Debate:Seth Rogan and Date Rape
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Is abortion okay of the fetus consents to it? --[[User:Electrified mocha chinchilla|<font color="#2B547E">'''e|m|c'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Electrified mocha chinchilla|<font color="#387C44"> '''[TALK]''' </font>]]</sup> 12:27, 21 April 2009 (EDT) | Is abortion okay of the fetus consents to it? --[[User:Electrified mocha chinchilla|<font color="#2B547E">'''e|m|c'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Electrified mocha chinchilla|<font color="#387C44"> '''[TALK]''' </font>]]</sup> 12:27, 21 April 2009 (EDT) | ||
| − | + | Relevancy FAIL. {{User:Phantom Hoover/sig0}} 12:30, 21 April 2009 (EDT) | |
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Revision as of 16:30, 21 April 2009
If this gets going, which it may, I'll be happy to move it over to the debate space (hell, I created the template, I might as well use it huh?) Anyway. I just wanted to engage our base on a simple question: Have feminist gone a little too far? Here's why I ask. I was browsing through the intertubes, and happened to find this blog. Basic story, feminist blog bitching (no pun intended) about a scene in Seth Rogan's new movie Observe and Report. Here's where the question comes in.... WHY??? With all the real issues confronting a modern woman (or enlightened man) why do you focus so much energy and rage at a stupid little pissant movie that nobody will remember a year from now? I mean seriously, shouldn't that energy be spent at much more important targets? SirChuckBCall the FBI 00:38, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Isn't your question really more about the direction rather than whether it has gone to far? The are still honour killings, female circumcision and places that don't have women's suffrage. It seems to me that the feminist movement would rather stay at home a pick at the last few thing, than deal with much bigger problems abroad. - User
00:50, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- What Pi said.
- As to "feminists going too far," they did that quite a while ago, somewhere during the second wave, when they apparently forgot that sex and rape are not synonyms (and ditto with misogyny and capitalism). With the third wave this is not so much of a problem, but there are still the hangers-on.
ListenerXTalkerX 00:53, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- (EC)SirChuck--on the one hand, you're right: why worry about a cinematic depiction of date rape when there's *real* date rape, and lots of other horrible things going on. And without bothering to see the scene in question, I don't know how the act is portrayed in the movie. That being said, even little pissant movies that nobody'll remember a year from now matter because they contribute to a discursive framework that normalises the systematic abuse and mistreatment of half of the world's population, from FGM in Sudan to economic abuse to the fact that one in three American women (last stats I heard) can expect to be the victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. While maybe this movie isn't as bad as those things are. what it does,--or at least what I think the blogger is saying it does--is to excuse those sort of things. Has feminism gone too far? Nonsense. When women are no longer systematically targeted for abuse for no other reason than because they are women, come talk to me--until then, it hasn't gone nearly far enough. TheoryOfPractice 00:55, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Yeah, sexual assault. Any of you "guys" ever have a larger, stronger woman who was really excited trying to stick their thing in you when you really sorta just wanted to go home (I haven't, but do I want to argue I am absolutely innocent of the other side of that)? And that's here in the enlightened West. I don't see a problem with someone "picking their target" - maybe there are bigger problems (there are), but everyone has their own energy and life and focus, etc. ħuman
01:05, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- (EC)But here;s the problem TOP, by fighting the good fight against Seth Rogan and his tyranny, how do they help their cause? The message it sends out is "we care about women everywhere, but it's more important to hate Seth Rogan." What good does this do their cause? and I would also argue against the idea that this "contribute(s) to a discursive framework that normalises the systematic abuse." This is Hollywood fiction we're talking about here. I don't watch Gone with the Wind and go try to light Atlanta on fire.... I don't watch Ironman and pretend I'm a superhero (ok, actually I do). People don't take their cues from movies, movies take their cues from the people.... and not having seen the movie, but knowing the premise, I hardly think the characters are the kind you want to emulate. SirChuckBCall the FBI 01:11, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Reply to Human. