RationalWiki:Saloon bar

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This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
Guinnesssmiley.gif For previous conversations see the automagic barchives. Guinnesssmiley.gif

What is going on?

The Bar
(talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (hic)

RationalWiki:Forum
  1. Climate news (16:11, 18 Apr 2017)
  2. GMO foods (04:28, 14 Apr 2017)
  3. Would human extinction be such a bad thing? (18:44, 27 Mar 2017)
  4. Argument for the existence of limited god (09:57, 26 Mar 2017)
  5. Is there any hope (00:48, 25 Mar 2017)
  6. A theocratic movement in the U.S. is gaining power (00:34, 23 Mar 2017)
To do list

Contents


Trump: Should I laugh or be scared he is the President?

The way Trump (the Chump) is running things seems to be something to laugh at and something to be scared of. Which should I feel?--That Undead Centrist Schizophrenic (talk) 01:19, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Scared. This person has destruction at his fingertips and he doesn't seem like a very responsible or competent person. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
@RZ94: You frame this question like the two are contradictory. Laugh because you are scared. Know that, even if we are annihilated in nuclear fire, the Trump administration made for excellent snark bait while it lasted.
If, however, you want a more serious answer, I'd agree with LeftyGreenMario. RoninMacbeth (talk) 03:59, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Wait til Gingrich's book about Trump comes out in June. Gingrich says Trump is the first president who was never elected to anything or came from the military. So he's got 50 years life experience different from previous presidents and politicians, and you can't really expect him to act like them. Hopefully in the future there will be more people coming from outside government. So he's sort of a trailblazer as far as expectations go. nobs 07:54, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
'coming from outside government' haha that's hilarious. Its not like he's a man of the people. He was born into wealth with all the arrogance and entitlement that breeds. He's not trailblazing he's the modern equivalent of aristocracy, a continuation of how the worlds been run for a thousand years. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
He's the quintessential anti-politician. He's broken the monopoly traditional politicians have on the office. He can't be expected to think, behave, and talk like them. I'm sure other non-politician presidents in the future will hold different views, as likewise we will have someday a black president more representative of African-Americans' struggles and ambitions than that low-life piece of shit Obama was. nobs 19:24, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
hes lying, delusional, and dangerously incompetent. sounds like a traditional politician to me. you really buy into that 'anti-politician' bullshit? thats hilarious. i thought that was just to feed the proles while he fucks them. the only difference between him and the traditional politicians is inability to get any his bills through. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Someday you'll have a Mark Cuban or Oprah Winfrey serving in the office. They'll have the same dedicated cult-like follows, make the same missteps and misstatements, and be faced with the same opposition with gritted teeth accustomed to business-as-usual lying policians and politics. My point is, we should all be rejoicing the professional political class's monopoly on the White House has been broken (of which there is a consensus among voters of both parties and has been for a long time), and tailor our views of support or opposition accordingly. nobs 00:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Rejoicing? If your logic is correct, then Mexico has lost track of how many populist/anti-politician presidents we've had in the last couple of years. Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 04:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
While the idea of someone from the outside shattering the iron grip the political elite had on our previous elections sounds comforting, I really don't think it makes up for damage Trump is poised to do. Sounds petty even, like a desperate excuse to avoid feeling nauseated that we have a clown behind our nuclear arsenal and climate policies regardless if this clown is a political elite or not. I'm all for a nice challenge of the elite, but it's got to come from someone that knows what he's doing. It's like proclaiming Marine Le Pen to be symbolic of cracking the glass ceiling even though she has reckless and terrible policies she'd like to impose. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:22, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

--Rbaja (talk) 21:10, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

black invention myth debunked says right winger

This discussion was moved here from RationalWiki talk:Saloon bar#black invention myth debunked says right winger.

Alright so i am browsing the internet looking at videos related to simone biles. I made the mistake of venturing into the jungle that is know as the youtube comment sections where i find a flame war. so here's this alt-right winger named im awesome with a pepsi as his avatar and he says

"youtube or google "Black invention myths debunked". The peanut butter one was done by a white man some 10 years prior to the black guy. Lights are definitely not a black invention."

