Debate:Otherkin

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It has come to my attention that other therians should be called here? For testimony of our beliefs? For what? For whom? I don't think any of are coming here for approval or to '''prove''' ourselves. I was asked here to give logical evidence. Well, there isn't any. There is no evidence that there is a God, and I'm a Christian, I just know he's there I believe he's there. I also believe that I have a soul and a spirit. I believe that my spirit is all wolf. I believe and that is enough fact for me. It is a debate and always will be one that no one person can make another belief. A fight as old as religion and science, it is religion and science! Be mean about it, be mealy-mouthed, you will get no where with me and if any other therians know any better you won't get anywhere with them either. There is no explaining this to the close-minded and that's just what half of the people '''"WE CRAZY"''' are being.- ForeverChagrin
 
It has come to my attention that other therians should be called here? For testimony of our beliefs? For what? For whom? I don't think any of are coming here for approval or to '''prove''' ourselves. I was asked here to give logical evidence. Well, there isn't any. There is no evidence that there is a God, and I'm a Christian, I just know he's there I believe he's there. I also believe that I have a soul and a spirit. I believe that my spirit is all wolf. I believe and that is enough fact for me. It is a debate and always will be one that no one person can make another belief. A fight as old as religion and science, it is religion and science! Be mean about it, be mealy-mouthed, you will get no where with me and if any other therians know any better you won't get anywhere with them either. There is no explaining this to the close-minded and that's just what half of the people '''"WE CRAZY"''' are being.- ForeverChagrin
:Nobody is having a go at you, so don't automatically take a victim stance. Most of us never heard about this until the other day and we are naturally sceptical people. I find non material explanations for thing a little hard to swallow so all this animal soul stuff sound like woo to me, especially when the explanations that don't rely on mystical wolf spirits are a lot simpler. - [[User:π|<font color="black">'''User'''</font>]] {{User:Π/Sig/randpi}} 00:10, 23 January 2009 (EST)
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:Nobody is having a go at you, so don't automatically take a victim stance. Most of us never heard about this until the other day and we are naturally sceptical people. I find non material explanations for things a little hard to swallow so all this animal soul stuff sound like woo to me, especially when the explanations that don't rely on mystical wolf spirits are a lot simpler. - [[User:π|<font color="black">'''User'''</font>]] {{User:Π/Sig/randpi}} 00:10, 23 January 2009 (EST)
  
 
==More==
 
==More==

Revision as of 05:11, 23 January 2009

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Contents

The Beginning

So my student newspaper (in an aside, undergrads are so cute, the way they think they're the first people in the world to figure things out...) had a piece today on Furries and the need to respect them for their practices and beliefs, and then went on to talk about another bunch of self-marginalising, self-absorbed weirdos vibrant alternative community who call themselves "Otherkin." It seems, from the few sentences I read, that these people believe that they are, at heart, aliens/star people/elves/unicorns/what-have-you who are currently embodied in human bodies....does anyone know much about these folks? You should write an article if you do....TheoryOfPractice 20:46, 21 January 2009 (EST)

I do. I am otherkin. To be specific wolf-cheetah. Or cheetah-wolf (the cheetah side's dominent). And we aren't self-marginalising. Or weirdos. Our thought proccesses merely mimic that of another species. Or two. I believe that it is because of my brain, as I also have autism. Possibly the two are connected, there is some speculation within the group about that. Some invoke the supernatural. Some are Christains. Some are Jews. Some are Muslims. Some (most, actually) fit most closely with other, or pagan. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 20:53, 21 January 2009 (EST)
HAHAHA. Why am I not surprised that YOU, of all people in my life, is the one person who would actually go around thinking he is a wolf-cheetah. What the hell do we know about the thought processes of either of those two species, never mind the amalgamation of the two....good God, this is hilarious...TheoryOfPractice 20:55, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Shades of $cientologists! Toast s.png (Toast) and marmalade 20:58, 21 January 2009 (EST)
I don't buy the pseudoscience/theology that animates therianism or any of that either, but I'm not a fan of making fun of people for it either.-Diadochus 21:01, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Have you read what we say about the Christians? You should have been here when Susan was around...TheoryOfPractice 21:04, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(EC)Go bite yourself. And by thought processes, I mean behavior, i.e. instincts, i.e. we feel the need to do some of the same things they do- hunting, howling, running, swimming, etc. And it can be very obvious. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:00, 21 January 2009 (EST)

That just sounds like you're an outdoorsman.-Diadochus 21:01, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Or have rabies...which I suppose is a distinct possibility...TheoryOfPractice 21:03, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Shut up!

