Debate:Why do good?

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:::::::::Sometimes there's a chance a criminal can be reformed, sometimes not. And crimes like petty theft aren't serious enough to warrant more than short-term imprisonment. When I wrote that, I had psychopaths in mind, not criminals in general. And there's an obvious difference between eagles and humans: we're not solitary predators, but extremely social animals. The former can make it on their own and don't need tons of rules governing their complex interactions, but we stand or fall together. Every society can take ''some'' extent of rule violations, but if there's even just a substantial minority of people who don't stick to them, things can unravel very fast. Our social fabric is mostly built on expectations how others will behave, and these expectations will rapidly change for the worse when we see others doing evil and getting away with it. That's why it's so important to at least give people the impression that cheaters are few, and they're usually caught. And regarding the point about what we "should do", I already said above that I think it's mostly a post-hoc rationalization for a reflexive emotional response. Focusing on the latter is more valuable to explain human behaviour, IMHO. [[User:Röstigraben|Röstigraben]] ([[User talk:Röstigraben|talk]]) 16:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::::::Sometimes there's a chance a criminal can be reformed, sometimes not. And crimes like petty theft aren't serious enough to warrant more than short-term imprisonment. When I wrote that, I had psychopaths in mind, not criminals in general. And there's an obvious difference between eagles and humans: we're not solitary predators, but extremely social animals. The former can make it on their own and don't need tons of rules governing their complex interactions, but we stand or fall together. Every society can take ''some'' extent of rule violations, but if there's even just a substantial minority of people who don't stick to them, things can unravel very fast. Our social fabric is mostly built on expectations how others will behave, and these expectations will rapidly change for the worse when we see others doing evil and getting away with it. That's why it's so important to at least give people the impression that cheaters are few, and they're usually caught. And regarding the point about what we "should do", I already said above that I think it's mostly a post-hoc rationalization for a reflexive emotional response. Focusing on the latter is more valuable to explain human behaviour, IMHO. [[User:Röstigraben|Röstigraben]] ([[User talk:Röstigraben|talk]]) 16:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 
::::::::::I don't understand the question "why should we be good"? It's already been explained to you why are are "good", the advantages that brings to both individuals and society, and the pleasure it brings most of us. Our society's laws and behaviours have developed from us and these re-affirm our tendency to be altruistic. If you're looking for a gap that the only reason we '''should''' be good is because if we're not we will spend an eternity in Hell, then you're implicitly admitting that you would be "evil" if you didn't have that threat hanging over you.
 
::::::::::I don't understand the question "why should we be good"? It's already been explained to you why are are "good", the advantages that brings to both individuals and society, and the pleasure it brings most of us. Our society's laws and behaviours have developed from us and these re-affirm our tendency to be altruistic. If you're looking for a gap that the only reason we '''should''' be good is because if we're not we will spend an eternity in Hell, then you're implicitly admitting that you would be "evil" if you didn't have that threat hanging over you.
::::::::::I think you need to study societies which are largely secular. Or at least don't have your quaint obsession with eternal damnation as a punishment. Do they have less of a tendency to be "good" than societies based on strong Abrahamic religions (for example)? If not, then Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest answer is the most plausible, i.e. that we want to be "good" (for the aforementioned reasons) and it is this general desire that has created the societies we live in where "good" is indeed good. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] ([[User talk:Ajkgordon|talk]]) 17:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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::::::::::I think you need to study societies which are largely secular. Or at least don't have your quaint obsession with eternal damnation as a punishment. Do they have less of a tendency to be "good" than societies based on strong Abrahamic religions (for example)? If not, then Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest answer is the simplest, i.e. that we want to be "good" (for the aforementioned reasons) and it is this general desire that has created the societies we live in where "good" is indeed good. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] ([[User talk:Ajkgordon|talk]]) 17:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  
 
==I don't know==
 
==I don't know==

Revision as of 17:25, 15 February 2011

Many atheists cite secular humanism as the basis for their morality; but I have never heard a compelling secular reason for why anyone should be moral or do good. "You should do good." "Why?" "Because it's good to do good." That's a circular argument, and it has no rational basis. Or, worse: "You should do good." "Why?" "Because it's beneficial to human society." But why should we care about benefiting human society? "Because it's good." Another circular argument.

