Talk:Herbal supplement
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What this article is talking about is ''Herbal "medicines"'' or ''Herbal treatments''.--[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|<sup>Not Jim</sup>]] 07:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC) | What this article is talking about is ''Herbal "medicines"'' or ''Herbal treatments''.--[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|<sup>Not Jim</sup>]] 07:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
:In the US, calling them "herbal supplements" (dietary supplements) avoids their regulation as drugs. [[User:Sprocket J Cogswell|Sprocket J Cogswell]] 12:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC) | :In the US, calling them "herbal supplements" (dietary supplements) avoids their regulation as drugs. [[User:Sprocket J Cogswell|Sprocket J Cogswell]] 12:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
| + | ::I've added that as a footnote. If you know any more info on it, please feel free to add. {{:User:Armondikov/sig}} 12:40, 23 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 12:40, 23 September 2009
I don't know that you can really apply Dawkins' quote to herbalism as a whole, but rather more specific instances. Most, if not all, herbalists I've known haven't made ridiculous claims, only that readily available herbs and natural ingredients have healthful properties, something medicine doesn't really disagree with. Individual herbalists or companies selling so-called "herbal viagra remedies" may make outlandish claims, but they're not representative of the whole field. --Kels 15:33, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
Contents |
Criticism of Herbalism
It seems fairly obvious that some herbs must work in some sense of the word. The article acknowledges this. My understanding is that problems derive from: 1) Erratic dosage - plants contain different amounts of active ingredient depending on how fresh they are, the season, the soil in which they grew etc etc. This makes dosing a bit hit-or-miss. 2) Purity or contamination - there may not always be stringent quality control systems to ensure the purity of supply. 3) Double blind testing - few (if any) herbs have been subjected to rigorous double blind testing and consequently some work and some don't.--Bob_M (talk) 15:42, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- What I notice is that a large part of the article seems to focus on commercial herbal remedies without noting that this is not representative of all herbalism, although some of the same criticisms apply. --Kels 17:52, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- I'm still working on it, but throw some examples my way for research...this is far from complete.--PalMD-yada yada 17:55, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- Hmm...I'm mainly going from memory and experience here, but if I get a chance later (I'm setting up a site and working on a comic, so I'm a wee bit distracted) I'll look around. --Kels 18:12, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- I'm still working on it, but throw some examples my way for research...this is far from complete.--PalMD-yada yada 17:55, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- Thanks much, K. Any other ideas, shoot them my way.--PalMD-yada yada 18:13, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
Regarding the "woo" section: While it is unfortunately phrased, the gist of the quote presented says to me that there are multiple compounds in a whole plant which may work in concert in ways we do not yet understand, while a single compound extracted and standardized may not have the same effect. We have found that using various medications in combination can produce effects far beyond that of each individual medication. (Sometimes unintended side effects, sometimes a great improvement in the desired effect.) Why is it "woo" to think that additional compounds in a plant which have not been studied can have an impact on the studied compound's effects? Mattev 16:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Praise of Herbalism
ALRIGHT NOW! Won't you listen?
When I first met you, didn't realize I can't forget you, for your surprise you introduced me, to my mind And left me wanting, you and your kind
I love you, Oh you know it
My life was empty, forever on a down Until you took me, showed me around My life is free now, my life is clear I love you sweet leaf, though you can't hear
Come on now, try it out
Straight people don't know, what you're about They put you down and shut you out you gave to me a new belief and soon the world will love you sweet leaf
Purple haze all in my brain
Lately things just dont seem the same
Actin funny, but I dont know why
scuse me while I kiss the sky
Purple haze all around
Dont know if Im comin up or down
Am I happy or in misery?
What ever it is, that girl put a spell on me
Help me
Help me
Oh, no, no
[faint, spoken lyrics...all questionable]
Hammerin
Talkin bout heart n...s-soul
Im talkin about hard stuff
If everbodys still around, fluff and ease, if
So far out my mind
Somethings happening, somethings happening
Ooo, ahhh
Ooo, {click} ahhh,
Ooo, ahhh
Ooo, ahhh, yeah!
Purple haze all in my eyes, uhh
Dont know if its day or night
You got me blowin, blowin my mind
Is it tomorrow, or just the end of time?
