Debate:Is the government a religion?
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:Before he does, could you please prove without any possible doubt that you are not a program that exists in my computer? [[User:King Skeleton|King Skeleton]] ([[User talk:King Skeleton|talk]]) 21:49, 28 November 2014 (UTC) | :Before he does, could you please prove without any possible doubt that you are not a program that exists in my computer? [[User:King Skeleton|King Skeleton]] ([[User talk:King Skeleton|talk]]) 21:49, 28 November 2014 (UTC) | ||
::I get the impression that when I say this stuff it can come off as if I am being somehow disingenuous in questioning the state. It's not. I really do not believe in your constitution religion. The thing is, this religion is SO widespread and SO deeply inculcated(12 yrs of coerced flag worship has powerful psychological effects) into the population that most people really cannot even bring themselves to question this "sacred cow" or even conceive of someone not believing it; it seems so real to believers. So when you question it, to a believer it is like questioning the blue sky. It seems so obvious(due to repeated ritual indoctrination). But the blue sky is an empirical observation. It is self evident in that we can observe it directly. Have you ever laid eyes on the "state"? In forming rational beliefs, should we start with the facts and derive our conclusions from the facts, or should we start with our conclusions and then disregard whether facts support them or not? What facts led you to conclude that the constitution is the highest law of the land? Or did you just start with the conclusion? {{User:LogicMaster777/sig}} | ::I get the impression that when I say this stuff it can come off as if I am being somehow disingenuous in questioning the state. It's not. I really do not believe in your constitution religion. The thing is, this religion is SO widespread and SO deeply inculcated(12 yrs of coerced flag worship has powerful psychological effects) into the population that most people really cannot even bring themselves to question this "sacred cow" or even conceive of someone not believing it; it seems so real to believers. So when you question it, to a believer it is like questioning the blue sky. It seems so obvious(due to repeated ritual indoctrination). But the blue sky is an empirical observation. It is self evident in that we can observe it directly. Have you ever laid eyes on the "state"? In forming rational beliefs, should we start with the facts and derive our conclusions from the facts, or should we start with our conclusions and then disregard whether facts support them or not? What facts led you to conclude that the constitution is the highest law of the land? Or did you just start with the conclusion? {{User:LogicMaster777/sig}} | ||
| + | :::@Ikanread: I get it that governments exist. There really is a group of men and women forcing others to pay them. The pope exists. The Dali Lama Exists. I get it. During the crusades people were affected in a real way. I think Isis is affecting people in a real way. Is it then not a religion? You would surely recognize the islamic state as a religion, no? But your state is different, it's special. It's magical. You've never seen it. But you know it's there. Because the authority figure said so. The one who only gets paid if you believe. Aside from an authority figure who makes money off the perpetuation of the belief said so, got any actual evidence? {{User:LogicMaster777/sig}} | ||
Revision as of 22:33, 28 November 2014
Proposition
Is the government a religion? I think it is. Tell me why I'm wrong or right.— Unsigned, by: LogicMaster777 / talk / contribs
- No. A religion worships the supernatural. Power is not supernatural. To obey the government is not to worship the supernatural. FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 20:09, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- wp:American civil religion.
Talk to Civic Cat 20:08, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Government is not itself religion, but it will take and be given, particularly since the era of nationalism, elements commonly defined by their inclusion in religion for it's own purposes, as the link CivicCat posted shows. --Miekal 20:12, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Posting with a fair amount of ignorance—my link being somewhat quick—the question leads to what is religion. Also, while I agree that government isn't a religion per se, it can be the subject of religion, or religious-like reverence.
Talk to Civic Cat 20:27, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Civic cat: also what is government? Fuzzy cat: Do you automatically obey any power or anyone you perceive as powerful for only that reason? Or is there another reason you obey government? User:LogicMaster777/sig
- Posting with a fair amount of ignorance—my link being somewhat quick—the question leads to what is religion. Also, while I agree that government isn't a religion per se, it can be the subject of religion, or religious-like reverence.
