Forum:Theology

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(Courtier's Reply)
(Edit point 4)
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::::::::::Nope. I do it because of your poor writing skills, your poor analytic skills, and your seeming inability to construct a basic argument. Never once have I said anything about what you actually (don't) believe. Show me where. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] ([[User talk:JubalHarshaw|talk]]) 20:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 
::::::::::Nope. I do it because of your poor writing skills, your poor analytic skills, and your seeming inability to construct a basic argument. Never once have I said anything about what you actually (don't) believe. Show me where. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] ([[User talk:JubalHarshaw|talk]]) 20:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::You pick on me because you don't like my beliefs. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] ([[User talk:Proxima Centauri|talk]]) 20:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::You pick on me because you don't like my beliefs. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] ([[User talk:Proxima Centauri|talk]]) 20:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 +
::::::::::::Answered above. Now you're just repeating yourself. Do you see me ragging on any other atheists here? If I were inclined to pick on people for their atheism, this is certainly a target-rich environment. Either prove your point or shut it down. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] ([[User talk:JubalHarshaw|talk]]) 20:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 
::::::::That was directed at PC, not you. And that's not about her atheism, it's about her poor analytic skills. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] ([[User talk:JubalHarshaw|talk]]) 20:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 
::::::::That was directed at PC, not you. And that's not about her atheism, it's about her poor analytic skills. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] ([[User talk:JubalHarshaw|talk]]) 20:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
  

Revision as of 20:20, 3 October 2012

Contents

Why Dawkins and Myers are irrelevant.

If theologians were asking for their work to have a place in biology departments, I suppose that the opinions of biologists would matter. But they aren't making any such demands. also, if you're going to appeal to authority, Myers isn't a great resource. Not even a full professor and employed at a fairly marginal school? EDIT. If you want to talk about these sorts of issues, you're probably better off looking to people in the field of STS than to biologists. JubalHarshaw (talk) 16:59, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Those who study theology from outside the subject get a more objective view than those who study in a theology department.

  1. Theology students must agree with their lecturers and professors or they risk bad grades.
  2. Theology lecturers agree with their professors or their career prospects suffer. Proxima Centauri (talk) 07:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Myers is not even a full professor? Isn't being an assistant professor impressive enough for you? Myers does the challenging work of being an assistant professor and has a successful second career as an influential blogger with literally millions of hits to his site. Myers probably chooses to devote his energy to researching and refuting religion rather than challenging the incumbent professor or moving to a new area where there's a vacancy for a full professorship. Proxima Centauri (talk) 07:24, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe he's actually an associate now, but that's still not terribly impressive at 55 years of age, especially not at a major school. Conservapedia gets millions of hits too. Doesn't make it influential. JubalHarshaw (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The article is not appealing to authority the article is telling readers what noted critics are saying/writing. People pay attention to Myers as the popularity of his blog shows so I feel we should inform readers what Myers says. Dawkins gets even more attention. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:04, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

People? What people? People who know anything about the subject at hand--theology--or is this now an appeal to popularity? And as for "noted critics," Myers runs a blog. Self-published, no peer-review. He has no real training, as far as I can tell, in the issue at hand--he's a lab guy with some personal opinions on stuff outside the lab. So what makes him "a noted critic" on the question of theology? And you miss the most important thrust of my argument--if theologians wanted to be acknowledged as "scientists," then the opinion of other scientists would matter. YEC cranks aside, they don't, so the question of the "scientific nature" of theological knowledge is a non-issue. JubalHarshaw (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
How useful is peer review in a faith based subject like theology? Myers is a scientist and can see theology amounts to elaborate constructions founded on unprovable and improbable faith based premises. People who agree with Myers flock to his site. Theology matters because intelligent people who could otherwise do useful work spend their lives developing ever more complex constructions with no foundation in reality. What's more in public colleges and universities all this fantasy work is done at public expense. Public funds provide comfortable salaries and a comfortable lifestype for all this fantasy work. I don't ask for public funding when I write The Aliens of the Flaming Red Sun and I wouldn't get funds if I asked. Theology looks superficially more acceptable because it's been done for 2 millennia but it's as useful or useless as other fiction. Proxima Centauri (talk) 07:43, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
This is not an appeal to the people, it's simply informing readers what an influential blogger and scientist believes. RationalWiki has a great many articles about influential people of varying credibility, and including the opinions of Myers is in keeping with that. I explained what Myers wrote, I didn't endorse it. I personally agree with Myers here but even if I disagreed his views would still have a place in the article. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:29, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
" what an influential blogger and scientist believes." 1. Influential with whom? 2. Believes about a topic about which he has no authority, training, or expertise. So what? 3. And you miss the most important thrust of my argument--if theologians wanted to be acknowledged as "scientists," then the opinion of other scientists would matter. YEC cranks aside, they don't, so the question of the "scientific nature" of theological knowledge is a non-issue. JubalHarshaw (talk) 17:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
We have articles on Young Earth Creationism and on assorted YEC cranks. I don't presume to insult Dawkins or Myers by suggesting either is in any way comparable to YEC. Even if they were comparable RationalWiki would still write articles about them and explain their views. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Nothing in your post is relevant to what I just said. Do you have trouble with basic reading skills? The reason I mentioned YEC cranks is because they are the only possible exception to an argument that theologicans are making "scientific" claims. Nothing to do with Dawkins and what's-his-name. JubalHarshaw (talk) 18:19, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Those who study theology from outside the subject get a more objective view than those who study in a theology department.