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to argue against fighting this sort of thing, but even in our country, where the best defense for a rape is to attack the victim, where mainstream news personalities (Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Glen Beck) still argue that women who dress in short skirts and halter tops are asking for it, in a country where religious groups still argue that women should be denied access to birth control, this is what you're going to focus on? Really? By the way, I have the same issues with Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and most black leadership. SirChuckBCall the FBI 01:16, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Yeah, sexual assault. Any of you "guys" ever have a larger, stronger woman who was really excited trying to stick their thing in you when you really sorta just wanted to go home (I haven't, but do I want to argue I am absolutely innocent of the other side of that)? And that's here in the enlightened West. I don't see a problem with someone "picking their target" - maybe there are bigger problems (there are), but everyone has their own energy and life and focus, etc. ħuman
- (EC)SirChuck--on the one hand, you're right: why worry about a cinematic depiction of date rape when there's *real* date rape, and lots of other horrible things going on. And without bothering to see the scene in question, I don't know how the act is portrayed in the movie. That being said, even little pissant movies that nobody'll remember a year from now matter because they contribute to a discursive framework that normalises the systematic abuse and mistreatment of half of the world's population, from FGM in Sudan to economic abuse to the fact that one in three American women (last stats I heard) can expect to be the victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. While maybe this movie isn't as bad as those things are. what it does,--or at least what I think the blogger is saying it does--is to excuse those sort of things. Has feminism gone too far? Nonsense. When women are no longer systematically targeted for abuse for no other reason than because they are women, come talk to me--until then, it hasn't gone nearly far enough. TheoryOfPractice 00:55, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- The answer is yes, but you have to be sure to differentiate between groups. First-wave/liberal feminism != third-wave radical "patriarchal society is constructed entirely on the phallus" feminism. A few nutjob critics bitching about absurd minutiae do not represent the whole of the feminist landscape; they're just the loudest (often because they have academic careers to prop up).

01:22, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I forgot to sign my intrusion, guys. ħuman
01:59, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I forgot to sign my intrusion, guys. ħuman
- Give it another 50 years Sir Chuck. there's a lot of Wimmin[don't you just hate it when they do that?] out there who aren't for women as much as they're agin men. There's also a lot of us who're for people. There's always extremists whatever the subject, but the moderates generally win in the end. The more attention they're given, the more they like it; just ignore them. I don't think they have much following among the rest of us; we tend to laugh at them.

and marmite 04:40, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- "who aren't for women as much as they're against men" - Definitely, can't agree with that phrase more. That's the big problem with a lot of protests. They have plenty to strive against but nothing to strive for, which makes them very short lived and not very successful unless you count success by the amount of pissing off and victimisation they cause. Examples being Conservatives (yes, the ones with the capital C) basically hating liberals more than liking being conservative or environmental protestors who just like being shouty and anti-corporate rather than being for postitive environmental measures or wanting to learn about and raise awareness of genuine solutions. ArmondikoVmoral 05:19, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- That's because protesting is easier and more fun. Most people would rather (eg) wave teabags in a tax protest than sit down and work out a fair, workable tax system. Totnesmartin 05:48, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- yup! it's like your average interweb vandal or graffiti idiot: it's so easy to bugger up someone elses work but actually creating something yourself takes time & intelligence.

and marmite 06:11, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- yup! it's like your average interweb vandal or graffiti idiot: it's so easy to bugger up someone elses work but actually creating something yourself takes time & intelligence.
- That's because protesting is easier and more fun. Most people would rather (eg) wave teabags in a tax protest than sit down and work out a fair, workable tax system. Totnesmartin 05:48, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Of course one trouble is that they (the ardent anti-menists) tend to give the rest of us a bad name. People think that if you're a dyke you must hate men. I don't - I find them quite decorative & excellent companions when quaffing the odd glass of Guinness & even have one or two models of certain body parts among my treasured possessions as I suppose most women do.

