Forum:Continuing cluelessness about free speech
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::::You're flying too low! This is rapidly approaching "Stop oppressing my freedom of speech by calling me on my bullshit" territory. Guess what? These particular opinions seem pretty shitty, and appear to me as just-world believing bullshit. [[User:Ikanreed|Ikanreed]] ([[User talk:Ikanreed|talk]]) 19:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC) | ::::You're flying too low! This is rapidly approaching "Stop oppressing my freedom of speech by calling me on my bullshit" territory. Guess what? These particular opinions seem pretty shitty, and appear to me as just-world believing bullshit. [[User:Ikanreed|Ikanreed]] ([[User talk:Ikanreed|talk]]) 19:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::::Well, I personally think that there is a hell of a lot of bullshit out there, but I don't think that that guy was really producing it. He was trying to frame a very important issue in terms of self-interest, ''because he had to''. For an average fraternity brother (or at least my image of one), nothing other than pure self-interest is going to produce a response. Make no mistake - this is an issue that should not have to be framed in terms of self-interest. But "ought" is not "is", and ignoring or shouting down anything that does not fit with the "ought" is not going to work in this situation. This kind of response kills pragmatism by stigmatizing the kind of pragmatic response that this person was trying to give. ([[User:Agrajag|Agrajag]] ([[User talk:Agrajag|talk]]) 21:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)) | :::::Well, I personally think that there is a hell of a lot of bullshit out there, but I don't think that that guy was really producing it. He was trying to frame a very important issue in terms of self-interest, ''because he had to''. For an average fraternity brother (or at least my image of one), nothing other than pure self-interest is going to produce a response. Make no mistake - this is an issue that should not have to be framed in terms of self-interest. But "ought" is not "is", and ignoring or shouting down anything that does not fit with the "ought" is not going to work in this situation. This kind of response kills pragmatism by stigmatizing the kind of pragmatic response that this person was trying to give. ([[User:Agrajag|Agrajag]] ([[User talk:Agrajag|talk]]) 21:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)) | ||
| + | ::::::Did you guys see the stock photo of a busty woman mouthing a wine bottle that accompanied Frezza article? Helpful? Seriously? Forbes was absolutely right to can him and since they did so before anyone even commented on the article it's nothing more than speculation to blame it on some "chilling effect" instituted feminist bogey women. In any event I feel like inadvertently I side tracked this discussion by bringing it up. The question really revolves around were a line is drawn regarding free speech as a value outside of government regulation. Since we're split on whether Frezza is a moron he doesn't serve as a very good example of highly undesirable speech being blocked by non-governmental authority. I'll throw out a couple more: Awhile back we here at RationalWiki showed the door to a pedophile activist hoping to prove that child sexual abuse was less harmful than people believed as "most abusers are pretty chill dudes" as he said. Was this a sign that we don't a value free speech as much as we should? How about intelligent design proponents who have incredible difficulty publishing in academic journals? Are these journals debasing free speech by denying these earnest believers a platform? I'd argue that the answer to both is no, but that means that free speech in the private sphere can be limited and the platforms have the right to control their message and content. | ||
| + | ::::::That being said, there is a disturbing tendency, exacerbated by the internet, to shout down and attempt to inflict harm upon those who express oppositional views, but the key here is that it appears present on just about all sides of all issues. It isn't a facet of the left any more than it is of the right, there are elements of both which are susceptible to knee jerk activism and pseudo-outrage. | ||
| + | ::::::At the end of the day, it's a balancing act. I agree that freedom of speech is a value to uphold beyond a mere right granted by the government and that there's a troubling tendency to throw that value out the window, but I also feel that part of the value of free speech is an ability to call bullshit for what it is despite the fact that sometimes doing so costs the bullshit artist their job. --[[User:Marlow|Marlow]] ([[User talk:Marlow|talk]]) 22:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 22:22, 29 September 2014
This Cracked article follows a line of bogus reasoning I've heard once too often, even here. The basic problem is a failure to distinguish between free speech as a value; versus free speech as a legal right that may or may not exist under local laws.
The writer imagines that "free speech" is equivalent to the First Amendment, or some other guarantee in local laws or constitutions. The fact that laws may differ in what they protect is held up as an argument against the value, and imagined to weaken its importance. Only the government can violate free speech: so if your private college or boss or a website tries to shut out your message, free speech is not at all violated.
Bullshit.
Now, nobody says anything this stupid about freedom of religion, for instance. We recognize immediately that if your boss fires you for being an atheist, or tries to require all of the employees to attend a church or prayer meeting, your freedom of religion has been violated. Your freedom of religion has been violated even if the government had nothing to do with it. And your freedom of religion would be violated even if there wasn't a local law banning that kind of discrimination.
Freedom of speech is exactly like that.
It is not identical with First Amendment law. That law is a recognition of the value of free speech, but free speech is bigger than the First Amendment. People in Saudi Arabia don't have a First Amendment. Does this mean that Saudi censorship is legitimate? or that Saudi subjects have no business complaining? The First Amendment might not create a legal remedy against, say, moderation on a message board. But moderation on a message board may indeed implicate the value of free speech.
Free speech is, instead, a value system you should uphold that tells you that it's wrong to try to punish somebody for expressive activity that you find offensive. The reasons you find it offensive are irrelevant. Free speech is a value system that is greater than its protections, if any, under local laws. The law flows out of this value system, not the other way around. Yes, it's wrong for the government to punish people for self-expression. It's also wrong for you to try as well. And it's also wrong for a private college or a message board to go around censoring the content of opinion: at least if the college or the board are also pretending to be forums for the free exchange of ideas. (And no, nobody said they had to be that.)
This shouldn't have to be this hard. But people who tell you that free speech applies only to the government are dangerously wrong. It's a Hobby Lobby view of the value, one that authorizes repression campaigns so long as they're done by private gangs of bullies rather than police forces. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 14:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Absolutely. If you violate someone's rights, you violate their rights. On the other hand, speech can actually legitimately be disruptive to a community that has a directed purpose. If my boss fires me for constantly harassing and annoying other employees(with say my lack of religious beliefs), even if I'm doing my job excellently, the speech itself can impair that particular mission, and my boss would be quite reasonable in asking me to express myself elsewhere, and taking reasonable punitive action. So government infringement falls into a separate category, because it essentially says "your speech is somehow an anathema to the purposes of the country", which we understand to be silly, since protecting our rights is one of the most important reasons for having a nation at all.
