Debate:Logical proof of the existence of God
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:First it says that temporal existence is ok, because it doesn't violate the law of the excluded middle, but then it says that if all existence is temporal, then that violates the law of excluded middle somehow. I don't really see how that happens, but if we accept that and move on, the proof is reasonable up until the last sentence, where it just jumps to the conclusion that the eternal existence must be intelligent, all powerful and all-knowing. It's nothing new, really, just a reiteration of "life is so complex, it must have a <s>creator</s> intelligent designer" -- [[User:Nx|<font color="teal">Nx</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Nx|talk]]</sup> 05:50, 4 January 2009 (EST) | :First it says that temporal existence is ok, because it doesn't violate the law of the excluded middle, but then it says that if all existence is temporal, then that violates the law of excluded middle somehow. I don't really see how that happens, but if we accept that and move on, the proof is reasonable up until the last sentence, where it just jumps to the conclusion that the eternal existence must be intelligent, all powerful and all-knowing. It's nothing new, really, just a reiteration of "life is so complex, it must have a <s>creator</s> intelligent designer" -- [[User:Nx|<font color="teal">Nx</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Nx|talk]]</sup> 05:50, 4 January 2009 (EST) | ||
| + | ::Zaku, I think you're confusing the [[wp:Law_of_excluded_middle|law of the excluded middle]] with the [[wp:False_dilemma|fallacy of the false dilemma]]. They're not the same. --{{User:AKjeldsen/sig}} 07:07, 4 January 2009 (EST) | ||
Revision as of 12:07, 4 January 2009
One of my Christian friends has been spreading this odd little piece of writing around... he says its the work of a yet-to-be-identified theology professor. Here it is as he gave it to me.
Logical Proof of the Existence of God
1. Reason is clear (the opposite being impossible), because it is self evident and innate (because we use reason to understand everything); consisting of the (1) law of identity (a=a), (2) the law of the excluded middle (a or not-a), and (3) the law of non-contradiction (not both a and not-a in the same respect and at the same time).
2. Existence is clear, because of the law of identity (a, must exist). Temporal is clear, because of the law of non-contradiction (can have both a and not-a but at different times). Eternal is clear, because of the law of the excluded middle (eternal is not-temporal, if a exists than not-a exists).
3. Existence is eternal (no beginning and without change) or temporal (has a beginning and changes)… Eternal existence is clear; because if all existence was temporal then being/existence came from non-being/non-existence, this violates the law of the excluded middle (because then there would be no difference between a and not-a and there would not even be a).
4. All things are eternal or some is eternal… The existence of the self or mind is clear; because of the ability to think, thought is an action and action proves existence (law of non-contradiction, a to not-a, a change proves existence of something). Mind is conscious (self aware), temporal (not all knowing), and has no extension/form. The existence of matter is clear; because (1) my mind does not have total control (more than I exists), (2) my mind has some control and involuntary sensations (I am not part of another's mind), (3) unlike minds, there is existence, outside of all minds, that has extension and no consciousness. It is clear that matter (that which is extended and not conscious) is temporal; because it is not self maintaining (entropy), had a beginning, and changes. So, some is eternal.
5. Eternal, non material existence is clear. The existence of God is clear; because eternal existence caused matter to come into existence (no other source), so an intelligent (evidenced by order and complexity), all powerful (created out of nothing), and all knowing (intelligence and eternality(sic)) Creator exists.
According to my friend, this proof demonstrates, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that God does indeed exist, and therefore Christianity is correct. I, on the other hand, believe that the existence of a supernatural being cannot be logically demonstrated, and must be taken entirely on faith. I would be interested to see some of the insights of the contributors here.
For those who are interested, an altered version of the above proof that deals with the laws of identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction can be found here at CARM.Zaku 05:08, 4 January 2009 (EST)
Contents |
Against
To start, I'll offer my own ideas about this proof. My main problem with this proof is the law of excluded middles, which according to the CARM link says that "a statement is either true or false. Thus the statement "A statement is either true or false" is either true or false." To me, this statement represents an absolutely dualistic view of the world: something is either A, or it is not A. This dualistic worldview does not allow for degrees of separation between A and not A. Therefore, consider the statement, "This statement is false." According to the law of excluded middles, this statement is a paradox: it cannot be true, since that would make it false, and it cannot be false, since that would make it true. Logically, this statement is most likely the result of, to borrow a literary term, an "unreliable narrator" (i.e. a person who produced the statement unintentionally or intentionally in order to to create a contradiction). Nevertheless, according to the law of excluded middles, this statement cannot exist... and yet it does. In my opinion, this invalidates the entire proof, since it is based on flawed logical precepts.
I also see somewhat disturbing sociological implications in the law of the excluded middle. Christianity promotes the idea of absolute truth, the source of which is God. Therefore, Christians belief that some things, like homosexuality or extramarital sex, are absolutely sinful and wrong. I believe that this kind of thinking promotes the "us versus them" mentality that I see on Conservapedia and among many of my Christian friends. They believe that the world is divided into two kinds of people: believers and non-believers, and there is no middle ground. This generates animosity between these two groups, and results in conflict. The law of the excluded middle creates division and leaves no room for compromise. That is why I believe it is a flawed concept and must be discarded.Zaku 05:08, 4 January 2009 (EST)
- First it says that temporal existence is ok, because it doesn't violate the law of the excluded middle, but then it says that if all existence is temporal, then that violates the law of excluded middle somehow. I don't really see how that happens, but if we accept that and move on, the proof is reasonable up until the last sentence, where it just jumps to the conclusion that the eternal existence must be intelligent, all powerful and all-knowing. It's nothing new, really, just a reiteration of "life is so complex, it must have a
creatorintelligent designer" -- Nx talk 05:50, 4 January 2009 (EST)- Zaku, I think you're confusing the law of the excluded middle with the fallacy of the false dilemma. They're not the same. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 07:07, 4 January 2009 (EST)