and marmite 05:27, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- "who aren't for women as much as they're against men" - Definitely, can't agree with that phrase more. That's the big problem with a lot of protests. They have plenty to strive against but nothing to strive for, which makes them very short lived and not very successful unless you count success by the amount of pissing off and victimisation they cause. Examples being Conservatives (yes, the ones with the capital C) basically hating liberals more than liking being conservative or environmental protestors who just like being shouty and anti-corporate rather than being for postitive environmental measures or wanting to learn about and raise awareness of genuine solutions. ArmondikoVmoral 05:19, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
While there are maybe bigger issues in modern feminism that ought to be priorities, I don't really see how this logic holds up. Consider it in any other sphere. If a new chemical factory opened up that only dumped a small amount of dioxin into the waterways, would it be unreasonable to call attention and outrage to it, even though global warming dwarfs it as a concern? Or if a man was beaten brutally by police officers, is it unreasonable to picket that police station, even though extraordinary rendition is a far more egregious abuse of authority? Most people would not think so.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 06:34, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- DATE RAPE HAPPENS. Women who live in the American Society still have very difficult times explaining to cops why being drunk is *not* an excuse for being raped. Women who are passed out (as was the case in this movie) are routinely "made love" to, and if/when they "come to" during sex, and say do not scream, kick, or slap - men say "they wanted it". Absurd and obscene that we still think of women as objects for putting dicks into. I'm horney, she's passed out. problem solved. Feminism has not "gone too far", it hasn't gone far enough. In a very real way, sex DOES = rape, because many women in America (much less the world) are powerless to say no. They think they need the man's financial support, emotional support, or love. and without saying "yes" all the time, they know the man will walk out. Sex is a way men control women, in these situations. This does not mean all sex is rape, it means the argument itself has validity when you understand it in the context of power dynamics.--
En attendant Godot"«Her intense and pure religiousness took the form of her having equal faith in the existence of another world and in the impossibility of comprehending it in terms of earthly life. V.Nabokov» 06:36, 21 April 2009 (EDT) (edit conflict)
- I'll risk prodding the beast even further by asking exactly who the "we" is that thinks of women as holes to stick dicks into. I can't really see any RWians acting that way, at the worst it's just lambasting some eager Feminists bloggers for blowing a quick joke out of all proportion. ArmondikoVmoral 08:56, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I thank everyone for their well thought out answers, it reminds me why I stick around here :-) Now to answer some points. First, to Tom, I'm not arguing against fighting these things, but rather arguing how they do it. Attacking a Seth Rogan because you found a joke to be in poor taste is not, repeat NOT going to win anybody over. You come off as humorless and petty. For the record, no, I don't think the joke is particularly funny or clever, but I understand the point. Your two points don't really hold up either. The difference between dumping toxin or police brutality is that each one has a measurable negative effect. You can argue that about movies, but I would disagree and I think you'd be hard to find good evidence. However, if you were protesting the dumping of toxins into a waterway by attacking Family Guy because they did a joke about it, there's your problem. Or if you protesting Police Brutality by picketing comedy central because RENO 911 plays it for laughs all the time, you've got a problem. They're not attacking the problem, they're attacking a stupid movie for something that is barely related. To Godot, I think you're too far into your cause to step back. Nobody is arguing for rape, I swear. Never once in my life hace I protested for more rape. Nor am I excusing rape because the woman was drunk or "asking for it." I am simply pointing out that the way to fight the problem is not by nailing Seth Rogan to the wall. SirChuckBCall the FBI 11:15, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I'll risk prodding the beast even further by asking exactly who the "we" is that thinks of women as holes to stick dicks into. I can't really see any RWians acting that way, at the worst it's just lambasting some eager Feminists bloggers for blowing a quick joke out of all proportion. ArmondikoVmoral 08:56, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- DATE RAPE HAPPENS. Women who live in the American Society still have very difficult times explaining to cops why being drunk is *not* an excuse for being raped. Women who are passed out (as was the case in this movie) are routinely "made love" to, and if/when they "come to" during sex, and say do not scream, kick, or slap - men say "they wanted it". Absurd and obscene that we still think of women as objects for putting dicks into. I'm horney, she's passed out. problem solved. Feminism has not "gone too far", it hasn't gone far enough. In a very real way, sex DOES = rape, because many women in America (much less the world) are powerless to say no. They think they need the man's financial support, emotional support, or love. and without saying "yes" all the time, they know the man will walk out. Sex is a way men control women, in these situations. This does not mean all sex is rape, it means the argument itself has validity when you understand it in the context of power dynamics.--
