Talk:Aliensdidit
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Guys, maybe stop for a moment and decide if this should be moved to/continued on a debate page? {{User:k61824/Sig|}} 01:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC) | Guys, maybe stop for a moment and decide if this should be moved to/continued on a debate page? {{User:k61824/Sig|}} 01:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
:It's ok here, it's vaguely on-topic, and it's not clogging up a major talk page like the bar or wigocp. {{User:Human/sig|}} 02:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC) | :It's ok here, it's vaguely on-topic, and it's not clogging up a major talk page like the bar or wigocp. {{User:Human/sig|}} 02:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
| + | :: remember in the Lenski experiment E Coli HAS the ability to use citrates as a food supply, but not in presence of oxygen. That seems to be a shorter step to cross than to develop the ability to use citrate from scratch. Is there any evidence that non-expressed genes are really stashed there and not simply evolutionery remnants ? (if thats the right way to say it) Seems remarkably stupid of a designer to leave out resistance to various diseases if it was storing other stuff away. [[User:Hamster|Hamster]] 21:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 21:56, 16 May 2009
Infinite regression
I removed (except not at all, since genetic engineering is a much more parsimonious explanation) because it leads to the infinite regression of who designed the designer and ultimately - goddidit. --Edgerunner76Your views are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter 13:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Not at all, though. The designers could have arisen spontaneously, or be self-existent. There are many branches in the regression prior to "goddidit." Ungtss 14:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- At best, that sounds like nothing more than an even wilder speculation than aliensdidit is in the first place. At worst, it sounds like you jumped straight to goddidit. --Edgerunner76Your views are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter 14:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- How so? Why is it reasonable to think the universe (in all its complexity) is self-existent, but not to think there might be a self-existent form of life in the universe? Ungtss 14:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the universe is here. I/We are in it. It's all around me/us. I/we can see/hear/touch/taste (to one extent or another) it. Where is this self-existent lifeform? --Edgerunner76Your views are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter 14:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's conflating two questions, I think -- the existence of the lifeform, and whether or not it's self-existent. If we assume the existence of the life-form (which we're doing in the aliensdidit scenario), then the only remaining question is whether he can be self-existent, or must be evolved or madebygod. I don't see any reason it couldn't be self-existent, since we're already assuming all sorts of other highly complex stuff is. Again, this isn't to prove that this hypothetical being exists. Only to show that there's no infinite regression to goddidit ... Ungtss 15:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ungtss, I'm curious what you mean by "self-existent"? Do your mean a creature that by its very definition must exist? ħuman
23:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Good question ... And close. What I mean is a being that was not created, but "just is." Same as the atheist vision of a universe that "just is," uncreated, unevolved -- "just is" like an atom "just is," except alive. Ungtss 23:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- So it "spontaneously arose"? ħuman
23:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- could be. Or could have always been. Like the incredible complexity of the universe and its laws in the atheist vision. Or something else, I don't know. The only point of significance to me is that it or they could be very very different from us, such that there's no infinite regress. I'm not particularly interested in that question because I lack the tools. But I don't think the absence of an adequate answer to that question precludes the possibility that somebody built us. Ungtss 23:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- So it "spontaneously arose"? ħuman
- Good question ... And close. What I mean is a being that was not created, but "just is." Same as the atheist vision of a universe that "just is," uncreated, unevolved -- "just is" like an atom "just is," except alive. Ungtss 23:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ungtss, I'm curious what you mean by "self-existent"? Do your mean a creature that by its very definition must exist? ħuman