  1. Theology students must agree with their lecturers and professors or they risk bad grades.
  2. Theology lecturers agree with their professors or their career prospects suffer. Copied from above because it's also relevant here Proxima Centauri (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I didn't refer to what you wrote because what you wrote isn't relevant. Dawkins and Myers are major players in the field and it's reasonable to explain their views. Whether Dawkins and Myers are right or wrong it's still reasonable to explain what they write. [Edited to add that I went back and dealt with what JubalHarshaw wrote 2 days later as the issue won't go away.] Proxima Centauri (talk) 18:46, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Dawkins and Myers are players in the field of biology, not theology. And I'm not sure how "major" a player Myers is as a biologist. What they write about theology they do as interested amateurs, not as trained professionals. JubalHarshaw (talk) 18:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm.png I'm not discussing the qualifications of Myers or anyone else, it's still worth including his views in the article. Proxima Centauri (talk) 18:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

But...the discussion is about whether or not Dawkins and Myers have the required qualifications to make them a good citation for the article. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Facepalm.png Facepalm.png The article is about what critics of theology write and all critics are relevant. We don't need to limit ourselves to critics with specified qualifications. Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

"...all critics are relevant." I think I see your problem now. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit point 1

Facepalm.png Facepalm.png Facepalm.png Not all critics are necessarily right but all critics are relevant. Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Let me offer you some critiques on the ongoing football game. Now bear in mind I have never, ever watched football ever in my life before and know nothing at all about the subject. Is my critique "relevant," if by "relevant" we mean "worth citing in an article allegedly created by a website that tries to be a reliable voice on the question"? JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know of any atheist who made silly comments like the one you imagine someone making about football and having the large following that Dawkins and Myers have.

  1. Earlier there was a claim that some atheists had written material that's superficially as unreasonable as the imagined claim about football.
  2. In the section, Double standards I suggested adding those unreasonable claims to an article as a warning.
  3. In the end I didn't add the claims anywhere because nobody gave links so I can't evaluate the claims in their context. I'm not even sure the unreasonable arguments atheists supposedly made actually happened.
  4. Claims which influential atheists make have a place in RationalWiki even if we need to warn readers against whatever the atheist/atheists claim. Proxima Centauri (talk) 08:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
More importantly, when you add a quote by someone like myers, that says "there is no difference between religions", and anyone who has ever set their foot inside a church can tell you that there ARE differences, it makes you look like an idiot of saying it, and an idiot for quoting it. I suppose, possibly, maybe Dawkins quote is popular enough that I never touched it. But just as JubalH is saying, what is the point of citing someone who knows LITERALLY NOTHING about theology, and infact made up his own entire world called "sophistacated theology" to prove that he's really never read anything or understands the point of it. When Dawkins says "theolgoy doesn't belong in academics because it's not science" why does he not make the same claim about philosophy? Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 15:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Philosophy and Mathematics are based on reason and logic, both lead to the truth. Theology is based on fantasy. Public funding for philosophy and maths increases human knowledge, public funding for theology at best increases our understanding of fantasy. Proxima Centauri (talk) 08:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
It seems that both Proxima and you are missing the point of what Myers wrote and why he wrote it.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:00, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I've never read it, nor do i care. I've only read the quote prox added, which said exactly what I said it said. Context is everything.  ;-) Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 16:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the point Myers made was that he knows no scientific way to tell which theology, if any is right and which is wrong. I don't think Myers denies there are differences between religions, denominations and sects.