In fact, if we choose to define "good" merely as "something that is beneficial to the rest of human society", would it not be pertinent to kill off people in aged-care facilities? After all, most of them are—for all intents and purposes—wasting human society's time and resources, and it's not as if every one of them is still benefiting human society. I do not know a person who would fail to call that murder. But why is that? And, more to the point, why is murder wrong?

I have heard an argument that runs along these lines. In the past, it says, those humans who worked out a kind of mutual agreement centred around respect for each other and each other's property tended to live longer than those who constantly attacked each other out of greed; and so, the argument goes, natural selection has given us human societies that are based on mutual respect and trust. Now, I don't agree with that argument, but I'm not here to debunk it. Rather, I want to ask a very simple question: If you were in a position of power, and there was no possibility of people enacting revenge against you, why would you not murder and rape and pillage at will?

Some may ask, "What is this, you only do good because God's watching you?" No; but that is an irrelevant question. I am not concerned with religion in the context of this debate. I am interested only in how those who don't believe in an objective standard of good justify (a) why they themselves do "good" and (b) why they insist that others do "good". Thomas Larsen (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Possibly paranoia that it could come back to you. I could go on, but I make negative input on a person's mind sound like new age crap.--Thanatos (talk) 03:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Karma, perhaps, or superstition? But that presupposes the existence of the supernatural, and hence it is not a secular rationale. Thomas Larsen (talk) 03:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Why not? ТyAn bulbous, yet assassinate neurotoxin? 03:39, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Secularism, by definition, is separate from religion. Any argument for doing good that depends on religious considerations is, therefore, not secular. Or were you asking "Why not?" in response to another question? Thomas Larsen (talk) 03:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Why not do "good" ТyAn unsophisticated, yet burst Wii? 03:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
To which I shall retort, "Why not do evil?" I think you will agree with me when I say that "good" things are a subset of all the things we could do; why should we limit ourselves to that subset? I mean, it would be convenient if I could rob the bank. Thomas Larsen (talk) 03:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Very well. Have fun. Also, in evolutionary terms altruism also makes it more likely for the species to survive. Only a few people (cough Ayn Rand cough) consider altruism to be bad. Most "good" acts such as community service, teaching, OSS programming, helping others, etc. are altruistic.ТyTalk. 04:04, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
(I will. Actually, I've been trying to program a robot to do the job for me, on the grounds that I can claim it was acting under its own free will... unfortunately, I haven't had very much success yet. It keeps crashing into things.) See, why should I—why should you—care about what is good for the rest of the species? Let's assume, for a moment, that altruism arose as a product of evolution by natural selection. That tells me how I became altruistic, maybe. But it does not tell me why I should be altruistic. Should I be altruistic because it's good? Um, yeah. Thomas Larsen (talk) 04:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
A bank robbing robot?! Hmmm. You will need to get through the vault door and the guards... machine vision was a problem back when I worked across from the bot lab. Oh, anyway, back on topic. I would have to say that humans make their own morality, whichever feels best to them. If you feel like robbing a bank with a robot, have fun. Unfortunately, not everyone will feel that way. And they will likely try to enact legislation getting rid of the poor robots. And I like robots. ТyTalk. 04:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

