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I'm not cooping this because it is less likely to be resolved there. If promotion is involved, cooping may be necessary, but I'll leave that decision to the mods.
Background, off-wiki:
JzG and David Gerard are prominent Wikipedia sysops. Hipocrite is a psycophant ("professional troll," as he announces), he attacks perceived enemies of administrators, in ways that the admin could not get away with. They often then support and protect him. Hipocrite's long-term behavior has been to push the limits, attempt to engage others in revert wars, to enrage them, then to game the system to seek their ban, he's highly skilled at classic trolling.
In early 2009, I confronted JzG about an abusive blacklisting of lenr-canr.org, a "library" of published scientific papers and other materials on cold fusion, and for other action-while-involved wrt cold fusion, and he was ultimately reprimanded by the Arbitration Committee. (I was not involved with the topic initially, I have a background in physics and became knowledgeable later.). Hipocrite then came after me. He revert warred on Cold fusion, made a request for page protection, quickly made major changes, and thus got his version protected. I negotiated a *full* consensus (including him) on the best version, but the discussion was messy, Hipocrite made it so, and an admin, William M. Connolley, banned me (and Hipocrite, temporarily) from the article and talk page. He hated discussion. Ultimately, this went to ArbComm, and Hipocrite "retired" as he saw it coming. WMC was desysopped, and I was topic banned for a year. Later it became obvious (from leaked emails) that an ArbComm majority disliked non-sysops confronting sysops. I'd done major damage to a powerful faction, the "anti-pseudoscience" faction. WMC was one of the most famous Wikipedia administrators; the faction took revenge whenever and wherever they could find it. They are claiming that I've been pursuing a grudge here. I was snarky, that was the extent of it. Hipocrite is actually still on his mission.
Both JzG and Hipocrite routinely lie, but they are skilled at telling lies that many will believe; what they claim then becomes part of the unexamined evidence that others hold as proving their impressions are true. On Wikipedia, whenever there was consensus process, their positions were rejected. But when mobs gathered, they often won.
David Gerard is not responsible, in any way that I ever noticed, for what happened with JzG, Hipocrite, and me on Wikipedia, beyond being a core member of the administrative cabal (Jimbo Wale's term). I have never seen David Gerard lie. He is clearly a useful contributor to RatWiki.
Events here.
- JzG attempted to remove material from his Talk page, months ago, he revert warred over it. He was informed that policy is against removing talk page comments, unless "obviously vile," and it was far from that. The material was archived by Armondikov.
- JzG just attempted to delete the same material from the archive, replacing it with a new comment.[1]
- I saw it in Recent Changes and reverted it in. Hipocrite reverted it out, Psygremlin reverted it in, JzG again reverted it out. JzG has now removed newer comment from the archive, this time without the "history" reference. JzG and Hipocrite also tag-teamed to remove fresh comment from JzG talk.[2][3][4] Hipocrite, as usual, is attempting to make me the issue. JzG took the issue to the Saloon.[5]
- David Gerard became involved presently with [6]. I asked him about it. He removed my question. He has commonly, without discussion, reverted my edits, and on Cold fusion in effective coordination with Hipocrite. RatWiki claims to be interested in "constructive dialog," but routine ad hominem reversion makes it useless, presenting evidence is useless, making compromises is useless, discussion is useless, and the message is "go away."
- David Gerard had previously deleted comment on his talk page, when I was new here.[7]. I didn't know the policy, didn't think much of it. He previously revert warred with Nx on his Talk page, but that was in 2010.
- David Gerard also wheel-warred with TheoryOfPractice and myself over promoting JzG. Gerard was technically correct, that cooping may be required; however, instead of promoting ToP, whose action I was merely supporting, he promoted me, with no cooping, getting away with it until Blue noticed it two weeks later. [On the original issue, JzG did not abuse sysop tools, he should not have been promoted. He was merely revert warring.]
- Hipocrite escalated through vile trolling, ("Go back to raping your kids.") also confirmed here ("Fuck kids").
- The talk page archiving issue was minor, but a common cause of disruption at RatWiki is lack of enforced policy, the basic social rules that allow rational consideration to take place. If certain users can violate policy with impunity, while others are sanctioned or otherwise bullied, the wiki is just a mob scene, and will not attract or keep mature users, nor will it develop and maintain serious content, it will always be sliding downhill, the saner users will burn out, and the wiki will get what remains.
