Debate:Why do good?

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It's interesting though that religious people and athiests typically share the the moral codes of the day - and that both try to retrofit their improved moral codes into their philosophies. Those of a religious bent claim that whatever holy book they hold dear "really" says that we should give equal right to homosexuals or ban slavery or whatever <small>OK, so some of them may take a bit longer to catch up</small> ; humanists claim that humanism brings them to the same conclusions.  But, as I said, I suspect that it's just a human social development which people then interpret in terms of their existing beliefs.--[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|<sup>Spring is sprung!</sup>]] 11:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 
It's interesting though that religious people and athiests typically share the the moral codes of the day - and that both try to retrofit their improved moral codes into their philosophies. Those of a religious bent claim that whatever holy book they hold dear "really" says that we should give equal right to homosexuals or ban slavery or whatever <small>OK, so some of them may take a bit longer to catch up</small> ; humanists claim that humanism brings them to the same conclusions.  But, as I said, I suspect that it's just a human social development which people then interpret in terms of their existing beliefs.--[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|<sup>Spring is sprung!</sup>]] 11:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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==A cynic writes==
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The question is very badly framed because it fails to define what is meant by "good" and even defining it as "something that is beneficial to the rest of human society" lacks adequate boundary conditions and doe not distinguish between "moral" and "ethical". First of all the universe is neither "good" nor "evil", it just "is". Good and evil are moral concepts which arise from the fact that we are (in general) social animals. For me, the primary assumption is that biologically we have an evolutionary imperative to promote the continued existence of our genes - the so-called "selfish gene" - but we also have an instinct for self-preservation and the balance between these two is the dichotomy. Social animals like bees and ants have a strong sense of society and will sacrifice themselves to defend and ensure the existence of the colony. Humans evolved from small familial groups (like we see with higher primates) where a hunter/gatherer existence was the norm into large urbanised groups. Different behaviours are required in these two settings because the sense of community in each are on different scales. Humans have evolved a strong sense of group identity - encompassing family, gender, locale, nationality, sexual orientation, physical appearance, culture, religion, social class, wealth, occupation, sports teams and even name (people will often sympathetically identify with someone who has the same first name as themselves) - so how far we go in identifying '''our''' group affects what we perceive as being "good" or "evil". So (to invoke Godwin), Hitler may be considered "evil" on one scale but did he think that he was doing evil or was he doing something which he thought was for the good of Germany or the Aryan race? I have certainly noticed differences in attitudes to what is right to wrong between urban and rural communities.
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<To be continued, do not reply just yet>

Revision as of 11:48, 15 February 2011

Many atheists cite secular humanism as the basis for their morality; but I have never heard a compelling secular reason for why anyone should be moral or do good. "You should do good." "Why?" "Because it's good to do good." That's a circular argument, and it has no rational basis. Or, worse: "You should do good." "Why?" "Because it's beneficial to human society." But why should we care about benefiting human society? "Because it's good." Another circular argument.

In fact, if we choose to define "good" merely as "something that is beneficial to the rest of human society", would it not be pertinent to kill off people in aged-care facilities? After all, most of them are—for all intents and purposes—wasting human society's time and resources, and it's not as if every one of them is still benefiting human society. I do not know a person who would fail to call that murder. But why is that? And, more to the point, why is murder wrong?

I have heard an argument that runs along these lines. In the past, it says, those humans who worked out a kind of mutual agreement centred around respect for each other and each other's property tended to live longer than those who constantly attacked each other out of greed; and so, the argument goes, natural selection has given us human societies that are based on mutual respect and trust. Now, I don't agree with that argument, but I'm not here to debunk it. Rather, I want to ask a very simple question: If you were in a position of power, and there was no possibility of people enacting revenge against you, why would you not murder and rape and pillage at will?