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But, if humans concoct their own morality, why should we imprison murderers? Rapists? Bank robbers? What if they thought, on the spur of the moment, that it was perfectly right and good to murder, to rape, to rob? I mean, it's easy to say that human beings make their own morality until someone steals your car or mugs you in the street. Thomas Larsen (talk) 04:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Let me draw another analogy here about the flaws inherent in the argument that humans make their own morality. Suppose someone close to you—your significant other, your child, your parents—were murdered by a notorious serial killer; and, when he was eventually tracked down and taken to court, you begged the judge to have him imprisoned for life. And the judge merely sighed, sipped at a cup of coffee, and said, "Well, you know, I'm feeling in a good mood today. And this guy was feeling really frustrated at the time; I think that murder is okay if you're feeling really frustrated. You know, I'm going to let him go free. But you! You who forced me to get out of my warm bed this morning and come to this court—it is you who will be imprisoned for life!" With that, you are handcuffed and led off to a cell. I think you would be outraged, and rightly so. Why? Why is it not okay for a judge to make their own morality and apply it to others? Thomas Larsen (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no objective morality, because morality is a construct of society. Yes, humans concoct their own morality, but it is immensely more complicated than you make it out to be, and it is constantly evolving along with society. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to actually think of an example of objective morality that has been constant throughout human history. A moral absolute is extraordinarily rare. In my opinion, they do not exist. Picon small.pngAcer Blue 05:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
On what basis can you claim that morality is, and always has been, constantly evolving with society? I'm not saying that it hasn't, simply that we do not have even the slightest scrap of evidence on which to base that assumption. Some might point out, for example, that slavery was widely accepted a couple of centuries ago in the Western world, but that has nothing to do with basic morality and everything to do with application. Certainly, there have been minor moral controversies in the past—birth control comes to mind—but they are trivial whirlpools in a far greater current. Killing has always been a moral matter in humanity, but birth control only became a moral matter comparatively recently, for the simple reason that birth control only became practical comparatively recently.
And, at any rate, why should I obey society's morals if I can disobey them without consequences? What right do you have to enforce them? Thomas Larsen (talk) 05:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
On what basis can you assert that objective morality exists? It's almost like the theism debate. No evidence. Picon small.pngLiquid Blue 06:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Ah, but I'm not asserting that objective morality exists—although I think it does, and maybe my bias is showing. Rather, I'm waiting to hear some good secular reasons for why people like you and I should limit ourselves to doing "good" things. I'm not even very concerned about the definition of "good". Let's suppose that our view of good and evil is merely a product of natural selection. Let's suppose that morality has evolved over time, though I don't know of any scientific evidence to suggest that it has. Now, given a particular situation in which there is a "right" thing to do and a "wrong" thing to do, why should I not do the wrong thing if it benefits me personally? Thomas Larsen (talk) 06:13, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Wait - are you asking the question "why should I obey society's morals?", or "where do morals come from such that they hold authority over our actions?" Picon small.pngLiquid Blue 06:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm asking "Why do good?" "Why should I obey any kind of morals?" is directly related to that question. Where morals come from might or might not have anything to do with the answer. Thomas Larsen (talk) 06:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
So you're repeatedly asking a loaded & meaningless question. You say you're not asserting that objective morality exists, but your question (why "do good"?) presupposes that it does. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
How so? The question presupposes that some form of good exists. Whether good is objective or subjective is left undefined. Whether good is local to a particular culture or global to humanity is left undefined. But if we assume that good goes beyond simply what a particular individual wants to do (otherwise, say, rape would be perfectly "good"), then we are left with a problem: why should we do "good"? For instance, why is it not okay to abuse or mistreat someone if you feel like it? Thomas Larsen (talk) 08:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Contents