- If an internet community wants to banish all dissent, it can't do so under the guises of pragmatism, while still claiming to have liberal ideals, but if it wants to limit the harm that certain discussions can have on why people gather, it can. Ikanreed (talk) 15:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody's saying you can't have a seminary dedicated to teaching a particular body of doctrine or an Internet forum devoted to particular purposes. On the other hand, there's been a disconcerting indulgence shown to campaigns designed to get columnists and commentators fired for the content of their commentary, or to drive art and magazines from visibility. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 16:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Media companies are private enterprises and their editorial control over contributors is a form of free speech right in itself. They can get rid of columnists and commentators who jeopardise them, and public pressure for them to do so seems like another legitimate free speech right to me. Weaseloid
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Threats of boycott and similar agitations were the weapons of the White Citizens' Councils and the Legion of Decency[wp]. There's history here that's been forgotten. If it was wrong then, it remains wrong now. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 20:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm no fan of boycotts & the harm they can do, but they're part of the free speech marketplace. If you support freedom of speech then you support people's rights to voice their opinions, individually or en masse. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- On the one hand, it's the old paradox: do you give political freedoms to those who want to destroy those very freedoms. My concern is more with the stated mission of the site: again, we seem to be very indulgent of left-wing authoritarians. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 22:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Question, is free speech being defined here as a purely negative right? i.e. One has the right not to be suppressed, but does one have the positive right to a platform such that your speech is, in effect, more powerful in society? Put another way, does it restrict my free speech that I have not been given a column in the New York Times? I would think that a conception of a right to speech in which it is censorship to try and reduce the scope of someone's speech away from 'privileged above the average citizen' would also consider it censorship to not give any person that pulpit when asked. Some people in our society have more right to speech than others, the way you're defining it. I agree that attempts to have people 'taken off the air' can be censorious, but so can refusal to let someone on the air, as it were. With that in mind, how would you ensure that everyone's positive right to free speech is protected? You seem to support maximum speech for individuals who are favored by a news corporation, and reduced speech for a large number of people who do not have that support. 108.14.124.36 (talk) 12:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- Let me put it this way. I don't think that free speech gives you a right to an audience; that's something you have to earn by being interesting. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 01:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm no fan of boycotts & the harm they can do, but they're part of the free speech marketplace. If you support freedom of speech then you support people's rights to voice their opinions, individually or en masse. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
- Threats of boycott and similar agitations were the weapons of the White Citizens' Councils and the Legion of Decency[wp]. There's history here that's been forgotten. If it was wrong then, it remains wrong now. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 20:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Media companies are private enterprises and their editorial control over contributors is a form of free speech right in itself. They can get rid of columnists and commentators who jeopardise them, and public pressure for them to do so seems like another legitimate free speech right to me. Weaseloid
- Nobody's saying you can't have a seminary dedicated to teaching a particular body of doctrine or an Internet forum devoted to particular purposes. On the other hand, there's been a disconcerting indulgence shown to campaigns designed to get columnists and commentators fired for the content of their commentary, or to drive art and magazines from visibility. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 16:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I strongly support the 1st amendment, unlike many people (witness the article appearing in the clogs a few days ago), and I believe that abuse of rights is abuse of rights whether it is done by the government, a corporation like Hobby Lobby, or a private citizen. But the laws concerning free speech concern only the government. I think that rationalists should come up with some sort of rule concerning abridgment of free speech and when it is or is not justified, so that we have something to judge by when new laws and censorship movements (moral guardians, etc.) come along. (Agrajag (talk) 21:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC))
- Howdy folks. Longtime lurker, first time poster. I apologize for my mis-formatting and will cheerfully be set right; this edit mode is a bulky way to have a conversation.
- Anyway, @Smerdis, humor me that we both have some grounding in at least the legal contours of this issue. While I certainly take the point that there is some value we'll call "free speech" which is transcendent of its reduction to "Congress shall make no law...", your own formulation seems to swing the pendulum far in the other direction. Sez you: "Free speech is, instead, a value system you should uphold that tells you that it's wrong to try to punish somebody for expressive activity that you find offensive. The reasons you find it offensive are irrelevant." This only makes sense to me if you and I, perhaps, agree that "punishment" is a poor way to go about encouraging outcome which one finds desirable, a notion with at least some legs to it. I suppose you might also be saying "speech should be fought with speech, and not with power; let the marketplace of ideas sort it out," an idea with some appeal but some limitations as noted below. But it seems at least possible that you're saying something like "all expressive activity which one finds offensive should be magnanimously accepted, no matter the reason for the offense." This seems to paint the point with too broad a brush, so maybe instead of just speculating I should stop here and ask you to more precisely tell me what you mean. It's all fine and good to call free speech a value transcendent of the first amendment, but it doesn't absolve us of the burden to define the metes and bounds of the value.
- The bugaboo here is that - and you know this, but I articulate it for general edification - what we call "speech" is often just a type of, or at least synecdoche for, "conduct." When the government punishes me for the expressive conduct of saying "help wanted, but no black people," they are punishing me not for the expressive quality of the speech but for the conduct which it expresses. This is the problem with my (self-inflicted strawman) notion that we can simply let the marketplace of ideas fight out speech issues; speech isn't always 'just' speech, it often has a component of conduct, and unless we're at the point of also declining to punish (or at least regulate; I concede that for all I know your issue is simply with the concept of 'punishment' itself) conduct which we find offensive - or at least some of it - then we're left with this problem.
- There are other fine points here on which I have thoughts, but I'll begin with these baby steps and see if I can manage to post a comment correctly. Iangoeswest (talk) 17:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- I get the sense that Smerdis is talking about something specific regarding left wing restrictions on free speech, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. An example would be helpful in crystallizing exactly what it is we're talking about. Are we talking about the kind of rapid fire twitter sphere stuff like #CancelColbert or are we talking about publications sacking columnists with who's opinions they don't want to be associated such as Forbes recent firing of Bill Frezza [1]? The former seems to be more of an unfortunate consequence of knee jerk internet pseudo-outrage than anything else - equally common on both the left and the right, just ask the Dixie Chicks. The latter, on the other hand, seems like perfectly acceptable behavior on the part of a publication: writer is hired to produce insightful material, he produces grossly ignorant drivel which will insure he is never taken seriously again, writer loses job. --Marlow (talk) 17:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and I really don't distinguish one from another; but the reach of conservative correctness just seems somewhat less salient to me, perhaps because I move in the wrong circles, and if I moved in the right ones I might not give a fig about free speech anyways.