- That's conflating two questions, I think -- the existence of the lifeform, and whether or not it's self-existent. If we assume the existence of the life-form (which we're doing in the aliensdidit scenario), then the only remaining question is whether he can be self-existent, or must be evolved or madebygod. I don't see any reason it couldn't be self-existent, since we're already assuming all sorts of other highly complex stuff is. Again, this isn't to prove that this hypothetical being exists. Only to show that there's no infinite regression to goddidit ... Ungtss 15:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the universe is here. I/We are in it. It's all around me/us. I/we can see/hear/touch/taste (to one extent or another) it. Where is this self-existent lifeform? --Edgerunner76Your views are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter 14:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- How so? Why is it reasonable to think the universe (in all its complexity) is self-existent, but not to think there might be a self-existent form of life in the universe? Ungtss 14:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- At best, that sounds like nothing more than an even wilder speculation than aliensdidit is in the first place. At worst, it sounds like you jumped straight to goddidit. --Edgerunner76Your views are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter 14:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm. By the way, "my" aliensdidit wild ass guess, based on what appears to be common descent from very simple life forms, is that Earth was "bug bombed" 3.5 billion years ago. A bug bomb is a small capsule containing very rudimentary seeds of life that can survive in a given pre-life environment. The element of design is in (besides the rocketry, etc.) coming up with self-replicators that can function in a simple, and probably quite harsh, environment. Oh, and figuring out where to "seed" them. Let's say some critters developed ftl transport, but only fairly simple molecules could survive it. So they can't go across the universe themselves (yet at least), but they could try to locate likely planets to transport simple chunks of RNA-like material to. Perhaps even thousands of differing versions of simple chemicals, and let them "fight it out". In hopes of someday visiting the places they seeded, this might even be stage one of their asking "could complex life arise from these simple molecules in such-and-such an environment?" - especially if they weren't really far away. As far as "somebody built us", that is a very complex explanation because they'd have to build, what, all the other species on the planet? Or did they observe this planet, replete with DNA-based life, and then build the first humans from scratch using a similar blueprint and drop them off here? ħuman
00:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting hypothesis! I like to try and tie in as much ancient history as I can ... and the universality of historical records documenting encounters between humans and the creators in every culture lead me to believe 1) that the 'gods' of history and the creators are most likely the same entities, such that 2) they lived here for a while among us, and interbred with us. This is premised, of course, on my taking those ancient histories to be at least somewhat credible -- which somebody else might reasonably choose not to do. As to whether they built all the species on the planet, not necessarily all, but prototypes. For instance, you build a population of "felines" with a high degree of heterozygosity in the population. Then, over time, evolution causes subpopulations to speciate within different ecological niches. Thus natural selection weeded out the "non-tiger" genes in the feline populations in the jungle, and the "non-lion genes" in the feline populations on the sahel. The trunk of the tree of life is very wide, and the branches become thinner and thinner. That, to me, is most consistent with the evidence we have so far. The fossil record is replete with species that are more complex, larger, and more dynamic than the species of today. Dinosaurs reduced to alligators. Mammoths reduced to elephants. Etc. Ungtss 00:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Lemurs "elevated" to humans... ħuman
01:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Back to hetero-homo-zygosity, are we? I think this is where we came in... Anyway, the way I tend to look at this is to put my self in the place of the alien. For starts, oxygen is a highly reactive element/gas, and why would I waste my time "seeding life" on a planet that had already developed oxygen-fixing life? The entire animal kingdom is dependent on oxygen, and much of the plant kingdom is dependent on various animal activities. The fossil record is also replete with species that are bigger/sillier/more "complex"/smarter/dumber/faster/slower than their ancestors. ħuman
01:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- My hypothesis is 1) lemurs did not elevate to humans -- the two species are biologically unrelated, and 2) the Earth was terraformed with both plants and animals by the creators. This is based on my impression that common descent is a ludicrously improbability, and that the purposeful creation of an integrated ecosystem is a much more reasonable interpretation of the evidence. Ungtss 05:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- You think that is less ludicrously improbably than something as simple as common descent? Also, "the purposeful creation of an integrated ecosystem" happens how? What do the animals breathe while the plants get going? What do the plants grow in while the soil develops? Your hypothesis has alligators descending from dinosaurs, but not modern mammals descending from their "lemur-like" ancestors? ħuman
06:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do -- because it explains observed evolution without the need for the unobserved claims of the theory. Consider dogs. Allow all the domesticated breeds to breed freely for a few generations, and you end up with a relatively homogenous population ... But that population is highly heterozygous. It is then possible to use selection for certain traits to create breeds. I think life was originally created in that homogenous, heterozygous form and then speciated by selection ... Because that's what we observe in biology, not an unlimited seamless universal tree of life. Ungtss 14:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Do you feel like explaining that in terms of creatures that reproduce asexually? ħuman
19:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Do you feel like explaining that in terms of creatures that reproduce asexually? ħuman
- I do -- because it explains observed evolution without the need for the unobserved claims of the theory. Consider dogs. Allow all the domesticated breeds to breed freely for a few generations, and you end up with a relatively homogenous population ... But that population is highly heterozygous. It is then possible to use selection for certain traits to create breeds. I think life was originally created in that homogenous, heterozygous form and then speciated by selection ... Because that's what we observe in biology, not an unlimited seamless universal tree of life. Ungtss 14:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- You think that is less ludicrously improbably than something as simple as common descent? Also, "the purposeful creation of an integrated ecosystem" happens how? What do the animals breathe while the plants get going? What do the plants grow in while the soil develops? Your hypothesis has alligators descending from dinosaurs, but not modern mammals descending from their "lemur-like" ancestors? ħuman
- My hypothesis is 1) lemurs did not elevate to humans -- the two species are biologically unrelated, and 2) the Earth was terraformed with both plants and animals by the creators. This is based on my impression that common descent is a ludicrously improbability, and that the purposeful creation of an integrated ecosystem is a much more reasonable interpretation of the evidence. Ungtss 05:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Lemurs "elevated" to humans... ħuman
- the very concept and definition of species is controversial among Asexual organisms, but generally speaking, I think the strongest explanation lies in epigenetics. Many asexual organisms contain highly sophisticated sequences that remain unexpressed until a single point mutation causes them to be expressed. In other words they appear to be preloaded with variations that are easily accessible when needed. How did this complex unused unexpressed sequences get there? I think someone put them there in case they became needed. The classic example here is the lenski e coli experiment. The code was already there. It just needed to be switched on. Ungtss 21:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Many"? If it's an explanation, is has to cover "all". So anyway,
Godthe alien designers built in a switchable "ability to digest nylon" just in case we invented it? Or is there a similarly "switched off" gene in some plant or animal that would allow said critter to make nylon? I guess we ought to look for that... ħuman
01:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Lenski experiment showed metabolism of citrate. That's a very useful capability to keep in your back pocket. That's why epigenetics is so remarkable -- it shows that variation is not random. Variation is highly targetted in areas where it is useful -- for instance, producing new enzymes to chow on new food sources. We're just beginning to figure out what those epigenetic mechanism are, but one thing is clear -- the answer's not nearly as simple as pure random mutation. Something is telling these organisms how to vary in order to survive, and I find that spectacular. Ungtss 17:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Something is telling these organisms how to vary in order to survive..." I find that to be one heck of an assertion. ħuman
21:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Something is telling these organisms how to vary in order to survive..." I find that to be one heck of an assertion. ħuman
- The Lenski experiment showed metabolism of citrate. That's a very useful capability to keep in your back pocket. That's why epigenetics is so remarkable -- it shows that variation is not random. Variation is highly targetted in areas where it is useful -- for instance, producing new enzymes to chow on new food sources. We're just beginning to figure out what those epigenetic mechanism are, but one thing is clear -- the answer's not nearly as simple as pure random mutation. Something is telling these organisms how to vary in order to survive, and I find that spectacular. Ungtss 17:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Many"? If it's an explanation, is has to cover "all". So anyway,
Guys, maybe stop for a moment and decide if this should be moved to/continued on a debate page? ThiehMonitoring virgin birth experiment 01:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's ok here, it's vaguely on-topic, and it's not clogging up a major talk page like the bar or wigocp. ħuman
02:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- remember in the Lenski experiment E Coli HAS the ability to use citrates as a food supply, but not in presence of oxygen. That seems to be a shorter step to cross than to develop the ability to use citrate from scratch. Is there any evidence that non-expressed genes are really stashed there and not simply evolutionery remnants ? (if thats the right way to say it) Seems remarkably stupid of a designer to leave out resistance to various diseases if it was storing other stuff away. Hamster 21:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)