I'd like to hear more though...?-Diadochus 21:02, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(EC)If you do. . . than here's your chance. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:04, 21 January 2009 (EST)

The only time I've ever heard anyone talk about "otherkin" was when they were mentioned on a gaming podcast I listen to, mentioned because some of the otherkin actually felt related to some of the fictional video game characters, though animals and more traditional myths are apparently much more common. I guess "otherkin" would cover those who consider themselves vampires, too. Wikipedia gently describes the thought process: "Otherkin often believe themselves to be mythological or legendary creatures, explaining their beliefs through reincarnation, having a nonhuman soul, ancestry, or symbolic metaphor." --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 21:05, 21 January 2009 (EST)
As with all furry-esque concepts, follow any links at your own risk. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 21:06, 21 January 2009 (EST)
CUR, I'd rather not involve myself in the community there - Arcan gets it - and I'd rather hear more about your own perception of it.-Diadochus 21:07, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Just to remind folks, humans are mammals, so it should not be surprising if we have instincts toward "hunting, howling, running, swimming, etc.". Just sayin'.-- Asclepius staff.png-PalMD --If it looks like a donut... 21:10, 21 January 2009 (EST)

How is howling human? --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:15, 21 January 2009 (EST)

This is human howling: ROTFLMAO. Actually, when I hear the neighbor's dog barking, I often step outside and howl back at him. Just can't help myself. Hey, did anyone else see how friggin' bright Venus was this evening? ħumanUser talk:Human 22:21, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Pal takes the obvious alternative argument. As always, Pal, good show.-Diadochus 21:12, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(2nd EC) My perception? Gosh, I'm flattered. But really, I can't speak for the community. If you want, I can possibly convince a few to come over here- but one of me is probably enough. So- therianthrophy (the condition of being a therian), as far as I am concerned, has to do with irregular synapse links. As such, our brains are screwed up. This fits, because I suffer from autism. Now, your therianotype, has do to with your subconscious. If you feel the urge to howl at the moon and be part of a pack, you're a wolf (and the most common type). If you feel the urge to swim in a river, darting through driftwood, playing, sliding down riverbanks, and catching fish, you're an otter (very rare). Our therianotypes tend to be visible to outsiders too- we snarl when startled, or (in my case) do that thing with our arms that cats do to clean their ears (I don't have a word for it). --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:15, 21 January 2009 (EST)

That would explain your morbid facination with MOAR KITTY — Unsigned, by: 24.13.203.96 / talk / contribs

"[O]ne of me is probably enough", that is the most accurate thing you have ever said. - User \pi 21:32, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Are there any articles or controlled studies on this condition in peer-reviewed journals dealing with mental health issues? TheoryOfPractice 21:19, 21 January 2009 (EST)
I concur with Pal that these behaviors are more likely primal human than modern animal. Recall that what is or isn't human behavior is a societal construct. I'd say you're living out your human life differently, but not animalian.Diadochus 21:19, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Ahem. I inflect NO judgment in that sentence. How you choose to live your life is your biz, I'm just trying to logically square it.-Diadochus 21:20, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Humans don't howl, Diadochus. Humans don't have the urge to run on all fours and hunt with wolves. Humans don't snarl when suprised or injured. We aren't 'primal' humans. It's modern animal (though I do know of a therian who's 'type is a prehistoric cat) --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:23, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(EC)Look. I figured out what I was about a month ago. I have no idea if there was one, but I'm willing to bet there isn't. Therianthrophy is relatively unknown. Thank goodness. I don't need people accussing me of having a dark connection to werewolves. I have no wish to be run out of town by angry farmers with pitchforks. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:23, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Or run out of a wiki by angry sysops with banhammers....TheoryOfPractice 21:25, 21 January 2009 (EST)

TOP has a point(or a blunt banhammer)

So what? I'm a therian, and I can't be sysop anymore? That is the dumbest reason to promote me ever. You could surely come up with better ones. However, let's stay on topic. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistor

is the chief bickerer 21:27, 21

Actually, bozo, I was referring to your therian misadventures on CP earlier on today...but now that you mention it...TheoryOfPractice 21:30, 21 January 2009 (EST)


I didn't tell them I was a therian. They didn't know. For God's Darwin's sake, I said it was pagan and evil! Surely no more is required to fool them! --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:32, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(massive ec) I had a student, about 12 yo, who was very autistic, and he identified with a pterodactyl. In his case, he cawed like a bird, flapped his "wings", and "perched" on his chair when he was overwhelmed. Now, it's fairly obvious that he had no idea how pterodactyls acted, but the concept was appealing to him. He wanted to identify with the pterodactyl because he thought they were both big and strong (which he was neither) and they had wings (a method of escape). In other words, they were what he would like to have been when he was scared. It seems, from the extremely limited contact I've had with other "otherkin", that this is generally how the process works. The identification happens with creatures that the person would like to be or with creatures who are naturally associated with a characteristic they might feel ashamed of, such as a meek person feeling like a mouse, in order to justify that characteristic. Then again, it's not like I've done extensive research, so YMMV. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 21:28, 21 January 2009 (EST)