- I have no critical interest here. I've edited on subjects where I have knowledge, or generally, i.e., fixing typos, or supporting community process with evidence (often not welcome, the "wiki"=quick problem).
- David Gerard is sysadmin here, doing presumably valuable work on the server. JzG is harmless, if restrained, Hipocrite is not. He will push the limits, he will find the weak points in the community, and use them. --Abd (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Continued:
Talk page deletion, of the notices of this complaint: on his talk, and on JzG talk, using the troll template as an excuse. There is more that can be chalked up to ordinary harassment. --Abd (talk) 22:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Recommendations:
- Block Hipocrite, based on obvious cause; he will do no good here, showing interest in topics, beyond the trivial, only to attack and troll, to stir the pot. Beyond that, he goes away. He's dangerous, skilled at finding believable lies, at manipulating community opinion, and he will persist for years.
- Restore JzG's and David Gerard's deleted talk page comments, per policy.
- Request David Gerard back off, and not revert war based on the identity of the editor, deal with content, and discuss and seek consensus or don't edit. Inform him that deletion of non-vile talk page content is against policy, and that encouraging JzG to do this is leading him astray. --Abd (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- tl;dr Hipocrite (talk) 19:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Ace's recommendation
Block Abd. Acei9 22:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
ToP's recommendation
Anyone who drags a three-year-old dispute from another website here should be blocked/promoted/taken out back and shot. Anybody whose name appears above Ace's post should STFU, start behaving like an adult, follow the rules, or get the eff off our website. Theory of Practice Still tryin' to figure it all out. 22:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I supposed we should be flattered that enough prominent Wikipedians spend time here for us to double as their HCM spillover.
Radioactive Misanthrope 22:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hipocrite is doing what he's always done, though "go rape your kids" is extreme even for him.
- JzG is just an ass, he's famous for it, by himself, he's largely harmless, though not very bright. You can see him reacting to RatWiki before he had any interaction with me, in that original flap over his page deletions. Imagine him as a Wikipedia admin, telling anyone he didn't like to fuck off as he blocked them. ArbComm rapped his knuckles, he'd sulk for a while, then he'd come back and do what he'd done before, knowing that it would not usually be noticed. If someone did notice, a crowd, people like Hipocrite, would gather yelling at them. "Whiners!" "Complainers." "POV-pushers!" "Ban him!"
- David Gerard owns this place, right? I wish he'd change policies if they are wrong. it would save a lot of time. --Abd (talk) 23:09, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- TOP, in all this I've been taking a stand for a simple rule, we don't delete Talk page discussion unless it is outrageously vile. It really is that simple. But to understand the context, why three seemingly unrelated editors would be pushing talk page deletion -- against community consensus here, not just me -- and why two of them have heavily focused on cold fusion here, with the third just diving in, I needed to bring up the past. I do not believe that anyone should be sanctioned on one wiki for what they have done on another. I've seen that violated, and it always did harm. Clean start. (ec with below) --Abd (talk) 23:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ Abd, just fuck off for awhile man. Acei9 23:12, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Great idea, Ace. Are you buying? --Abd (talk) 23:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- If you fuck off for awhile and stop your page long whining I'll send you some beers. Acei9 23:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the thought, Ace, but I don't drink that stuff. Whining? Naw, you are whining. Ace. Why won't that Abd go away? Ace, why do you bother looking at my stuff? There isn't anything there for you, no cheese down that hole, you don't have the background. You aren't a mod any more, you have no obligation at all. The mods will handle this, or not. So what? If they don't handle it, I'll coop it or just go away. Maybe they will promote me. Oh, foolish heart. --Abd (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Say what? I have virtually no edits here outside mainspace (proof. I'm here for the quackbusting. The idea of Abd on a rational wiki is amusing, but the actual practice is unlikely to be anything other than monumentally tedious - which said, I don't give a flying fuck on a rolling doughnut as long as he leaves me alone, others have already resisted his fuckwittery at cold fusion and I have no intention of refighting that battle since if there was a winning side at Wikipedia I was obviously on it. And I don't go there much these days either. And there's already talk of banning Abd over at least one and maybe more other disputes on the main project page. I am not always the mos clear-sighted when it comes to my own motivations but I really do think that this time it's not me that's the problem. JzG (talk) 01:07, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- JzG is generally correct. He is not the problem here, not really. He's more of a victim. Partly of his own imagination, partly of a false friend. JzG, there is no risk to you here. I'm asking for nothing other than a warning, and maybe the
gods mods will decide that you -- and the rest of us -- can remove whatever we please from our talk pages. I was just enforcing a policy. As to "talk of banning me" on the "main project page," I think you may be imagining things, wishful thinking. I just checked meta.wikimedia.org, all quiet, boring as hell. The usual. I'm not banned anywhere except Wikipedia. By the way, JzG, I think I forgot to thank you for that, you started the community ban discussion last year, after I wasn't editing any more, didn't you? Better late than never. Thanks for the promotion. I now get paid for Wikipedia work. It's definitely more fun. Just think, I could have been slaving away in those salt mines, "for the good of the wiki."