Hold on a moment

I think we're falling into a classic trap: when confronted with a hard question, we can't resist the urge to answer it and marshal the arguments for and against. But I think the question itself is a bit confused, mostly because there are so many concepts it depends on that we don't really have clear pictures of. First, as mentioned above, we have problems with the difference between explanation and justification. If we find an explanation for a particular behavior or stance or morality, is that the same as its justification? Also, what does it even mean for an act to be just or unjust? Secondly, are these concepts of "just" and "good" and "evil" actually inherent properties of the universe, or are they just properties of our mental models of the universe? And how would we make this determination? Could we do it logically or empirically? (That is, is there some underlying moral structure to the universe, or is it just an inaccuracy in our belief systems? And how do we know?) I suspect that we may not be able to answer Thomas Larsen's question until we can answer these. Tetronian you're clueless 04:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to recognize that there are two underlying components to our morality: a, social and cultural conditioning, and b, the evolution of morality, i.e., its biological basis. There are no "first principles," per se, as we are consciously or unconsciously working within the framework of those two things. Without that, these discussions tend to devolve into philoso-babble. (IOW, I agree.) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I think the distinction between the explanation and the justification is a very important one. But I'm not particularly interested in explaining our sense of morality. How we got to where we are is rather irrelevant; why should we care? But the trouble with justification is that it requires a standard to justify against, whether that standard is objective or subjective; and, if that standard is subjective, it also requires justification. Eventually we either have to arrive at an objective standard or accept that we impose unjustifiable limits on ourselves and on other people. Thomas Larsen (talk) 06:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
"How we got here" is definitely not irrelevant to your question. We're not free to choose our morals in any way we please, we're conditioned by our evolutionary inheritance. That doesn't mean that every single moral rule we abide has been hardwired into our brains, but the way in which we construct our moral codices has. This still leaves room for social construction, but guarantees that we'll come to conclusions that are similar enough to allow for peaceful coexistence. Why do good? Because we feel an impulse to do it, and vice versa, an aversion to do evil. You might as well ask "Why breathe?". We just do it because we feel a strong urge to, the rationalizing comes later. Or ask yourself, is the only reason why you're not committing murder and theft fear of being caught or worries about society going downhill? Or is it because you simply don't want to kill or rob your fellow human beings? And how is it possible that people from across very different cultures and ages have mostly agreed on these fundamental principles if there's no underlying biological explanation? Especially when the societal advantages of having such built-in compassionate responses are obvious and it's hard to see how a society lacking them could have survived. If you're really interested in the topic, I recommend Marc D. Hauser's Moral Minds - he concerns himself with finding the systems and principles that produce our moral codes, or as he calls it, our "moral grammar". Röstigraben (talk) 07:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I think "Why should we do good?" (which is the question I'm interested in, hence "Why do good?") and "Why do we do good?" are two very different questions. I think we can agree that human beings are not "good" all the time, but we have this idea that it's best to do "good"—even if we say that "good" is merely what people make it. "Why do we do good?" is an interesting question that can be answered in a variety of different ways, but I don't think it's particularly relevant to the issue of why we should do "good". We do not call someone immoral for refusing to breathe, although we may call him a fool; but we do call someone immoral for refusing to save a fellow human being in dire need, if he was able and would not have placed himself in any significant danger by doing so. I think there is a great danger in defining "good" as "what we feel an impulse to do", although perhaps that is not what you intended. If that were true, practically all criminals would be vindicated.
I'll try to pick up a copy of Moral Minds; it sounds interesting. Thomas Larsen (talk) 07:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
The question of what we should do is also one that isn't answered as a result of some long, deliberative process, but rather after a quick, reflexive judgement. We reflect on them, we discuss them with others, and try to come up with some rules, but they're always designed to accomodate our spontaneous emotional responses. There was a website somewhere that confronted you with a series of moral dilemmas that increased in complexity, and though few had any problems picking the right, or "good", way of acting, it became increasingly hard to justify. And regarding your second point, "good" is simply what the vast majority of people, not all, have an impulse to do. That's how we define the specifics, by broad majority consensus - unanimity is impossible. In our vast societies, there'll always be a few whose moral compass is either lacking or flawed. A serial killer only becomes one because he does not have the usual impulse to help and protect others, but rather wants to hurt them. Unlike normal people, they can't be trusted to act on their impulses, so we lock them away. That doesn't change the fact that most altruistic acts are born from impulses. Röstigraben (talk) 07:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I agree with you that not all moral situations are clear-cut. In my opinion, sometimes there is a "right" answer, but it is not intuitive; and sometimes there are two answers that are equally "right". Such situations are interesting but comparatively infrequent.
Now, if I understood your argument correctly, you're saying that we—acting on our own impulses—have the right to lock away those people who have different impulses from ours, simply because we are in the majority. But who is to say that we have that right? We might as well have pulled it out from thin air! It sounds like the ultimate bully tactic: let us imprison those who are different from us, because we are bigger than they are. If past experience has shown us anything, it is that the majority can be "wrong". Thomas Larsen (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We don't imprison them because they're different, but because they're dangerous. It's collective self-defense, and if we don't have a right to that, then we don't have any, as we'd waive our right to life. People who simply lack the altruistic impulse and don't react to help others in need are also different, but harmless, so we may chastise them, but we wouldn't lock them away for it. Of course the majority will always define what is good and moral, but when we take a look at the broader picture, it becomes a little circular: only societies in which altruists are in the majority could survive anyway, if there's a majority of psychopaths, it would devolve into chaos and unravel. So, by definition, any society that has managed to persist must have a majority-accepted foundation of moral principles that are "good", i.e. conducive to societal well-being. Röstigraben (talk) 08:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
So car thieves are dangerous to society (what sections of society)? That's why we lock them up? Reformed murderers are dangerous to society? That's why we imprison them for life? You're right, we do restrict people because they're dangerous, but we also punish people for doing wrong.
I don't think you're correct in saying that only altruistic societies have any hope of survival. For example, some animals are known to kill others of their own kind to eliminate competition for food—a "greedy", but very practical, act. See, for example, wp:Eagle#Description: "Many species lay two eggs, but the older, larger chick frequently kills its younger sibling once it has hatched." In any case, even if you were right, it wouldn't explain why you and I should do good or should be altruistic; it would only explain why we have those tendencies. Thomas Larsen (talk) 08:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Sometimes there's a chance a criminal can be reformed, sometimes not. And crimes like petty theft aren't serious enough to warrant more than short-term imprisonment. When I wrote that, I had psychopaths in mind, not criminals in general. And there's an obvious difference between eagles and humans: we're not solitary predators, but extremely social animals. The former can make it on their own and don't need tons of rules governing their complex interactions, but we stand or fall together. Every society can take some extent of rule violations, but if there's even just a substantial minority of people who don't stick to them, things can unravel very fast. Our social fabric is mostly built on expectations how others will behave, and these expectations will rapidly change for the worse when we see others doing evil and getting away with it. That's why it's so important to at least give people the impression that cheaters are few, and they're usually caught. And regarding the point about what we "should do", I already said above that I think it's mostly a post-hoc rationalization for a reflexive emotional response. Focusing on the latter is more valuable to explain human behaviour, IMHO. Röstigraben (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand the question "why should we be good"? It's already been explained to you why are are "good", the advantages that brings to both individuals and society, and the pleasure it brings most of us. Our society's laws and behaviours have developed from us and these re-affirm our tendency to be altruistic. If you're looking for a gap that the only reason we should be good is because if we're not we will spend an eternity in Hell, then you're implicitly admitting that you would be "evil" if you didn't have that threat hanging over you.
I think you need to study societies which are largely secular. Or at least don't have your quaint obsession with eternal damnation as a punishment. Do they have less of a tendency to be "good" than societies based on strong Abrahamic religions (for example)? If not, then Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest answer is the simplest, i.e. that we want to be "good" (for the aforementioned reasons) and it is this general desire that has created the societies we live in where "good" is indeed good. Ajkgordon (talk) 17:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know