CUR, your insistance on defending your "alternate lifestyle" shows much about you Liberal Bias What's more, not only do you support equal rights for therians, but you also want to censor classroom prayer and support evolution. After reviewing your contribs, I find a recurring pattern of talk,talk, talk, with little or no substantion contributions, and you are at risk for a 90/10 block. Now go and contribute, as I'm going to do now. Thanks and Godspeed24.13.203.96 21:44, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Arcan--what you describe sounds like a complex mental illness---the article I was talking about the first place, way up at the top of this section, made it sound like a club, a social thing, a gaming thing, a sex thing, masquerading as self-delusion/pretentious nonsense. TheoryOfPractice 21:33, 21 January 2009 (EST)
It is complex. But's it's only an illness in the same sense that autism is an illness- not bad, but unusual. And that's a gem up there. I'm going to copy and paste it. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:34, 21 January 2009 (EST)
My student didn't know of this "otherkin" stuff, it was just something he did, and in his case, it was a complex mental problem. I have no doubt that many otherkinners (?) choose to act this way, I'm just offering an explanation of the reasoning behind it. Of course, there are just as likely those who do it because they know it's weird and, as such, will gain them acceptance to a cliquey niche subculture, like some kind of "weirdo trendy". --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 21:41, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Surely it's just an extreme (?) of the spectrum of normal Human behaviour? Toast s.png (Toast) and marmalade 21:42, 21 January 2009 (EST)
It definetely is not. Oh, and the one's I know definitely aren't pretenders. Especially since being a therian will likely just make life harder. Believe me, it's no piece of cake. Oh, and we don't choose to act this way. We do. The only times we choose to act that way is at howls- therian gatherings. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:46, 21 January 2009 (EST)
But you do choose to identify the way you act (whether it is voluntary or not) with an animal. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:48, 21 January 2009 (EST)

"howls..." Just when I was thinking of starting to take you seriously. "Howls." TheoryOfPractice 21:50, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(EC)So? It is a logical identification. And it also is the way we feel. We feel like a wolf or a cheetah or a whatever. Oh, and who are you talking to, TOP? Me? --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:51, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Howls must be a real hoot! <drum riff, dodges tomatoes> I'll be here all week, folks. --Purple George!YossieSpring in Fialta 22:00, 21 January 2009 (EST)
As for the "we wouldn't choose it, because it makes life harder..." Bullshit. punks, neo-nazis, bookish misanthropes, lots of people choose lifestyles that make their lives harder in some ways...TheoryOfPractice 21:54, 21 January 2009 (EST)
(ec)It certainly is a choice. How do you know you're howling like a wolf and not a dachshund? What parts of you are cheetah? You're deciding what you'd like to emulate, whether or not you've got some real emotional/mental need (like my student). --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 21:56, 21 January 2009 (EST)
As far as it being an illness, is it? Being different doesn't mean that you're ill. Consider that homosexuality used to be in the DSM. (Evidently there is some debate over including some of the stronger sexual fetishes in the upcoming DSM V, but I may be wrong.) I mean, there are millions of Nickelback fans, and I don't know of any modern science capable of explaining that. Either way, I performed a quick medline search and can't find anything. Interestingly, though, here is a case report on a young man who thought he turned his mom into a wolf. CorryMom signed me up for the army, just because the fat man dared her to. 21:57, 21 January 2009 (EST)
(EC x many) Feeling like an animal is understandable, but it's a bit of a leap to say that's is a logical identification. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:58, 21 January 2009 (EST)
If I gave the sense that I thought it was an illness, I apologize. I'd certainly agree that it's not an illness, but it can arise from some serious mental/emotional problems. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 21:59, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Corry makes an excellent point. Nickelback DOES suck. Get your voices examined and fix that scratchy business, for God's sake...-Diadochus 22:00, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(5th EC AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGG) (4th EC)You think we want this? I can't speak for others, but I don't. I am torn between three sides of me- the cheetah, the wolf, and the human. Oh, and the Vulcan. Yes. The ears. The EARS! I would give almost anything to just be one of those sides, to be able to stand being in my body. So don't you tell me I want this. I don't. I live with it. I try to make it a good part of my life. But I don't want it. I didn't ask for it. By the way, dachshund's don't howl at the moon in a pine forest. Wolves do. Cats don't feel the urge to chase down gazelle. Cheetahs do.

Weasel, it is logical. I look at my feelings and compare them to the animal that they most closely mimic. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 22:02, 21 January 2009 (EST)