Nailing Rogan to the wall is not the solution to rape, I agree with you there. But in this case, nailing Rogan to the wall does seem to be something to do if you want to fight against the propagation of the idea that fucking a girl who is too drunk to give consent =/= rape, which is what Rogan seems to be doing in the exchange you pointed us to. TheoryOfPractice 11:19, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I highly doubt that was what Rogan was doing, even unconscously. The charecter in the movie is a bad guy, going bad things. This is another bad thing. We can read whatever we want into the movie, but I highly doubt Rogan made the scene to endorse date rape. Z3rotalk 11:32, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- "SETH ROGEN: when we’re having sex (note:they're not. He's raping her. this is the key to the problem: Rogan is equating rape with "having sex." They're not the same thing) and she’s unconscious like you can literally feel the audience thinking, like, how the fuck are they going to make this okay: . . . And then she says, like, the one thing that makes it all okay: "Why are you stopping, motherfucker?." So yeah, he's written and defended a scenario in which women can apparently consent to their own rape. Big problem. TheoryOfPractice 11:37, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Two things; first, the charecter in the movie is a bad guy. When you see the bad guy kill someone in a movie, you shouldn't think "wow, killing people is cool". Second, if you talked with the people who made the movie, I'd have to think they were just trying to make an awkward joke. I can't imagine any of them actually meant to endorse date rape. Which is the point; going after a film that made a lame joke is not the most productive way to get a message out. Z3rotalk 11:43, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I've said this before: the problem for me, is not with the scene in the movie--it boils down to Rogan saying "we're having sex." not "I'm (more fairly, "my character is")raping her." In Rogan's mind, what's going on long after the fact is sex, not rape? Why? because we've normalised the idea that fucking drunk girls who can't give consent is not rape. And he then makes it worse by conceiving that it's possible for a woman to give consent under the circumstances he's describing. Problem not with movie. Problem in Rogan's understanding of what rape is...TheoryOfPractice 11:52, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Just to throw one more quick thought in about this topic in general, calling all sex rape is not going to win over anyone to the feminist cause, and in fact may cause people who would have been supporters to be against it. Something else to consider, regarding the message. Z3rotalk 11:22, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Maybe. But pretending that unequal societal power relationships are completely detached from the realm of sexuality, and ignoring the fact that sexuality is one of the things that works to (ahem) reproduce those uneven power relationships is not going to help anyone either.TheoryOfPractice 11:25, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Just to throw one more quick thought in about this topic in general, calling all sex rape is not going to win over anyone to the feminist cause, and in fact may cause people who would have been supporters to be against it. Something else to consider, regarding the message. Z3rotalk 11:22, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I've said this before: the problem for me, is not with the scene in the movie--it boils down to Rogan saying "we're having sex." not "I'm (more fairly, "my character is")raping her." In Rogan's mind, what's going on long after the fact is sex, not rape? Why? because we've normalised the idea that fucking drunk girls who can't give consent is not rape. And he then makes it worse by conceiving that it's possible for a woman to give consent under the circumstances he's describing. Problem not with movie. Problem in Rogan's understanding of what rape is...TheoryOfPractice 11:52, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Two things; first, the charecter in the movie is a bad guy. When you see the bad guy kill someone in a movie, you shouldn't think "wow, killing people is cool". Second, if you talked with the people who made the movie, I'd have to think they were just trying to make an awkward joke. I can't imagine any of them actually meant to endorse date rape. Which is the point; going after a film that made a lame joke is not the most productive way to get a message out. Z3rotalk 11:43, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- "SETH ROGEN: when we’re having sex (note:they're not. He's raping her. this is the key to the problem: Rogan is equating rape with "having sex." They're not the same thing) and she’s unconscious like you can literally feel the audience thinking, like, how the fuck are they going to make this okay: . . . And then she says, like, the one thing that makes it all okay: "Why are you stopping, motherfucker?." So yeah, he's written and defended a scenario in which women can apparently consent to their own rape. Big problem. TheoryOfPractice 11:37, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
(unindent)But the problem is a marketing one; if people don't listen, you're message is not going to get out. Yes, I understand the problem, and I sympothize, but going about it wrong will not help anyone. Z3rotalk 11:30, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I've said this before, but during this scene, from the clips I have seen of it, Anna Faris (the girl in question) is passed out in her own vomit (a pause for brain scrubbing) and Rogan, a seriously deranged Mall Cop, because having sex with her. I hardly think this is a ringing endorsment. SirChuckBCall the FBI 11:40, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- No--but Rogan's comments after the fact--see above--if not a "ringing endorsement," are a sleazy attempt to justify the unjustifiable and therefore present a reasonable target. If he had, in the interview, spoken about the scene in terms of "rape," you might have an issue. But he didn't--he equated the act with consensual sex, thereby, in a small way, reproducing the idea that it's cool to fuck drunk girls passed out in their own vomit. TheoryOfPractice 11:45, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- This