RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the blogosphere?
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:::::::::No, I did not say that human nature has changed over the past 30-odd years. '''Activism and the processes thereof''' has changed over the past 30-odd years. Activism '''is not''' human nature, and no amount of you trying to conflate the two will make it so. --[[User:Castaigne|Castaigne]] ([[User talk:Castaigne|talk]]) 15:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | :::::::::No, I did not say that human nature has changed over the past 30-odd years. '''Activism and the processes thereof''' has changed over the past 30-odd years. Activism '''is not''' human nature, and no amount of you trying to conflate the two will make it so. --[[User:Castaigne|Castaigne]] ([[User talk:Castaigne|talk]]) 15:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::That isn't what you wrote; so it goes. I'm not sure how you'd go about quantifying this -- counting numbers of pressure groups or trying to make an algorithm that measures hostility in texts, maybe -- but it seems to me that the tide of moralistic aggression is unacceptably high and rising. We're in the middle of a great civil rights catastrophe -- people being segregated, shunned, and driven out into the cold, constantly facing signs that they're unwelcome -- one that's even elaborated its own form of "scientific racism", and people who haven't met me may be hard pressed to figure out what I'm talking about. How is present day activism less cruel or invasive than the forms it took some decades ago? I'm not seeing that. - [[User:Smerdis of Tlön|Smerdis of Tlön]], <small><sup>[[User talk:Smerdis of Tlön|A ⇒ ¬A]].</sup></small> 18:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ::::::::::That isn't what you wrote; so it goes. I'm not sure how you'd go about quantifying this -- counting numbers of pressure groups or trying to make an algorithm that measures hostility in texts, maybe -- but it seems to me that the tide of moralistic aggression is unacceptably high and rising. We're in the middle of a great civil rights catastrophe -- people being segregated, shunned, and driven out into the cold, constantly facing signs that they're unwelcome -- one that's even elaborated its own form of "scientific racism", and people who haven't met me may be hard pressed to figure out what I'm talking about. How is present day activism less cruel or invasive than the forms it took some decades ago? I'm not seeing that. - [[User:Smerdis of Tlön|Smerdis of Tlön]], <small><sup>[[User talk:Smerdis of Tlön|A ⇒ ¬A]].</sup></small> 18:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
| + | ::::::::::::I'm not sure I follow you here. If we date the modern activist movement as something that started with abolitionism, was energized by the suffragettes and arguably enjoyed its best days in the last half of the 20th century with a variety of movements ranging from anti-colonialism (including apartheid), anti-racism movements in the Americas (civil rights, Black Power, Red Power), anti-war and anti-nuke activism, the women's liberation movement, the Stonewall moment and its legacy, and a host of others -- you characterise these as "cruel or invasive"? Peace. [[User:AgingHippie|AgingHippie]] [[User_talk:AgingHippie|(talk)]] 18:46, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
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Complimentary Matters
I've read over the compliment agreement BuzzFeed article... and I think I might be missing something here. If someone tells a guy "Dude, you're so handsome/suave/swole/etc." and he responds with "Yeah, I totally am" or "I know, right?", doesn't that also make him appear completely full of himself? Granted, it is to a lesser extent with men than with women because of the whole all-attractive-women-are-self-absorbed stereotype, which is bad, but I'm not sure that automatically leads to "men believe only THEY can hand out the title of 'pretty'".