(...) how can you claim that Catholicism or Scientology or Mormonism or Islam or Lutheranism or Black Hebrews are any more right than anyone else? More Sophisticated theology

See the quote above. Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

"all critics are relevant". No prox, they aren't. that's why we discount the "critics" of evolution. Not ever voice matters. there are ACTUAL CRITICISMS of theology, you know. you could get into those, if you wanted a real criticism.Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 16:37, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Please give me links. Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
It is in effect, a version of the balance fallacy. Jubal made the most compelling point - if he's watching a football game and making criticism about the play choice, having never seen a game before, his criticism is not valid.Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 16:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
The imagined critic of football makes invalid criticism. If the invalid criticism is ignored we ignore it too, if the invalid criticism has as large following we explain it and warn against it. Proxima Centauri (talk) 08:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Please don't introduce Red herrings, I asked for links about "ACTUAL CRITICISMS of theology" which you claim there are. The qualifications of Myers are relevant to the previous debate but they divert attention away from the links about "ACTUAL CRITICISMS of theology" which I asked for. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:15, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit point 2

As this conversation seems to be going retarded pretty quickly, I should say that most of this is covered by the Courtier's Reply and Sophisticated Theology™. Their criticisms are relevant in noting whether theological claims make any discernible difference to the world - e.g., would praying for someone's swift recovery from surgery actually cause them to get betters? Whether you want to call that "theological knowledge" or not, it forms a testable hypothesis, and Dawkins and Myers are well-qualified to discuss this. Indeed, anyone is more than qualified to discuss and critique observable claims because they are, naturally, observable. To offer an analogy slightly better than commenting on a football game, take Lord of the Rings or Star Trek. Does one need a full, in-depth knowledge of the entire fandom, backstory, expanded universe, films, books, TV specials and so on, in order to conclude that they are both fictional universes? No. Such a thing is a remarkably early hurdle that anyone can tackle. Likewise with theology, you need very little in-depth knowledge nor qualification to take on these early hurdles such as "are they just pulling bollocks out of their arses?". Now, you can shunt off the rest of theology as being "beyond" this sort of thing, but once you do get beyond that it's no better than arguing how warp engines work and whether a Star Destroyer beat the Enterprise E. Scarlet A.pngmoralModerator 17:21, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

+1. Redchuck.gif ГенгисunbelievingModerator 17:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I hate to upset the sisterhood but Armondikov understands the debate. Dawkins and Myers are scientists and can see that theology tells us little or nothing new about reality. Still Godot hasn't given any links to the "ACTUAL CRITICISMS of theology" which she insists she knows about. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:31, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
" theological claims make any discernible difference to the world - e.g., would praying for someone's swift recovery from surgery actually cause them to get betters?(sic)" Are there many theologians working out of places like Yale, Harvard, Oxford, etc--ie recognized legitimate scholars in the field--making these kinds of claims? JubalHarshaw (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
"theology tells us little or nothing new about reality." Nor does it pretend to. Theology tells us about the inner workings of a particular belief system. It makes no claims relevant to people working outside of that belief system. JubalHarshaw (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
A major problem is that tax money from people outside the belief system is paying the comfortable salaries that theologians get for analysing fantasies. Proxima Centauri (talk) 09:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I suggest a) not assuming that Armondikov is supporting PC, or at least her current text, and b) reading the articles linked in Armondikov's post.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
ADK, I'm not sure I agree at all with your point, if i'm understanding it. We are talking about theology, not a fictional world. for those doing theology, this is not about literature, or fantasy, or how unreal things work, it's about their reality. I don't know if there are people who think star trek is real, but they are not in the majority. The majority of the world thinks some kind of god like thing is real. the majority of western europe thinks "God" is real. To argue that theology is "like studying Lord of the Rings" is to suggest that the people doing the study believe their field to be simply fantasy. They think it's part of philosophy, as it is and has been. When athesits discount theology, that's fine, cause why would they want to study something fake. But when they discount theology FOR BELIEVERS, it's silly. "there's no value in theology, and it should not be a department at university" is just silly. And it's possible I'm missing your point entirely.