For further context the video is in that link. you shouldn't have to scroll to far to see the wars unless your 20 years late https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqds04bRxQM

have any of you guys heard of this?— Unsigned, by: Rbaja / talk / contribs

That's actually right. George Washington Carver did not invent peanut butter, but the work he did do with peanuts was far more important.Teurastaja (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah thanks for making me search for and find the ugliest web page I've see in years: tightrope dot cc slash Black-Invention-Myths. Leuders (talk) 14:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with leuders. That website is awfully outdated by at least 25 years— Unsigned, by: Rbaja / talk / contribs

And by ugly I mean racist. Leuders (talk) 16:14, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I always saw it as a crime what we did to George Washington Carver- he had a very important impact in the post-civil war black population. I never learned about how he helped a bunch of people fight hunger and grow their communities, instead we just learned the covertly racist lesson "the best thing a black person ever invented was peanut butter" and that's not even freaking true. Hentropy (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
seems like a positive that he didnt invent peanut butter. that stuff is vile. just the smell of it turns my stomach. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:18, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Big Brother (TV show) with Trump, Putin and Kim among the contestants (who else could be included?) would be 'interesting.' 31.51.113.89 (talk) 21:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

"Right side of history"

I saw this argument today somewhere for women's rights. While I have zero issues with advocating for women's rights, telling a person to support women's rights so they can be on the "right side of history" is just a bad argument. Better arguments can be made; like don't be a fucking asshole for example. The aforementioned argument speculative of what future views in a society will be and what the current issue will be seen as in the future. Is this topic worthy of an article?—127.0.0.1 (talk) 03:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I think we could extend it to overall idea of a myth of progress, a very common ideology is some form or another that says civilization is always 'going forward' and can never 'go backwards.' Lord Aeonian (talk) 04:08, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
A bad argument to rationalists and wonks who want debate the substantive issues all night long, for sure. I wouldn't suggest arguing like that on the internet. But it can be an effective argument for some audiences- the people who opposed women's rights and civil rights in the 60s look like villains today, and no one wants to be that person. One of the mistakes a lot of activists make is not effectively "reading the room" and trying to tailor different arguments to different audiences. The history argument should never under any circumstances be the only argument made, though. Hentropy (talk) 04:18, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The "reading the room to adjust the argument" is spot on, and incidentally Katharine Hayhoe mentioned that in her New Yorker radio interview:[1] start by getting people to agree with you, after that you can add challenging ideas. Bongolian (talk) 08:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
This probably could be profitably added to our article on progress. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 16:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Can Marine Le Pen break the glass ceiling? nobs 22:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
She'll break a lot of shit when she starts WWIII for realz this time. Hentropy (talk) 00:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Isn't it France's turn to start the next world war? Germany's had the last two. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 02:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe her, May, and Putin can form the New Entente and Merkel can put on one of those pointy helmets, contemplating what to do when Hungary invades Serbia for no reason. WWI doesn't get enough attention, is my point. Hentropy (talk) 04:43, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I think its about time the US is in at the start of a world war instead of joining in at half time. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Le Pen has her secret army of women standing up for wom3n's rights. It's about time. We need more Rosa ParksWikipedia's W.svg standing up against shariah. What's next? Terror attacks on polling places? nobs 00:10, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Same problem with Pascal's wager It doesn't matter the cause if your justification is bullshit. But if I wanted to tear feminism down I'd have a harder time because God is hard to prove and seems to have no real effect. At least feminism stands for something that could work. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 06:56, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Feminism is like Islam; (a) nobody knows what it is, and (b) you got moderate believers and hardcore assholes. nobs 07:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Not a great job. But Feminism is not like Islam, because one is a radical response to societal injustice and the other justifies itself with a magic wizard. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 07:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Islam was founded as a response to social injustice (JahiliyyahWikipedia's W.svg. Infanticide, for example, was rampant. Islam was meant to civilize the ignorant who practiced social injustice, same as it does today). What, you think this generation is something special? that the human race had to wait twenty centuries after Christ to invent or discover social injustice? nobs 08:10, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I guess not, but you're hardly defending anything. Yes, social justice is a consistently current thing, co-opted by groups. That doesn't make it wrong, especially shows it ain't right, and it categorically cannot make current social morality movements a religion, except they should be and they should respect each other because people. Wait, I meant to say is nobs a liberal? Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
