Forum:This site is cheapened considerably by its bias.

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(At what point was the "I shall go elsewhere" threat carried out?)
(At what point was the "I shall go elsewhere" threat carried out?)
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::I suspect that he may be waiting for his nanny to pick his toys up and put them back in his pram. Waaaahhhhh! [[User:ProblemChimp|ProblemChimp]] ([[User talk:ProblemChimp|talk]]) 22:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 
::I suspect that he may be waiting for his nanny to pick his toys up and put them back in his pram. Waaaahhhhh! [[User:ProblemChimp|ProblemChimp]] ([[User talk:ProblemChimp|talk]]) 22:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 
::Damn near sounds like a borderline personality disorder at this point. [[User:Space Turbo|Space Turbo]] ([[User talk:Space Turbo|talk]]) 07:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 
::Damn near sounds like a borderline personality disorder at this point. [[User:Space Turbo|Space Turbo]] ([[User talk:Space Turbo|talk]]) 07:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 +
:Awwww, he really did leave :( [[User:Space Turbo|Space Turbo]] ([[User talk:Space Turbo|talk]]) 22:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:36, 5 December 2014

Hi, I have very little experience with Wiki site editing, or this site, so apologies if this post breaches site guidelines, etc.

Having used your site a few times in order to find descriptive explanations of various fallacies, I have only become increasingly frustrated by how it is worded, in every instance I have discovered, to specifically target certain groups.

When I look for a description of logic or reasoning, I am looking for something which is Not produced as if logic is a loaded gun designed to single out and shame particular groups.

In the main, arguments involving religious disputes tend to feature far more highly than is welcome in the example cases.

It makes it look as if reason was far from the intentions of the people producing the site and what was nearer to their intentions was using the site as a tool to intensify prejudice against religious groups.

In my opinion, we already have more than enough anti-religious rhetoric doing the rounds without adopting a policy which somewhat amounts to advocating anti-religion being taught, especially as if logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.

Why not begin to rewrite your pages to make the examples muti-purpose and draw attention to the fact that fallacies are fallacies irrespective of the core beliefs of the person presenting. Especially since, as it is, it becomes something which helps to perpetuate the myth that merely by being atheist you win a blanket insurance policy against stupidity.

In future abstracted examples, not loaded examples, would be most welcome.— Unsigned, by: ‎194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs

Oh, no. We have a generally pro-atheism slant, but no illusions that there aren't plenty of problematic things prominent(and not so prominent) atheists say and believe. You won't be the first and you won't be the last to believe that we're a great wiki all except that, one, thing. The bias isn't going away, and none of us intend to contribute towards biases against religious people. We have articles about that sort of thing. We don't like religious beliefs, by and large(but we have a few active editor believers), but I think we try pretty hard to separate that from religious people. Ikanreed (talk) 17:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion we're more about comedy than providing information. We mock anything that deserves mocking although we try to mock beliefs rather than people (exceptions being the more vocal cranks, if you say something loud enough you can't complain if others complain about it.) In short go to Wikipedia for facts and come here for a laugh.Samstr (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, a little, but it's also the case that we intend to be a legitimate source for deconstruction of bad ideas. Wikipedia exists to tell you about ideas and facts, their history and criticism. We exist to show you why some ideas just don't work. The tonal result is often one of mockery, because a lot of ideas are just that bad. Ikanreed (talk) 17:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Fair enoughSamstr (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, that may well describe your position but in my view certainly does nothing to excuse it. As if you would want to, of course. I might come back later to discuss the pros and cons of the RWiki position which, on the face of it, seems weak, falling a long way short of the ideal, and leaving too much to be desired. For the time being though, your reasons are sufficiently unconvincing, and your decision to stick with it sufficiently insistent, for me to simply elect to search elsewhere for generalised examples of the type I can actually use.

Your zero edits and contributions will be missed. Have a nice trip. Ikanreed (talk) 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
The thing about religion is it is not rational, being based on articles of faith and subjective personal revelation. It's fine to believe, but it's not fine to proclaim it makes sense to. King Skeleton (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Well there's nothing like a spat of juvenile backbiting to reinforce my first impressions. Nor, for that matter, the idiotic misconception of the content of my complaint. So much for rationale.