Well earlier on we were told that large following doesn't make a difference:-

  1. Now the fact that the majority of humans have irrational religious belief suddenly matters.
  2. Earlier the large atheist following that Myers and Dawkins have was irrelevant.
  3. I see, as so often happens believers matter and atheists don't matter. Proxima Centauri (talk) 09:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
@PC - go to school, study, and do your own friggin' research. The world did not exist (nor does it, in my opinion) on the internet for "links". Read Kierkagaard, read Kant, read Paine, read Liebnitz, read Russell, read Willliam James, hell even Augustine questioned what you can know about god, while writing exactly what you can know about god. Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 17:56, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
RE Are there many theologians working out of places like Yale, Harvard, Oxford, etc--ie recognized legitimate scholars in the field--making these kinds of claims? - No, they're not. But that's the entire point. They don't talk about things that have any observable or meaningful effect, and actively hide what they say from such things (I suggest reading this). Therefore, what they do is no better than discussing fictional worlds because such fictions have no benchmark in objective reality to be compared to - in fact it's worse because they use a certain degree of doublethink in both claiming that these things are real, but not real when it comes to verification. The importance of this "benchmark is objective reality" is that we, as entities with some degree of free will and action, have no control over it and is non-arbitrary. This benchmark constrains our physical expectations and without it all ideas become equally valid for any meaningful definition of "valid". Specifically, we can invoke Last Thursdayism, the Simulation Argument and Flying Spaghetti Monster and all three of these claims have precisely the same level of overall objective validity as mainstream theology. The only difference is that people see big words, fancy academic courses and the fact that "God" has been around for longer and mistake such by-products of an idea's longevity for truth value. They hide their claims behind intellectual waffle, but you don't have to deeply explore this intellectual waffle to notice that claims are being hidden. Hence the analogy of The Emperor's New Clothes as used in the Courtier's Reply: you don't need to read up on invisible silks, nor study the great works of invisible stitching, nor practice for years at the art of cutting patterns from invisible cloth, to notice that the Emperor is standing tackle-out in public.
RE The majority of the world thinks some kind of god like thing is real. the majority of western europe thinks "God" is real. To argue that theology is "like studying Lord of the Rings" is to suggest that the people doing the study believe their field to be simply fantasy. As pointed out above, these are "by-products of an idea's longevity", and are not related to its validity when compared against the benchmark of an objective reality. You're effectively stabbing the argument in the foot here because it implies that if the majority of Western Europe (or any arbitrary population size) believed that Lord of the Rings was real (Tolkein did have pretentions toward it being mythology of the British Isles) then its study in the same serious manner as theology is taken would be valid. But that would be without changing the nature of the God belief to the LOTR belief, all that would change is the argumentum ad populum. This is clearly no way to argue the validity of an academic subject, because it implies we're using a definition of "validity" that is arbitrary and non-useful. This is fine, of course, but then current theologians wouldn't be allowed to cry should their study of God's nature be replaced by a study of Captain Kirk's nature 100 years down the line. But where does that line or reasoning lead us if not to the conclusion that statements like "God exists" cannot be true for any meaningful use of the word "exists"? Scarlet A.pngmoralModerator 11:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
What I have never understood about this argument, is that the only people talking about objective reality, or applying science to religion are atheists and rationalsts. (historically, too). Theologians are saying "this is what is truth, therefore I'm going to study it". Having done it myself, having a father who lived it, I know it's not as dismissable as you want to make it out ot be. And they are not just "by products of longevity", they are in fact very deep seated biological responses to the real world that can in fact be studied. "god" is in our brains, biologically. --Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 13:26, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are deep seated factors in our brains predisposing us to assume an intelligent agent caused something or other when there are only natural causes. For example I personally witnessed a child of about two and a half to three saying, "Mummy somebody cut the moon!" when the moon was half full. This type of thing (excusable in a toddler) doesn't make religion rational or desirable. Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit point 3

"Read Kierkagaard, read Kant, read Paine, read Liebnitz, read Russell, read Willliam James, hell even Augustine" well I'm sure Godot would just love it if I spent 6 months or more reading all that and had less time for refuting religious claims. At the end of all that study unless I reach the same conclusions that Godot reaches Godot will tell me humiliatingly that she thinks I'm an idiot. Proxima Centauri (talk) 09:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Less time for refuting religious claims on the internet, eh? So are you predicting the end of religion on the internet? Will you grind up religion on the internet? Are there any upcoming Operations we should know about? Do you want to tell us about religion and ponies? Is it Waterloo for religion on the internet? You're like the Ken of atheists. Questionable editing skills, and a desire to refute something on the internet that you apparently have no interest in learning about beyond your own narrow understanding. 67.162.220.231 (talk) 18:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm.pngI know theologians and those who provide funds for them believe they are doing something important. That doesn't reduce the problem. Theology diverts finance from potentially useful academic work into what amounts to analysis of fiction. For the moment I feel like a break from editing here and having my work reverted with insults.
I've written a new article somewhere else where my work is valued, See Theology. Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:29, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

6 months? lol. try years. You like to just read these kinds of "atheist lite" summaries of whatever, and say "i've studied religion". Aren't you the one who claims to have "studied" religion for ten years or more. yet you whine that you won't have time to read Kant, Kierkegaard, Hume - how can you claim to have studied religion, if you don't read anything other than about.com?.