At somepoint in recent years - I don't know when it was (probably before Obama, maybe) we crossed the Rubicon. Old notions, still taught in text books and widely held as liberal and conservative have fallen away. And what's emerging bares scant resemblance to either. Yes, there are deep down basic precepts in each, but they are easily forgotten or compromised in a world that's changing too fast for people to keep up with.
Take User:Conservative, for instance. He's stuck on a 1970s sermon by Jerry Falwell that secularization is the big enemy, hence 'desecularization' means Christian revival. The hell it does. Preaching the gospel means Christian revival, which he conveniently ignores, while he races down the road to praying to Mecca five times a day and worshipping a rock. And it's not like the bible he touts dorsn't warn him of this.
Or look at the anti-nationalists who accuse Trump of Treason. Only a person who believes in national borders would call somebody else a traitor. Hypocricy? No. This is the only criticism leveled at Trump with chance to stick. And they are committed and really believe it.
We're going thru a mass confusion stage, but what emerges at the other end won't bare any resemblance to the things we've known. nobs 10:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Welcome to every other point in the history of anything. I think that was your point?
My points are somehow now 1) Feminism bares no resemblance to Islam, 2) Trump is a national disgrace who is breaking the law and ignoring the terms and conditions of holding the highest executive office in the US, both implied and explicit (tax returns to running international business).
It's not an age of confusion about the facts, because we have them. And we can verify them even if some people choose not to. If it's an age of confusion, it's because we're confused what to do with people like Trump. I like you but how far off the rails are we and to what end? Gaul Dernitt (talk) 17:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Feminism is a cult phase that can't possibly survive two decades of Islamic dominance.
There is no compulsion to share one's tax information. That violates all the sacred privacy rights Americans hold dear. nobs 19:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Nobs, your first point was feminism is similar to Islam, then you went on saying that apparently social justice was not a thing of this generation. But somehow recently they succeeded more. The point is that Islam was meant to address a supposed injustice tracing back to Abraham and a disowned son, feminism about concrete inequality. I also have qualms about the extremist sjw degeneration, of course, because of their rigidity and the embarrassing strawman they serve to reactionaries. I'm curious about your other point, about what's coming on, as you say it bears little resemblance to liberal and conservative cathegories. I'd say though there is a quite strong reactionary component though, somehow revalued, because they think the Islam radicalization is an effect of the liberal society, but Islam is also feared because of being a sexist, non secularized political religion, which also Christianity used to be. Islam immigrants though used to be more light in their faith and more secularized. Imho the sjw degeneration is an effect of the path chosen by the political left, when it has been coopted by the establishment, which always was at its vertices to an extend. Such degeneration has watered down the economical and exploitative aspect of society, focusing on welfare and the (rightly due, though) civil rights. They also romanticized the immigration, doing little to address the exploitative component of using the to devalue the workforce. Because yes melting pot is a nice concept but not without a project, a sense of unity for a resistance against exploitation. Then the geopolitical aspects of aggression, war, destablization of middle east, further fed the anti western sentiment.--78.15.232.220 ([User talk:78.15.232.220|talk]]) 16:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Look at Macron, for example, from "a fringe left" party in France, where the center supposedly has collapsed. He's running on cutting the corporate tax rate and reducing public sector jobs. That sounds like Trump or Reagan that French socialists are voting for. Then in the US, you have extreme Tea Partiers voting to protect Obamacare and rejecting Trumpism.
Politically speaking, these are not a reversal of roles, these are new crossover coalitions being formed. But underneath it all, there are ideological shifts, 'cause frankly, nobody believes or adheres to the old ideologies anymore. The brlief systems have either been discredited or proven ineffective.
I spent much of today listening to a Jewish lawyer defending the Daily Stormer on free speech grounds in a lawsuit brought by the SPLC. To sum it up, Daily Stormer did exactly what others groups have done to Milo Yankovich, Ann Coulter, David Horowitz, Bill O'Reiily and a host of others.
As these ideological shifts are crystallizing (which can happen overnight or over decades), some people may want to define themselves by their percieved enemies. IMO, this not only is a weak basis for a new ideology, it can overlook the fact everyone's belief system is in flux. These are the people and groups most prone to violence out of anger cause their world is turned upside down.
So how do you soothe the anxieties of people who feel left behind economically or as the result of an election? By stoking their fears and prejudices? nobs 00:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Appeal to identity

I was working on Blaire White. Almost all of the comments in her defense point to her trans status. This seems to be a fallacious argument made by both right and left. Indeed, Wikipedia's entry for Bulverism includes an entire section on the "appeal to identity" as a method to discredit people (as a kind of poisoning the well). Yet in my experience the fallacy is often aimed, not at discrediting a person, but instead supporting that person's opinion (as a kind of appeal to authority).