That's exactly why it isn't logical. Those creatures are decided by you on an emotional, subjective & arbitrary basis. Every human being has different aspects of their character, & sometimes struggles or swerves between them. That's human nature. Different people find different ways of explaining or dealing with that, & often feel like they've realised something profound about themselves when they're actually just looking for a simple explanation that seems to account for the way they feel. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:11, 21 January 2009 (EST)
I try to find the most logical explanation. Therefore, it is logical. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 22:15, 21 January 2009 (EST)
That's not the way logic works. You're essentially saying, "I want it to be logical, therefore it is." --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 22:19, 21 January 2009 (EST)
  • reads back* Wait--you also think you're a Vulcan too? As in a made-up character from a cheesy, 1960s television show? TheoryOfPractice 22:21, 21 January 2009 (EST)
If you can think of a more logical being, tell me. Oh, and I'm not saying that since I want it to be, it is. I'm saying that if I try to deduce something logically, the answer is logical. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 22:22, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Vulcans aren't "logical beings," as in they don't, um "be." TheoryOfPractice 22:25, 21 January 2009 (EST)
(ec)Yes, the most logical solution is that you are a human. Just because you think your method is logical doesn't mean your solution is. I'm honestly not quite sure what your "logical" reasoning can be such that you end up at an "otherkin" solution, though I can be certain that there is some flaw in it. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 22:27, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Your logic is starting from an emotional premise ("I don't feel like I'm a normal human being") and jumping to <spock>highly illogical</spock> conclusion without looking at more plausible explanations. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:30, 21 January 2009 (EST)
(EC)Can you clarify what you believe the actual connection you have with these animals is & how you believe you come to have it? On the Otherkin article you said it isn't supposed to be science, but here you seem to be saying that this is a real condition you have relating to animal characteristics. Please elaborate. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:24, 21 January 2009 (EST)

(2nd EC, and how come everyone is so interested? Give me room to breath.)The condition is real. But it is mental, not scientific. There is no scientific theory on therianthrophy, aside from idle speculation. I plan on organizing a study using MRI scans when I am older. Until then, it is not science, but the connection is still real. If you love someone, is that condition of love real? Yes. Is it scientific? No. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 22:28, 21 January 2009 (EST) I was joking about the Vulcan. I meant the logical part of me. Oh, and there is no flaw in my logic. I think like an otherkin. I act like a therian. Therefore, the most logical solution is what? Correct. I am a therian. Live with it. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 22:30, 21 January 2009 (EST)

If you love someone, is that condition of love real? Yes. Is it scientific? No. Go read about Harry Harlow and the wire mothers and see how wrong you are...TheoryOfPractice 22:31, 21 January 2009 (EST)
It's not a matter of us "living with it". Most of us are of the "live and let live (for the most part)" mindset. Saying that "therian" is a logical conclusion is another matter entirely. I can understand the need to identify with something other than yourself, but claiming that you are something other than human is essentially half-way to madness. The fact that you feel and act that way merely means that you feel and act that way. In the matter of being homosexual, feeling and acting gay are the only prerequisites for being gay. It is not sufficient to feel and act like an animal to be an animal. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 22:41, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Freaking ridiculous. Otherkin? please....Ace McWickedRevolt 23:15, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Not entirely cool....-Diadochus 00:13, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Okay, so for the record, CUR, like most people at this site (as you've probably seen) I'm not so sure about this Therian-ism business, mostly because it seems a tad contrived to us, and (obviously) different. But I at least will defend your right to be who you want to be, different or otherwise on this site :).-Diadochus 00:13, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Way to pull a Voltaire on us, Diadochus. ;) --Purple George!YossieSpring in Fialta 00:20, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Unforch with none of his dry whit...-Diadochus 01:05, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Ace McWicked with friend - Otherkin's from way back

The model to test

Now, now rejection out of hand is not the right way to go about this. If the idea is merely an allegory, with no claim to "fact" than terms like "scientific" or "logical" do not apply and the realm of debate is different. But it seems that it is being put forth that this is something "real" I even see the suggestion that fMRI might be used to test it? Well help me to understand, what is the hypothesis, what is the model? What are the predictions and test that derive from this? tmtoulouse 01:36, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I see two options:-
  1. This is harmless fun, like those people who learn elvish from the Tolkein books, but, as with learning a made up language, it is basically meaningless.
  2. People really think that they are 'otherkin' which is woo, pure and simple and should be filed along with people who have 'psychic' powers or channel messages from aliens.
If it's harmless fun I don't see much reason for it on RW unless someone wants to. If it's woo then we should treat it as such. Silver Sloth 06:21, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I don't think anybody's objecting to the hobby/fantasy/subculture aspect of otherkin. The contentious issue is asserting that these people have a real connection to animals, with no rational explanation to back this up. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:10, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Asserting that people have real connection to animals is woo and should be treated as such. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs and the burden of proof is on the proponent. This is, after all, Rationalwiki. Silver Sloth 08:34, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Good idea about running fMRI on this, it could throw up some interesting results if it wasn't harmless fun. Probably something similar to how people may have gender identity problems. ArmondikoVsshole 09:01, 22 January 2009 (EST)
We call it species dysphoria. I believe it may well be part of our brain. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:32, 22 January 2009 (EST)

