Talk:Anti-vaccination movement
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:*If you doubt that this Mennonites case occurred, I can give you a contact at the department of health. If you do not dispute that it occurred, but only its relevance, we don't have to waste time. I did not draw the rational conclusion from the Mennonite perspective, but to them it must seem to be confirmation (based on their experience) that Polio vaccines are bad. | :*If you doubt that this Mennonites case occurred, I can give you a contact at the department of health. If you do not dispute that it occurred, but only its relevance, we don't have to waste time. I did not draw the rational conclusion from the Mennonite perspective, but to them it must seem to be confirmation (based on their experience) that Polio vaccines are bad. | ||
:Regarding anecdotal information: | :Regarding anecdotal information: | ||
| − | :*The adverse reaction of my niece is anecdotal. However, science is not about filtering such information. | + | :*The adverse reaction of my niece is anecdotal. However, science is not about filtering such information. In the case of the taxpayer funded CDC, the CDC *appears* to not be forthright in providing a complete education on vaccines that are "required." This [http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=smallpox+adverse+reactions+cdc cdc (smallpox adverse reactions cdc) image search on google] shows a link to the CDC in the first 3 hits. However, this [http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=measles+adverse+reactions+cdc (measles adverse reactions cdc) image search on google] does not turn up anything from the CDC on the first three *pages*. |
:The reason I am debating is because this article is portraying anti-vaccination sentiment as "hysteria." It is not pure baseless hysteria. At worst, it is rational hysteria and at best just rational. | :The reason I am debating is because this article is portraying anti-vaccination sentiment as "hysteria." It is not pure baseless hysteria. At worst, it is rational hysteria and at best just rational. | ||
:What you call ''annecdotal'' I contend can be referred to as a counter example (something that is sometimes useful in the realm of [[falsifiability]]). Regarding citing sources, I provided what I thought were some very high quality sources. The other stuff is public knowledge and or obvious opinion, but let me know which items you want references for. | :What you call ''annecdotal'' I contend can be referred to as a counter example (something that is sometimes useful in the realm of [[falsifiability]]). Regarding citing sources, I provided what I thought were some very high quality sources. The other stuff is public knowledge and or obvious opinion, but let me know which items you want references for. | ||
:Now, if you just don't want to expend energy debating whether or not the anti-vaccine movement is hysterical, how you decide to spend your time is up to you. But if you want to consider alternative perspectives, I am offering mine, on the talk page, per request (with some cites). [[User:HeartOfGold|Heart<big><font color="gold">♥</font></big>Gold]] [[User_talk:HeartOfGold|<sup><small>tx</small></sup>]] 09:13, 29 June 2007 (CDT) | :Now, if you just don't want to expend energy debating whether or not the anti-vaccine movement is hysterical, how you decide to spend your time is up to you. But if you want to consider alternative perspectives, I am offering mine, on the talk page, per request (with some cites). [[User:HeartOfGold|Heart<big><font color="gold">♥</font></big>Gold]] [[User_talk:HeartOfGold|<sup><small>tx</small></sup>]] 09:13, 29 June 2007 (CDT) | ||
Revision as of 14:17, 29 June 2007
A few more "concerns"
- Diabetes [1]
- Aluminum causes Alzheimer's [2]
- Misc concerns, heavy metals, drug companies are evil [3]
- Maybe i'll save some of these for another article?--PalMD-yada yada 14:58, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- My memory's a bit fuzzy (ha!), but wasn't there serious study at one point on aluminium and Alzheimer's? If that's the case, it's more a case of the public perception being outdated than anything. Makes me wonder if the current research into Omega-3's impact on dementia doesn't pan out in the end, we'll be talking about it in the same way in a decade's time. --Kels 15:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Such is the way of medicine. We were sure vitamin E was good, but it actually increases mortality once we studied it. That is why it is unwise to draw conclusions without data. Perhaps aluminum was found in Alzheimers plaques, but that says nothing about exogenous alum. intake. Medicine is full of examples of decisions being made because they "made sense" but later turned out to be wrong when subjected to the harsh scrutiny of statistics.