I don't know is my answer to this one. I do however think that there seems to be some sort of positive moral evolution taking place. We no longer feed people to lions, hold public executions or support slavery for example. (OK, some parts of the world may have different ideas and sometimes we slip back.) Why? What possible reason could there be for such improvement? I don't know.

It's interesting though that religious people and athiests typically share the the moral codes of the day - and that both try to retrofit their improved moral codes into their philosophies. Those of a religious bent claim that whatever holy book they hold dear "really" says that we should give equal right to homosexuals or ban slavery or whatever OK, so some of them may take a bit longer to catch up ; humanists claim that humanism brings them to the same conclusions. But, as I said, I suspect that it's just a human social development which people then interpret in terms of their existing beliefs.--BobSpring is sprung! 11:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this. I'll also add that it may be an evolutionary instinct to help the species, not a rational decision. Society tells us what is good, instinct drives us to obey it FairyCupcake (talk) 12:01, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Games Theory

It has been shown that in a world where the game is iterative Prisoners Dilemma then generaous tit-for-tat is a winning strategy. When translated to a moral code this works out as "Do unto others as they do unto you but give them the benefit of the doubt occasionally."

OK, so there are number of massive assumptions and over simplifications starting with the posit that interactions can be mapped to a series of Prisoner's Dillemas but it would suggest that co-operating - being good - is a winning formula and, as such, evolutionarily sound. Jack Hughes (talk) 13:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

A cynic writes

The question is very badly framed because it fails to define what is meant by "good" and even defining it as "something that is beneficial to the rest of human society" lacks adequate boundary conditions and doe not distinguish between "moral" and "ethical". First of all the universe is neither "good" nor "evil", it just "is". Good and evil are moral concepts which arise from the fact that we are (in general) social animals. For me, the primary assumption is that biologically we have an evolutionary imperative to promote the continued existence of our genes - the so-called "selfish gene" - but we also have an instinct for self-preservation and the balance between these two is the dichotomy. Social animals like bees and ants have a strong sense of society and will sacrifice themselves to defend and ensure the existence of the colony. Humans evolved from small familial groups (like we see with higher primates) where a hunter/gatherer existence was the norm into large urbanised groups. Different behaviours are required in these two settings because the sense of community in each are on different scales. Humans have evolved a strong sense of group identity - encompassing family, gender, locale, nationality, sexual orientation, physical appearance, culture, religion, social class, wealth, occupation, sports teams and even name (people will often sympathetically identify with someone who has the same first name as themselves) - so how far we go in identifying our group affects what we perceive as being "good" or "evil". So (to invoke Godwin), Hitler may be considered "evil" on one scale but did he think that he was doing evil or was he doing something which he thought was for the good of Germany or the Aryan race?