Does this merit its own page? FuzzyCatPotato!™ (talk/stalk) 21:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds a little similar to the friend argument but not quite.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 23:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
It is increasingly common but has always been around, specifically with female anti-feminists, black social conservatives, and figures like Milo before his self-implosion. Might be helpful to at least compile a list of the people who regularly employ this argument. It's kinda double edged as well, though, as lefty activists also employ it fallaciously. Hentropy (talk) 01:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Might be like an emotional appeal since it relies on the baggage of the mistreatment of minorities as a distraction and an easy to way to defend, and it doesn't actually evaluate the merit of the argument. It assumes that just because a person is a minority it automatically means the person cannot spout arguments demeaning to the minority groups the person represents (like a woman can't be anti-feminist). That's obviously fallacious, and the thing is, a donkey-cavity is a donkey-cavity no matter if the arguments demean the donkey-cavity's personal characteristics. If we don't have a page like this, wouldn't hurt to create one. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Absolutely, add it. A fallacy article seems apt as a non-political space in which to question the basic legitimacy of talking down to individual human beings as if they were somehow reducible to (or "responsible for") their gender, or sex, or ethnicity, or disability... etc. I mean, I can't be the only one here who finds it highly disconcerting to see how mainstream "calling people" on their skin color has become in certain circles. Actively fanning the flames of the toxic ingroup/outgroup bias innate to the apaloid human brain is most unwise. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
This seems like suitable content for a page, but what should we call it? Samstr (talk) 01:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Results from the Limerick Contest

First, I want to thank everyone who participated. When I started it a month ago, I had no idea that people would actually want to participate. It's nice to see that so many had the St. Patrick's Day Spirit, even in April.

Second, time to announce the winner(s). In first place, with twenty-two votes, is our great and powerful protector, the Goat! Give it up for the Goat, everyone! Quickly, before He turns His wrath upon the site!

In second place, with sixteen votes, is everyone. Yes, if you participated at all, you won second place! Because it turns out, having fun is all that matters! Well, that and not pissing off the Goat...or Trent...

In third place, with twelve votes, is User:Reverend Black Percy!

Honorable mentions are: User:David Gerard, User:RobSmith, User:Smerdis of Tlön, User:DiamondDisc1, and Donald Trump ('cause fuck it, why not?).

Once again, thanks to everyone who participated! RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So does that mean RBP is locked out of 2nd place? What about the honorable mentions? Narky SawtoothNarky.png (Nyar~) 07:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, in terms of set theory, I'm already included in "everyone who participated". Th hug.gif I also think nobs deserves a little credit for his Bannon limerick. Regardless, props to everyone who gave limerick writing a go! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
It had a good outcome. Everyone who had an idea spent breath, who would honestly be against that? Murmers and mumblings aside, I had a great time with the content. What fun Gaul Dernitt (talk) 05:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I didn't get first place? This contest is rigged!-Donald Trump 06:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

It's alive! IT'S ALIIIIVE!!!!! (Kind of.)

https://plus.google.com/b/103925927135237916511/communities/118385254663497931588 First post to the RW Google+ account since 2014. RoninMacbeth (talk) 05:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Necromancy should be outlawed2d4chanfag (talk) 06:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Should it? Dammit, there goes my plan for an undead army...RoninMacbeth (talk) 07:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Nibiru redux

See the main article on this topic: Just asking questions

Is Nibiru an excuse to increase funding for FEMA camps? [2] nobs 14:13, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

What does your gut tell you? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe if they increased funding for FEMA camps, the food would be better? nobs 01:19, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I never knew you'd endorse that kind of pork barrel spendingWikipedia's W.svg, nobs? Alaskan death camps where the migrunts get to eat gubmint cake all day long? It's a fantasy! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's hope they don't leave it out of the debt ceiling increase- if we all live long enough. Wait a minute, isn't NASA in bed with the Russians on the ISS? Now I'm really confused... nobs 02:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Ignore this thread folks.-DιαμοπdDιςc1(talk) 06:43, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Jon Rappoport

Meet Jon Rappoport. A blog post from his blog, http://nomorefakenews.com/, was used on InfoWars. Here's a YouTube video on his YouTube channel of him to see what he's like:

Yes, this is his official channel, it was linked on his website. I double checked.