That is an excellent example, though. Frankly, I find the fuss over the frat article both incomprehensible and scary. Some guy who's apparently written a series of articles about "risk management" for fraternities tells his audience that they ought to be as zealous turning away drunken women from their drinking parties as they are drunken men. This strikes me as wise counsel, delivered in a manner his intended audience could assimilate, but apparently it tripped the predictable outrage-mongers at Gawker. And he isn't out of line to suggest that drunk women may have gotten a pass that drunk men never got; nobody wants the drunk dude around. AFAIAC he isn't even out of line in suggesting that the drunk woman represents a liability you should try to avoid. He knows that his audience sees no benefit to having another drunk guy around, but will cut women slack because they, at minimum, want to increase the female ratio. He also observes a double standard: drunken women are less likely to be perceived as jerks than drunken men. Are these more of those true things that we're not allowed to notice any more?
Seriously: if you're against drunken sexual assaults, he was trying to help. If the article is no longer available, it's more evidence of a censorious and priggish party line and how it seeks to stifle expression as a means to stifle thought. It may be a generational thing; I'm a product of the Animal House generation, and a healthier and saner (pre-Nancy Reagan) campus drinking and drug culture. His pointing out the perverse effects of policies attempting to suppress "binge drinking" may have made him further enemies, and "disrespectful to women" is a good enough stick to beat him with. But I don't want to live in a world where writers who say something as essentially innocuous as that article stir up a crowd of bullies. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 00:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and I really don't distinguish one from another; but the reach of conservative correctness just seems somewhat less salient to me, perhaps because I move in the wrong circles, and if I moved in the right ones I might not give a fig about free speech anyways.
- I get the sense that Smerdis is talking about something specific regarding left wing restrictions on free speech, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. An example would be helpful in crystallizing exactly what it is we're talking about. Are we talking about the kind of rapid fire twitter sphere stuff like #CancelColbert or are we talking about publications sacking columnists with who's opinions they don't want to be associated such as Forbes recent firing of Bill Frezza [1]? The former seems to be more of an unfortunate consequence of knee jerk internet pseudo-outrage than anything else - equally common on both the left and the right, just ask the Dixie Chicks. The latter, on the other hand, seems like perfectly acceptable behavior on the part of a publication: writer is hired to produce insightful material, he produces grossly ignorant drivel which will insure he is never taken seriously again, writer loses job. --Marlow (talk) 17:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- There are other fine points here on which I have thoughts, but I'll begin with these baby steps and see if I can manage to post a comment correctly. Iangoeswest (talk) 17:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- Smerdis, I'm not sure where my disconnect is, because I agree (or "round up" to agree) with your assessment of the article. I don't know from Gawker, although my very knee-jerk assessment is that if this guy got fired for writing that article, his job must not have been very valuable to his employer to begin with. I also think that critics whose criticism is nothing more than clever Fisking through sarcasm (here I am referring to the Jezebel link) don't deserve my attention, but I am likely outside their target demographic and so they have no more reason to listen to me than me to them.
- All of which is to say, for my nickel these sorts of problems (whatever I mean by "these sorts") are more a FUNCTION OF free speech rather than a victim of its absence; maybe if speech weren't so "free" people would pay a little more for each word (equivocation of the word "free" noted). Meaning, who is this 'priggish party line' and why is Forbes bothering to listen to them?
- The thing I think the Cracked article got right is that "free speech," in and of itself, is a lousy argument; if that's your defense, you've already lost. I have no idea who Bill Frezza is, but if he can't defend his position with a stronger argument than "free speech" (although I'm not saying this was his defense), and if Forbes can't support his mildly-controversial position (I guess) in the withering face of Jezebel's sarcasm, then the wrong writer was working for the wrong publication.
- tl;dr version: we've always had ill-targeted public outrage, some manufactured, some merely dumb - with the internet, we just have a lot more of it. I don't know that "free speech" is precisely the banner under which I'd rally people to stop being so freaking stupid and reactionary; it doesn't feel like a great fit.
- As I say, if I had a better sense of the principled boundaries of when it's OK for me to rhetorically dope-slap people for their dumb ideas, I might more easily be on board with free speech as a value unto itself, but until then I feel called upon to justify my own ideas by something more than my mere right to speak whatever fool thought comes out of my mouth.
- Again, though, I may merely be failing to understand the level of generality to which this notion is directed; Smerdis, in my long lurk I've read lots of your stuff and found it agreeable and thought provoking, so maybe instead of more of my jabbering I should shut up and just ask you to focus this "free speech" notion a little more. End Transmission. Iangoeswest (talk) 03:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- At the risk of making this less focused, I'd refer to the site's stated missions, one of which is to oppose authoritarianism. The Jezebel piece linked above rings the changes on 'you aren't allowed to say that'. I am not privy to the editorial decisions at Forbes, but I don't find the text of the original column all that unreasonable, especially given the people it was actually trying to reach. Yes, I would have explicitly mentioned that one of the hazards of inviting in a drunken woman is that she will in fact be sexually assaulted at the frathouse, which can also lead to hassles. I think his intended readership knows that already. And most of the people reading this who knew frat boys didn't like them, and tended to define yourself against them. I know I did as an undergraduate. Puka shells, cargo pants, and Trans Ams. Gah. Good to know that some things don't change over thirty-five years.
I'd prefer a seamless web of opposition to moral warfare of every kind. Even if the only benefit of expression is personal catharsis, it ought to be at least presumably protected. It's the mobbing and bullying I find objectionable; and yes, this sort of thing was made a lot easier by the Internet. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 05:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- At the risk of making this less focused, I'd refer to the site's stated missions, one of which is to oppose authoritarianism. The Jezebel piece linked above rings the changes on 'you aren't allowed to say that'. I am not privy to the editorial decisions at Forbes, but I don't find the text of the original column all that unreasonable, especially given the people it was actually trying to reach. Yes, I would have explicitly mentioned that one of the hazards of inviting in a drunken woman is that she will in fact be sexually assaulted at the frathouse, which can also lead to hassles. I think his intended readership knows that already. And most of the people reading this who knew frat boys didn't like them, and tended to define yourself against them. I know I did as an undergraduate. Puka shells, cargo pants, and Trans Ams. Gah. Good to know that some things don't change over thirty-five years.