There's also the matter of how it's worded. (I mean, really. Who responds to a compliment with just 'yes'? "Heard you managed to finish the marathon in record time! Good job out there!" "Yes."). Agreeing with a compliment is one thing, but there's kind of a difference between, say, "I try to be!", "Thanks, I know!" and "Yep." Can someone clarify if I'm missing something? Noir LeSable (talk) 04:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, it's a rather silly social expectation for people to pretend to think less of themselves than they actually do. Also, the idea that someone hitting on you is a "compliment" & something you should thank them for is ridiculous. To me, a guy saying "wow baby, u hot, i bet u look naked" looks more completely full of himself than the girl responding "yeah that's right". ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:44, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'd say it's more of a matter of humbleness being considered a virtue. I did totally miss that all these examples were pretty much guys just hitting on women though, so you do have an excellent point (Whiiiiich is what I missed. Don't mind me; I don't have much of a romantic life to speak of, so cues like this fly over my head sometimes). Thanks. Noir LeSable (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Some of the girls' answers might look oddly short or overconfident, but not to the point where it'd explain/justify all the guys going "Oh, what I said earlier was totally a lie. I don't think you're awesome/sexy/hot at all." Really, some people... >.> 141.134.75.236 (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think at least some of the responses to accepting the compliments were teasing honestly.TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you say "aw, thanks" or "thanks, you too" when someone compliments you, then that's fine. Pretty much anything other than that is self-absorbed, I don't care who's saying it. This whole thing seems overblown and frankly pretty silly. People just want something to be outraged over so that they can feel progressive without having to actually do anything. The scale and number of the implications that the author of the Buzzfeed article seems to think that this has is staggering. Though it should be said that this kind of thing is kind of common - people get outraged over some petty, inconsequential bs and say that it represents a much larger problem so that they don't have to feel bad about not normally giving a shit about said much larger problem.(Agrajag (talk) 23:59, 17 January 2015 (UTC))
- I think at least some of the responses to accepting the compliments were teasing honestly.TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Some of the girls' answers might look oddly short or overconfident, but not to the point where it'd explain/justify all the guys going "Oh, what I said earlier was totally a lie. I don't think you're awesome/sexy/hot at all." Really, some people... >.> 141.134.75.236 (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'd say it's more of a matter of humbleness being considered a virtue. I did totally miss that all these examples were pretty much guys just hitting on women though, so you do have an excellent point (Whiiiiich is what I missed. Don't mind me; I don't have much of a romantic life to speak of, so cues like this fly over my head sometimes). Thanks. Noir LeSable (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Re: A week in the life...
So, I understand that Twitter is a cesspool, but how can some asshat tweet "RETWEET ME OR ELSE I WILL BOMB YOUR HOUSE AT NIGHT" and not get his account kickbanned for abuse? Cosmikdebris (talk) 23:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- They did. @NeoDanger777, as well as a number of the other death/rape threat tweet accounts, are pinging up "This account has been suspended" pages when I try to access them. Not entirely sure whether or not it was due in part to the callout in the post she made.
- Bleh. One of the things I dislike about the internet is how cheap and easy it makes anonymous threats. I mean, FFS, I consider myself a pretty mild person, and I've gotten a death threat in the past for saying that I prefer using a typewriter for writing (Guy thought I was a hipster because of this, and apparently really hated hipsters). Noir LeSable (talk)
- I've long decided hipsters, by and large, aren't nearly as bad people as people who hate hipsters. Ikanreed (talk) 19:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. The account wasn't booted when I wrote the above comment, so I assume it was suspended after being outed on the femfreq blog. Cosmikdebris (talk) 19:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's not like said asshat won't create a new account as soon as he's banned, though. If it wasn't a sockpuppet account to begin with. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
- When I checked last evening, @NeoDanger777 had been quite active for at least a few months, so it appears he/she/it was not a sock. Cosmikdebris (talk) 19:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's almost more disturbing when you realize the awful, terrible people, who fail at basic decency are mostly just regular people going about their lives. It feels better to imagine them the 2% of people whose personality makes them tend to choose trolling as a way of engaging online, going everywhere, doing everything. Ikanreed (talk) 19:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
- When I checked last evening, @NeoDanger777 had been quite active for at least a few months, so it appears he/she/it was not a sock. Cosmikdebris (talk) 19:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Wesley Morganston
So someone put in the blogs section something that belongs in the clogs. Essentially a neoreactionary commentary making fun of "the Cathedral" - a conspiratorial catch-all term for everything modern, liberal, or even conservative that disagrees with their worldview - for using demonstrations and actual humanity to demand justice. It's basically one big fat "no u" while insisting that "modern" ways of life are vacuous. And then there's a section insisting that there's no such thing as secularism, by pointing out times when government and religion were intermingled like eggs in an omelet.