Perhaps I need to spend time on The Atheism Pages of Ebonmusings as well, that's more complicated than Atheism About. Still Austin Cline tells me what religion is like today. Atheism About teaches what I need to understand religion today. A second important point, the site is written about 6th Form or 1st Year University level so I can link to the site and be confident most readers can follow what they read there. Kant, Kierkegaard, Hume Paine, Liebnitz, Russell, Willliam James, even Augustine all that would teach me what religion was like from the late Roman Empire to the mid 20th century. If I link to sites about those philosophers readers will be disappointed, few people outside the intellectual Ivory Tower read that kind of stuff. Proxima Centauri (talk) 15:42, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Seriously? No word of a lie here, this is the straight up-truth: Screeds like the one you linked to, and people like you in general, are why I'm not an atheist anymore. The sheer bloody embarrassment that I felt at having my former belief system associated with such hateful, narrow-minded, ignorant, disrespectful-of-so-much-of-your-fellow-humanity displayed there, and by you and so many other hard-on-for-Dawkins, Hitchens-without-the-wit-or-literary-skills wannabees made me want to open my mind, and yes, my heart, to the possibility--not the certainty, not the dogmatic belief--but the possibility--that there might be something of value in a few millenia worth of my fellow human beings' thoughts on the more ephemeral elements of human existence. And I'd like to think it's made me a better person; though I still have my moments of unbridled dickery, I seem to be spending a lot more time loving and a lot less time hating. So if that empty, ignorant screed is your example of how people might be convinced to come over to your "camp" as it were, congratulations, it was a perfect failure, with the exact opposite effect. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
The above is so close to concern trolling; not quite there yet Jubal, although I think you have unrealised talents in this area. It's interesting to note that, from the above, you appear to have become a theist so as to avoid "The sheer bloody embarrassment that I felt at having my former belief system associated with such hateful, narrow-minded, ignorant, disrespectful-of-so-much-of-your-fellow-humanity displayed there". That made me giggle a bit. Tielec01 (talk) 09:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif Proxima Centauri (talk) 09:55, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
"It's interesting to note that, from the above, you appear to have become a theist..." *cough* fallacy of the excluded middle *cough*--ZooGuard (talk) 12:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a "theist." I'm an agnostic. (Read the part where I say: "to the possibility--not the certainty, not the dogmatic belief--but the possibility...") I try to be respectful of the fact that the overwhelming majority of my fellow human beings, contemporary and historical, have understood the world in terms of its relationship with something that lies beyond/outside the realm of everyday experience of mundane reality; as somebody who loves human beings, I can't see the point of thinking that most of them are stupid or ignorant. So I try not to shit all over the vast majority of humanity by ridiculing their closely-held beliefs--beliefs which often have the potential of helping them get through lives that are way more difficult than mine. And I certainly try to not shit all over those people from a position of ignorance, but try to learn as much as I can about those beliefs on their own terms. JubalHarshaw (talk) 12:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit point 4

I used to think that the Lock Ness Monster didn't exist. Then I read all the horrible things that monster deniers say and I didn't want to be part of that so I decided to become an gnostic on the Lock Ness Monster.--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Troll
Goodpost.gif I'm beginning to think the Loch Ness Monster might exist too! Surely I need to spend years steeped in science of the Loch Ness Monster ideally as a professional before I'm in a position to deny any monster claims. What fools we've all been to deny the possibility of a Loch Ness Monster. Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
If you seriously think that belief in something that is obviously a local myth like Nesssie is exactly like a rich, complex, historically- and culturally-contingent phenomenon like religion...you're really not showing yourself to be a particularly intelligent person. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I think you are showing your ignorance of Monster studies and insulting believers.--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
But Nessie is a rich and complex set of beliefs that many rich and complex Scottish men (women also) hold and pass on to their children. How can you insensitively tread on the revered tradition that Scottish communities have been steeped in for a century? You're unfeeling! Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
You know what--thanks for proving my point. Let me condense the conversation for you. YOU: Scorn and ridicule towards people who believe something I don't. ME: Man, I was so sick of all that scorn and ridicule. It really got to me. I decided to re-evaluate some core beliefs because I saw that scorn and ridicule as hateful and narrow-minded, and didn't see it doing much good. YOU: Scorn and ridicule. You know, if your idea of atheism is something grounded in a humanist approach, you don't seem to be doing to well at the whole "human" part right here. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
That's EXACTLY how I feel about the monster! That's why I believe n Him! People like you scorn and ridicule him!--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Wierdstuff, I'm so sorry for you, see how JubalHarshaw pours scorn and ridicule onto your deeply held beliefs!
JubalHarshaw, you think scorn and ridicule are so bad stop pouring scorn and ridicule on atheists who reject your agnostic accommodationist views. You're inconsistent. Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Show me where I've ridiculed anybody for what they believe. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