- Again, though, I may merely be failing to understand the level of generality to which this notion is directed; Smerdis, in my long lurk I've read lots of your stuff and found it agreeable and thought provoking, so maybe instead of more of my jabbering I should shut up and just ask you to focus this "free speech" notion a little more. End Transmission. Iangoeswest (talk) 03:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, I got a bead on this now - in re-reading the thread through reference to your essay on activism, I think I was closer to it when I speculated that perhaps you were saying something like "'punishment' is a poor way to go about encouraging outcomes which one finds desirable," a notion sufficiently provocative that I prefer to get out of its way and let someone else knock it down if they wish; the devil has enough advocates without my needing to get in there.
- Like most ideas that resonate but don't quite 'fit' for me - like the dissent that seems to read as well as the majority, but they can't both be right - it's about recognizing the shifting level of generality. Indeed, how can we oppose 'moral warfare' without abandoning the ramparts of morality itself? Justice Scalia ran this notion up the flagpole in his dissent in Romer, one of his finest pieces which was nonetheless so very, very wrong. Levels of generality again. I am unpersuaded that "free speech" is the precise aegis to shield ourselves against moral warfare, but certainly think that the all-too-common dynamics of "internet activism" tend to support, rather than refute, your point about activism writ large. So, I remain a little stuck; I don't know myself to mob or bully, but I sure call stupid "stupid" when I see it. I suppose I'm used to working on a smaller scale; my valuing a well-reasoned "opinion" over a transient "feeling" (which is what many people seem to hold, but call "opinions" for the same reason janitors are called maintenance technicians) is a moral exercise of sorts, but a somewhat value-neutral one. I'm open to persuasion.
- tl;dr again - I'm all for free speech, but don't ask me to listen to stupid and nod thoughtfully like I'm hearing the good stuff.
- Anyway man, I know conflict drives the internet but I got nothing in particular; I'm not in wholesale agreement but my departure points seem like quibbles; perhaps as the matter develops, either on this page or in my head, I'll come up with something more robust. I appreciate your points.Iangoeswest (talk) 05:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Jezebel article was an expression of free speech just as much as the Forbes one. The difference seems to be that you (Smerdis) agree with the Forbes one and not with Jezebel's reaction to it. Fine, that's your prerogative, but plenty of people have taken the opposite view. As I pointed out above, a writer's freedom of speech is somewhat beholden to what their publication's editors choose to publish (or, in this case, withdraw from publication) but that's in the nature of writing for hire rather than self-publishing and still falls well within freedom of the press. Jezebel isn't "authoritarian"; it has not authority. It's simply commenting on what it's authors (& presumably its editors) find objectionable, which is exactly the sort of expression that freedom of speech protects. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 14:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Jezebel article was an expression of free speech just as much as the Forbes one. The difference seems to be that you (Smerdis) agree with the Forbes one and not with Jezebel's reaction to it. Fine, that's your prerogative, but plenty of people have taken the opposite view. As I pointed out above, a writer's freedom of speech is somewhat beholden to what their publication's editors choose to publish (or, in this case, withdraw from publication) but that's in the nature of writing for hire rather than self-publishing and still falls well within freedom of the press. Jezebel isn't "authoritarian"; it has not authority. It's simply commenting on what it's authors (& presumably its editors) find objectionable, which is exactly the sort of expression that freedom of speech protects. Wėąṣėḷőįď
- The thing is that people want to be seen to be on the right side of the internet hounds. So when they see someone calling something - anything - bigoted on the internet, they jump on it. They won't bother to read or think. They will just jump on it and beat the shit out of it. Remember #cancelcolbert? How many of those people do you think bothered to watch the segment? Hell, how many people do you think even knew who Steven Colbert was before they used the hashtag? Most people are more scared of being seen to be racist or otherwise to be on the other end of mass opinion than they are worried about being wrong. There is no risk in being part of a mob, but being part of a mob will win you praise or make you feel good. So calling something bigoted on the internet is like doxxing: if you call something bigoted, on even the flimsiest of pretenses, you will get a large group of people willing to rally around your banner no matter what. So read it before you mob it.(Agrajag (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC))
- (edit conflict) I think this might be apropos [2]. Stifling dissenting speech is a very real issue and Smerdis is right that it often extends beyond simple government interference, into the social web and frequently into people's employment. The general climate in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq would be a good example of how this can go horribly wrong. So there's certainly something to be said for free speech as a value rather than a mere right. That being said, calling people out for ignorant bigoted speech is obviously a perfectly reasonable component of "free speech as a value", which, by the way, was the only thing the Jezebel piece in question was doing. But calling a creationist ignorant or a white supremacist bigoted is one thing, calling for them to be fired is, perhaps, another. Unfortunately it isn't always that simple, to take an example from Smerdis' originally linked Cracked article: Speech is frequently directly connected to activities which are not speech, exemplified by the hypothetical "Now Hiring! - No blacks" sign. It isn't the speech that is illegal, it is the discriminatory hiring practices it advertises. I think we can take this a step further, out of the legal and into the "values" realm. When Phil Robertson likens homosexuality to bestiality, it isn't simply the speech that is problematic, it is the "values" that it advertises. Values which are advertised whenever Phil Robertson is given a platform and values which I believe people and companies should be free to distance themselves from. Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too, maybe there isn't a difference between someone advertising their ignorance and bigotry and someone advertising their opposition to a foreign war, but I like to think there is. --Marlow (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- For me, the chief issue revolves around the stated mission of the site, and our occasionally too enthusiastic reception of pieces like that Jezebel one.
- Values which are advertised whenever Phil Robertson is given a platform and values which I believe people and companies should be free to distance themselves from. Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too, maybe there isn't a difference between someone advertising their ignorance and bigotry and someone advertising their opposition to a foreign war, but I like to think there is.