The politics of otherkin-ness

So here is the article that started this whole thing. It's not really a great bit of writing. The author is trying to balance the argument that otherkin are profoundly unhappy/ill/disturbed with an argument that we should accept them the same way we accept any socially awkward kid, if not embrace them for their uniqueness. Politically, what interests me is the extent to which otherkin-ness, like, say, homosexuality or different ideas about gender, may be used as a position from which to make claims. Most of us thing it's reasonable that gays should be allowed to marry and adopt children; more and more universities are rebranding washrooms/locker rooms for transgendered people. Could this trend be taken up be otherkin, with public facilities mandated to meet their needs (can elves share a changing room with dragons? Do unicorns require troughs in the cafeteria? Should CUR be allowed to howl in the park or chase rabbits on public land?) If people want to dress up as giant bunnies for sex play, or go get their ears pointed and to conventions with all their elvish friends, I don't care; whatever gets you through the night. But if people are going to water down the long struggle for equality and accommodation and acceptance waged by LGBT people and ride shotgun on those struggles because of silliness and woo, that's not cool. TheoryOfPractice 09:17, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Relax. We just want to be left alone. And stop critizing my brain. I can't help what I am. And it's not woo. It's a philosiphy. Be more respectful. Actually read the article that I linked to. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 12:09, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Well, you're not really in a position to speak for an entire community, are you? "I can't help what I am" is the first step toward using a subject position as a place from which to make claims. I'm curious as to whether or not that's a possibility with so-called otherkin...if they see themselves as hard-wired this way, if they see their otherkin-ness as something akin to biological sex, sexuality, skin colour, what-have-you, then there are bound to be political consequences to that...TheoryOfPractice 12:14, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Yes, why are we being so nasty about otherkin when we are tolerant of pagans, Catholics, Muslims, and most other beliefs? Phantom Hoover 12:24, 22 January 2009 (EST)
And so what, frankly? Currently, this subculture is far too small and marginal to ever make any kind of "claims". I don't think that's ever going to change, but if it did, it seems fair enough to consider whatever hypothetical claims they'd come with on an equal footing with any other group that makes up a significant part of society. For the moment, though, I can't for the life of me seem why it's any of my business if a bunch of people want to go around and identify with animals if that's what they want. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 12:31, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Yes, why are we being so nasty about otherkin when we are tolerant of pagans, Catholics, Muslims, and most other beliefs

Well, we're not tolerant of most other beliefs; antisemitism and anti-muslim discourses abound. try getting elected to public office in the US as a pagan. But the big difference you're missing is that this is, from CUR's POV, is NOT about belief...it's what he IS. And if he IS a wolf-cheetah or a unicorn inhabiting a man's body, is he entitled to the same rights and/or claims to rights as say, a trans-gendered person based on those differences? The implications, while limited in scope due to the relatively small size of the community in question, are still important. A hundred years ago, the idea of a trans-gendered washroom or a gay couple adopting and getting married were as insane and unthinkable as the idea of accommodating the particular needs of an otherkin. In a hundred years, will some of us be seen as racists of a sort for not accommodating the needs of people based on their biological make-up? TheoryOfPractice 12:55, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I meant here, which seems fairly tolerant towards beliefs, so long as they are not particularly hateful. How does the otherkin's assertion that they are the souls of something else in a human body differ from Catholics' that the eucharist is literally the flesh of Christ? Phantom Hoover 13:01, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Well, our society has evolved to allow us to accomodate those beliefs--we don't lock people up or medicate them for believing such things; we give them days off of work to participate in the rituals prescribed by those beliefs, etc...but you're not paying attention--this is not about belief, it's about biologically-determined subjectivities, like sex or sexual orientation, skin colour, or deafness, say--CUR does not believe he's a wolf-cheetah, he says the way his brain is wired MAKES HIM a wolf-cheetah. There are implications to that.TheoryOfPractice 13:15, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I agree, but I was attacking the dismissal of all otherkin, not the ones who make silly statements like CUR. If they just claim things about the soul, it is on the same ground as most religions, and should be treated as such. Phantom Hoover 13:20, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Was anyone here saying much towards otherkin in general, other than saying if they think it's a real biological condition, it's woo? It seems like most of the discussion here is more about CUR's statements than the (rather loose) group at large. --Kels 14:25, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I was just going by CUR and a rather lame story in a student newspaper...perhaps you can shed some light onto thso discussion? 14:35, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I don't think we're being intolerant. Just addressing these beliefs from a skeptical perspective as is the nature of the site. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 15:04, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I feel so sorry for the otherkin; it must be awful to have your representative as CUR. Phantom Hoover 15:24, 22 January 2009 (EST)

See if You feel Sorry After Reading This

In summation of your various attacks on me, I offer you this Lenski-esque piece of work. You had it coming. Read all of it. If you don’t, I’ll find out, and you’ll look bad. So read it all. There may will be a pop quiz on it later. Goatspeed.


Points:

1. Therianthrophy can be rational- one can choose to interpret it rationally.


2. Troughs? Don’t be ridiculous. Therians act human- we just don’t feel fully human. We don’t go around flaunting it. We try to hide it. Why? Not doing so could cost us our jobs, our lives, everything. I’ve heard of other therians getting told they would go to hell (note the lowercase h) for being a therian, or being called a demon-possessed witch. Add a few farmers, one or two pitchforks, a largely defensive weapon of gun, and an angry intolerant fundamentalist pastor and you’ve got a recipe for disaster.