127.0.0.1 (talk) 16:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

He's got some anti-vaxxer & illuminati stuff in his newsletters. nobs 17:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I am not familiar with this person. I don't even know what level of irony this video is supposed to be operating on. I am so confused. Samstr (talk) 00:13, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
And things are made stranger still by nobs' apparent admission to reading Rappoport's newsletter. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Rappoport has two other videos of him in the bathtub with his rubber duckies. According to nworeporter.com, "Innovative reporter Jon Rappoport fuses immersion journalism with bathtub humor in a sudsy new genre known as bathtub journalism."
here's a tweet:
Explosive details on the #Zika vaccine. Watch out---it will alter your DNA... http://bit.ly/2mzhmIl #RFKjr #Vaxxed
—@jonrappoport
127.0.0.1 (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
This is probably not the time for me to be honest about how much time I actually spend editing RW from my smartphone... while in the tub. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
This article first got my attention, cause in reading it, probably more than 50% of it both pro-Trumpers and anti-Trumpers could agree with it. Then a week later I get this one. I'm not ready to dismiss the guy as a total nut- bag yet anymore than I would John Podesta simply cause he dines with people who drink urine. nobs 01:03, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
The thing that really confuses me is the bizarre outfit. Why is he wearing a winter cap, 3d glasses and a bright yellow raincoat? I kind of like it, but I'm still confused. Samstr (talk) 01:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Found this gem:
If I want to defend the existence of manmade global warming, I attack the PERSON who argues that warming is pseudoscience— and I ignore the CONTENT OF HIS ARGUMENT. This fallacy is called ad hominem; “toward the man.” Or I find a person making an extreme and ridiculous argument against global warming: “The sun actually exudes very little heat, so warming is impossible.” I use that person as my Straw Man. I imply he represents ALL people arguing against global warming, and I knock him down. The Straw Man fallacy. It is extremely helpful to study these fallacies and become able to spot them.
—Rappoport[1]
Yep, Rappoport studies logical fallacies, so he can use them in his own arguments.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 02:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I read his three branches of logic post and it was ... strange. From what I recall of my formal logic class, there are two main branches, inductive and deductive reasoning. (Which produce probable and certain conclusions based on premises respectively.) Samstr (talk) 15:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Reference

Stupid question

I have a somewhat naive question maybe some of our UK users can give pointers on. American press and media often use the the terms, 'British govetnment' and 'British intelligence' which to me seems archaic and outdated dating back to WWII. Most 'British' publications seem to use UK instead. Is this observation on track? If so, how does one go about rehabiliting 300 hundred million Americans and its mainstream press to the correct usage and term?

It seems using 'British' for everything relat3d to the UK, is a term tied up with ethnic identity and similiar to the old misnomer of 'Indian' for Native American (which itself is a term frought with legal ambiguities. Barack Obama, for example, is a native American). Anywho, any pointers or suggestions would be appreciated. nobs 17:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I ain't no redcoat but it's my understanding (someone can still correct me) that using "British" is fine, it refers to the island and only leaves out Northern Ireland. If you're doing a news report it's most correct to use UK but I've heard British use the term British all the time- even on Brexit which was still called Brexit despite including NI and Gibraltar. So long as you're not using "English" too much. Keep in mind that if you're in the UK and talking about UK politics, you're probably just going to say "the government" or "the upcoming elections" just as people in the US are not that specific. Hentropy (talk) 17:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Us set here. As I understand it they don't mind foreigners using "British" since they have yet to find a more elegant way to say "UK-ish." 71.188.73.196 (talk) 18:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
It's pretty much the way 'American' or 'Yankee' became the default descriptions of people from the USA, because United Statesian doesn't flow so well. My understanding is that "Britain" is the large island where England, Wales, and Scotland all are, but that "British Isles" includes Britain, Ireland, Isle of Man, Isle of Woman, and Isle of Dog, as well as all the wee ones up around Scotland. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 19:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
This explains what each term officially refers to. Christopher (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
British is fine, UK is fine. Its no different to referring to the US as America. We all know what is meant. I refer to myself as British not UKer, the same way the op refers to themselves as american and not USian. I assume they are not Canadian or Brazilian. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@christopher, your diagram is incorrect. It is not the united kingdom, it is the united kingdom of great Britain and northern Ireland. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Ain't my diagram. Christopher (talk) 20:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Close enough. Christopher (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So, basically