Some may ask, "What is this, you only do good because God's watching you?" No; but that is an irrelevant question. I am not concerned with religion in the context of this debate. I am interested only in how those who don't believe in an objective standard of good justify (a) why they themselves do "good" and (b) why they insist that others do "good". Thomas Larsen (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Possibly paranoia that it could come back to you. I could go on, but I make negative input on a person's mind sound like new age crap.--Thanatos (talk) 03:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Karma, perhaps, or superstition? But that presupposes the existence of the supernatural, and hence it is not a secular rationale. Thomas Larsen (talk) 03:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Why not? ТyAn furry, yet discombobulate mitten? 03:39, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Secularism, by definition, is separate from religion. Any argument for doing good that depends on religious considerations is, therefore, not secular. Or were you asking "Why not?" in response to another question? Thomas Larsen (talk) 03:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Why not do "good" ТyAn Satanic, yet deter cable? 03:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
To which I shall retort, "Why not do evil?" I think you will agree with me when I say that "good" things are a subset of all the things we could do; why should we limit ourselves to that subset? I mean, it would be convenient if I could rob the bank. Thomas Larsen (talk) 03:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Very well. Have fun. Also, in evolutionary terms altruism also makes it more likely for the species to survive. Only a few people (cough Ayn Rand cough) consider altruism to be bad. Most "good" acts such as community service, teaching, OSS programming, helping others, etc. are altruistic.ТyTalk. 04:04, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
(I will. Actually, I've been trying to program a robot to do the job for me, on the grounds that I can claim it was acting under its own free will... unfortunately, I haven't had very much success yet. It keeps crashing into things.) See, why should I—why should you—care about what is good for the rest of the species? Let's assume, for a moment, that altruism arose as a product of evolution by natural selection. That tells me how I became altruistic, maybe. But it does not tell me why I should be altruistic. Should I be altruistic because it's good? Um, yeah. Thomas Larsen (talk) 04:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
A bank robbing robot?! Hmmm. You will need to get through the vault door and the guards... machine vision was a problem back when I worked across from the bot lab. Oh, anyway, back on topic. I would have to say that humans make their own morality, whichever feels best to them. If you feel like robbing a bank with a robot, have fun. Unfortunately, not everyone will feel that way. And they will likely try to enact legislation getting rid of the poor robots. And I like robots. ТyTalk. 04:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

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But, if humans concoct their own morality, why should we imprison murderers? Rapists? Bank robbers? What if they thought, on the spur of the moment, that it was perfectly right and good to murder, to rape, to rob? I mean, it's easy to say that human beings make their own morality until someone steals your car or mugs you in the street. Thomas Larsen (talk) 04:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Let me draw another analogy here about the flaws inherent in the argument that humans make their own morality. Suppose someone close to you—your significant other, your child, your parents—were murdered by a notorious serial killer; and, when he was eventually tracked down and taken to court, you begged the judge to have him imprisoned for life. And the judge merely sighed, sipped at a cup of coffee, and said, "Well, you know, I'm feeling in a good mood today. And this guy was feeling really frustrated at the time; I think that murder is okay if you're feeling really frustrated. You know, I'm going to let him go free. But you! You who forced me to get out of my warm bed this morning and come to this court—it is you who will be imprisoned for life!" With that, you are handcuffed and led off to a cell. I think you would be outraged, and rightly so. Why? Why is it not okay for a judge to make their own morality and apply it to others? Thomas Larsen (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no objective morality, because morality is a construct of society. Yes, humans concoct their own morality, but it is immensely more complicated than you make it out to be, and it is constantly evolving along with society. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to actually think of an example of objective morality that has been constant throughout human history. A moral absolute is extraordinarily rare. In my opinion, they do not exist. Picon small.pngLiquid Blue 05:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
On what basis can you claim that morality is, and always has been, constantly evolving with society? I'm not saying that it hasn't, simply that we do not have even the slightest scrap of evidence on which to base that assumption. Some might point out, for example, that slavery was widely accepted a couple of centuries ago in the Western world, but that has nothing to do with basic morality and everything to do with application. Certainly, there have been minor moral controversies in the past—birth control comes to mind—but they are trivial whirlpools in a far greater current. Killing has always been a moral matter in humanity, but birth control only became a moral matter comparatively recently, for the simple reason that birth control only became practical comparatively recently.
And, at any rate, why should I obey society's morals if I can disobey them without consequences? What right do you have to enforce them? Thomas Larsen (talk) 05:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
On what basis can you assert that objective morality exists? It's almost like the theism debate. No evidence. Picon small.pngAcer Blue 06:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Ah, but I'm not asserting that objective morality exists—although I think it does, and maybe my bias is showing. Rather, I'm waiting to hear some good secular reasons for why people like you and I should limit ourselves to doing "good" things. I'm not even very concerned about the definition of "good". Let's suppose that our view of good and evil is merely a product of natural selection. Let's suppose that morality has evolved over time, though I don't know of any scientific evidence to suggest that it has. Now, given a particular situation in which there is a "right" thing to do and a "wrong" thing to do, why should I not do the wrong thing if it benefits me personally? Thomas Larsen (talk) 06:13, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Wait - are you asking the question "why should I obey society's morals?", or "where do morals come from such that they hold authority over our actions?" Picon small.pngAcer Blue 06:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm asking "Why do good?" "Why should I obey any kind of morals?" is directly related to that question. Where morals come from might or might not have anything to do with the answer. Thomas Larsen (talk) 06:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
So you're repeatedly asking a loaded & meaningless question. You say you're not asserting that objective morality exists, but your question (why "do good"?) presupposes that it does. WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
How so? The question presupposes that some form of good exists. Whether good is objective or subjective is left undefined. Whether good is local to a particular culture or global to humanity is left undefined. But if we assume that good goes beyond simply what a particular individual wants to do (otherwise, say, rape would be perfectly "good"), then we are left with a problem: why should we do "good"? For instance, why is it not okay to abuse or mistreat someone if you feel like it? Thomas Larsen (talk) 08:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Hold on a moment