--PalMD-yada yada 15:26, 22 June 2007 (CDT) 15:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- True, but it was a valid line of inquiry, even if it panned out. Calling it a "concern" seems a bit misplaced, since it seems more a case of the public awareness catching up with the research more than something groundless. --Kels 16:07, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Such is the way of medicine. We were sure vitamin E was good, but it actually increases mortality once we studied it. That is why it is unwise to draw conclusions without data. Perhaps aluminum was found in Alzheimers plaques, but that says nothing about exogenous alum. intake. Medicine is full of examples of decisions being made because they "made sense" but later turned out to be wrong when subjected to the harsh scrutiny of statistics.--PalMD-yada yada 15:26, 22 June 2007 (CDT) 15:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- My memory's a bit fuzzy (ha!), but wasn't there serious study at one point on aluminium and Alzheimer's? If that's the case, it's more a case of the public perception being outdated than anything. Makes me wonder if the current research into Omega-3's impact on dementia doesn't pan out in the end, we'll be talking about it in the same way in a decade's time. --Kels 15:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
Contents |
Shaping up well
This is shaping up well, I think we should work in the autism omnibus trial thats happening, do you want me to work on that? Tmtoulouse 14:19, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- That'd be great, thanks.--PalMD-yada yada 14:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Cool, my ability to work on it today will be sporadic but I will get it done. Tmtoulouse 14:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- I would actually love help from someone on the thimerosal section, perhaps one of our chemists?--PalMD-yada yada 14:32, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Cool, my ability to work on it today will be sporadic but I will get it done. Tmtoulouse 14:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Im debating finding a place for abandoned unsafe vaccines, like rotavirus, and for HPV vaccine controversy.--PalMD-yada yada 12:38, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
- The CDC is quite frank about side effects of these (small pox photos are scary). You won't find such photos for required vaccines, though, because the CDC's purpose is to control disease (read: propagandize), not provide the pros and real cons of vaccines, which would freighten some. Heart♥Gold tx 22:44, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Getting rid of polio and smallpox seems like pretty big 'pro's to me. What have you got for 'con's? --Gulik 20:14, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
- You won't find a lot of those other photos because they don't exist. Smallpox has well-recognized risks which are proven. The other vaccines do not. No great pics to show off.--PalMD-yada yada 21:43, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
- The photos I was referring to were photos of adverse reactions due to the smallpox vaccine (read: cowpox infection). The CDC is forthright on adverse reactions when they are not tasked with propaganizing for the vaccine. You won't find many photos at CDC on adverse reactions due to other vaccines, but if you want, I can send you one of my neice's reaction to measles vaccine. I'll even arrange to give permission to the CDC to display the photo to educate taxpaying citizens about the risks of measles vaccines, so that members of the "herd" can make informed decisions. But the CDC is not about educating, they are about propagandizing to further their reason for existence: Control disease at a population level, loosers of the vacination lottery be damned. (Well, there is an "insurance program" to pay money to the loosers, but they are still loosers.)
- Arguably, the rate of Polio outbreaks went down as much due to education and chlorinated pools as to the vaccine, or so I have heard it argued convincingly, from my recollection.
- The last 5 cases of Polio in my state occurred not long ago, and based on the information I have from the health department (very reliable source), it was due to a child being immunized in another country with live vaccine, having a suppressed immune system, and spreading it to four other unvaccinated Mennonites in my state after the child traveled here.
- Which should be another article...the use of live vaccine in Africa by Bill Gates' foundation as a part of a (kinder, gentler, and economical philanthropic) strategy to immunize more children...
- It backfires, because every time a child in some village gets polio after getting vaccinated, the mother stands outside the missionary (secular humanism) polio clinic warning other parents about the vaccine. Whether or not the child got polio from the live vaccine is beside the point; it is reasonable for an uneducated African mother to believe a fellow African mother caring for a polio victim over some white dudes and dudettes on a mission. You would do the same if you were in that position (uneducated, poor, neighbor's child suffering in front of your own eyes).
- Try as they might, the white missionaries for secular humanism just can't make headway with "Who are you going to believe, your lieing eyes or my scientific studies" arguments.
