stamp out lawbreaking to the fulness of its ability. For example, in many places, use of various drugs is illegal, but the authorities will do little or nothing to go after individual users. Or look at widespread violations of copyright laws, often the state knows about this but does little to stop it. Or teenagers violating child pornography laws by sexting, or committing statutory rape by consensual sex with others of their own age: in many more enlightened places, though these acts remain illegal, the authorities know about them and choose to do nothing. ThoughtCrime1969 (talk) 20:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Again, this is a strawman argument. Authoritarianism is not about whether you need to strictly adhere to a law, authoritarian leaders themselves consider themselves above their own laws and will break them, and the more authoritarian an observer, the more the observer will perceive a perceived "authority" as having a "right" to bend the law as they see fit, and the more authority the perceived authority figure has, the more permissive other authoritarians will be toward said bending of the law.
If a domineering husband with a severe authoritarian personality orders his wife to break the law, and she disobeys, he will beat her for NOT breaking the "law".
It is the perceived obligation to obey a perceived authority figure that defines authoritarianism, not specifically an obligation to obey the "laws" on the books per se.StopTheViolence (talk) 21:14, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
Well then, if you refuse to modify the definitions used, then of course you win the debate. Yes, under your absurd definitions, "statism" is "authoritarian." Since no one uses the term "authoritarian" in that way, though, you really haven't proven anything with any relation to reality. As I note, you have also included almost every other organization imaginable in your definition of "authoritarian."
To put it in a way you might manage to understand, if you define "being like Hitler" as "having a nose," then you can justly say that Mother Theresa was like Hitler. But that's not a meaningful statement, since you have just redefined the adjective to suit yourself.
Look up "authoritarian" in a dictionary.
"I take issue with "blind" being used in the context of the definition because it is being used in a figurative and subjective sense and I believe this debate should be geared to as objective an analysis as possible"
This is a debate about whether one ill-defined general idea fits into an ill-defined general category. It is wholly about ephemeral, abstract concepts. How can you possibly object to the use of the word "blind?!" Are you afraid that someone will suddenly start interpreting it to be literal?
In reply to Rawls, I note that I would agree with you that there is no "equivalence between the obedience a church expects from its parishioners and the obedience the state expects from its subjects." But that's not relevant here, because the issue is the specific categorization, as described by the definition agreed-upon. And I do not see at all how you could argue that most churches do not "favor obedience" to their individual "authorities." The fact that this is a moronic abuse of the term "authoritarian" and that under any reasonable use of the word you would be correct is irrelevant, alas.--ADtalkModerator 14:08, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
I see that the definition change AD proposed would make it almost word for word the one used on Wikipedia: "Authoritarianism [...]. It is characterized by absolute or blind obedience to authority, as against individual freedom and related to the expectation of unquestioning obedience." Not to say that Wikipedia is more of an authority on what words mean than a dictionary, but I would argue that if they use terms like 'blind' and 'unquestioning', then these words are hardly as subjectively variable in meaning as you seem to feel that they are, StopTheViolence. As in, 'blind, unquestioning obedience' just means you don't care too much about examining what is behind the rules and what are the consequences, you just follow them. It's pretty clear and doesn't jeopardize your goal of 'as objective an analysis as possible', as far as I can see. Something to consider. Nullahnung (talk) 14:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


Many right-wing authoritarians argue the state must be obeyed because the state has a certain sort of legitimacy which means there is a moral obligation to obey it; a legitimacy that might be rooted in God establishing the state, or in the state as an expression of some sort of national, communal, ethnic or racial identity to which one owes allegiance. On the left, few claim the state is owed this kind of obedience: if the state's demands are right, we ought to obey them because they are right; but if they are wrong, we are under no obligation to obey them, we are even obliged to disobey and oppose them. To many on the right, the state is something approaching an end in itself; on the left, it is simply a means to an end. ThoughtCrime1969 (talk) 19:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a pretty sweeping statement. Can you provide any specific examples regarding actions by perceived authority figures that actually bear this out, where a leftist authority figure has said "You do not/did not have to obey me because I am/was wrong."?StopTheViolence (talk) 21:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Social Contract