- And this is the temptation. One person's ignorant bullshit is another's sacred belief system. Those Israelis in that link imagine they're promoting social solidarity in support of a war effort. That Jezebel writer worked herself up into such a froth about supposed sexism and victim-blaming that it seemed to entirely escape her that the writer she was responding to was in fact trying to lead his frat-boy readership in the right direction to avoid the very evil she condemns. He addressed his frat-boy audience without paying appropriate attention to feminist pieties, and that blinded her to all else.
Again, our brief is opposition to, among other things, "authoritarianism." I found the peremptory tone of the Jezebel article authoritarian; again, it seemed to ring the changes on 'you can't say that', and some of the things it objected to strike me as unfortunate facts of life. It's easy to see the bullying and wrongness when strings are pulled to get appearances, concerts, and sponsorships cancelled when the victims are anti-war Israelis. It seems to be harder when the victims are accused of sexism, racism, or religious bigotry. Even there, I tend to feel that it's more important to understand than to judge, and so I am very uneasy with bullying and mobbing in this latter case as well. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 21:04, 27 September 2014 (UTC)- Exactly - it is far too easy to call something bigoted and leave it at that. If someone challenges it, just say that they don't understand. And the risk of that accusation leads to a massive chilling affect of any and all discussion of race, gender, etc.. Just after the killing of Michael Brown, a Fox News anchor said "you know who talks about race? Racists!" That kind of thing can hardly be constructive. (Agrajag (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC))
- (EC) So you don't like the tone of the Jezebel piece. Are you arguing that it shouldn't have been published? If so, how do you reconcile that with freedom of speech? Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:33, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- (ec, I think?)These strike me as essentially structural problems of a) the anonymous internet, and b) the short attention span of talking-head news. We're trying to fit the ten pounds of crap that is instamedia without thought or follow-through into the five pound bag that is free speech. Arguendo a sea-change in culture that valued free speech for free speech's sake - or even just consensus of the same on this one website - we would be no closer to and no further from the basics of argument - argue the point and not the person, cite your authority, show your work. I'll be the first to take up the banner that the castle of reasoned thought is being overrun by the torch and pitchfork crowd, but I don't see how letting speech flow more freely would change the tide. Yes, it is more important to understand than to judge; I call the Jezebel author on the carpet for her failure here. Of course, this means I'm supposed to "understand and not judge" the Jezebel commentary which seemed to me to be long on snark and short on substance. But free speech, I guess? It seems like turtles all the way down.
I agree with Smerdis regarding the corrosive and dangerous qualities of mob piling on, and agree with the implicit value judgment that the piling on itself is more harmful than anything the original author said which - and here I may have spent too much time recently reading PUA websites with horror and fascination - seemed pretty tame. But again, "free speech" as the banner does little to describe the particular vice complained of, IMO. Iangoeswest (talk) 21:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- (EC) So you don't like the tone of the Jezebel piece. Are you arguing that it shouldn't have been published? If so, how do you reconcile that with freedom of speech? Wéáśéĺóíď
- Exactly - it is far too easy to call something bigoted and leave it at that. If someone challenges it, just say that they don't understand. And the risk of that accusation leads to a massive chilling affect of any and all discussion of race, gender, etc.. Just after the killing of Michael Brown, a Fox News anchor said "you know who talks about race? Racists!" That kind of thing can hardly be constructive. (Agrajag (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC))
- For me, the chief issue revolves around the stated mission of the site, and our occasionally too enthusiastic reception of pieces like that Jezebel one.
- (edit conflict) I think this might be apropos [2]. Stifling dissenting speech is a very real issue and Smerdis is right that it often extends beyond simple government interference, into the social web and frequently into people's employment. The general climate in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq would be a good example of how this can go horribly wrong. So there's certainly something to be said for free speech as a value rather than a mere right. That being said, calling people out for ignorant bigoted speech is obviously a perfectly reasonable component of "free speech as a value", which, by the way, was the only thing the Jezebel piece in question was doing. But calling a creationist ignorant or a white supremacist bigoted is one thing, calling for them to be fired is, perhaps, another. Unfortunately it isn't always that simple, to take an example from Smerdis' originally linked Cracked article: Speech is frequently directly connected to activities which are not speech, exemplified by the hypothetical "Now Hiring! - No blacks" sign. It isn't the speech that is illegal, it is the discriminatory hiring practices it advertises. I think we can take this a step further, out of the legal and into the "values" realm. When Phil Robertson likens homosexuality to bestiality, it isn't simply the speech that is problematic, it is the "values" that it advertises. Values which are advertised whenever Phil Robertson is given a platform and values which I believe people and companies should be free to distance themselves from. Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too, maybe there isn't a difference between someone advertising their ignorance and bigotry and someone advertising their opposition to a foreign war, but I like to think there is. --Marlow (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- The thing is that people want to be seen to be on the right side of the internet hounds. So when they see someone calling something - anything - bigoted on the internet, they jump on it. They won't bother to read or think. They will just jump on it and beat the shit out of it. Remember #cancelcolbert? How many of those people do you think bothered to watch the segment? Hell, how many people do you think even knew who Steven Colbert was before they used the hashtag? Most people are more scared of being seen to be racist or otherwise to be on the other end of mass opinion than they are worried about being wrong. There is no risk in being part of a mob, but being part of a mob will win you praise or make you feel good. So calling something bigoted on the internet is like doxxing: if you call something bigoted, on even the flimsiest of pretenses, you will get a large group of people willing to rally around your banner no matter what. So read it before you mob it.(Agrajag (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC))
(ec) Not at all. And again, I'm not privy to the lucubrations of the Forbes editorial board, and don't know if the Jezebel piece had anything to do with the withdrawal of the blog post and the sacking of its writer. I do believe that the blog post should have stayed and the writer should not have been fired. I suspect, without knowing, that the Forbes editors may have felt threatened by the sort of aggressive righteousness on display, wanted to dodge an orchestrated campaign of intimidation, and chose the coward's path.