- The backfire: Fewer children are getting vaccinated.[citation needed] It would have been better to buy the safer vaccine. And more economical, in the end. Heart♥Gold tx 22:04, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
- Your niece's case, while important to her and her family, is not all that relevant as a single case report. Your "recollection" that chlorinating pools made a bigger difference than vaccines with polio is also not particularly relevant.--PalMD-yada yada 08:06, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
Sleep apnea
I have seen studies that indicate what the image to the right indicate, namely, that sleep apnea is correlated to DPaT vaccination. Now, I do understand that the rate of SIDS does seem to be independant of DPaT, but failing to mention the initial (and maybe confirmed) findings that DPaT does seem to have an affect regarding sleep apnea will not convince anybody capable of read an article with big words in it. Heart♥Gold tx 20:56, 27 June 2007 (CDT)- That graph is, first, of one child. now, I hate to sound like a vaccine apologist, but some changes are to be expected after the introduction of a vaccine into the body. After all, the immune system is being triggered, and is developing defenses (antibodies) against whatever the vaccine is intended to protect against. humanbe in 21:06, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Sorry, I have to add to the chorus. A bar graph on the sleeping habits of a single child, measured god-knows-how, might as well not exist, it is such weak evidence.--PalMD-yada yada 21:08, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I will look for a study. I have it in my notes somewhere...have to search through a lot of files. Regarding criticism of this graph--that is why it is in the talk page and not the article. Also, I think the official argument is that while there may be a relationship to apnea and some vaccines, there is no such relationship for vaccines and SIDS (and there are some good studies on this second point, according to my recollection--if I remember correctly, all of Japan stopped the DPT or DPaT vaccine, and the SIDS rate was not affected. Regarding apnea, devices exist to measure it, I think they have even been approved by the FDA.Heart♥Gold tx 22:34, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Sorry, I have to add to the chorus. A bar graph on the sleeping habits of a single child, measured god-knows-how, might as well not exist, it is such weak evidence.--PalMD-yada yada 21:08, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
neologism?
"If anti-vaccine ideas are to impact macro vaccination policy"
What is "macro vaccination" and where did the phrase come from? humanbe in 20:57, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- The point is, policy is done by analyzing populations. The wording may be ackward, I just wanted to draw attention to the fact the policy for vaccination is a lot like deciding whether or not to drop a nuclear bomb: well, if we don't, X million will die, if we do, only Y hundred thousand will die. Heart♥Gold tx 21:01, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Actually, samples are studied, and then conclusions are extrapolated to populations. Individuals really can't be studied, although and RCT with N=1 would be ideal, it is impossible.--PalMD-yada yada 21:09, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Since it is a made up phrase I am going to remove the word "macro". humanbe in 21:18, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- nevermind, HG beat me to it. Oh, and with vaccination, the "gains" are better than the 10:1 in the comment above. humanbe in 21:22, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I don't want to open up the debate, but I do not dispute that vaccination programs make sense at a macro level. And since I am taking advantage of the "herd" being vaccinated, I am not really desiring to propagandize for my personal beliefs. However, I will critique this article if you want it to be more effective at convincing others that vaccines are perfectly safe. Heart♥Gold tx 22:38, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- nevermind, HG beat me to it. Oh, and with vaccination, the "gains" are better than the 10:1 in the comment above. humanbe in 21:22, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Since it is a made up phrase I am going to remove the word "macro". humanbe in 21:18, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I appreciated it, but let's keep it to the talk page and try to develop stuff to move over.--PalMD-yada yada 22:39, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Actually, samples are studied, and then conclusions are extrapolated to populations. Individuals really can't be studied, although and RCT with N=1 would be ideal, it is impossible.--PalMD-yada yada 21:09, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
Some interesting studies to look for
Just found some notes...
- D. C. Christie, et al., "The 1993 Epidemic of Pertussis in Cincinnati: Resurgence of Disease in a Highly Immunized Population of Children," New England Journal of Medicine (July 7, 1994), pp. 16-20.
- Analysis of the study shows ineffective vaccine was probably not the largest part of the story. Even small reductions in herd immunity can contribute to outbreak. Letter was published Nov 24, 1994, NEJM.--PalMD-yada yada 22:52, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I don't suppose they offer free trial memberships at the NEJM? Heart♥Gold tx 22:59, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- M. E. Pichichero, et al., "Diphtheria-Pertussis-Tetanus Vaccine: Reactogenicity of Commercial Products," Pediatrics (Feb. 1979), pp. 256-260.