I stopped reading and started the eye rolling at this line: Government is an organization that claims a right to have a legitimate right to violence and which enforces its claimed monopoly on violence with violence. You completely fail to understand the relationship between people and government, which is unsurprising for an anarchist.-- Token Conservative Feminist Thought Police 20:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

So you say. However you have not provided a rational argument to back your assertion. This statement is fallacious in that it is a naked assertion. Further, you "rolled your eyes" is a fallacious, yet subtle argument ad hominem, as is your unsupported assertion that I "fail to understand the relationship between people and government." Rolling your eyes does nothing to advance your assertion. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_hominem

StopTheViolence (talk) 21:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Further, your statement does not even state a position on the subject matter. The subject is "Is statism a form of authoritarianism?". The topic is NOT "Does StopTheViolence understand the relationship between people and government?". You have not even addressed the subject in any meaningful way, your post is simply an irrational, irrelevant and prejudicial personal attack/straw man.StopTheViolence (talk) 21:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Read Plato's Crito, Republic and Laws, then the Social Contract by Rousseau, and finally the Federalist Papers. Also, understanding the relationship between the government and the people is pretty important to the broader debate. It's kind of like you arguing "quantum physics proves the existence of god" with you clearly not understanding the first thing about quantum physics.-- Token Conservative Feminist Thought Police 21:55, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the recommended reading. However "read these books" is not a rational argument in furtherance of your assertions. I agree that having a grasp on these power relationships is important to the larger debate. However "read these books" does nothing to logically further your assertion that I do not understand said relationships. You are merely asserting such an alleged lack of "understanding" with no facts, evidence, or logical reasoning to support such an assertion. "Read these books", "I rolled my eyes" and "I stopped reading" are not arguments that do anything to logically support your assertion.

StopTheViolence (talk) 22:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Further, your comments do not directly address any of the premises of my argument.StopTheViolence (talk) 22:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

We cannot have a debate about something you clearly do not understand. Until you do, there is no point in my responding.-- Token Conservative Feminist Thought Police 22:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Again, you assert that I "do not understand", yet you have provided zero facts, evidence and zero logical argument to support your assertion. I would recommend you read up on logic and argumentation theory.StopTheViolence (talk) 07:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
You clearly do not understand logic or argumentation theory, evidenced by the fact that your attempt at forming an argument is wholly fallacious.StopTheViolence (talk) 08:05, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Tautology