- Government is not itself religion, but it will take and be given, particularly since the era of nationalism, elements commonly defined by their inclusion in religion for it's own purposes, as the link CivicCat posted shows. --Miekal 20:12, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- wp:American civil religion.
I would surmise because the alternatives of living in the wilderness or being in jail are not all that attractive. --Miekal 20:36, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- So, the main reason to obey is threat of jail? User:LogicMaster777/sig
- What is your preferred alternative? And as i said, the other alternatve of "living in the wilderness" isnt an appealing idea --Miekal 20:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- What is government? Another good question.
Talk to Civic Cat 20:47, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Empirically, what sets governments apart from other types of organizations is that governments use threats of violence, force and punishment in order to force people to pay them.
- The justification used for the violence is based around the belief in the invisible higher power called "the state". The perceived difference between governments which use threats to force people to pay them and mafias which also do this is that there is a perception that when the government operates this way they are doing so on behalf of an invisible higher power called "the state" which is where the superstitious religious aspects come into it.User:LogicMaster777/sig
- and supposedly on behalf of "The People."
Talk to Civic Cat 21:06, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- and supposedly on behalf of "The People."
- What is government? Another good question.
- What is your preferred alternative? And as i said, the other alternatve of "living in the wilderness" isnt an appealing idea --Miekal 20:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
A government is an entity with a monopoly on legitimate violence. Governments are inherently coercive. But modest coercion is better than no coercion in anarchy or total coercion in jail, so many governments survive. Plus, coercion can be good if it coerces a negative person, like a murderer. FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 21:14, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, but is it modest?
Talk to Civic Cat 21:16, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- "Is the government a religion? I think it is." Why do you think it is? If you are making the claim then you have the burden of proof.--Weirdstuff (talk) 21:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- FuzzyCat, when you say "legitimate" in your definitional statement you are using a value statement. That is like saying the definition of Government is "Good" violence, it is a subjective value statement, not an empirical observation. Empirically, government is a group of men and women forcing others to pay them. User:LogicMaster777/sig
- "Legitimate" is not a value statement. "Legitimate" means only that certain actions are sanctioned by the government. For example, the suppression of protests by Chinese officials is legitimate violence, while the evasion of paying taxes by Al Capone is illegitimate violence. Please don't read into my words what is not there.
- Futher, my argument that "coercion may be preferable" is unattacked. Does this mean that we agree here? FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 22:10, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, so counter-revolutionaries and those engaged in unpatriotic activities have no right to protest. We'll said, comrade.
Talk to Civic Cat 22:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know if coercion is preferable. Even if coercion is preferable, it still wouldn't prove the constitution is empirically true or that belief in government is anything more than blind faith in an invisible higher power of "the state". Even if I could pull out pie charts and graphs that show kids believing in Santa is preferable in that it leads to better behaved kids, I still haven't proven Santa is real. If we show that Mormons are less inclined to steal, we haven't proven the book of Mormon to be true, etc. You can't prove a belief to be true by showing that believing it will lead to good consequences.User:LogicMaster777/sig
- Ah, so counter-revolutionaries and those engaged in unpatriotic activities have no right to protest. We'll said, comrade.
- FuzzyCat, when you say "legitimate" in your definitional statement you are using a value statement. That is like saying the definition of Government is "Good" violence, it is a subjective value statement, not an empirical observation. Empirically, government is a group of men and women forcing others to pay them. User:LogicMaster777/sig
- "Is the government a religion? I think it is." Why do you think it is? If you are making the claim then you have the burden of proof.--Weirdstuff (talk) 21:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Socratic method. 3/10, trying too hard, lost points for lack of subtlety. --Maxus (talk) 03:10, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Good =/= legit. Suppress = legit. Suppress =/= good. FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 03:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, but raising children to believe in a deity is EXACTLY like raising a child to believe in the Great Political Leader.--Palaeonictis (talk) 05:37, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Not really. A dictator exists independently of any one person's subjective perceptions; nobody had to have faith that there was a Stalin or Mao somewhere in the world. Having faith in someone's personal virtues when they are not apparent (for example, that the great leader is kind and wise and generous when he lives in a palace and you're surviving on three grains of rice a day) is still a matter of believing in a property of a real thing, which is different to believing in something you have no way of demonstrating the existence of outside of your subjective experiences. King Skeleton (talk) 07:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- They had to have faith in the invisible higher power of "the state" as a necessary component of the cult of personality of Stalin or Mao. No one has to have faith to believe David Koresh existed. The faith element comes into it when you start to believe Koresh represents God. Likewise, the belief in the Cult of Stalin is predicated on faith in the state.