I think we're falling into a classic trap: when confronted with a hard question, we can't resist the urge to answer it and marshal the arguments for and against. But I think the question itself is a bit confused, mostly because there are so many concepts it depends on that we don't really have clear pictures of. First, as mentioned above, we have problems with the difference between explanation and justification. If we find an explanation for a particular behavior or stance or morality, is that the same as its justification? Also, what does it even mean for an act to be just or unjust? Secondly, are these concepts of "just" and "good" and "evil" actually inherent properties of the universe, or are they just properties of our mental models of the universe? And how would we make this determination? Could we do it logically or empirically? (That is, is there some underlying moral structure to the universe, or is it just an inaccuracy in our belief systems? And how do we know?) I suspect that we may not be able to answer Thomas Larsen's question until we can answer these. Tetronian you're clueless 04:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to recognize that there are two underlying components to our morality: a, social and cultural conditioning, and b, the evolution of morality, i.e., its biological basis. There are no "first principles," per se, as we are consciously or unconsciously working within the framework of those two things. Without that, these discussions tend to devolve into philoso-babble. (IOW, I agree.) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I think the distinction between the explanation and the justification is a very important one. But I'm not particularly interested in explaining our sense of morality. How we got to where we are is rather irrelevant; why should we care? But the trouble with justification is that it requires a standard to justify against, whether that standard is objective or subjective; and, if that standard is subjective, it also requires justification. Eventually we either have to arrive at an objective standard or accept that we impose unjustifiable limits on ourselves and on other people. Thomas Larsen (talk) 06:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
"How we got here" is definitely not irrelevant to your question. We're not free to choose our morals in any way we please, we're conditioned by our evolutionary inheritance. That doesn't mean that every single moral rule we abide has been hardwired into our brains, but the way in which we construct our moral codices has. This still leaves room for social construction, but guarantees that we'll come to conclusions that are similar enough to allow for peaceful coexistence. Why do good? Because we feel an impulse to do it, and vice versa, an aversion to do evil. You might as well ask "Why breathe?". We just do it because we feel a strong urge to, the rationalizing comes later. Or ask yourself, is the only reason why you're not committing murder and theft fear of being caught or worries about society going downhill? Or is it because you simply don't want to kill or rob your fellow human beings? And how is it possible that people from across very different cultures and ages have mostly agreed on these fundamental principles if there's no underlying biological explanation? Especially when the societal advantages of having such built-in compassionate responses are obvious and it's hard to see how a society lacking them could have survived. If you're really interested in the topic, I recommend Marc D. Hauser's Moral Minds - he concerns himself with finding the systems and principles that produce our moral codes, or as he calls it, our "moral grammar". Röstigraben (talk) 07:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I think "Why should we do good?" (which is the question I'm interested in, hence "Why do good?") and "Why do we do good?" are two very different questions. I think we can agree that human beings are not "good" all the time, but we have this idea that it's best to do "good"—even if we say that "good" is merely what people make it. "Why do we do good?" is an interesting question that can be answered in a variety of different ways, but I don't think it's particularly relevant to the issue of why we should do "good". We do not call someone immoral for refusing to breathe, although we may call him a fool; but we do call someone immoral for refusing to save a fellow human being in dire need, if he was able and would not have placed himself in any significant danger by doing so. I think there is a great danger in defining "good" as "what we feel an impulse to do", although perhaps that is not what you intended. If that were true, practically all criminals would be vindicated.
I'll try to pick up a copy of Moral Minds; it sounds interesting. Thomas Larsen (talk) 07:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
The question of what we should do is also one that isn't answered as a result of some long, deliberative process, but rather after a quick, reflexive judgement. We reflect on them, we discuss them with others, and try to come up with some rules, but they're always designed to accomodate our spontaneous emotional responses. There was a website somewhere that confronted you with a series of moral dilemmas that increased in complexity, and though few had any problems picking the right, or "good", way of acting, it became increasingly hard to justify. And regarding your second point, "good" is simply what the vast majority of people, not all, have an impulse to do. That's how we define the specifics, by broad majority consensus - unanimity is impossible. In our vast societies, there'll always be a few whose moral compass is either lacking or flawed. A serial killer only becomes one because he does not have the usual impulse to help and protect others, but rather wants to hurt them. Unlike normal people, they can't be trusted to act on their impulses, so we lock them away. That doesn't change the fact that most altruistic acts are born from impulses. Röstigraben (talk) 07:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I agree with you that not all moral situations are clear-cut. In my opinion, sometimes there is a "right" answer, but it is not intuitive; and sometimes there are two answers that are equally "right". Such situations are interesting but comparatively infrequent.
Now, if I understood your argument correctly, you're saying that we—acting on our own impulses—have the right to lock away those people who have different impulses from ours, simply because we are in the majority. But who is to say that we have that right? We might as well have pulled it out from thin air! It sounds like the ultimate bully tactic: let us imprison those who are different from us, because we are bigger than they are. If past experience has shown us anything, it is that the majority can be "wrong". Thomas Larsen (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We don't imprison them because they're different, but because they're dangerous. It's collective self-defense, and if we don't have a right to that, then we don't have any, as we'd waive our right to life. People who simply lack the altruistic impulse and don't react to help others in need are also different, but harmless, so we may chastise them, but we wouldn't lock them away for it. Of course the majority will always define what is good and moral, but when we take a look at the broader picture, it becomes a little circular: only societies in which altruists are in the majority could survive anyway, if there's a majority of psychopaths, it would devolve into chaos and unravel. So, by definition, any society that has managed to persist must have a majority-accepted foundation of moral principles that are "good", i.e. conducive to societal well-being. Röstigraben (talk) 08:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
So car thieves are dangerous to society (what sections of society)? That's why we lock them up? Reformed murderers are dangerous to society? That's why we imprison them for life? You're right, we do restrict people because they're dangerous, but we also punish people for doing wrong.
I don't think you're correct in saying that only altruistic societies have any hope of survival. For example, some animals are known to kill others of their own kind to eliminate competition for food—a "greedy", but very practical, act. See, for example, wp:Eagle#Description: "Many species lay two eggs, but the older, larger chick frequently kills its younger sibling once it has hatched." In any case, even if you were right, it wouldn't explain why you and I should do good or should be altruistic; it would only explain why we have those tendencies. Thomas Larsen (talk) 08:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know