I have certainly noticed differences in attitudes to what is right to wrong between large and small communities. Small, rural communities tend to be much more certain in their perception of what is "wrong", "evil" or "alien" than in cities where a greater diversity requires greater tolerance.

Getting back to "doing good", we need to define what the good is, because I can discern different things which might be considered good but which are enacted for different reasons. First of all we have the quid pro quo or golden rule (do unto others as you wish to be done to you); we all enter the world as helpless infants unable to care for ourselves for many years and if we are lucky have a lengthy life before some sort of infirmity sets in and we once more require some assistance. Even if when going about our daily lives if we see someone stumble and lend a helping hand it promotes an atmosphere where we might expect the same assistance if we should also trip. There are obvious evolutionary benefits to this. Because of the long period of care which juvenile humans require, a society based on mutual respect for all is beneficial to the greater good and survival of the community/species. Even when people become too weak to contribute to the physical side of supporting a group they have value in childcare where they can release a more physically able person and also are a repository of wisdom and knowledge. Some periodic natural phenomena have a long cycle time and the wisdom of the elderly can prevent societies from having to relearn the same thing over and over again. But at the same time a social bargain is struck and in return for supporting an older person in their final years we also know that we will receive the same support; an aged animal may die or be killed when they are no longer strong enough to fend for themselves but our reliance on brain power means that older humans still have value past their physical sell-by date.

Secondly, the power of the collective, as elucidated by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, means that people can accomplish more when they work together as a team. When one person or group starts to dominate and are seen to be enjoying a preferential lifestyle then resentment sets in and they become vulnerable. I think it is important to understand that great wealth always comes at the expense of other people. If you adopt an entirely self-sufficient lifestyle then you will never become wealthy because you could not accomplish enough by yourself. Even if you were sitting on top of a gold mine it would only be of value if you could barter it for something from someone else. In a civilised/urbanised society we depend upon others and the more we remove ourselves from them, especially if we have acquired wealth at their expense, then the more that people will come to resent the disparity. You may become very rich but if you have to ensconce yourself in a fortress in order to defend those riches from those who have barely enough to live on you can hardly expect to have an enjoyable life having to watch you back all the time. So it is to the advantage of those with more to distribute some of their wealth to assist those with less. A recent book, The Spirit Level suggested that a more equal society was a happier society, and a happier society is probably a safer society for all. So it behoves the ultra-rich to pay their fair share of taxes or construct model villages as Victorian philanthropists did as to preserve their elevated position. I believe that this is a cornerstone of a successful, western, capitalist, social democracy. In Europe where we tend to live closer together then this a more accepted idea, in the USA where most people live much further apart it is easier to separate yourself from the rabble in your own island fortress.

My third point as to why it is advisable to do good from a secular humanistic point is that we are aware of our own mortality. Any wealth that accrues cannot be taken with us and while we might like to bequeath it to our offspring it is often the case that inherited wealth does not command the greatest good to society. Warren Buffet has made a lot of money, albeit from investing rather than inventing, but has decided to give his wealth to charity. From purely selfish reasons - like Nobel, Carnegie, Getty, Gates, etc. - this ensures a degree of immortality after one's death. You can't take it with you, so do something by which you may be remembered. Perhaps not the finest reason but a vain human one.

My fourth point about altruism is the pleasure principle. If we adopt a purely selfish lifestyle then there is only so far we can go before the highs become banal and we demand increasingly self-destructive highs. We may get pleasure from drink, drugs, sex or sky-diving but at some point it is meaningless unless we can share it, even if that does involve a degree of condescension or vanity. For most people, making somebody else happy is enjoyable in itself. It gives one a sense of power that you can control someone else's emotions and engenders gratitude in return, it also makes people like us and one of our fundamental human failings is the need to be liked. (Admittedly there are are sociopaths who do not appreciate this but I think that these are in the minority.) Even if we are "good" in an anonymous context there is a feeling of self-satisfaction moral smugness, one has done something good because one can.