- Dr. Viera Scheibner and Leif Karlsson, "Association Between Non-Specific Stress Syndrome, DPT Injections, and Cot Death," (2nd Immunization Conference, Canberra, Australia, May 27-29, 1991).
- W. C. Torch, "Diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus (DPT) immunization: A potential cause of the sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS)," (Amer. Academy of Neurology, 34th Annual Meeting, Apr 25 - May 1, 1982), Neurology 32(4), pt. 2.
- In 1993, during a pertussis outbreak, 82 percent of children stricken with the disease had received regular doses of the vaccine.
- Susceptibility to pertussis 12 years after full vaccination may be as high as 95 percent.
- One study has shown a strong correlation between the DPT vaccination and a dramatic increase in apnea and hypopnea episodes.
- Another study noted a bimodal increase in the occurrence of SIDS at two and four months of age, when the DPT shots are usually administered.
- Raising eyebrows: While correlation does not in itself establish causation, it neither disestablishes causation.
- That's all for now. Gotta go camp with the children in the yard. Heart♥Gold tx 22:50, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Don't forget to use DEET.--PalMD-yada yada 22:53, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- We have a tent:) Young children, just camping in the yard...after watching a recording of America's funniest videos. Heart♥Gold tx 22:54, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- If you have an email, ill try to send you the text.--PalMD-yada yada 22:59, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- My email is on my account page, or if you want to send non asci, you can try EHeartOfGold@yahoo.com Heart♥Gold tx 19:50, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
Sorry
But this is the whole problem with the anti-vaccine movement. "They" do not cite sources, they do rely on anecdotal info, and they do tend to say "even if science proves it, no one will get it" (education anyone???). Any rational defense of anti-vaccine ideas must include facts, not opinions. I honestly cannot debate anyone who just gives opinions and case studies of N=1.--PalMD-yada yada 08:29, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- PalMD a few point that hopefully will clear things up. If you don't want to debate, that is fine. Really, I am offering what I see as large hurdles you need to overcome to write a convincing article:
- Regarding the African mothers
- It is *rational* for African mothers in the situation I describe to be highly skeptical to the point of refusal. I think that if you try to empathetically put yourself in their shoes, you will admit that you can see how such situations arise. It is not hysteria. I do not say that the mothers are right, or that they have science on their side, but given that frame of reference, their beahavior is highly rational, and not fairly called hysteria. It is a real problem that needs to be dealt with. (BTW, if you haven't heard of such things, I will try to find the NPR program I heard it discussed).
- Regarding the polio case:
- If you doubt that this Mennonites case occurred, I can give you a contact at the department of health. If you do not dispute that it occurred, but only its relevance, we don't have to waste time. I did not draw the rational conclusion from the Mennonite perspective, but to them it must seem to be confirmation (based on their experience) that Polio vaccines are bad.
- Regarding anecdotal information:
- The adverse reaction of my niece is anecdotal. However, science is not about filtering such information. In the case of the taxpayer funded CDC, the CDC *appears* to not be forthright in providing a complete education on vaccines that are "required." This cdc (smallpox adverse reactions cdc) image search on google shows a link to the CDC in the first 3 hits. However, this (measles adverse reactions cdc) image search on google does not turn up anything from the CDC on the first three *pages*.
- The reason I am debating is because this article is portraying anti-vaccination sentiment as "hysteria." It is not pure baseless hysteria. At worst, it is rational hysteria and at best just rational.
- What you call annecdotal I contend can be referred to as a counter example (something that is sometimes useful in the realm of falsifiability). Regarding citing sources, I provided what I thought were some very high quality sources. The other stuff is public knowledge and or obvious opinion, but let me know which items you want references for.
- Now, if you just don't want to expend energy debating whether or not the anti-vaccine movement is hysterical, how you decide to spend your time is up to you. But if you want to consider alternative perspectives, I am offering mine, on the talk page, per request (with some cites). Heart♥Gold tx 09:13, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