And the only reason I haven't snipped it is because you dumbasses keep upvoting it and I want to see how much critical examination of things you actually do. — Unsigned, by: 73.41.199.153 / talk / contribs
- I notice it started at +10 and is now at +4. Well done, you put it in and got it Internet points, that'll definitely bring about the revolution - David Gerard (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Um, the link was added by another BoN.
- As for "you dumbasses", the people who visit and vote on these pages are not necessarily the same as those who edit the wiki. There seems to be a lot of people who vote on links without reading them.--ZooGuard (talk) 11:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Neoreactionary/LessWrong Twitter has been circulating the link going "OH WOW NYDWRACU'S IN RW" like we're the big time - David Gerard (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Honestly, I just ignored it because "the problem with religion" is one of those complicated topics that I don't expect an article by that name to properly address in the first place. Ikanreed (talk) 15:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, RW knows who they are and said critical things...and they nothing better to do. There's only so many times you can heat up a cheese dip, watch weird youtube videos, or write senseless 30 page screeds. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 17:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't upvote it because I recognized the source, but I figure Nydwracu's words speak for themselves. I saw nothing particularly offensive there either, then again I'm not sensitive to that sort of thing either. The NR idea of the Cathedral is a bit off, but also interesting. People of all political persuasions tend to place various ideas on pedestals and react to challenges to these ideas badly. At least Nydracu's writing is a bit easier to take than Moldbug's. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Today I was reminded of Moldbug's ridiculous piece on Bitcoin. (My response.) That's him being relatively terse and direct, by the way - David Gerard (talk) 21:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Neoreactionary/LessWrong Twitter has been circulating the link going "OH WOW NYDWRACU'S IN RW" like we're the big time - David Gerard (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok. I am the person who added Nort's post to this because it's actually very good, thoughtful, and contrary to what you people might assume, not NRx. But now I'm interested. Do you people actually have a proper argument for why you don't like it, or what? 74.14.21.198 (talk) 22:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- What? The word 'Cathedral' appears once on the entire first page. Also it's almost certainly not kantbot, but whoever it is doesn't understand that different words have different meanings to different audiences so I hope he stops doing that. --Oldenglishword (talk) 07:11, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed, Wes. But these people are well aware of exosemantics. 74.14.21.198 (talk) 07:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- "exosemantics" being a word he's most of the top 10 Google hits for. 'Cos we really needed a neologism for "connotations". I blame LessWrong's encouragement of gratuitous neologism, as always - David Gerard (talk) 11:43, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed, Wes. But these people are well aware of exosemantics. 74.14.21.198 (talk) 07:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- Apparently Wesley denies he's NRx but none of his friends believe it. (indulgent twitter thread). Someone also said Mr. 74 is @kantbot2000, though I can't find that tweet now - David Gerard (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- For more proof, check out this twitter conversation. Does he ever betray a NRx viewpoint (pro-tech, singularitarian) 74.14.21.198 (talk) 02:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- *psst* that conversation makes no point to anyone not already steeped in the NRx memetic swamp - David Gerard (talk) 11:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- More proof on his writings for Theden. 74.14.21.198 (talk) 03:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- For more proof, check out this twitter conversation. Does he ever betray a NRx viewpoint (pro-tech, singularitarian) 74.14.21.198 (talk) 02:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
From "Blogs run by RationalWikians" down
Should this stuff be merged with RationalWiki:Blogroll, or does it serve some special purpose here? FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ﹐ Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 23:56, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- *cough* FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ﹐ Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 18:21, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
What's the skeptic stance on 'pedo'-detectors?