- Not really. A dictator exists independently of any one person's subjective perceptions; nobody had to have faith that there was a Stalin or Mao somewhere in the world. Having faith in someone's personal virtues when they are not apparent (for example, that the great leader is kind and wise and generous when he lives in a palace and you're surviving on three grains of rice a day) is still a matter of believing in a property of a real thing, which is different to believing in something you have no way of demonstrating the existence of outside of your subjective experiences. King Skeleton (talk) 07:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
If you didn't believe in a "state", why would you ever worship Stalin?User:LogicMaster777/sig
- No. Nobody had to believe there was a Stalin, they had to believe he was a capable leader. If you lend five bucks to your friend, it's not an act akin to religion to trust them to pay it back, it's assuming a property of a concrete thing. Believing someone to have capabilities like kindness, competence and mercy which you have observed in others is not the same as believing them to have supernatural powers observed in no other people. Also indent your posts properly.King Skeleton (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Is the Constitution a Religious scripture
Is the Constitution the bible of the local Statist religion? Are there any facts that go beyond blind faith in some variant of "Some guy said so" to actually prove that it is the supreme law of the land or to actually prove any of what it says is true or that it is applicable to anyone alive today or that it is legally binding?— Unsigned, by: LogicMaster777 / talk / contribs
- It seems more like declarations of what the state should and shouldn't do. More assertions are made in the Declaration of Independence.
Talk to Civic Cat 20:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- And what is "the state" when used in such a context?User:LogicMaster777/sig
- Socratic Method? --Maxus (talk) 20:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- What is the state in this context? A buncha guys trying to justify what some would call a rebellion: a half -decent job in theory and in practice.
Talk to Civic Cat 20:49, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Is there an actual physical object you can point to and say "That tree is the state" or "that rock is the state"? Or is the state in this context really just an idea?User:LogicMaster777/sig
- What is the state in this context? A buncha guys trying to justify what some would call a rebellion: a half -decent job in theory and in practice.
- Socratic Method? --Maxus (talk) 20:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- And what is "the state" when used in such a context?User:LogicMaster777/sig
No. It's an abstraction like money or corporations.Talk to Civic Cat 21:05, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- The basis of your argument is reification. You also can't show someone a can of blue or a specific bucket of water which is the sea. Does that mean nothing is blue and there is no sea?
- I can show you the organs of the state and the principles by which it operates, the papers which show precisely what the state does and the people who make the decisions which guide it. If none of these is sufficient, I suppose you would also have to argue evolution is a religion due to my inability to demonstrate the entire process of evolution independently of chemistry, biology or physics. King Skeleton (talk) 04:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I can show you the temple of Poseidon and the principles by which he rules the seas. The papers that document precisely what Zeus does. There were people that made decisions about what happened at his temple. If I haven't just proven the existence of Zeus and Poseidon then maybe black holes are a religion, since I haven't seen a picture. Just like how belief in non- state religion may have better enabled people to survive, belief in the state religion may also have enabled survival. Why? Because it enables them to engage in organized gang violence. If there were no "State" of Rome then how would the Romans organize to loot and pillage the rest of the world? The civilizations that had no concept of a state didn't organize armies as efficiently and got taken over or wiped out by those who had a state/army. I think there is strong evidence that the concept of government has UTILITY value. I do not think there is any evidence to show it has any TRUTH VALUE. The idea of a tooth fairy might have utility value.