3. We aren’t a cult- we are a philosophy. We feel a connection with our ‘type, we feel the urge to act like them, and on occasion do, if we are startled, for example.


4. We can be of any religion- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, athiest, pagan, humanist, Native American religion, shaman, or, for that matter, any religion.


5. Stop treating us as if we are idiots, or sick. We aren’t. And even if we were, this is supposed to be a polite, respectful environment.


6. Do you really think that we want to be therians? Well, we do, but we didn’t decide to be. We didn’t wake up one morning and say, ‘Gosh, I’ll be a _____.’ We just are.


7. I don’t chase rabbits in public parks. I have no wish for anyone to know. I’m a vegetarian. So don’t act like it’s obvious. It’s not. Far from it. On the outside, I appear to be just like any normal geek (if a geek can be considered normal).


8. We have freedom of speech. This includes the right to howl at the moon- if we want to.


9. GROW UP! Please respect rational viewpoints other than your own on this, even if you don’t think they are rational.


10. Even if it isn’t rational, neither are just about every other feeling you can mention.


11. I never claimed it was scientific. I claimed there could be a scientific explanation. Therefore, it cannot be pseudoscience.


12. There are fish therians, earwig therians, and rabbit therians. The reason there are so many wolves is because the human’s closest social resemblance is to the wolf. Oh, and there are deer therians.


13. The only times we don’t act completely human is at howls. Other than then, you’d never know. Unless we told you. Currently, you are about the only people who know, aside from the other therians on the werelist.


14. We aren’t dysfunctional. I have a fairly good chance of being a zoo design expert when I grow up. Not what you’d expect from a screw-up.


15. Even if I can’t properly defend my position, it is because there are way more of you than of me. Let me get somemore therians here, they might be able to help me with this.


16. Otherkin aren’t actually therians, but are simply related. Therians identify with actual animals. Otherkin are vampires, unicorns, or other fantasy creatures. Otherkin may indeed be a cult, but therianthrophy isn’t. We simply acknowledge that we feel like a particular animal. Otherkin believe that they associate with vampires. Or Norse gods. Which sounds more rational? Give us our own article.


17. Under no circumstances whatsoever would we go around in those silly fursuits. So that picture doesn’t belong here. Oh, and we have nothing to do sex. So links can be followed freely.


18. If therianthrophy was a cult, I wouldn’t be a Jewish-athiest-agnostic. I am, therefore it is not a cult. I also know an evangelacial Christian wolf-therian. The Christian group he is part of knows he is, in his words, ‘a werewolf.’ They have no problem with it. If it was a cult, they would have a problem with it.


19. It is a well documented mental phenomenon that people may act wolf-like. It is called something along the lines of lycanthrophy. It isn’t much of a stretch to assume that mild cases could be therianthrophy. It also isn’t much of a stretch to assume that the same thing could apply to other animals, especially since a similar condition exists for people who have the same connection with cats.


20. I’m cheetah-wolf, not wolf-cheetah (the cheetah side’s dominent).


21. I was kidding about being Vulcan. I meant the rational and irrational sides of me. Please remove the Vulcan reference from the otherkin article.


22. Some of you here have been being extremely rude towards me. Next person who calls me insane/crazy/faker/cult member/really illogical/stupid may or may not get banned for 30-seconds. Depends on my mood and exactly what you said. Currently, I’m being more tolerant than you are. This would be for the same reason that if I acted like you are acting towards me towards, say atheists or women, I would get banned or at the very least, mobbed, and rightly so. I am not insane. Got it? RationalWiki is not a platform to insult unconvential beliefs, assuming they aren’t crazy. Therianthrophy is about as insane as autism. Humor’s fine. Calling us idiots or fakers isn’t. Conservapedia’s for that, not RationalWiki. Calling us idiots or fakers is ‘’’’’not’’’’’ rational in the least. On a side note, did you act this way to you act this way towards evealed as a furry? Do you act this way towards pagans? Not from what I’ve seen.


23. Thank you for reading this monster of a post.


24. Oh, and by the way if you type in 'werelist' into google search, and click on the library link, you can find much better explanations than this. Thank you.


25. One last point: RWW’s gonna have a field day if you keep acting this immature. As a matter of fact, it may be too late, unless you act more respectful. Then you might be able to save your reputation.