Hope this helps! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:39, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

See also this image from our United Kingdom page:
British Isles Euler diagram.svg

Bongolian (talk) 21:06, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't forget the Manx, Berwick-upon-Tweeders, Rockallists, Gruanidians, and Channel Islanders. 31.51.113.89 (talk) 21:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Now I know you Brits are just making stuff up. If you're going to come up with a bunch of fantasy race names then be more whimsical in real life at least. Hentropy (talk) 22:58, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Don't forget the Manx, Berwick-upon-Tweeders, Rockallists, Gruanidians, and Channel Islanders.

Fuck 'em. Theresa May (talk) 20:59, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Isle of Man (famous for three-legged logo and tail-less cats), Berwick upon Tweed - supposedly persisted in the Crimean War until some 'municipal jolly settling the matter' in the 1960s, Rockall - occasionally visited, Gruinard Island (better known by another name), and 'subjects of the Duke of Normandy' (including the Minquiers and occasionally invaded Ecrehous Islands). 86.146.100.38 (talk) 22:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Thread for crazy stuff you come across

Title says it all. Instead of spamming the website with multiple individual threads about these comments i propose that this single thread is the place for all crazy comments on the internet along with videos till 5/20/17 where a new one will be made.

I'll start with this

"Is it FACTS that make you an evil negative animal or is it the steroids you take in your uploads? ;) #Winning #YouEvenSquatBro?"

I just i don't even — Unsigned, by: Rbaja / talk / contribs

Start with signing your posts, please. ^^ On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. (You can indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line.) Thank you. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:07, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
What would it do that WIGO clogs doesn't? BicyclewheelToxic mowse.gif 11:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Rbaja is a new user, (s)he probably doesn't know about the clogs or any of that stuff. Christopher (talk) 11:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Who else is joining the March for science?

It's tomorrow! I'm going! Go science!QuantumDudeI am beyond your understanding 16:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I would, but I'm going to a trigonometry contest tomorrow. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:04, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll be marching in Sweden! Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 18:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
March for science in April? nobs 00:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Here...
Rainbow trout transparent.png Whack!
You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Somebody just wants to let you know you did something silly.

...have a trout slap, for making the same stupid joke as my older brother. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Everythings flipped