- So WTF am I doing here? Well, most days, I'm not here! --Abd (talk) 02:17, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Blue's bit
I don't have very much familiarity with the users involved in this dispute so I carry little personal bias. Here are my suggestions:
- Remand complaints about behavior on Wikipedia to the relevant Wikipedian arbitrators, if any. We cannot take off-wiki behavior into account when evaluating the conduct of RW users except in extreme circumstances, of which this is certainly not one.
- Abd, please concisely describe exactly which of the Community Standards have been violated if you want any punitive measures taken up against anyone.
- Precedent since the Loya Jirga decision has given more leeway to users, not the community, in determining whether comments on their talk pages are "vile", especially if the user making the comments is unpopular. The burden is thus on you, Abd, to prove that your comments were removed abusively.
- I do not see a very strong or clearly laid-out case for abuse against David Gerard.
Pax vobis. Uke Blue 23:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- As always there is a grain of truth in the reams of dross that Abd spews. I know there is no chance that you are going to change the way that you behave on a wiki but at least acknowledge that you are your own worst enemy Abd. Many users have given you salient advice which you have ignored; including the above. You are a liability to the cause you think you are fighting for. Tielec01 (talk) 01:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Tielec What cause? My process is to lay out what I see, honestly and openly. I'm not necessarily sure what it's for. Writing something like this takes an enormous amount of time. It's essentially insane. The basic "wiki" problem is that "quick" is expected, and anything else is suspect. I have history with rational skepticism and I think I imagined that this site was about that. It's not. But here I am. --Abd (talk) 01:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict with above) Thank you, Blue. Assuming that you may have missed something, this may be repetitive with what is above.
- There is no complaint here about Wikipedia behavior, and no sanction suggested here for Wikipedia behavior. However, two editors are still clearly carrying grudges about the old events, one seriously. You won't understand what Hipocrite is doing without at least some of the history.
- The Community Standard violated was noted: removal of talk page comments that are not "obviously vile." That clearly does not allow removal merely because the person dislikes the one commenting, or thinks the comments silly or useless. If the Standard is incorrect or misleading, it should be changed, because published rules that are not enforced lead to false expectations and wasted time. Like this process, for example?
- Individual discretion on removal is allowed, but that does not apply to anything not reasonably obvious. If so, I need to know. I attempted to remove Ace McWicked's obscene trolling from my talk page and face revert warring on my own Talk page,[8] so I just archived it. That was generally vile, though not personally offensive to me -- or my children. I just didn't want it cluttering up the place where I receive guests. JzG has something going on about those posts.
- Adequate evidence needed to support my recommendations is already above.
- This is not about removal of "my comments," it is about removal of comments other than "obviously vile."
- In the original removal, that triggered the old revert warring and threat of sanctions, and repeated now, comments by yourself (Blue), by PintOfStout, Matty the Damned, Scream!!, and JzG himself, and in the archive he replaced it all with a critique, to have the last word in his Talk page archive. None of this was vile, and many users chimed in over the removal. Not allowed.
- Hipocrite first encouraged JzG to go ahead with the removal, this time, and supported it with tag team reversion.