You have defined statism as a subset of authoritarianism. There is nothing to debate until you use the definition most people use. Even then there is no debate, because your assertion will then be false. AtomicPlayboy (talk) 23:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Most people would say that an authoritarian state has some or all of these characteristics: Non-democratic. No or little press freedom. No right to public debate or criticism of the state - no freedom of speech. A legal system which allow the state to make up the rules as it goes along and in which a citizen has no right to a defence. (There are probably others which don't occur to me at this moment.) Pretty obviously authoritarian states will have these characteristics. Equally obviously non-authoritarian ones won't.
But that isn't the question - it's "Is statism a type of authoritarianism?". So the proposer simply redefines a "type of authoritarianism" and away you go because the waters are sufficiently muddied with "type of" that he can defend his postion. A clearer question would have been "Are all states authoritarian?"--Weirdstuff (talk) 07:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Do you have a counter argument to my argument that using the words "blindly" and "unquestioning" are prejudicial terms to have in the definition? OR do you agree that they prejudice the discussion?
And can you propose a better definition of the term that does not include prejudicial, vague, and subjective terms, but that would define it in a precise and objective sense?
I am not objecting to improving the definition, but using imprecise subjective figurative terms like "blindly" and "unquestioning" also prejudices and muddies the waters too, would you agree? No one is wholly unquestioning, so if we use "unquestioning" in the definition, then taken to its logical conclusion, then no one is an authoritarian and the term becomes meaningless, since everyone will question some perceived authority figure on some level at some point. Even Hitler's main guys would question him behind his back in private.StopTheViolence (talk) 07:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
Also, to say "no freedom of speech" is similarly prejudicial, since everywhere has some level of freedom of speech, and no state allows complete and unlimited freedom of speech, see Brad Manning. StopTheViolence (talk) 07:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
I don't understand why you think that the terms 'blind' and 'unquestioning' are prejudicial, vague and subjective. Personally, I think they have a perfectly clear meaning. I also disagree that, if those terms were used in the definition, they would lead to a supposed logical conclusion of nobody being authoritarian (which is what you said, and I don't see how that is so). In short, I have no problems at all with AD's proposed change to the definition, which to reiterate, is: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing blind, unquestioning, or absolute obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government." Nullahnung (talk) 08:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
So, you really think there are any people who literally do not question authority ever on any level, even in their own minds? Even Hitler's guys would question him in private behind his back, were they then not authoritarians? You really deny that "blind" when used in this context is a figurative sense, or is gouging out eyeballs a necessary component of authoritarian?StopTheViolence (talk) 15:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence
Please give simple definition of state authoritarianism in the sense that you are using it. Without that we are wasting our time.--Weirdstuff (talk) 08:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
I believe his "simple definition of state authoritatianism in the sense that he is using it", as you put it, is this: "Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government" as stated above. There is a proposed change to that definition that we are currently discussing (which was by AD somewhere up there). Nullahnung (talk) 08:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks I was looking for but couldn't find it. In that case, and using his definition, he's right. But if we use the items which I mentioned about which define authoritarian states he's wrong.--Weirdstuff (talk) 08:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

OP is an idiot, here's actual interesting discussion

AD, will you please refrain from the childish name calling and try to keep the discussion on an adult level? I have started this debate to have a rational discussion, ad hominems are logical fallcies, and not logical arguments. Let's not turn this into a name calling contest. Can you please refrain from the irrational personal attacks?StopTheViolence (talk) 15:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Statism is the belief that a governmental state is necessary for the proper functioning of a society. Several sorts of idiot claim that such states hold a monopoly on legitimate use of force (to compel obedience to the law or to defend interests with the military), ignoring complicating things in their lazy thinking like contrasting centers of power (i.e. Arizona and county sheriffs and the National Guard, etc.), bodyguards, or even football.

Here is the flaw in your argument: National Guard and AZ sheriff's are both agencies of the state, and football and bodyguarding are both licensed under state licensing schemes. So your argument is a fallacious non-sequitur in that your argument does not support your premise.StopTheViolence (talk) 15:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)StopTheViolence

Authoritarianism is favoring or enforcing blind, unquestioning, or absolute obedience to a perceived authority, esp. that of the government.

Under these terms, is any belief in statism also a belief in authoritarianism? Many would say that it more fair to say that some states are authoritarian and some are not, but given the trend towards declining civil liberties we have observed in even liberal democratic republics around the world, does statism at least tend to lead towards authoritarianism?--ADtalkModerator 14:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, presumably you need to have an authority (in this case a state) before that authority can start to arbitrarily impose its will. So obviously it's a necessary condition for for an authoritarian state. But it's hardly a sufficient condition.--Weirdstuff (talk) 14:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Please specify "declining civil liberties". What picture are we looking at. I myself got the impression that whatever you could mean by civil liberties has been developping rather positively on the whole when considering the big picture over the last century or so (but then again I'm also an insufferably naive optimist). Nullahnung (talk) 14:50, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Without endorsing that actual view, I would say that declining civil liberties refers to, for example, the increasingly small sphere of privacy being left in the lives of Americans, the British, and so on, as electronic surveillance becomes increasingly routine and ubiquitous. However, I also left the term deliberately vague, so your mileage may vary. It is certainly possible to argue that civil liberties have dramatically increased over the long term, particularly for many minority groups.--ADtalkModerator 15:05, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
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