26. Last last point: We are not self-marginalizing. If we were, I wouldn’t be planning to go to the University of Honolulu. If so, things would be very different. We’d be more promient, for one. The fact is, the whole point of being a therian as opposed to a furry is that it is an actual mental connection, not just a ‘I like this animal.’ thing, and we do our best to hide it from other people. Furries do not in the same respect we do. They don’t have to actively hide behide a smokescreen. We do. You can’t ‘turn off’ therianthrophy, no matter how hard you want to. If we could, we’d do it, believe me. The whole point is that it is a part of our minds that cannot be controlled. We can choose to act on it or not, but we cannot turn it off. Admittingly, if we don’t exercise it in some way, howling or snarling for example, or doing something our theriotype might do, it comes to the front of our minds, and can drive us nuts. Nuts not being crazy, but nuts in the sense that you can’t stand your brother’s singing while he’s in the shower. It emerges in an M-shift, when we take on the mindset of our ‘type. This doesn’t imply anything supernatural. Instead, it implies a split personality. But instead of having a split personality with a different type of human, we have a split personality with a different type of species. Now, normally we can remember what we did when we M-shift. On occasion, I’ve heard of other therians blacking out, usually when subjected to extreme emotional stimuli. As far as I know, these are the only times when we completely lose control of ourselves.



Finally, and in summation of the summation: WE AREN’T CRAZY!!!!! --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 18:25, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Moar Debates

I don't feel sorry; as I've said, I'm not entirely convinced it's a rational thing and not a religious thing. You of course have full freedom to do what you want to do and be whom you want to be, and if you're happy and functional I'm glad you're happy and functional. All I think we're trying to do is push you to think about it rationally - on that note, vegetarian cheetah/wolf therian doesn't seem to follow - and learn about your beliefs.-Diadochus 18:41, 22 January 2009 (EST)

My diet is not influenced by my therianotype. And I think about it rationally. I am currently theorizing on the possible causes for therianthrophy. Currently, a few include:

1. Irregularities in the brain.

2. Mild lycanthrophy, or the equivalent for a therians therianotype.

3. Something evolutionary.

4. There is the possiblilty that it is completely subjective- unlikely, but possible.

--"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 18:45, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I'd edge towards the subjective explanation - and good there's no fursuits involved. That's... "interesting" business, that.-18:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I highly doubt it is subjective. Otherwise, it wouldn't spontaneously surface with no prior knowledge, as it does with some. I've wondered whether it was just in my mind. Finally, I decided that I was born a therian, but gaining knowledge about therianthrophy triggered something inside of me, 'waking me up,' so to speak. That's when my M-shifts started. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 18:49, 22 January 2009 (EST)

1. Irregularities in the brain. You need to talk to some sort of neuropathologist about this. It's probably not a good idea to self-diagnose "brain irregularities."

2. Mild lycanthrophy, or the equivalent for a therians therianotype. Don't be stupid. There's no such a thing.

3. Something evolutionary. You need to talk to an evolutionary biologist about this. The idea that modern humans contain somehow the necessary structures to emulate the thinking/behaviour/instincts of creatures that they did not evolve from would have serious implications for our understanding of evolution.

4.There is the possiblilty that it is completely subjective- unlikely, but possible. My money is on this one. TheoryOfPractice 21:05, 22 January 2009 (EST)

TOP, I'd like to point out that in many ways, therianthrophy resembles autism. As for mild lycanthrophy, I didn't mean shapeshifting- I meant the mental condition, which is a well established fact. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:07, 22 January 2009 (EST)

But the mental condition is defined as one of delusion. See WP:clinical lycanthropy. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:14, 22 January 2009 (EST)
So? We aren't deluded. But it could be related. And by mild, it wouldn't be a delusion, just a feeling of strong connection. So it would mimic lycanthropy. It could be lycanthropy, just extremely minor. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:17, 22 January 2009 (EST)
CUR, you have to bring something to the debate that you didn't 1. get from someone else who participates in this behaviour or 2. pull out of your own ass. You want us to believe that this has serious ties to autism or brain structures or evolutionary biology and isn't just a bunch of kids playing pretend? Fine, we're all pretty open minded. But saying all these things without a shred of evidence is getting you no where. I wrote z bunch of stuff above trying to engage with the implications of what happens if this turns out to be legit--would we need to change the way we think about this "condition" like we've changed/are changing the ways in which we think about gender and sexuality? So I'm obviously open to the possibility--but I need more than made-up vegetarian wollf-cheetah-boys to go on. Bring us proper scientific evidence, or stuff from social theorists that talks about humanism as a construct and otherkin-ness as a challenge to that construct; do something besides say "'cause I say so" over and over again. TheoryOfPractice 21:31, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I told you! I told you! Actually ask another therian! I told you where to find them! I even asked them to come here! Surely you could be bothered to go and ask them! For Darwin's sake! And the fact is that science doesn't know everything. As I said, therianthrophy has not been properly studied, though I would love the opertunnity to study it. --"ConservapediaUndergroundTransistoris the chief bickerer 21:35, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Great--I say "bring me something that isn't just someone who participates in this " and you say "Actually ask another therian." Well argued, there. TheoryOfPractice 21:42, 22 January 2009 (EST)

