Forum:Libertarianism, loauv vs rob
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I first need to see how much of a libertarian you are. Are you with me in having the government have taxes in order to incentivize the taking of some vaccines, like the polio vaccine 50 years ago when it was prevalent? [[User:LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant|LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant]] ([[User talk:LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant|talk]]) 20:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC) | I first need to see how much of a libertarian you are. Are you with me in having the government have taxes in order to incentivize the taking of some vaccines, like the polio vaccine 50 years ago when it was prevalent? [[User:LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant|LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant]] ([[User talk:LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant|talk]]) 20:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
| + | :Yes. Public education perhaps, as well. Things like the minimum wage or FDIC however, which do not draw on a tax base, are a different matter. [[User:RobSmith|nobs]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Corporations are people, too]]</sup> 21:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
== Personal belief == | == Personal belief == | ||
Revision as of 21:32, 30 October 2012
From the Saloon Bar.
Contents |
Libertarianism
Quoting RobSmith/nobs: "C'mon, seriously. $4 million in taxes and $4 million charity in just one year. That's $8 million. Christ, Rmoney has created more jobs than Obama ever did, and paid those workers high wages out of his own pocket, simply by hiring a contractor to build him a three car garage." Anecdotal. On his own ignoring what he did in government, sure, he made more jobs. I am concerned about making a happy, materially wealthy, free society. I do not believe the policies supported by Romney will get us there. I do not believe libertarian policies work. Thus, in that sense, in their hypothetical roles as president, Obama will surely do more to make our society happier, more materially wealthy, and free. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 22:49, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- That just has not been the record. Look at the poverty rates. Look at CNN Fact Check.Net Loss of Nearly 1 Million Public-Sector Jobs Since Obama Took Office. nobsCorporations are people, too 00:01, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cool story, bro.
- So you're saying we should expand the public sector. Glad we agree. Theory of Practice Still tryin' to figure it all out. 00:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- The one million public sector jobs lost are vastly state and locality jobs, not federal. This presumably is the result of (a) democratic elections; (b) unwillingness of voters to raise taxes to support public sector payrolls, benefits, and pensions; (c) not directly related to federal deficits or Obama. nobsCorporations are people, too 16:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- So, you're apologizing for just citing evidence that has nothing to do with Obama, when you used it to attack Obama? So, you were in complete error? I'm sorry, I can't have conversations with people if they're unwilling to admit error when they're wrong. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 21:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Again, you miss the point. CNN Fact Check calls the DNC & Obama's claim of creating 4.5 million jobs complete bullshit, and CNN cites the fact 1 million public sector jobs have been lost during Obama's tenure. Obama claims the election is about different visions, his of big deficits & public sector growth, and Rmoney's of private sector growth which then allows for public sector growth. I'm not in disagreement with anyone about anything. I'm just presentling facts and evidence. nobsCorporations are people, too 00:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I mentioned that libertarian policies don't work. You tried to present counter-evidence, using Obama as an example of a not-libertarian. You presented your evidence as "Net Loss of Nearly 1 Million Public-Sector Jobs Since Obama Took Office". You then clarified that Obama had nothing to do with it. If you do not see the intellectual dishonesty inherent in that framing, then I will have nothing more to do with you. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Libertarian" is a broad umbrella term, and the line of attack on Romney generally is he's devoid of a core ideology, so it's a moot point. Now, the public sector being totally dependent upon the size, growth, and expansion of the private sector is probably not simply a libertarian tenet. Those who hold the view the public sector can grow at the expense of a static or shrinking private sector probably are outside the mainstream of modern academia and public opinion. nobsCorporations are people, too 17:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's not an admission of guilt nor an apology. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I mentioned that libertarian policies don't work. You tried to present counter-evidence, using Obama as an example of a not-libertarian. You presented your evidence as "Net Loss of Nearly 1 Million Public-Sector Jobs Since Obama Took Office". You then clarified that Obama had nothing to do with it. If you do not see the intellectual dishonesty inherent in that framing, then I will have nothing more to do with you. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Again, you miss the point. CNN Fact Check calls the DNC & Obama's claim of creating 4.5 million jobs complete bullshit, and CNN cites the fact 1 million public sector jobs have been lost during Obama's tenure. Obama claims the election is about different visions, his of big deficits & public sector growth, and Rmoney's of private sector growth which then allows for public sector growth. I'm not in disagreement with anyone about anything. I'm just presentling facts and evidence. nobsCorporations are people, too 00:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- So, you're apologizing for just citing evidence that has nothing to do with Obama, when you used it to attack Obama? So, you were in complete error? I'm sorry, I can't have conversations with people if they're unwilling to admit error when they're wrong. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 21:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- The one million public sector jobs lost are vastly state and locality jobs, not federal. This presumably is the result of (a) democratic elections; (b) unwillingness of voters to raise taxes to support public sector payrolls, benefits, and pensions; (c) not directly related to federal deficits or Obama. nobsCorporations are people, too 16:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- So you're saying we should expand the public sector. Glad we agree. Theory of Practice Still tryin' to figure it all out. 00:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cool story, bro.