I'm not saying that the Jezebel piece should not have been published or that the piece or its writer should be hounded off the Internet. That would make me a morally aggressive asshole, indistinguishable from the enemy. Bullies are bullies whether they're massing on 4chan or on Tumblr. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 21:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- No, no. Whatever people want to write, they should be allowed to write (as long as its not a direct incitement to violence). If someone's contracted to write material for a magazine, they should be allowed to publish it. I'm not saying that the Jezebel piece should be taken down, nor that the Forbes thing should be taken down. However, groupthink ruins public discourse much effectively more than a few racists or sexists can. I read the Time article about the Forbes thing, because I can't find a copy of the Forbes article. But the Time piece seems to be saying "this is misogynistic" over and over again, then quoting a sentence, then being sarcastic. What the writer of the original piece (which is unfindable) seems to have been trying to do is to frame the prevention of date rape in terms of the self-interest of fraternities, as well as stating a fact: that you shouldn't let drunk people into parties. The Jezebel article includes an ad hominem attack, exaggerates the significance of quotes, even saying that the author objectifies women (compares him to Chris Brown) because he used the word "female" at one point. The response is utterly uniform and wildly disproportionate. it is somewhat frightening. (Agrajag (talk) 21:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC))
- It's not frightening; just a writer calling out sexism where she sees it - exactly the sort of commentary freedom of speech is there to protect. You might not recognise the sexism or think it's a big deal, and you're welcome to your opinion, same as anyone else. I see a lot of high-handed talk about mobs & bullies & authoritarianism, but it seems like what you guys are most riled about is somebody expressing opinions you don't share, which makes me wonder if in fact your commitment to freedom of speech only runs one way. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:50, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- Ideological blinkers such as are manifest in the Jezebel and Time pieces are something I find rather disconcerting. They suggest obsession, and a microscopic field of vision, all signs of disengagement with reality. That is scary, in a way. But this has nothing to do with freedom of speech or thought in itself, and as I said above, I would not wish to see either piece unpublished or either author hounded from the internet. Only one article has been hounded from the internet here, and that is one too many.
What bothers me is the Jezebel and Time authors' insistence that the issues raised by the Forbes blog must be viewed through the lens of feminist doctrine, even though it was addressed to an audience of non-feminists (but an audience that may be acquainted enough with the language of feminism to eyeroll at it) and contained mostly good advice that was in part about how to keep sexual assaults from happening at your frathouse. It's the suggestion that we're not allowed to talk about these subjects in the language of the Forbes article that I find oppressive, and inconsistent with free speech values. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 02:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)- Nobody is saying you're "not allowed" to talk about the subject in those terms. I don't know where you're getting that from. But why should it be above criticism when you do? "Leave him alone, he's trying to help" and "he's not talking to you" seems like a pretty lame response to legitimate criticism. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 09:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody is saying you're "not allowed" to talk about the subject in those terms. I don't know where you're getting that from. But why should it be above criticism when you do? "Leave him alone, he's trying to help" and "he's not talking to you" seems like a pretty lame response to legitimate criticism. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
- Ideological blinkers such as are manifest in the Jezebel and Time pieces are something I find rather disconcerting. They suggest obsession, and a microscopic field of vision, all signs of disengagement with reality. That is scary, in a way. But this has nothing to do with freedom of speech or thought in itself, and as I said above, I would not wish to see either piece unpublished or either author hounded from the internet. Only one article has been hounded from the internet here, and that is one too many.
- It's not frightening; just a writer calling out sexism where she sees it - exactly the sort of commentary freedom of speech is there to protect. You might not recognise the sexism or think it's a big deal, and you're welcome to your opinion, same as anyone else. I see a lot of high-handed talk about mobs & bullies & authoritarianism, but it seems like what you guys are most riled about is somebody expressing opinions you don't share, which makes me wonder if in fact your commitment to freedom of speech only runs one way. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď
- No, no. Whatever people want to write, they should be allowed to write (as long as its not a direct incitement to violence). If someone's contracted to write material for a magazine, they should be allowed to publish it. I'm not saying that the Jezebel piece should be taken down, nor that the Forbes thing should be taken down. However, groupthink ruins public discourse much effectively more than a few racists or sexists can. I read the Time article about the Forbes thing, because I can't find a copy of the Forbes article. But the Time piece seems to be saying "this is misogynistic" over and over again, then quoting a sentence, then being sarcastic. What the writer of the original piece (which is unfindable) seems to have been trying to do is to frame the prevention of date rape in terms of the self-interest of fraternities, as well as stating a fact: that you shouldn't let drunk people into parties. The Jezebel article includes an ad hominem attack, exaggerates the significance of quotes, even saying that the author objectifies women (compares him to Chris Brown) because he used the word "female" at one point. The response is utterly uniform and wildly disproportionate. it is somewhat frightening. (Agrajag (talk) 21:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC))
- @Weaseloid - I have less of a dog in this particular fight - I self-identify as a feminist for what that's worth, and think the Jezebel piece was gratingly dumbed-down, for what THAT's worth - and am more engaged with the original premise of the thread; I think your criticism firms up my view that "free speech" is, in fact, only about that particular relationship between the Government and the "People," and that beyond that there may be no inherent value to free speech divorced from the quality of the speech being spoken. Here, perhaps, someone with a less U.S.-centric view can set me straight; when I think free speech I think first amendment, and nothing I've read here has moved me off that dime.
This has nothing to do with whether people ought be shouted down or bullied into silence; they oughtn't. And my position here is strongly urged but weakly held; I'm willing to change my mind, but have seen no guiding principle which supports "free speech" but allows us to distinguish the good stuff from the bad stuff in any way that doesn't subject one to the criticism Weaseloid raises. Is there in fact some tradition of expression for expression's sake - some notion of "free speech" independent of its Constitutional dimensions - which guides us or provides reference? Otherwise, at risk of sophistry, I'll stick my neck out and say that no, "free speech" is in fact about keeping King George's foot off my neck, and that whatever other value we're trying to drive at here isn't free speech - it's about not letting morons should down sensible thought, recognizing that we're still stuck with defining the morons and the sensible thinkers. Sheesh. Iangoeswest (talk) 05:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Weaseloid - I have less of a dog in this particular fight - I self-identify as a feminist for what that's worth, and think the Jezebel piece was gratingly dumbed-down, for what THAT's worth - and am more engaged with the original premise of the thread; I think your criticism firms up my view that "free speech" is, in fact, only about that particular relationship between the Government and the "People," and that beyond that there may be no inherent value to free speech divorced from the quality of the speech being spoken. Here, perhaps, someone with a less U.S.-centric view can set me straight; when I think free speech I think first amendment, and nothing I've read here has moved me off that dime.