The cracked article talks about the studies purportedly showing that up to 50% of men are pedophiles, using some ridiculous looking penis movement recorder... what is the skeptic stance on that sort of stuff? It seems completely nuts (pun intended) - surely some pedos will not get a boner, and non-pedos may move around uncomfortably, mechanically causing false positives. Dmytry (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have a vague memory of someone mentioning "tumescence detectors", but I'm not sure if it was here or somewhere else. Check out User:Nebuchadnezzar, he's the psychology and neuroscience guy here, though he's not very active lately.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was misremembering the term - the penile plethysmograph is mentioned in Pseudopsychology and has an entry on the Skeptic's Dictionary, but the Pedophilia article reports results from plethysmography studies without caveats. That article deserves attention, BTW, as its current incarnation is mostly the creation of User:Landmartian, who is a bit odd.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:40, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
- "It has even been given to children as young as 10 who had abused other children. The latter was done in Phoenix, Arizona..." WTF?! Seriously, WTF?! Dmytry (talk) 21:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know, "has predictive value" is a pretty big deal for me as far as the pseudoscience divide goes: Discriminative and Predictive Validity of the Penile Plethysmograph in Adolescent Sex Offenders. The reasoning for calling it pseudoscience on both rationalwiki and skepdic was its deep ties to both lie detection and aversion therapy. The big risk is that people treat it like a smoking gun, when it's just a moderate correlation. Ikanreed (talk) 20:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, a lot of things correlate with general re-offending. Age, income, IQ, race... nobody's calling a skin albedo measurement device a detector of criminality yet it would actually work pretty well in the US. Dmytry (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Except that's exactly what I'm saying. That it has meaning, but using it as a tool for calling someone a criminal is dumb. The risk isn't that it's pseudoscience, it's that it's misapplied science. Ikanreed (talk) 23:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Ahh. No, my WTF was about the fact that using this test on a 10yo itself constitutes sexual abuse of a minor. As for pseudoscience, Cracked's claim should qualify, no? You can't use a weak correlate to establish a % of paedophiles among men. It trivializes paedophilia. Dmytry (talk) 04:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- Except that's exactly what I'm saying. That it has meaning, but using it as a tool for calling someone a criminal is dumb. The risk isn't that it's pseudoscience, it's that it's misapplied science. Ikanreed (talk) 23:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, a lot of things correlate with general re-offending. Age, income, IQ, race... nobody's calling a skin albedo measurement device a detector of criminality yet it would actually work pretty well in the US. Dmytry (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know, "has predictive value" is a pretty big deal for me as far as the pseudoscience divide goes: Discriminative and Predictive Validity of the Penile Plethysmograph in Adolescent Sex Offenders. The reasoning for calling it pseudoscience on both rationalwiki and skepdic was its deep ties to both lie detection and aversion therapy. The big risk is that people treat it like a smoking gun, when it's just a moderate correlation. Ikanreed (talk) 20:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- "It has even been given to children as young as 10 who had abused other children. The latter was done in Phoenix, Arizona..." WTF?! Seriously, WTF?! Dmytry (talk) 21:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Is it me or Cracked's been sort of good lately?
The trans man article warmed me up to the site again. It was even gasp funny!
Only complaint about the article was the "Straight men, on the other hand, also won't touch you because you're too assertive, with probably a fair amount of homophobia thrown in for good measure" bit. That's probably because straight dudes aren't into dudes. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Now I'm not tense anymore, I'm just miserable. Hooray! 19:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- That's from the interviews series, which is just amazingly good in general - David Gerard (talk) 20:15, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Some trans men can still look kinda female according to societal standards, so it's not physically impossible for a guy who identifies as straight to have a relationship with a trans man. Not that it'd likely be a healthy relationship if it's founded on the straight guy not knowing/denying the other's gender identity. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 20:30, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Since having a little girl what I'm noticing is that everyone's gender steamrolled from their very birth, starting with pink vs any non-link colours (literally turning women into people of colour lol). The toys are gendered. Imagine if the toys were raced instead, as in, rappers and gangsters in the black kid isle, other toys in white and asian kid isle. Imagine that a black kid who's playing with technical legos or merely not being into rappers gets told he's not a real black kid at every point by the society and the well meaning people of all races, perhaps he's a white guy trapped in a black guy's body? The problems that trans people experience undoubtedly stem from this utterly extreme sexism. Dmytry (talk) 08:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- This'll probably be solved if gendered toys stop selling. But stuff like Max Steel, Transformers, TMNT, Barbie, Polly Pocket, and My Little Pony keeps making mad bank (admittedly, Max Steel is awesome). |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Kyubey stares into your soul. /人◕‿‿◕人\\ 01:35, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's even worse with legos and everything else now than with barbies and transformers. You need to go look in a toy store. Not only are almost all toys sold in gender specific manner (more moving parts / more colours / more complex assembly in the boys section), they propagandise gender roles (all scientist and engineer characters in lego are male for example, girl sets have girls take care of the house and water flowers, etc etc). The toys relating to occupations are sorted into boy/girl toys, one could go over the average salaries of the occupations represented by said toys for a kick. Or count the moving parts as a proxy for educational value, or assembly steps. The toys that you think are gender neutral are in boy section. And while as a parent you could of course ignore all that, the kindergarten, school, friends, etc will not. Dmytry (talk) 02:44, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's tragic that Lego has actually taken steps backwards over the last few decades in that regard. There was a fuss recently that got a scientific women set released, and I understand that it's now going to become a regular part of the range rather than a limited edition set, but you look at Lego adverts from yesteryear and it's abundantly clear that some effort was taken to avoid any gender stereotyping. Somewhere along the line it was lost.Queexchthonic murmurings 10:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's even worse with legos and everything else now than with barbies and transformers. You need to go look in a toy store. Not only are almost all toys sold in gender specific manner (more moving parts / more colours / more complex assembly in the boys section), they propagandise gender roles (all scientist and engineer characters in lego are male for example, girl sets have girls take care of the house and water flowers, etc etc). The toys relating to occupations are sorted into boy/girl toys, one could go over the average salaries of the occupations represented by said toys for a kick. Or count the moving parts as a proxy for educational value, or assembly steps. The toys that you think are gender neutral are in boy section. And while as a parent you could of course ignore all that, the kindergarten, school, friends, etc will not. Dmytry (talk) 02:44, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- This'll probably be solved if gendered toys stop selling. But stuff like Max Steel, Transformers, TMNT, Barbie, Polly Pocket, and My Little Pony keeps making mad bank (admittedly, Max Steel is awesome). |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- Since having a little girl what I'm noticing is that everyone's gender steamrolled from their very birth, starting with pink vs any non-link colours (literally turning women into people of colour lol). The toys are gendered. Imagine if the toys were raced instead, as in, rappers and gangsters in the black kid isle, other toys in white and asian kid isle. Imagine that a black kid who's playing with technical legos or merely not being into rappers gets told he's not a real black kid at every point by the society and the well meaning people of all races, perhaps he's a white guy trapped in a black guy's body? The problems that trans people experience undoubtedly stem from this utterly extreme sexism. Dmytry (talk) 08:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Lesbians and doctor
In honesty, the child is probably better off not going to that doctor, as it appears they're an alt med pusher. "She took a holistic approach to treating children. She used natural oils and probiotics". Compro01 (talk) 19:59, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- While I don't know why the natural oils thing was even a consideration, I don't see how suggesting a holistic approach to treating an infection is evidence of "alt medicine pushing." The USA Today article is far too vague about the doctor's approach for anyone reading it to glean that they prefer alternative medicine to standard medicine. I think it's a bit rash to rush to conclusions about this physician's approach to medicine based on this single article from USA Today, whose journalistic integrity isn't exactly "blemish-free." Mondedge (talk) 20:20, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
That tumblr thingy with -20 points
Since it was added by that troll, and it's about as coherent as that troll, shouldn't it be removed? Narky Sawtooth
(BoN is paranoid!) 13:25, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Nah, let's rub it in his face that his trolling has failed spectacularly. Bicyclewheel
14:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Stuff tends not to get removed from WIGO unless it's really old or should be moved to a different WIGO - downvoting into oblivion is just fine - David Gerard (talk) 15:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
That stupid hentai WIGO
Seriously? I could, if not in the interest of this site not being a pornostash, post 150,000 "sex-positive" hentai comics and images from just the sites listed in that article (I mean holy shit, Fakku has tons of good stuff, and that's one that was specifically pointed out in the thing). If I go to Tube8 and say "ugh, all the gay porn out there is just twinks being rammed up the ass, that's all there is" then yes, I would describe a thing that exists, but holy shit did I miss a lot of things and then go "UGH, IT'S ALL THERE IS" because that's all I was looking for. [Semi-anonymous rant mode OFF.] 75.121.238.149 (talk) 10:02, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