You said I was (not) "a particularly intelligent person". I feel scorned and ridiculed for my monster beliefs.--Weirdstuff (talk) 20:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
You pour scorn and ridicule over me in many different places on this website and you do it because you disapprove of my poor analytic skills militant atheism. Proxima Centauri (talk) 20:09, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Nope. I do it because of your poor writing skills, your poor analytic skills, and your seeming inability to construct a basic argument. Never once have I said anything about what you actually (don't) believe. Show me where. JubalHarshaw (talk) 20:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
You pick on me because you don't like my beliefs. Proxima Centauri (talk) 20:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Answered above. Now you're just repeating yourself. Do you see me ragging on any other atheists here? If I were inclined to pick on people for their atheism, this is certainly a target-rich environment. Either prove your point or shut it down. JubalHarshaw (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
That was directed at PC, not you. And that's not about her atheism, it's about her poor analytic skills. JubalHarshaw (talk) 20:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit point 5

Does religion helps people get through their lives? That's an assumption that needs proving. See Can Decline in religious belief improve society?. Proxima Centauri (talk) 13:06, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
It's "Loch," bozo. There's a big difference--nobody says horrible things about cryptozoological creatures. Also, your analogy falls apart because it's not what's said about the object of belief that's at stake, but what's said about the people who are doing the believing -- in the case of religion, that means a whole lot of complex, intelligent and feeling human beings. You want to discount that many people as smart and feeling people because they happen to believe something you don't? I don't. I would rather try to engage with those people, their beliefs, and the meaning they create out of those beliefs. People want to be an atheist? I got no problem with that. People want to go a step further and shit all over lots of people because they believe differently? After years and years of playing that game, I got tired of the hate--and led me to change how I think about the big questions. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Nobody doubts that university theologians are intelligent, sometimes sensitive people. Just their beliefs are as implausible as the Loch Ness Monster. Proxima Centauri (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Hey Bozo! Are you another one of those horrible people saying the monster is not real? Don't you realise the solace that belief in the monster brings? It's people like you who made me change my opinion!--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Troll
Does religion helps people get through their lives? That's an assumption that needs proving. See Can Decline in religious belief improve society?. Proxima Centauri (talk) 13:06, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, I can give you loads of anecdotal evidence of people whose faith helped them through bad times, and I can point to a lot of important political and social justice movements (the Civil Rights Struggle, the Abolitionist movement, important parts of the anti-apartheid struggle, the work of liberation theology in Central America, feminist theological stuff, just to name a few) that gave people a language/an organizing principle/a sense of possibility around which to organize and struggle. Do I think it's the only way for positive change to come about? No. Do I recognize that King, Malcolm, Tutu and a bunch of other crucial figures drew on--and inspired others--with messages grounded in faith? That is undoubted. JubalHarshaw (talk) 13:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
It's actually NOT an assumption that needs proving, PC. You need only stop being a biggot to see it's a very real issue. Religion helps most people get through their day, just like philo helps others. Most people find life hard, the struggle hard, death hard. religion gives answers to all the things that make no sense to everyday joe. Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 13:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Religion has done both good and harm. I don't know any reasonable people who deny that.

From my 30th year on I have increasingly regarded the church as an institution which defended such evils as slavery, color caste, exploitation of labor and war. (W.E.B. DuBois) 9 Great Freethinkers and Religious Dissenters in History

The plural of anecdote isn't data. Careful analysis is needed and finding out whether religion does more good or more harm on balance is likely to be hard. That could well depend on which religion. I keep repeating there are plenty of religious websites and other media proclaiming the value of religion and that shouldn't go unquestioned. I wrote that here for example. Religion should be criticised among other reasons because religious criticism encourages religious authorities to improve what does harm.