- Also @Weaseloid - Again, I'm not disagreeing with the Jezebel writer's right to speak in a manner with which I disagree. After defending the Forbes writer's right to say things that others disagree with, that would be profoundly hypocritical. What I am saying, however, is that gratuitous accusations of bigotry and the inevitable releasing of hounds that goes with it do a lot to hurt public discourse. When people feel that they have to use certain word forms or phrase things in a particular way, or that they can't even express views mildly disagreeable to the people who hold the "release the hounds" button, the effect is a flattening of opinion. In a democracy, a society that only functions because people can express differing views, that is extremely dangerous. Democracy (and not just the governmental kind) draws its power from debate followed by reasoned consensus. Is one spat over one article going to send us back to the dark ages? Certainly not. But look at political/social discourse today. We have a few echo chambers. There's a liberal one, a conservative one, etc.. And people are afraid to step out of those chambers and have a decent debate with the other side because they know that they will be laughed out of the house and vilified for expressing a different view than the inhabitants of echo chambers x, y, and z. So people in each echo chamber snipe at each other with buzzwords and catchphrases, and rarely bother to actually discuss things or broaden their horizons. And so nothing constructive gets done, nothing changes. And the automatic and near-instantaneous responses to people who use even mildly different language to express opinions does no good for society. If people thought more before they wrote things, our society would be in a much better place. I'm not saying that there aren't people who need to be laughed out of the house, but it would be nice if we could get a sense of perspective. (Agrajag (talk) 15:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC))
- Who are these people who hold the "release the hounds" button? What gives them that authority? This still all looks hand-wringing about people using their freedom of speech to say things that you don't like or agree with or to raise concerns that you don't think are a big deal. If you're advocating for something specific to change, what is it? Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 16:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Pretty much anybody can release the hounds, if they have a fairly significant number of people who listen to them, and they're seen as being wronged. As I said before, someone can take offense at just about anything and people will follow them. As I said before, calling something bigoted on the internet is like doxxing: if you call something bigoted, on even the flimsiest of pretenses, you will get a large group of people willing to rally around your banner no matter what. Again, I would invoke #cancelcolbert. And I don't think that there needs to be legislative change - I just wish that people would find out basic information about things before jumping on them, and no legislation will accomplish that. (Agrajag (talk) 19:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC))
- But bigotry does exist, and pointing it out (even on the internet) is the kind of commentary which free speech protects. It's nothing like doxxing, which is a violation of privacy. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm saying that it is like doxxing in that it will almost automatically provoke a response. And I'm not saying that bigotry does not exist, nor that it should not be pointed out. It does and it should. However, I think that it is evident that people don't often consider the destination or contents of a bandwagon before jumping onto it. This is the kind of groupthink that RationalWiki is supposed to oppose. If you apply rational thinking to a possible case of bigotry and then point it out, then that is a positive and necessary thing. (Agrajag (talk) 21:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC))
- But bigotry does exist, and pointing it out (even on the internet) is the kind of commentary which free speech protects. It's nothing like doxxing, which is a violation of privacy. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
- Pretty much anybody can release the hounds, if they have a fairly significant number of people who listen to them, and they're seen as being wronged. As I said before, someone can take offense at just about anything and people will follow them. As I said before, calling something bigoted on the internet is like doxxing: if you call something bigoted, on even the flimsiest of pretenses, you will get a large group of people willing to rally around your banner no matter what. Again, I would invoke #cancelcolbert. And I don't think that there needs to be legislative change - I just wish that people would find out basic information about things before jumping on them, and no legislation will accomplish that. (Agrajag (talk) 19:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC))
- Who are these people who hold the "release the hounds" button? What gives them that authority? This still all looks hand-wringing about people using their freedom of speech to say things that you don't like or agree with or to raise concerns that you don't think are a big deal. If you're advocating for something specific to change, what is it? Wëäŝëïöïď
- Also @Weaseloid - Again, I'm not disagreeing with the Jezebel writer's right to speak in a manner with which I disagree. After defending the Forbes writer's right to say things that others disagree with, that would be profoundly hypocritical. What I am saying, however, is that gratuitous accusations of bigotry and the inevitable releasing of hounds that goes with it do a lot to hurt public discourse. When people feel that they have to use certain word forms or phrase things in a particular way, or that they can't even express views mildly disagreeable to the people who hold the "release the hounds" button, the effect is a flattening of opinion. In a democracy, a society that only functions because people can express differing views, that is extremely dangerous. Democracy (and not just the governmental kind) draws its power from debate followed by reasoned consensus. Is one spat over one article going to send us back to the dark ages? Certainly not. But look at political/social discourse today. We have a few echo chambers. There's a liberal one, a conservative one, etc.. And people are afraid to step out of those chambers and have a decent debate with the other side because they know that they will be laughed out of the house and vilified for expressing a different view than the inhabitants of echo chambers x, y, and z. So people in each echo chamber snipe at each other with buzzwords and catchphrases, and rarely bother to actually discuss things or broaden their horizons. And so nothing constructive gets done, nothing changes. And the automatic and near-instantaneous responses to people who use even mildly different language to express opinions does no good for society. If people thought more before they wrote things, our society would be in a much better place. I'm not saying that there aren't people who need to be laughed out of the house, but it would be nice if we could get a sense of perspective. (Agrajag (talk) 15:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC))
That's way too many colons to keep track of.
The Jezebel piece was full of passages like This paragraph is actually smart and good, except for the part where he calls a woman a "female," as though she were a specimen or the subject of a Chris Brown Tweet, Men capable of sensibly and knowledgeably discussing sexual assault must be wincing so hard right now, or False accusations of rape more concerning than actual rape perpetuated by frat members on incapacitated women? Hey, I think I've heard this one before! Again, I call this variations on the theme of "you aren't allowed to say that now." Criticisms like this do in fact ignore the intended audience.