Frankly, you lost me. The point is, yourself & Mr. Obama evidently are in that minority that believes expanding government payrolls while shrinking private sector payrolls somehow is beneficial to the overall society. This is complete nonsense according to generally accepted economic scholarship and public opinion, worldwide. nobsCorporations are people, too 01:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- You have to be a troll, or have your head so far up your own ass. Read this whole thing again, starting at the "libertarianism" topic. I said "libertarianism doesn't work". You said "nuh uh, see how Obama's policies fail?" (itself full of fallacies). You later said "well, those job numbers I just cited, they don't anything to do with Obama". That is what we call dishonesty, or at least inconsistency. I still await an admission that your first quote about Obama was totally off mark, either by accident which you later corrected, or off mark with malicious intent. I await a statement of wrongdoing, an admission of guilt, and an agreement that you won't do it again. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 06:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- <schools LoAUV in the art of rhetoric> You said, "I do not believe libertarian policies work." BFD. Saying it does not make your personal beliefs factual or even remotely resemble reality. The premise of your argument was a personal belief. I cited the factual, historical record. I further presented evidence that Obama's love of federal deficits did not directly lead to public sector jobloss (although an indirect case can be made). I further cited evidence the democratic will of the electorate opposes Obama's love of tax increases (while reserving comment on the wisdom of "austerity measures").
- If I stated, "I believe you are a troll", does that make my premise valid? Your argument is faulty, being entirely based upon your stated personal belief. Fuck, maybe I'm offended by such naivety. Maybe you should apologize to me, and admit your guilt. Would that, then, make me "win" the argument? nobsCorporations are people, too 10:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- "The one million public sector jobs lost are ... not directly related to federal deficits or Obama" and "I further presented evidence that Obama's love of federal deficits did not directly lead to public sector jobloss (although an indirect case can be made)" ... Pick one you goddamned hypocrite. Either he is responsible, or he isn't, and to what degree. Don't say he's not responsible but add in that he is responsible. That is intellectually dishonest. Either way you've contradicted yourself at least 4 times thus far. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
False dichotomy, Obama and libertarianism
I can't spell it out any simpler than this. I claimed that liberatarianism doesn't work. You cited Obama. How is this fucking relevant? This is not multiple choice. You are doing an argument from false dichotomy. Proving Obama's policies suck do nothing to demonstrate that libertarian policies work (compared to all alternatives). LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 20:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
How much of a libertarian are you?
I first need to see how much of a libertarian you are. Are you with me in having the government have taxes in order to incentivize the taking of some vaccines, like the polio vaccine 50 years ago when it was prevalent? LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 20:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. Public education perhaps, as well. Things like the minimum wage or FDIC however, which do not draw on a tax base, are a different matter. nobsCorporations are people, too 21:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Personal belief
When I say "I believe X (to be true)", that is merely a statement that I consider the proposition X to be true. Maybe I think it's true for justified reasons. Maybe I don't. The statement "I believe X (to be true)" encompasses both of those positions, and more. It is not definitively a statement of personal faith. This is how I'm going to use the word, and this is how a great many other people use the word, so suck it up, and drop this uber pedantic mode if you would, please. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 20:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
argument ad populatum (sp), for Obama's policies
"I further cited evidence the democratic will of the electorate opposes Obama's love of tax increases (while reserving comment on the wisdom of "austerity measures")." Argument ad populatum (sp). How is this relevant to the question of whether libertarian policies work (compared to all alternatives)? LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2012 (UTC)