Religion doesn't help most people get through their day, in the UK most people treat religion as a side issue though a sizable minority of British people take religion seriously. Many are helped by religion, others suffer through pressure to follow harmful religious dogma. For example fear of hell doesn't help people come to terms with their own mortality or the death of a loved one. People often talk loudly about how religion is a comfort to them when it is. People tend to keep quiet about their own sins or the sins of a loved one and the damning consequences they fear due to those sins. Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

If this were a serious argument I'd suggest that everyone defines their terms. Jubal look up what Agnostic means (I'm also an agnostic and I don't believe a god(s) exist). ZooGuard I'm mystified by why you bring up agosticism, since I know you understand the meaning of the word, perhaps you were trying to tell me that it was presumptious to assume that Jubal was a theist simply because he claimed not to be an atheist? If so, meh, I plead guilty, though with the extenuating circumstance that I qualified the statement. Godot you are wasting your time, but to proceed you and Proxima probably need to agree on what "Theology" is and how to measure the "usefulness" of an idea or theory. Tielec01 has spoken <stamps staff on ground>Tielec01 (talk) 13:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Agnostic: "One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable." (OED, 2nd ed). So I don't know what's "out there", if anything, and since I know I can't know, I don't argue that "nothing" is out there. I also don't argue that "something" is out there. I do argue that since most of us believe that something is out there, you can't really know much about the human experience without respectfully engaging with the ideas they hold close. I'm not sure why you thought I was unclear on the concept. JubalHarshaw (talk) 13:46, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

RE: The DuBois quote---I am shocked--shockedto read that all Black people and all social activists don't think alike on complex issues. Proxima, you've really opened my eyes with that. Guess I'm going to have to reconsider, after all. (JubalHarshaw, too lazy to log in).

Edit Point 7

Re Careful analysis is needed and finding out whether religion does more good or more harm on balance is likely to be hard. - isn't this argument from consequence. Whether religion has or has not done any harm is irrelevant. Randy In Boise (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant to what? It's certainly irrelevant to weather or not God exists. But I'm not sure that was you point.--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:47, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, it's irrelevant to the "truth of religion question." And that's not really even an interesting question for me. It's highly relevant to the "wanting to understand people's beliefs and what they do with them" question. which is an interesting question for me. JubalHarshaw (talk) 19:48, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, so what does Randy maintain his point is relevant to? Incidentally, I would have thought that the truth value of a philosophy would be important. At least for those who are going to believe it.--Weirdstuff (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't know about your first point, I'll leave that to Randy. As to your second point, if your goal is to understand people and how they live in the world and make meaning of it, the "truth value" of their philosophy is of secondary importance. What's important is trying to engage with those beliefs on their own terms and to understand what people do with them. I don't believe in any religion,myself, so I don't have anything to evaluate the truth value of. JubalHarshaw (talk) 20:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Cool.--Weirdstuff (talk) 20:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Courtier's Reply

I see it's already been posted, but let me post it again, because it bears repeating. Quoting JubalHarshaw: "He has no real training, as far as I can tell, in the issue at hand--he's a lab guy with some personal opinions on stuff outside the lab. So what makes him "a noted critic" on the question of theology?" Reply: Courtier's_Reply full text. In short, any fool can dismiss theology because it's intellectually bankrupt and empty. I've studied theology even less than Myers, and I am more than knowledgeable enough to refute theology wholesale. Disclaimer: Insofaras theology is literary analysis, then it might be "legit". But then it would be called "literary analysis" or some such, and not theology. LiberalOfAnUnknownVariant (talk) 12:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