I'm not sure whether a comparison with doxxing works or not. What I know is that Forbes pulled an innocuous and helpful piece and fired a well-informed writer on a specialized subject. In First Amendment law, that would be called a "chilling effect" if the government was involved. Pieces like that Jezebel article are an attempt to impose a party line, and create a climate of fear. That's wrong. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 14:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- If you think that piece was "innocuous and helpful," you are really fucking stupid. Hipocrite (talk) 15:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Jezebel article was posted after the Forbes article had already been swiftly withdrawn; it had no influence on the decision. It also certainly didn't ignore the intended audience. If feminist criticism only focused on things written by and for feminists, it wouldn't serve its purpose very well. Something written by a man for a male audience promoting sexism against women is exactly the sort of thing feminist criticism is likely to target, just as anti-femninist criticism targets things written by feminists promoting a feminist agenda or worldview. As for creating a "a climate of fear", these are the some of the phrases used by Bill Frezza: "As recriminations against fraternities mount and panicked college administrators search for an easy out . . . But it is precisely those irresponsible women that the brothers must be trained to identify and protect against, because all it takes is one to bring an entire fraternity system down. . . . False accusation of rape months after the fact triggered by regrets over a drunken hook-up, or anger over a failed relationship. . . . It doesn't take much for a campus kangaroo court to get you expelled, ruining your life while saddling your fraternity with a reputation for harboring rapists. . . . a world that no longer believes in personal responsibility". Looks to me more like fearmongering than anything the Jezebel author says. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 16:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, yes. The Forbes writer was trying to motivate people to do a right thing they might be reluctant to do. 'Fear-mongering' is an appropriate rhetorical ploy in that situation. It's not much different from reminding people that vaccinations are preferable to polio.
And of course, a writer in that role needs to address his reader's actual motivations, which in this case do include such things as "false accusations of rape" and other things we're no longer allowed to talk about. Again, a screed of feminist doctrine wouldn't be persuasive here, and would likely be counterproductive. And yes, some women are irresponsible (oops, not allowed to say that, either). And bugbears like "binge drinking" have misbegotten rules that lead some partiers to drink elsewhere first before leaving for the frathouse. I suspect Frezza's the expert here as well, but I wouldn't know. The world was saner forty years ago, and "binge drinking" was more or less expected, especially at fraternities. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 19:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)- You're flying too low! This is rapidly approaching "Stop oppressing my freedom of speech by calling me on my bullshit" territory. Guess what? These particular opinions seem pretty shitty, and appear to me as just-world believing bullshit. Ikanreed (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I personally think that there is a hell of a lot of bullshit out there, but I don't think that that guy was really producing it. He was trying to frame a very important issue in terms of self-interest, because he had to. For an average fraternity brother (or at least my image of one), nothing other than pure self-interest is going to produce a response. Make no mistake - this is an issue that should not have to be framed in terms of self-interest. But "ought" is not "is", and ignoring or shouting down anything that does not fit with the "ought" is not going to work in this situation. This kind of response kills pragmatism by stigmatizing the kind of pragmatic response that this person was trying to give. (Agrajag (talk) 21:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC))
- Did you guys see the stock photo of a busty woman mouthing a wine bottle that accompanied Frezza article? Helpful? Seriously? Forbes was absolutely right to can him and since they did so before anyone even commented on the article it's nothing more than speculation to blame it on some "chilling effect" instituted feminist bogey women. In any event I feel like inadvertently I side tracked this discussion by bringing it up. The question really revolves around were a line is drawn regarding free speech as a value outside of government regulation. Since we're split on whether Frezza is a moron he doesn't serve as a very good example of highly undesirable speech being blocked by non-governmental authority. I'll throw out a couple more: Awhile back we here at RationalWiki showed the door to a pedophile activist hoping to prove that child sexual abuse was less harmful than people believed as "most abusers are pretty chill dudes" as he said. Was this a sign that we don't a value free speech as much as we should? How about intelligent design proponents who have incredible difficulty publishing in academic journals? Are these journals debasing free speech by denying these earnest believers a platform? I'd argue that the answer to both is no, but that means that free speech in the private sphere can be limited and the platforms have the right to control their message and content.
- That being said, there is a disturbing tendency, exacerbated by the internet, to shout down and attempt to inflict harm upon those who express oppositional views, but the key here is that it appears present on just about all sides of all issues. It isn't a facet of the left any more than it is of the right, there are elements of both which are susceptible to knee jerk activism and pseudo-outrage.
- At the end of the day, it's a balancing act. I agree that freedom of speech is a value to uphold beyond a mere right granted by the government and that there's a troubling tendency to throw that value out the window, but I also feel that part of the value of free speech is an ability to call bullshit for what it is despite the fact that sometimes doing so costs the bullshit artist their job. --Marlow (talk) 22:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I personally think that there is a hell of a lot of bullshit out there, but I don't think that that guy was really producing it. He was trying to frame a very important issue in terms of self-interest, because he had to. For an average fraternity brother (or at least my image of one), nothing other than pure self-interest is going to produce a response. Make no mistake - this is an issue that should not have to be framed in terms of self-interest. But "ought" is not "is", and ignoring or shouting down anything that does not fit with the "ought" is not going to work in this situation. This kind of response kills pragmatism by stigmatizing the kind of pragmatic response that this person was trying to give. (Agrajag (talk) 21:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC))
- You're flying too low! This is rapidly approaching "Stop oppressing my freedom of speech by calling me on my bullshit" territory. Guess what? These particular opinions seem pretty shitty, and appear to me as just-world believing bullshit. Ikanreed (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, yes. The Forbes writer was trying to motivate people to do a right thing they might be reluctant to do. 'Fear-mongering' is an appropriate rhetorical ploy in that situation. It's not much different from reminding people that vaccinations are preferable to polio.
- The Jezebel article was posted after the Forbes article had already been swiftly withdrawn; it had no influence on the decision. It also certainly didn't ignore the intended audience. If feminist criticism only focused on things written by and for feminists, it wouldn't serve its purpose very well. Something written by a man for a male audience promoting sexism against women is exactly the sort of thing feminist criticism is likely to target, just as anti-femninist criticism targets things written by feminists promoting a feminist agenda or worldview. As for creating a "a climate of fear", these are the some of the phrases used by Bill Frezza: "As recriminations against fraternities mount and panicked college administrators search for an easy out . . . But it is precisely those irresponsible women that the brothers must be trained to identify and protect against, because all it takes is one to bring an entire fraternity system down. . . . False accusation of rape months after the fact triggered by regrets over a drunken hook-up, or anger over a failed relationship. . . . It doesn't take much for a campus kangaroo court to get you expelled, ruining your life while saddling your fraternity with a reputation for harboring rapists. . . . a world that no longer believes in personal responsibility". Looks to me more like fearmongering than anything the Jezebel author says. Wéáśéĺóíď