- Sturgeon's Law must surely apply to porn as much as anything else. I guess porn has greater scope for the worst of it to be damaging (depending on how it was made) or displaying the worst attributes of its target market, but I'll take hentai over Nuts any day. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:23, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
That weak Guardian article on Militant atheism
The gist seems to be that militant atheists are largely liberal, and they think that all cultures will naturally evolve to their viewpoint. It seems like an insipid straw-man argument to me, especially considering that liberal atheists can retort that they don't expect all societies will adopt liberalism as a matter of course. — Unsigned, by: Hotwateramericano / talk / contribs
- Not going to argue with that characterization. But I do think that at least for certain liberals, there is the expectation that liberalism will inevitably triumph. Its opponents stand in the way of Progress, and Progress is inevitable. (And so, standing in the way of Progress makes you a Villain.) Been this way since the days of the ancient Whigs. At any rate, I thought the editorial was not crazy enough for the clogs and fairly obviously missional. The author, John Gray[wp], probably deserves an article. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 04:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Davis Aurini and Jordan Owen have broken up
Is the skinny guy wearing the fedora ironically, have these losers "reclaimed" it from ridicule, a la lesbnians reclaiming the word "dyke," or does he actually think it makes him look cool? Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 03:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe he's reclaiming the fedora's ironic coolness. FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 03:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I thought the hat was actually the most amicable element in that picture. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 07:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
People who are sick of activists' shit.
Seriously. Graduate students who literally spend 60 hours a week reading and writing about cutting-edge scholarship about things like gender and race attack someone who turned up for the cause and is willing to give time and effort for a common goal, but only has a GED and no idea what the fuck "gender performativity" or "social construction of race" mean or haven't learned that there are more than two possible pronouns for someone or that you shouldn't say "man up", thereby alienating a valuable ally. It happens, and it sucks. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 17:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm well aware. Being caustic helps exactly zero* sincere causes. But I still downvoted it because it seemed like exactly the sort of narrow-minded policing of language it denounced. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Telling people that engaging in narrow-minded policing of language is itself narrow-minded policing of language. Gotcha. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- It can be if all you do is say "Never call people out". If it's a gross simplification, it's a gross simplification, regardless of intent, no? ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:43, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Except that's not what he said. "There are ways of calling people out that are compassionate and creative, and that recognize the whole individual instead of viewing them simply as representations of the systems from which they benefit. Paying attention to these other contexts will mean refusing to unleash all of our very real trauma onto the psyches of those we imagine represent the systems that oppress us. Given the nature of online social networks, call-outs are not going away any time soon. But reminding ourselves of what a call-out is meant to accomplish will go a long way toward creating the kinds of substantial, material changes in people’s behaviour – and in community dynamics – that we envision and need." Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- That's fair. I was overreaching. And I'm a firm believer in the extraordinary value of context. On the other hand, look at Smerdis' kinda hateful reply below to see how some people treat this kind of advice. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 18:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) Indeed. It's a bit of a shame, because I think this kind of attitude can not only alienate folks, but can also actually lessen the effectiveness of the activism in general. People like their in-groups and are more likely to listen to others within their in-group(s). Turning away someone looking to help just because they come from another background serves only to lock yourself out of that person's group and prevent your message from gaining traction. - Grant (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Except that's not what he said. "There are ways of calling people out that are compassionate and creative, and that recognize the whole individual instead of viewing them simply as representations of the systems from which they benefit. Paying attention to these other contexts will mean refusing to unleash all of our very real trauma onto the psyches of those we imagine represent the systems that oppress us. Given the nature of online social networks, call-outs are not going away any time soon. But reminding ourselves of what a call-out is meant to accomplish will go a long way toward creating the kinds of substantial, material changes in people’s behaviour – and in community dynamics – that we envision and need." Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- It can be if all you do is say "Never call people out". If it's a gross simplification, it's a gross simplification, regardless of intent, no? ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:43, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Telling people that engaging in narrow-minded policing of language is itself narrow-minded policing of language. Gotcha. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- To some extent I am inclined to agree with the author, though he does come off as a bit of tone troll in the article. The popular perception of those students who you mention (and who you may be aware are referred to, often derisively, as Social Justice Warriors) is that they lack any concept of proportionality. This is evident (at least to the denizens on the internet) by the fact that their responses to relatively minor actual (or perceived) social injustices tend to be regarded, even by other leftists (let alone centrists or conservatives), as being way out of proportion to the actual offense committed. Alsto003 (talk) 19:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC) Alex
- Is anyone who criticizes tone a tone troll? (There's a discussion on that in the saloon, by the way.) (Agrajag (talk) 23:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC))
- There's an extent to which that's true. In a totally sincere, rational world, an argument's merits do not vary at all based on the verbal framework that surrounds it. Demanding everyone's sincere concerns fall as secondary to expressing their concerns a certain way is pretty much all a tone troll does. Regardless, we don't live in a totally sincere, rational world, which entails being friendly with assholes who don't deserve it as the only way to alleviate a bit of their assholedom. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 15:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- Is anyone who criticizes tone a tone troll? (There's a discussion on that in the saloon, by the way.) (Agrajag (talk) 23:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC))
- Activists will always need somebody to dehumanize, because that's what activism is. Activists are people who make enemies lists. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 17:26, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Your essay sucks, dude. It's twisting the definition of something, then selectively cherrypicking people to fit that definition, then denouncing similar people as problematic, on the basis of that stretched definition. That's not good reasoning, and it's exactly the sort of enemy forming you claim to denounce. As a clue, you cite LessWrong for Christ's sake. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I realized I just chastised you for the inanity of the essay, rather than refuting your central point, so let's do that too. Activism frequently and generally centers on approaching a goal. Anti-war activism doesn't demonize soldiers or politicians, for example. It just opposes military solutions to problems. You can find anti-war activists who are anti-(insert person) and make them out to be a demon, but it's neither central nor necessary to the activist approach. I find your accusation mentally lazy, your attitude ignorant of the way general human nature develops enemies(it's not just activists), and kind of insulting, even though I'm not myself much of an activist for anything. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:37, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I was there, and actually starting to pay attention, during the wind-down of the Vietnam War. "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"[1] It is at least historically false that "Anti-war activism doesn't demonize soldiers or politicians..." It may have been that the Vietnam War was a big enough deal to justify resort to activism, but again, activism needs an enemy with a subhuman face. But the call-out culture is simply a self-righteous brand of performance art. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 18:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've pointed out before that this is part of your issue; you continue to frame everything regarding activism, argument, etc., in terms of the late 1960s/early 1970s activism. It's very nice and historical, but does not necessarily apply to modern day activism. Frankly, your insistence that activism, feminism, and other facets of human nature haven't progressed or changed since before I was born doesn't hold up. You remind me of TERFs who insist that all feminism ended at 2nd Wave Dworkinism and hasn't moved since. --Castaigne (talk) 18:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Human nature has progressed or changed? Really? Now, the kinds of activism being discussed in the blog in question get criticized for being sanctimonious, aggressive, disproportionate, fanatical, and oblivious to context. I'm skeptical that other kinds of activism are even possible. But even if there's some other kind of activism that's full of hugs and flowers, this is not it. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- The amount of disproportionate sanctimony and aggression in this post says more than enough about the relevance of "activism" to that equation. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- You keep confusing processes and procedures with people. I'm talking about activism and methods thereof, not human nature. The map is not the territory. --Castaigne (talk) 22:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I follow the point you're making here. You were the one who said that human nature had changed over the past thirty-odd years. I'm fairly sure it hasn't. I cheerfully admit that one of the dangers of anti-activist activism is becoming the enemy. Activism leads to an arms race. And people generally aren't even aware of their actual worst behaviors. They are so current and respectable. History only sees them in hindsight. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 03:16, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- No, I did not say that human nature has changed over the past 30-odd years. Activism and the processes thereof has changed over the past 30-odd years. Activism is not human nature, and no amount of you trying to conflate the two will make it so. --Castaigne (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- That isn't what you wrote; so it goes. I'm not sure how you'd go about quantifying this -- counting numbers of pressure groups or trying to make an algorithm that measures hostility in texts, maybe -- but it seems to me that the tide of moralistic aggression is unacceptably high and rising. We're in the middle of a great civil rights catastrophe -- people being segregated, shunned, and driven out into the cold, constantly facing signs that they're unwelcome -- one that's even elaborated its own form of "scientific racism", and people who haven't met me may be hard pressed to figure out what I'm talking about. How is present day activism less cruel or invasive than the forms it took some decades ago? I'm not seeing that. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 18:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I follow you here. If we date the modern activist movement as something that started with abolitionism, was energized by the suffragettes and arguably enjoyed its best days in the last half of the 20th century with a variety of movements ranging from anti-colonialism (including apartheid), anti-racism movements in the Americas (civil rights, Black Power, Red Power), anti-war and anti-nuke activism, the women's liberation movement, the Stonewall moment and its legacy, and a host of others -- you characterise these as "cruel or invasive"? Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 18:46, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- That isn't what you wrote; so it goes. I'm not sure how you'd go about quantifying this -- counting numbers of pressure groups or trying to make an algorithm that measures hostility in texts, maybe -- but it seems to me that the tide of moralistic aggression is unacceptably high and rising. We're in the middle of a great civil rights catastrophe -- people being segregated, shunned, and driven out into the cold, constantly facing signs that they're unwelcome -- one that's even elaborated its own form of "scientific racism", and people who haven't met me may be hard pressed to figure out what I'm talking about. How is present day activism less cruel or invasive than the forms it took some decades ago? I'm not seeing that. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 18:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- No, I did not say that human nature has changed over the past 30-odd years. Activism and the processes thereof has changed over the past 30-odd years. Activism is not human nature, and no amount of you trying to conflate the two will make it so. --Castaigne (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I follow the point you're making here. You were the one who said that human nature had changed over the past thirty-odd years. I'm fairly sure it hasn't. I cheerfully admit that one of the dangers of anti-activist activism is becoming the enemy. Activism leads to an arms race. And people generally aren't even aware of their actual worst behaviors. They are so current and respectable. History only sees them in hindsight. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 03:16, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
- Human nature has progressed or changed? Really? Now, the kinds of activism being discussed in the blog in question get criticized for being sanctimonious, aggressive, disproportionate, fanatical, and oblivious to context. I'm skeptical that other kinds of activism are even possible. But even if there's some other kind of activism that's full of hugs and flowers, this is not it. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've pointed out before that this is part of your issue; you continue to frame everything regarding activism, argument, etc., in terms of the late 1960s/early 1970s activism. It's very nice and historical, but does not necessarily apply to modern day activism. Frankly, your insistence that activism, feminism, and other facets of human nature haven't progressed or changed since before I was born doesn't hold up. You remind me of TERFs who insist that all feminism ended at 2nd Wave Dworkinism and hasn't moved since. --Castaigne (talk) 18:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- I was there, and actually starting to pay attention, during the wind-down of the Vietnam War. "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"[1] It is at least historically false that "Anti-war activism doesn't demonize soldiers or politicians..." It may have been that the Vietnam War was a big enough deal to justify resort to activism, but again, activism needs an enemy with a subhuman face. But the call-out culture is simply a self-righteous brand of performance art. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 18:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Activists will always need somebody to dehumanize, because that's what activism is. Activists are people who make enemies lists. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 17:26, 4 March 2015 (UTC)