As a student of theology, my problem with Courtier's reply is that it fits only if what you are trying to prove is something simplistic like "there is no god", or "theology is not based on science" or "all religion is made up and bad". It doesn't fit it you are actually addressing theolgoy, any more than I can actually talk about physics. Seriously. Look at the idea that (if i have this at all right) an electron is some how connected to all electrons in the entire universe, and by disturbing one, it alters the balance of every other one. To a non trained person, that is just bunk. I mean it goes against anything logical. but with math and science training, it is the single best explanation of something or the other. "I've not even studied it, but i can tell it's bunk", is frankly, BS from any sense other than "because i don't believe in a god, it must be bunk". Courtier is one of the weakest and most arrogant arguments to come out of this whole "I think your topic is lame", because it flys in the face of actual academic discourse. -- and again, no theologian worth his weight in anything, is claiming theology is scientific, or straight forward, any more than philo is.--Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 14:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
if there really is hidden value in theology that non-academically trained outsiders can't see then which theology has this hidden value? Roman Catholics dismiss Protestant theology and it goes the other way too. Christians dismiss Buddhist theology and so it goes on. Theologians who criticise Dawkins for not studying theology should if they are consistent study Buddhist theology, Islamic theology, Hindu theology, Zoroastrian theology etc etc before they dismiss all these religions. Proxima Centauri (talk)
That's kind of how it works in the humanities: scholars who favor a race-based analysis get called out by Marxist scholars for not paying attention to class dynamics. Marxists get called out be dependency-school types. etc. etc. JubalHarshaw (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
The Courtier's Reply post was a reaction to a specific kind of criticism of The God Delusion, and (New) Atheist writings in general. It's not a stand-alone argument, despite the attempts of some Proxima to quote-mine Dawkins and Myers. Myers tends to mention theology only when some theologian says something stupid.
Another problem that seems to pester the "debate" is that both you and Proxima are conflating scholarly, academic theology with the more general practice/corpus of writing. Not everyone talking about theology is a "theologian worth their wight in anything."--ZooGuard (talk) 15:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
When did I quote mine Dawkins or Myers? Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
True. A friend of mine who's a philosophy prof hates to tell people what he does out of fear that they will reply with something like: "I have a philosophy. Let me tell you about it." And just like not all people talking about theology need to be taken seriously as theologians, not everyone talking about, say geology, is a geologist worth their weight in anything. "Flood geologists," for example. That's why we don't tend to take the opinions of people who aren't steeped in the science, ideally as professionals or at the very least as well-read amateurs who accept the basic premises of the science, very seriously. It's one thing to criticize a geological theory, or finding, or approach from within the game--that's part of what science does. It's another thing to try to attempt to throw out an academic approach and everything associated with it because you don't think it should be doing what it does. JubalHarshaw (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
(edit con, reply to zoo)But isn't that the whole point? Some many people around these parts are, rightfully, obsessed with definitions and being specific about what we are talking. Yet here with "theology" it's anything goes? When people talk about theology as some lay practice, they aren't talking about theology. When Jane sat in a tree wistfully whining "Oh Tarzan, is this all there is to life", she's not really doing philosophy, for all lay people might think she is. I guess that's why I've found this whole discussion (not here, specifically, but in our Atheist worlds in general) so frustrating. hearing anyone say "Theology is worthless" and "I've read hardly any and I can tell it's bunk", just leaves me looking back, pretty floored by intellectuals who hold that position. I don't care that Dawkins finds nothing useful in theolgoy, any more than it would bother me that you, or ADK think it's silly drivel. It bugs me when the next step of "it's not academic", "it's got no value for humanity" etc., is pulled out. Cause that point is clearly false.Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 16:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Another point that both you and Proxima are missing is that the current "argument" has more than two "sides" and not every defense of Dawkins/Myers/The Courtier's Reply is automatically a defense of Proxima's position (whatever it is - one of the dangers of being bad at writing is that people have to guess what exactly you mean).--ZooGuard (talk) 16:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I'm just on my own side here. Nothing more, nothing less. Scarlet A.pngmoralModerator 20:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Are you ever NOT on your "own side" adk!  :-) (said with love) I've not figured out what we are even arguing about, since there are like 6 different "sides" going on. I was originally only talking THIS ARTICLE. somehow it blew up. who knows. who cares. free beer if it makes you happy.
re "hidden theology". Prox, there is no hidden theology. Again, you get most of your information from Atheists, which in and of itself is fine. But when you do so, you are hearing their bias, and not understanding that it's like me saying PostModernism is stupid. It is stupid, but only becasue I don't understand it. Not because it, in and of itself, is stupid. There are critics of post modernism who say "this is stupid", and they read it, and other philo. These are the kinds of people I take seriously when criticizing theology. those who are seeped in it, or in religious philo in general. and there are plenty of them. Your comment about "one should have to study all these other thologies" is again, missing the point. Theology is not about proving you are right and others are wrong. It's about what you study when you KNOW you are right. You don't need to worry about Buddhism, cause you aren't doing buddhist theology, you are doing Christian theology. It's a matter of starting point, and topic of study. --Green mowse.pngGodotrien ne marcherait 16:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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