- I can show you the organs of the state and the principles by which it operates, the papers which show precisely what the state does and the people who make the decisions which guide it. If none of these is sufficient, I suppose you would also have to argue evolution is a religion due to my inability to demonstrate the entire process of evolution independently of chemistry, biology or physics. King Skeleton (talk) 04:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
It gets kids to get over their anxiety of losing a tooth. Like the state, ultimately the tooth fairy only exists as a mental abstraction. User:LogicMaster777/sig
- Your argument is the same as saying the body doesn't exist because only the organs do and the body is an arbitrary label assigned to a particular assembly of them, and therefore an article of faith. Or that no particular bolt or screw is a car and therefore acknowledging the existence of a car is blind faith. The state is a complex entity (it is also a label assigned to several distinct entities, which doesn't help with a demand to identify one and only one thing as it). King Skeleton (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- My body weighs about 220 lbs. How much does the "state" weigh(rough approximation would be fine)?User:LogicMaster777/sig
- What the fuck is this, the political equivalent of phlogiston theory? King Skeleton (talk) 22:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- My body weighs about 220 lbs. How much does the "state" weigh(rough approximation would be fine)?User:LogicMaster777/sig
- Your argument is the same as saying the body doesn't exist because only the organs do and the body is an arbitrary label assigned to a particular assembly of them, and therefore an article of faith. Or that no particular bolt or screw is a car and therefore acknowledging the existence of a car is blind faith. The state is a complex entity (it is also a label assigned to several distinct entities, which doesn't help with a demand to identify one and only one thing as it). King Skeleton (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- A mental abstraction. It is basically like a corporate fiction. When we think of abstractions doing things in the actual physical universe, and writing up a book to say what an abstraction can or can't do in the physical universe, this is a form of magical thinking. In the same way it is magical thinking to conceptualize Santa sliding down a chimney with presents we REIFY this abstraction of "the state" by treating the abstraction as an actual physical entity. There actually is no actual physical state but people play make believe like with Santa at Christmas. And due to the violent system of reinforcement(school,jail, etc)THEY ACTUALLY START TO BELIEVE IN THE STATE AS "REAL" and will start to perpetrate violence because of this belief and will justify the violence on account of this belief.It becomes a religious belief system. Historically, every government which has survived over generations has had a religious element. The Pharaohs claimed to be gods, the emperors claimed to be gods or descended from gods. The king later claimed he was the chosen of god. Kingdoms that did not have this religious element, like Ghengis Khan would get usurped rather quickly. Without a government religion, the government gets overthrown within a generation or two, historically speaking. User:LogicMaster777/sig
- [citation needed] FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 03:26, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- By this reasoning, chess is also a religion. King Skeleton (talk) 04:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- What has "chess" done in the physical universe? What abstract element of chess do "believers" perceive as actually performing physical feats? The abstraction of "the state" can kill people, it can write legislation, it can sue people, etc. Yes in an abstract sense we talk about pawn taking knight. However, we do not perceive that the character in the game is actually moving the pieces. We realize it is an abstraction. We do not worship chess flags or kill people because of our strong faith in chess. There is no religious devotion to an invisible higher power in the context of a chess game.User:LogicMaster777/sig
- And yet no property of chess is inherent in either the pieces or the board. Does this make chess a religion? King Skeleton (talk) 21:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- What has "chess" done in the physical universe? What abstract element of chess do "believers" perceive as actually performing physical feats? The abstraction of "the state" can kill people, it can write legislation, it can sue people, etc. Yes in an abstract sense we talk about pawn taking knight. However, we do not perceive that the character in the game is actually moving the pieces. We realize it is an abstraction. We do not worship chess flags or kill people because of our strong faith in chess. There is no religious devotion to an invisible higher power in the context of a chess game.User:LogicMaster777/sig
- By this reasoning, chess is also a religion. King Skeleton (talk) 04:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- [citation needed] FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 03:26, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
HELL no
Let's stop for a moment, and consider that this argument is fundamentally constructed on the intent to deceive. It conflates government and religion by similarity with the intent, should the argument be accepted, of asserting that several unspoken properties of religion are also present: namely that it's based on silly or flimsy presumptions, and can be dismissed as irrelevant. This is, of course, a separate argument to asserting that the social behaviors that effect and affect both are similar. Governments have the advantage over religious entities of most sorts that they are real, and they affect people in a real way, and that's a trivial assertion to test pragmatically or empirically.