Feel free to go to the logic sections of TVTropes instead, then, which are routinely cleansed of actual examples, with the highlight being a page on burden of proof which is actually a defence of the fallacy in question. King Skeleton (talk) 03:13, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Do they also have a page on false-dilemma?— Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs

Telling you to sod off isn't a false dilemma unless you can simultaneously sod off and still be here, genius. King Skeleton (talk) 20:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah! Going straight for the jugular there I see. Giving voice to the general communal concenus of willingness to cause avoidable offense. To give you your due, strictly speaking, you have a good defence on one part: It wasn't strictly a false-dilemma, however, I was riding on the implicit Implication that my alternative to RationalWiki is TVTropes. However, before you weigh in with embittered sarcasm next time, you might want to clarify, for yourself, the difference between the concepts of false dilemma and mutual exclusivity. Had the alternatives you offered intended to limit to me the choice between just two false alternatives, which do not express well my range of other options, for example "It's either here or TVTropes", then the fallacy Is a false-dilemma. You appear to be confused with Mutual Exclusivity. Here there is perfectly adequate explanation of false-dilemma on RationalWiki:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma

I didn't immediately find an description of Mutual Exclusivity on this website but there is a perfectly good description of why that is the example you give on Wikipedia. To save time, you need only to read the first sentence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_exclusive_events

I will resist the temptation to be drawn into a chimp fight on this occassion, but if you would rather than have a discussion just devolve into a chip-fight trade of "You're stoopid" insults then I should warn you that I am pretty good at being an asshole too.

194.75.238.182 (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC) ( Four tildes. Is this right? )

List some examples of bias or go away. King Skeleton (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
@King Skelton: Here's that link on false dilemma again. Perhaps this time you should try to read it? It really is a perfectly adequate description for the purposes of this discussion: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
List some examples of bias or go away. King Skeleton (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Abstract examples are a terrible substitute when perfectly relevant real-word examples are available. Admittedly, abstract examples have their uses, like when trying to sell something (or to build populist support) without offending anyone's delicate sensibilities. But that's not what this site is about. --Inquisitor (talk) 04:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

They are? Do you have any useful examples for which a real-world example cannot be at least equalled with a more generalised abstraction with improved generality of purpose and at least parity of explanatory power? I'd like to see at least one.— Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs

But I thought this was supposed to be DictionaryWiki. Fonzie (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, we already have more than enough anti-religious rhetoric doing the rounds without adopting a policy which somewhat amounts to advocating anti-religion being taught, especially as if logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.
  1. Your opinion? What makes you think that your opinion should carry any particular weight on this wiki?
  2. In my[hee] opinion there can be no such thing as too much anti-religious rhetoric.
  3. What's wrong with advocating the teaching of anti-religion?
  4. Religion is illogical therefore logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.
If you don't like it, tough! Scream!! (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I'd like to argue that religion isn't inherently illogical, on the basis that logic just processes the relationships of assumptions to conclusions. It doesn't actually disallow making flagrantly false or unreasonable assumptions. Ikanreed (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Many versions of God seem to run into logical contradictions though if you consider all the ramifications of the "omni ..." characteristics.--Coffee (talk) 21:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I dunno: a priori versus a postiori and all that. I feel the moment you start bringing observation into it the problems mount like a interstate pileup when in snows in Atlanta. But to strictly suppose a universe where an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient entity exists isn't unreasonable. You can compose that logically. It just isn't the same as the world we live it. The problem of evil depends on there being evil. Ikanreed (talk) 22:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

The difficulty with religion and logic isn’t about whether or not religion starts with assumptions (axioms) and logically develops conclusions, but whether or not the set of religious assumptions is consistent in the logical sense, i.e., doesn’t result in internal contradictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistency). This can be determined in the negative (that is, not consistent) easily (think of the 0=1 argument game) but can be impossible to prove in the positive (that is, consistent). The vast majority of religious thought involves assumptions (axioms) that on simple logical reflection lead to contradictions (think distant starlight and YEC). This is a fundamental problem and is why many arguments sound anti-religious, but are in fact pointing out the contradictions. — Unsigned, by: JoeEric / talk / contribs