Donald Trump is cause of the collapse of Western civilization and the anti-Trump crowd is being called upon to defend and preserve traditional values. nobs 05:13, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you believe your premise? Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:25, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm more inclined to the conclusion. Trump, Le Pen, Putin (and Hillary, too} is symptomatic of the problem, not the cause. But what comes next is something to worry about. What's equally or more worrying, is young people, whose world this is seem unconcerned about it.
I'm not a big fan of Stephen Molyneux, but today he spoke along the same lines after the Paris attacks, and I shocked myself at being rivetted to every word. Two of these alarm bells the same day, one before one after Paris, is too more than coinicidence. nobs
The only thing that is being "squandered" is the rather recent achievements of 20th century western liberals. For most of those thousands of years of European history, your average person (along with many noble people) lived short, brutish lives under cruel autocracies. In the US, our liberty was bought with the blood of our own mixed with the blood of these very same autocrats. But we were only marginally better, enslaving an entire other race for economic gain. Trying to look to the past to find liberalism and enlightenment is like looking to a wolf den for philosophy.
Economic strife mixed with civil strife is putting a strain on democracy, due to democracy's natural inability to respond to these kind of crises quickly and decisively. So just as in the 1930s, we are given a choice- so we want to be perfectly safe and economically secure, or do we want to be free? We were told the same thing by illiberals back then. "Give power to [Insert Fascist Here] and you won't have to choose, they will ensure your freedom while taking care of the 'problem'." It is a cruel deception, and one that ignores the very essence of classical liberalism, because if only some privileged classes have freedom, no one really does. If we give them the avenue to revoke freedom, it will always be revoked. Europe realized this cruel deception too late last time.
And we're quickly seeing this same issue play out now, aren't we? Luckily we have a fair number of controls in the US to keep Trump's tyrannical ambitions in check, for now. But him complaining about the judges and an entire branch of government is quite telling. He doesn't understand what a President is for, because he doesn't remember under one that was truly great and was restrained by the actual duties of the office (really, we haven't had a true President since Andrew cocklord Jackson). Le Pen is talking about stripping citizenship away from people who born in the country. So much for liberty and fraternity, eh? Sure, you may be free now, until we decide that certain people born in the country are no longer citizens. Scroll down to the comments of that Molyneux video and you get a heavy dose of where this train of thought naturally leads to- not being protected "bloodlessly and without suffering", but ultimately to people openly clamoring for autocracy and genocide because of scary brown people. This is what you REALLY get with Le Pen, Trump, et al, not some kind of bloodless rebuilding of "civilization" and peace, security, and freedom all at the same time. You may get peace and security, but only at the very high cost of your personal liberties.
What is truly disturbing to me is that people seem blind to the obvious machinations of it all. There's no reason to construct some elaborate theory about what happened here. A radical Muslim shot a police officer in the most famous part of Paris three days for an election. Is that because they loved Macron or Fillon? Maybe they want people to vote for Melenchon! No, obviously they are doing it to try and get people to vote for Le Pen, because that's exactly what they want. They want more war, more conflict, and to force the Muslims who were born and Europe to make a choice between them on Little Miss Petain. Just as "striking back" for "justice" against the terrorists after 9/11 did not change anything or make anyone more safe. As for the younger people, I guess I may fall in that category... I grew up with 9/11 burned into my psyche. I only have vague memories of a time before we started fighting terrorists, using the same tactics against the same enemies with the same results. The executives under Bush and Obama trying to consolidate more power and overstep in order to keep us "safe". Trump and Le Pen and whatever nouveau-fasciste coming down the pipeline will not reverse this trend, they will not keep me safe because the last 3 Presidents I remember were unable to keep me fully safe from harm. Because it turns out the government can't actually really do that. Is it necessary to live in a democracy? I'll let you know when I actually live in one.
That turned into an essay but it's good to get it out sometimes. Hentropy (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Well thought out response, but I have to differ on some points regarding the 1930s. No, the defeat of fascism in Europe, which France was incapable of, did not make people free. Yes, America'a war effort was billed as such, but it failed in its objectives. 350 million people found themselves enslaved after 1945 - that's what a half century Cold War was all about. So I don't see where the parallels hold up other than a rallying call to oppose Trump - albeit on flawed premises.
My arguement is the situation would not be much different with Hillary Clinton right now. Probably worse - because we'd have to endure another 8 years of an ignorant lovefest between media, Hollywood, and the White House while the whole the world and everything we treasure burns - which isn't the prime cause of our problems, but certainly made things more difficult.
Hiding from problems doesn't fix them - Reagan was accused of that. I'm grateful people are being forced to confront reality, it's an imperfect world, and there are real dangerous threats in it. And Donald Trump is not the cause of these problems. Trump, populism, nativism - love it or hate any of them - forces people to get out of their "unaware and compliant" mode and get engaged. Information and education are key. And barking after Trump serves no purpose whatsoever to confront these real problems that Trump has taken off the back burner. nobs 19:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Strangely enough, I would actually agree on pretty much all of these points. I would never suggest that simply winning WWII made everyone free. It was mostly just the prosperity gained in the US that led to a steady expansion of liberalism, and then us using that as a geopolitical strategy to oppose to Soviets. I would also agree that things wouldn't be much different under Hillary... in fact they could be worse. It's become clear to me that the only way people will sour on this form of populism or nationalism is if they jump headfirst into it, or if they're lucky, see another country dive headfirst into and see how it goes. Delaying it longer with another relic like Hillary was only going to make people more hungry.
And I don't even think Trump is that bad, I don't think he's stupid but I think it's clear he has no clear or coherent political ideology. It's rather easy to abandon principles you never really had in the first place. No deep state brainwashing or blackmailing needed. Le Pen and AfD and all these other opportunists in Europe are more troubling, these are not incoherent populists with no principles or ideologies, they are actively looking to erode the foundations of peace and cooperation in Europe that has prevented them from slipping back into their neverending, bloody pissing contests all because the last 10 years or so has kinda been shit for the economy and politics. Hentropy (talk) 06:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Don't forget Putin, tho. Even relations between Merkel & Putin (Iran, too) are not as strained as the US IC & Putin. The EU is a creation of US hegemony. We may be looking at an Right-wing Euro-slavic alliance, less all the racism it's been known for in the past, making Russia an equal partner, rather than a dominant bogeyman that was feared under the Soviet system. nobs 07:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

RationalWiki edits, graphed

I figured out how to use the MediaWiki API, which made grabbing all the edits 100x easier. It also made it possible to graph the actual characters added over time -- which might be a more useful barometer of activity than edits themselves. Graphs available at:

https://awbs.github.io/rationalwiki.html

The data doesn't include page deletions, so the "characters added" graphs might be larger than what's real.