I don't know is my answer to this one. I do however think that there seems to be some sort of positive moral evolution taking place. We no longer feed people to lions, hold public executions or support slavery for example. (OK, some parts of the world may have different ideas and sometimes we slip back.) Why? What possible reason could there be for such improvement? I don't know.

It's interesting though that religious people and athiests typically share the the moral codes of the day - and that both try to retrofit their improved moral codes into their philosophies. Those of a religious bent claim that whatever holy book they hold dear "really" says that we should give equal right to homosexuals or ban slavery or whatever OK, so some of them may take a bit longer to catch up ; humanists claim that humanism brings them to the same conclusions. But, as I said, I suspect that it's just a human social development which people then interpret in terms of their existing beliefs.--BobSpring is sprung! 11:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

A cynic writes

The question is very badly framed because it fails to define what is meant by "good" and even defining it as "something that is beneficial to the rest of human society" lacks adequate boundary conditions and doe not distinguish between "moral" and "ethical". First of all the universe is neither "good" nor "evil", it just "is". Good and evil are moral concepts which arise from the fact that we are (in general) social animals. For me, the primary assumption is that biologically we have an evolutionary imperative to promote the continued existence of our genes - the so-called "selfish gene" - but we also have an instinct for self-preservation and the balance between these two is the dichotomy. Social animals like bees and ants have a strong sense of society and will sacrifice themselves to defend and ensure the existence of the colony. Humans evolved from small familial groups (like we see with higher primates) where a hunter/gatherer existence was the norm into large urbanised groups. Different behaviours are required in these two settings because the sense of community in each are on different scales. Humans have evolved a strong sense of group identity - encompassing family, gender, locale, nationality, sexual orientation, physical appearance, culture, religion, social class, wealth, occupation, sports teams and even name (people will often sympathetically identify with someone who has the same first name as themselves) - so how far we go in identifying our group affects what we perceive as being "good" or "evil". So (to invoke Godwin), Hitler may be considered "evil" on one scale but did he think that he was doing evil or was he doing something which he thought was for the good of Germany or the Aryan race? I have certainly noticed differences in attitudes to what is right to wrong between urban and rural communities.

<To be continued, do not reply just yet>

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