All religions are based on some guy just saying something and convincing other people that it is true. I see no reason to give it any greater weight than anyone else's opinion until it is backed up with demonstrable facts. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. Moderator 14:09, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
This thread:
OP: "RationalWiki hurt my feelings therefore they are biased!"
RW: "Okay, how are we biased?"
OP: "Why you gotta be so mean to religion I just wanna be-LIEVE!"
RW: "Good for you - we're still going to critically evaluate the subject and mock its logical failures."
OP: "Why you gotta be so mean and immature?! I thought this was RationalWiki!
Did I miss anything? Space Turbo (talk) 17:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Were you summarizing this discussion in particular or literally every discussion an indignant new user brings to this site? "Why are you mocking libertarianism, it's a political belief!" or today "Why are you mocking anti-GMO nuttery, it's just nature!" Ikanreed (talk) 19:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. As appears to be the general ethos of the site thus far, clearly the majority view here is it's far better to try to make offensive remarks than just about anything else the site might stand for.

That isn't what's interesting though. Speaking as somebody who has used the internet and it's various chat rooms, forums and Usenet groups since www.symbolics.com was the best site on the web I have noticed the gradual erosion of the principle of connecting intelligent institutions as market forces push costs down and ease of use up it has become the very best ongoing example of the "chimps with typewriters" principle.

This means it serves many subsidiary purposes, including one as a worldwide crèche for anybody with antisocial personality disorder and a welfare cheque to while away their days trying to upset and offend.

You're certainly not the worst offenders the web has to offer, you will be totally apathetic to hear, but it does lead to the "Given a sufficient number of typewriters, a sufficient number of primates will eventually produce Rational Wiki".

Right, so with an apology to those above who wrote serious responses, that just leaves me to sit back and wait for another bout of waiting for you to throw your own faecal matter at the enclosure windows again then? How intelligent!


Oh, and if you're planning to try to sharpen your tongue again, try harder. The offence oriented among you are less effective at causing upset than those magnetic insects gift shops sell in a little perspex case. So, come on now, put the full weight of that considerable Rational Wiki intellect into really trying to hurt my feelings... Go on.. . I'll be checking back and you had better be really offensive or I will be very, very dissappointed.

Oh, sorry, I almost forgot the four tildes 2.96.101.230 (talk) 20:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

oh, if you could only hear yourself. Deary, deary me. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 20:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
"You're all biased against religious folks! Also I'm going to stereotype a bunch of (let's be honest, we actually do have a class problem here) mostly middle class atheists as welfare cheats, because I've only got so many things in this here bag of rightwing canned stereotypes." Ikanreed (talk) 20:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
It needs more of "'big words' strung as if they're vomited from a dictionary that makes my argument sound sophisticated". LEFTYGREENMARIO 21:19, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
"I have noticed the gradual erosion of the principle of connecting intelligent institutions as market forces push costs down and ease of use up it has become the very best ongoing example of the "chimps with typewriters" principle."
"This means it serves many subsidiary purposes, including one as a worldwide crèche for anybody with antisocial personality disorder and a welfare cheque to while away their days trying to upset and offend."
What?
You haven't contributed to this discussion whatsoever aside from complaining in incomprehensible, pretentious language, poop references, and comparisons to brainless primates. I don't think anyone is going to respond to you seriously, even after they decipher your peculiar style of writing. RationalWiki makes fun of basically anything, but it especially mocks fundamentalism, which a part is stating that religious events actually did happen. Also, a lot of times, religion is linked with superstition and pseudoscience, which are subjects RationalWiki aims to cover. "Religious bashing", which is the subject of this topic apparently, is then going to be here. LEFTYGREENMARIO 21:07, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

OK, that's Doxy's best? Sad. Quick. But sad, and boring. I am not offended at all. Ok, off you go... Doxy was first... Surely at least one of you can come up with better than that? 2.96.101.230 (talk) 20:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

At what point was the "I shall go elsewhere" threat carried out?

If you're going to quit a community, do it. Ikanreed (talk) 20:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

He can't. His air of disdainful superiority requires an audience - even one as contemptuous as us. He needs someone to feel superior to and, for the moment, we're serving that role. Without Sir Toby Belch Malvolio is nothing. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
I suspect that he may be waiting for his nanny to pick his toys up and put them back in his pram. Waaaahhhhh! ProblemChimp (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Damn near sounds like a borderline personality disorder at this point. Space Turbo (talk) 07:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Awwww, he really did leave :( Space Turbo (talk) 22:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
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