Cømяade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 16:30, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Found a typo. Guess what it is.127.0.0.1 (talk) 16:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Fixed. Cømяade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 17:12, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I thought the proportion of characters by namespace and proportion of edits by namespace were interesting. You can see the downfall of Conservapedia-space and the rise of mainspace pretty damn clear. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 17:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Interesting study

Too special to be duped: Need for uniqueness motivates conspiracy beliefs.

Conclusion:

Across three studies, the desire to see oneself as unique was weakly but reliably associated with the general mindset behind conspirational thinking, conspiracy mentality, as well as the endorsement of specific conspiracy beliefs. These results thus point to a hitherto neglected function of conspiracy theories: to present oneself as distinct from the crowd. Previous explanations of conspiracy thinking had pointed to feelings of control deprivation and less analytical thinking as potential predictors of conspiracy beliefs and thereby created a stereotype of the typical conspiracy believer as a rather anxious and non-rational individual. The current findings add to this emerging image by pointing to a highly functional aspect of endorsing largely unpopular conspiracy beliefs. All humans share not only the need to belong and affiliate with others (Baumeister & Leary, 1995), but also to be different and stick out from them, to be an identifiably unique individual (Snyder & Fromkin, 1980). In navigating both these goals, individuals engage in social identification processes with groups that serve both needs to a comparable degree (Brewer, 1991) and make consumer choices that can either signify belonging to a certain group of consumers or signify differentness. The same logic is also applicable to attitudes; Agreeing with overly consensual opinions is aversive for people with a heightened need for uniqueness (Imhoff & Erb, 2009) and they may thus turn to less common opinions. Conspiracy theories seem to hold the promise of being a set of political attitudes that guarantees that one will be seen as having an independent, if not necessarily accurate, mind.

Damn interesting. The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 19:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Wow. America has become a nation of Californians - 300 million eccentrics. Between the anti-globalists and Russia-Trumpers, beating each other up in the streets, looking for a sense of community. nobs 19:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I resent that comment!...and grudgingly recognize its veracity. RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:17, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
So, the alt-righters (and other extremists) are basically political hipsters then. Having some experience with alt-righters, I always thought this in a way, and I'm glad studies came to this conclusion. I recall JonTron being against identity politics, so there's that.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 00:23, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
This study also further extends the idea of human conflict being integral to human interaction, as can be read in this article.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 00:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@nobs Hey! Not all Californians are like that, only about 98% are.'Legionwhat do you want from me 02:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The other 2% are conformists. nobs 03:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Hah, is funny because when rejection is most common, acceptance is conformism! CorruptUser (talk) 04:45, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The Problem with Anarchy

This discussion was moved to Talk:Anarchy.

Wikipedia featured article

Coincidentally, Wikipedia's featured article today (Shakespeare authorship questionWikipedia's W.svg) is the same one as on RW (Shakespeare authorship). Bongolian (talk) 06:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Obligatory WAKE UP!!! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:15, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Coincidence, hell! It's Shakespeare's birthday! Spud (talk)
Wait, isn't that a coincidence too? 😉 Bongolian (talk) 16:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
It's actually the anniversary of his death, his birthday is in 3 days.'Legionwhat do you want from me 21:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Interesting thought about recycled paper

Have you ever had something made of recycled paper and wondered where it came from? Have you ever considered that new certificate or license may have at one point been a political flyer for Donald Trump, a church bulleton from a right wing church, a Jehovah's Witness flyer, a school assignment from Bob Jones University, or an advertisement for some kind of homeopathic quackery? 172.58.11.195 (talk) 03:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

So, basically the old "did you consider that the water you're drinking was once dinosaur pee" idea but with paper? Incidentally, no, I didn't. RoninMacbeth (talk) 03:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
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