"I decided that I was born a therian, but gaining knowledge about therianthrophy triggered something inside of me, 'waking me up,' so to speak" I personally think this sums the whole thing up. CUR is clearly socially awkward, the online "therian community" where welcoming to him and so he began to identify with them. This is how most people get into religion or a subculture, they feel socially isolated and so join a group that is welcoming of them. I don't think there are any real therians just people who share and identity so as meet some of their basic social needs. - User \pi 21:51, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I think you've got it exactly right, but keep in mind that otherkinity doesn't just provide a refuge for the socially awkward, it also provides an explanation. Awkwardness is both celebrated and rationalized away. "Of course you don't fit in. They're just humans, and you're part animal or have an animal soul, etc." It turns the awkwardness into a point of pride. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 22:21, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I hadn't thought of the rationalising of the social awkwardness bit. That would aid in the memeplex replication even after the original proponent of the idea had left the group. - User \pi 22:27, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Being nice

I think the above explanation of Therianism is probably the most rational one could come to - love bombing, rationalizing awkwardness, etc. - but I think it's important for CUR to understand that, at least for me, I sneak no judgment into that except a recommendation that you evaluate this group from arm's length. Also, although people are calling you "awkward," note that (I'll speak for myself at least) everyone here has been socially awkward, at one point or another, or on a continuing basis. This is the nature of the human condition, maturity, and all those good things.-Diadochus 22:32, 22 January 2009 (EST)

I agree. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly didn't mean "awkward" as an insult and I apologize if it was taken as such. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 22:43, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I don't think it was either I'm just preempting, from an excess of caution  :).-Diadochus 22:44, 22 January 2009 (EST)

It has come to my attention that other therians should be called here? For testimony of our beliefs? For what? For whom? I don't think any of are coming here for approval or to prove ourselves. I was asked here to give logical evidence. Well, there isn't any. There is no evidence that there is a God, and I'm a Christian, I just know he's there I believe he's there. I also believe that I have a soul and a spirit. I believe that my spirit is all wolf. I believe and that is enough fact for me. It is a debate and always will be one that no one person can make another belief. A fight as old as religion and science, it is religion and science! Be mean about it, be mealy-mouthed, you will get no where with me and if any other therians know any better you won't get anywhere with them either. There is no explaining this to the close-minded and that's just what half of the people "WE CRAZY" are being.- ForeverChagrin

Nobody is having a go at you, so don't automatically take a victim stance. Most of us never heard about this until the other day and we are naturally sceptical people. I find non material explanations for things a little hard to swallow so all this animal soul stuff sound like woo to me, especially when the explanations that don't rely on mystical wolf spirits are a lot simpler. - User \pi 00:10, 23 January 2009 (EST)

More

Comment moved from talk:therian

I'm Anuolf, I'm a moderator at a therian forum. I understand your skepticism, and I encourage it. Should any of you have questions after my comment, please feel free to bring them to my attention. I've been in the therian community for 8-9 years, while I'm not the most experienced, nor the most knowledgeable I will do my best to give you as accurate information on therianthropy as I can. I only ask that you will be patient and read it carefully. So here we go.

Therianthropy, consists of two Greek words. Therios meaning beast or animal; Anthropos meaning man. But really, therianthropy is just a label, just a name to bring people of like-minds together. On a basic level it's a term to describe someone who has a deeper connection to a certain animal than just being a favorite or most awesome. In fact, therians don't choose their theriosides, like those of the furry community commonly do [some changing it frequently]. Ask 10 therians what therianthropy means, and you'll most likely get multiple answers from each. You have people who claim it's something spiritual [such as a connection with an animal spirit within], others claim it's a mental abnormality, and others [like myself] have species dysphoria [it can be compared to gender dysphoria or transgender]. There are many other reasons, but I feel it best not to get into too much at the moment.

While it may be CUR's explanation, a situation of multiple personalities is not likely to be common amongst others in the community. Does that make it any less of a valid theory? No. I don't agree with CUR's way of explaining therianthropy to you all, because a few over-generalizations have taken place. Anyway, a person who takes up the label of therianthrope is someone who has a strong spiritual or mental relationship, or a physical connection to a certain animal. Sometimes specifics cannot be found or understood, so many simply feel canine, or feline, or like some sort of big cat, etc. Could it be a simple thing as the human brain being miswired during development? Possibly. Could it be the human brain "reverting" to a degree to a primal stage? Possibly. There is no answer other than "possibly" to any of those questions. There have not been any scientific studies done on the therianthrope community to have any other answer. It's because of this lack of scientific study that people often disregard our beliefs/thoughts/feelings as something from fantasy or fairy tales or just wishful thinking. It hasn't be the first time, nor will it be the last. I encourage any questions, comments, concerns, etc that any of you may have. — Unsigned, by: Anuolf / talk / contribs

Hi Anouf. I can see problems in terms of trying to study therianthropy scientifically, in that the hypothesis is so vague (i.e. therians themselves disagree on what sort of connection they have with animals) and the nature of the evidence is so subjective (i.e. feeling like in some way you're an animal). Ultimately, since it rests on internal convictions and emotions, it's neither verifiable nor falsifiable. Physically therians remain human, something that is testable. If they claim to be animals spiritually or emotionally, there is no way of testing, proving or disproving that. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:51, 22 January 2009 (EST)
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