Every argument that "X is a religion" tends to make the same conflation to the same ends, and taken aside from that hidden fallacy, it's a moderately interesting question to contemplate. The social science literature on the subject is pretty interesting to read, but almost exclusively, when someone asks this question, they're trying to prove some point that's intuitively stupid. Ikanreed (talk) 05:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- If governments are not based on flimsy presumptions, can you show any actual EVIDENCE that
Pharoah was indeed a god? Was that a pretty rock-solid scientific concept? How about the presumption that the king represented God, and his authority came from God? You have evidence to support that presumption? Now, how about the modern government? DO YOU HAVE ANY FACTS THAT EMPIRICALLY PROVE THE CONSTITUTION IS THE LAW OF THE LAND, THAT ANY OF IT IS LEGALLY BINDING, AND THAT IT APPLIES TO ANYONE ALIVE TODAY, aside from blind faith in some variant of "some guy said so"? If so, please provide your non-silly, non-flimsy factual basis which empirically proves the constitution is true. That it's not something you take on a blind faith belief. Something beyond "some guys said so". No, Thomas Jefferson said so isn't proof. A lawyer who has taken a religious oath to support and defend the constitution said so isn't proof. A politician who won a popularity contest said so isn't proof. (A piece of paper written by) some guy said so isn't proof. My motivations are irrelevant to the argument or debate. Prove the existence of this invisible higher power called "the state". Have you ever observed it yourself? Aside from ritual indoctrination such as flag worship, how did you ever come to believe in it? What facts led you to accept it as real? Some guy said so? User:LogicMaster777/sig
- Before he does, could you please prove without any possible doubt that you are not a program that exists in my computer? King Skeleton (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I get the impression that when I say this stuff it can come off as if I am being somehow disingenuous in questioning the state. It's not. I really do not believe in your constitution religion. The thing is, this religion is SO widespread and SO deeply inculcated(12 yrs of coerced flag worship has powerful psychological effects) into the population that most people really cannot even bring themselves to question this "sacred cow" or even conceive of someone not believing it; it seems so real to believers. So when you question it, to a believer it is like questioning the blue sky. It seems so obvious(due to repeated ritual indoctrination). But the blue sky is an empirical observation. It is self evident in that we can observe it directly. Have you ever laid eyes on the "state"? In forming rational beliefs, should we start with the facts and derive our conclusions from the facts, or should we start with our conclusions and then disregard whether facts support them or not? What facts led you to conclude that the constitution is the highest law of the land? Or did you just start with the conclusion? User:LogicMaster777/sig
- @Ikanread: I get it that governments exist. There really is a group of men and women forcing others to pay them. The pope exists. The Dali Lama Exists. I get it. During the crusades people were affected in a real way. I think Isis is affecting people in a real way. Is it then not a religion? You would surely recognize the islamic state as a religion, no? But your state is different, it's special. It's magical. You've never seen it. But you know it's there. Because the authority figure said so. The one who only gets paid if you believe. Aside from an authority figure who makes money off the perpetuation of the belief said so, got any actual evidence? User:LogicMaster777/sig
- I get the impression that when I say this stuff it can come off as if I am being somehow disingenuous in questioning the state. It's not. I really do not believe in your constitution religion. The thing is, this religion is SO widespread and SO deeply inculcated(12 yrs of coerced flag worship has powerful psychological effects) into the population that most people really cannot even bring themselves to question this "sacred cow" or even conceive of someone not believing it; it seems so real to believers. So when you question it, to a believer it is like questioning the blue sky. It seems so obvious(due to repeated ritual indoctrination). But the blue sky is an empirical observation. It is self evident in that we can observe it directly. Have you ever laid eyes on the "state"? In forming rational beliefs, should we start with the facts and derive our conclusions from the facts, or should we start with our conclusions and then disregard whether facts support them or not? What facts led you to conclude that the constitution is the highest law of the land? Or did you just start with the conclusion? User:LogicMaster777/sig