- As this escalated, Hipocrite told me to Go back to raping your kids., and fuck kids, linked above. (He was bringing up the Tisane Affair, which most sane people here dropped.)
- David Gerard clearly enjoys what is being done by JzG and Hipocrite,[9] and has also removed talk page comments, but only from me (recently). For example, David removed the notifications of this process from his own talk page and from JzG talk. Because JzG just found the Loya Jirga vote that supported the vote, he just asked on his talk page about interpretations of that, and I reviewed it and the events and found that David Gerard had, in 2010, taken a position supporting freer talk page deletion than the community position, reported in my response (at the bottom of the page). David then communicated this to JzG, saying the deletions were fine. The discussion. So this was all prepared back in August, for JzG to believe that his deletions would be okay and that he was simply being harassed. So David set this up. JzG, from Wikipedia, would believe that David Gerard would definitely be the go-to person.
- So to organize the information differently as cause and consequence:
- JzG: revert warring, talk page discussion removal, lack of clue, no sanction but warning.
- Hipocrite: revert warring, talk page discussion removal, admitted and visible trolling, encouraging violation of policy, and egregious and vile offensiveness ban.
- David Gerard: revert warring, talk page discussion removal, encouraging violation of policy, no sanction but warning.
- The most significant matter for me personally was being told to go rape my kids. I'm not going to be associated in any way with a wiki that tolerates this, whether it violates a "Community Standard" or not, and I'd take the same position if it was someone else it was said to. I almost left immediately, then decided to pursue due process.
- Hipocrite is here purely to pursue an old grudge, and it's obvious from his editing. I could show this if needed, but his egregious "fuck kids" makes it unnecessary. --Abd (talk) 19:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Conflict in the Standards?
I had not noticed a section in the Community Standards that says, under User pages
- A user's talk page, like any other talk page on the site, is public and does not belong to the user. However, users are permitted to delete posts from their own talk pages at their discretion, being responsible for any abuse of this permission. Users who believe their comments have been removed unjustifiably can take their case to the Chicken Coop or All Things in Moderation, rather than edit-warring over the removal.
Below, in the section on Talk pages:
- Similarly, users should not delete or change another user's comments on a talk or discussion page, with the following exceptions:
- Obviously vile comments made for the purposes of trolling, ...
The permission at the top might be seen as wider. However, reading this more carefully, it does not allow such deletion (of other than "vile comments"), but the remedy should not be to revert war with the user or block, all of which happened with JzG. One revert with an explanation about policy would have been adequate; if the user persists in abusive removal, the "permissive standard" holds them "responsible" for any abuse, handled through the Coop or ATIM.
There may be some misunderstanding in the community over the policy from misinterpretation of the first section without the second, or, alternatively, the second without the first. --Abd (talk) 04:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Or you might be wrong. In fact, it seems you are. And have been told so several times. Which, if past experience is any guide, will have precisely fuck-all effect on your continuing to agitate about it. JzG (talk) 16:24, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- David Gerard (talk) 17:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Motion to close
On the grounds that it's just Abd schimpfing about something or other, and we don't really care. SophieWilder 23:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Aye
- SophieWilder 23:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Basically, delete everything he writes that's longer than 10 lines.
 00:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I still support banning him--Mikal Harass Follow 00:27, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Abd = zero value-added. Theory of Practice Still tryin' to figure it all out. 00:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- With apologies to all the fragile little snowflakes harmed by this, this is really tl;dr.
postate 01:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't understand what is going on or why we're talking about it.
Radioactive Misanthrope 02:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- OMG. What a massive waste of time, effort and space over things that are not in the least bit important or relevant to anything. --DamoHi 02:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- My favorite part of this: Blue says "concisely". 4000 characters later, Abd has finished replying--"Shut up, Brx." 03:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I wish Abd would figure out each paragraph hurts his cause. --Revolverman (talk) 03:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I went through, read, and thought about the whole thing. And I want those wasted minutes back.--
talk 04:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Uke Blue 04:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- What Brx said. JzG (talk) 12:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
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- You're channelling Abd. Here, have this tinfoil hat. JzG (talk) 14:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Nay
A goat stamping on a long-eared jerboa. Forever.
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