goes back to basic decency; anyone willing to fuck a drunk girl, passed out in her own vomit, is not going to stop just because Seth Rogan said so, or do it because Seth Rogan said so. Seth Rogan is not the problem. Z3rotalk 11:50, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- No, this goes back to the creation of discursive frameworks and the ways in which certain kinds of speech are possible, and work to reproduce power relationships. Rogan can say what he said because it's still conceivable that a drunk woman can consent to being fucked. By saying it, Rogan reproduces the conditions for that behaviour being possible. TheoryOfPractice 11:54, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- This goes back to basic decency; anyone willing to fuck a drunk girl, passed out in her own vomit, is not going to stop just because Seth Rogan said so, or do it because Seth Rogan said so. Seth Rogan is not the problem. Z3rotalk 11:50, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- No--but Rogan's comments after the fact--see above--if not a "ringing endorsement," are a sleazy attempt to justify the unjustifiable and therefore present a reasonable target. If he had, in the interview, spoken about the scene in terms of "rape," you might have an issue. But he didn't--he equated the act with consensual sex, thereby, in a small way, reproducing the idea that it's cool to fuck drunk girls passed out in their own vomit. TheoryOfPractice 11:45, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
EZ edit
This is not about power relationships, or the speech that enables them. It's about what we are or are not reading into the scene from a (at best) mediocre movie. Stanley Fish would love this discussion. To me, the scene was uncomfortable at best, and I did not take away from the movie that "rape is okay". In fact, to me, I thought the opposite; "I can't believe they tried to make a joke out of it". But by making it a bigger thing than it is, you give power to it, rather than take power away. Whatever your intent (or anyone against it), all you've done is to give the movie more publicity. Z3rotalk 12:01, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- I'm not sure reverse psychology will work. --e|m|c [TALK] 12:13, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Ferfuxsake, Zero, how many times do i have to say it? Are you not reading my posts? Nothing to do with movie. Movie not matter. What matter is what Rogan say in interview. Rogan say in interview his character having sex with girl. Rogan character not having sex. Rogan character raping girl. Rogan think what is rape is actually sex. What people say matters--in Rogan's little mind, long after the movie was made, what was going on represents consensual sex. That he can say that speaks volumes about the place of women in society. TheoryOfPractice 12:18, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Last I check, any nutjob can say anything; we still have free speech. That you are mad at free speech is a different issue. A nutjob can hold a "We like rape" rally, and that's totally legal. As for the idea behind whether he thinks its rape or consensual sex, does that matter? Who cares what some actor thinks? Or are you worried because you think Seth Rogan represents mainstream America? Z3rotalk 12:23, 21 April 2009 (EDT) (EC) by the way, no one said he didn't have free speech. but neither do the feminists who call foul!
- Ferfuxsake, Zero, how many times do i have to say it? Are you not reading my posts? Nothing to do with movie. Movie not matter. What matter is what Rogan say in interview. Rogan say in interview his character having sex with girl. Rogan character not having sex. Rogan character raping girl. Rogan think what is rape is actually sex. What people say matters--in Rogan's little mind, long after the movie was made, what was going on represents consensual sex. That he can say that speaks volumes about the place of women in society. TheoryOfPractice 12:18, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- That he can say that speaks volumes about the place of women in society. No, it doesn't. That he can say that tells us ours is a free society. That he does say it speaks only as much about the place of women in society as it can be generalized. Given that I'd be hard-pressed to find a friend, peer, or colleague who wouldn't consider it rape, I don't think it can be generalized nearly as far as you think (but much, much further than any of us would like).

12:25, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- Zero, the issue is not the movie. there are rapes in movies all the time. There are murders, and abuse sitations, etc. This argument is that the person playing the character **when discussing the film** tries to 'excuse' the character by saying "well it wasn't *really* that bad, cause she did give her concent in teh end". No, she didn't. again, it's not the film. it's the actor's *personal* understanding of rape, of consent, and of power relationsihps. (wfg)(EC) by the way, no one said he didn't have free speech. but neither do the feminists who call foul! (another ec)
- Okay, so you're saying that you don't agree with Seth Rogan's portrayal of the situation; so what? He's clearly trying to avoid this whole problem in the first place, albeit unelegantly. If it's just sex, there's no controversy. It's a PR dodge, nothing more. Reading further into it says more about you than Seth Rogan. Z3rotalk 12:29, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
- That he can say that speaks volumes about the place of women in society. No, it doesn't. That he can say that tells us ours is a free society. That he does say it speaks only as much about the place of women in society as it can be generalized. Given that I'd be hard-pressed to find a friend, peer, or colleague who wouldn't consider it rape, I don't think it can be generalized nearly as far as you think (but much, much further than any of us would like).
Question
Is abortion okay of the fetus consents to it? --e|m|c [TALK] 12:27, 21 April 2009 (EDT) Relevancy FAIL. Bastard wisest Hoover! 12:30, 21 April 2009 (EDT) ??? Z3rotalk 12:30, 21 April 2009 (EDT)