Finally I must address the goodness of the poor. I know that Ken harps on about religious people people giving more to charity but this does not address the issue of distribution. If we are to believe the statistics there are more "people of faith" in the USA than there are atheists or humanists, what if most of these (excluding Bill Gates & Warren Buffet) Christian donors were actually high earners? To really know how generous (or good) someone is then you need to know what percentage of their disposable income is given to charity and I think that in this regard the poor are generally more giving. This is because they have possibly suffered (or come close to suffering) in the past and therefore feel a comradeship with others in need. They know darn well that they could be in the same boat if something goes wrong so give as a form of unspoken mutual-assurance policy, they may need a reciprocal favour in the future.

After dealing with why people may do good I would like to turn to "why not do evil?". What is true "evil"? Murder, rape and pillage seem to be the generally accepted items but even these have degrees. In regards to murder then first we have self-defence, where if we are attacked and are truly fearful for our lives then it may be proportional as last resort to kill our attacker, who might be acting out of malice or some temporary psychotic disturbance (in which case we impose the requirement of proportionality as who knows when we might be similarly afflicted). Second we have manslaughter - murder by negligence - not something that was done with malicious intent but nevertheless resulted in the loss of someone else's life. We must accept responsibility for our own actions as we would be aggrieved if another person or entity killed someone that we loved either though some negligence, parsimony, or dereliction and demand justice. (Here I must take issue with those French people who who having lost a loved one who crashed into one of Napoleon's trees while driving under the influence of alcohol insisted that the tree be cut down as if it was somehow to blame.) Thirdly we have the killing of another human just because we don't like them, think that we have been slighted by them (or the group to which we think they belong) or somehow they got in our way of attaining some minor goal. Most societies regard this as unacceptable as the effect is disproportional to the benefit one might accrue but often becomes acceptable when escalated to the level of international war (in the role of a protagonist rather than in self defence). However, we must turn the tables and think "what if it was us that had offended someone else" or were seen as standing in the way of someone's material gain. Would we accept it? No, the golden rule requires that we are proportionate in response. Some cultures demand that shaming of the family or clan requires a death (but then forget that there might be a reciprocal requirement which leads to escalation) but most legal codes recognise that this should not be the remit of laymen as the greater stability of society is their prime concern. Rape also has degrees; Julian Assange is charged with rape in Sweden because he did not use a condom while engaging in consensual sex, in some jurisdictions a married woman has automatically consented to sex with her husband whenever he likes, statutory rape is sexual intercourse with a person below an arbitrary legal age of consent - in the UK it used to be 12, now it's 16 - who's to say where the precise line should be drawn? We may have a legal definition of rape but it is much more difficult to ascribe a moral one because it often boils down to psychological coercion, issues of power or even temporary self-intoxication (if two people are both drunk who is to blame if sex occurs?). Pillaging (theft with violence during wartime) or the taking of things from others that do not belong to us is also seen as evil but again has degrees. Some have access to natural resources denied to others either by privilege or accidents of history. If a man and his family (or nation) are starving because they have no access to land yet a rich man (or country) has an orchard or field of food is it evil for the starving man to take it? Some might claim that it is evil for the better off to withhold it, especially if they do not need it beyond their own subsistence.

Some people consider any infraction of the Ten Commandments as evil but four of them are purely about religious observance; the rest are about respecting your parents, not stealing, killing or lying, and respecting the property of others (including their spouse). The latter six are "good" because they ensure the smooth running of a society by protecting everyone in equal measure.

So I see that I've rambled on at length but my point is that doing "good" can be an essential part of enlightened self-interest, good for one group may not be good for another, evil for some may be good for others, and doing nothing may be good or evil depending on the circumstances.  Lily Inspirate me. 14:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The simple answer is...

...of course that the majority of us roughly agree on what "good" is, that we like it, that we want it to happen much more often than "evil", and so we collectively make society's rules (laws, conventions, etc.) to promote it. There isn't a gap here for God to fall into. It's pretty basic. Ajkgordon (talk) 13:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Enlightened Self-Interest

The ethic of reciprocity is an ancient and common idea, and it's a good one: do good for others so they will do good for you. It's true and it works in a logically consistent, ethics-based, entirely practical way. It also has the benefit of being breathtakingly simple, and allows for all kinds of interpretations such as "Jesus made human society so that this would work" right on over to the more cynical "we can make a social contract to step up from our bestial nature to this".--ADtalkModerator 13:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

See Lily, above. She is much more thorough and intelligent.--ADtalkModerator 16:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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