Ooo
Help me
Ahh, yea-yeah, purple haze, yeah
Oh, no, oh
Oh, help me
Purple haze, tell me, baby, tell me
I cant go on like this
Purple haze
Youre makin me blow my mind...mama
Purple haze, n-no, nooo
Purple haze, no, its painful, baby
MiddleMan 15:51, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
Outline
I'll be treating this like all the others...give good and bad evidence. I'll touch on how many herbs do have obvious biologic activity, and in fact are the basis for many modern medications. Evidence for and against specific therapies, problems for the field as a whole...poor quality control, poor evidence of efficacy and safety, etc. Areas for advancement...ethnobotany and the search for cures. Many companies combing the rainforest for new molecules.--PalMD-yada yada 16:22, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
Citations
Result 5. Unique Identifier 15047038 Authors Bent S. Ko R. Authors Full Name Bent, Stephen. Ko, Richard. Institution Osher Center for Integrative Medicine, Department of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco, USA. bent@itsa.ucsf.edu Title Commonly used herbal medicines in the United States: a review.[see comment]. [Review] [78 refs] Comments Comment in: Am J Med. 2004 Oct 1;117(7):533; author reply 533; PMID: 15464717 Source American Journal of Medicine. 116(7):478-85, 2004 Apr 1. Local Messages JOURNAL OWNED BY THE BEAUMONT ROYAL OAK AND TROY MEDICAL LIBRARIES. TROY RETAINS CURRENT FIVE YEARS ONLY, AVAILABLE VIA SCIENCEDIRECT STARTING IN 1999, NOTE: VOLUMES OLDER THAN 1996 ARE IN OFF-SITE STORAGE Abstract Herbal medicines are widely used in the United States, with approximately one quarter of adults reporting use of an herb to treat a medical illness within the past year. Herbs contain complicated mixtures of organic chemicals, the levels of which may vary substantially depending upon many factors related to the growth, production, and processing of the herbal product. While many manufacturers attempt to provide products with consistent levels of suspected active ingredients through a process known as standardization, this technique has uncertain effects on the safety and efficacy of the final product. Herbs are considered to be dietary supplements in the United States and therefore are subjected to a very limited form of regulation and oversight. Although herbs are often believed to be "natural" and therefore safe, many dangerous and lethal side effects have recently been reported, including direct toxic effects, allergic reactions, effects from contaminants, and interactions with drugs and other herbs. Of the ten most commonly used herbs in the United States, systematic reviews have concluded that only four are likely to be effective, and there is very limited evidence to evaluate the efficacy of the approximately 20,000 other available herbal products. Because herbs may contain potent bioactive substances and are often marketed to treat specific diseases, many have argued that they should be subject to more stringent regulation, similar to over-the-counter drugs. To improve the safety and consistency of herbs, additional research is needed to define the pharmacology, stability, and bioavailability of these products. [References: 78] Publication Type Journal Article. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't. Review.
Flax seed
I'm not sure if it qualifies as a herbal exactly, but it is a natural plant source that's become an increasingly commonly used alternative to the fairly harsh chemical laxatives on the market. When I was doing my mentorship for personal care work, the long-term facility that I was at (Oakwood Terrace, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada) had recently completed a study where they gave ground flax seed in morning meals on a regular basis to individuals who normally used laxatives. They found that their use of chemical laxatives dropped something like 80% within a very short time, with equivalent results as far as resident health was concerned. Further, they were able to avoid some of the side effects of regular use of chemical laxatives, so it was a net gain, to say nothing of the lower cost of the flax seed. --Kels 19:12, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- Trepel, Friedrich. Arzt fur Allgemeinmedizin a.D., Karlsruhe, Deutschland. [Dietary fibre: more than a matter of dietetics. II. Preventative and therapeutic uses]. Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift. 116(15-16):511-22, 2004 Aug 31.
- Only published study I could find on the topic. My guess is it's much more common in Europe.User:PalMD 19:20, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- It's gained a lot of traction in Canada. Back east, most of the long-term facilities are switching over. I wasn't sure if it would qualify, but it does point out the fact that some manufactured medications have downsides that a less processed alternative addresses. But again, it varies considerably from one product to another. --Kels 21:05, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- Yes, although flax seed is not too much different from psyllium fiber (metamucil) and makes not dramatic claims. It has a plausible, well-described mechanism of action. As some one said, alternative medicine is medicine that hasn't yet become mainstream. --PalMD-yada yada 21:41, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
- It's gained a lot of traction in Canada. Back east, most of the long-term facilities are switching over. I wasn't sure if it would qualify, but it does point out the fact that some manufactured medications have downsides that a less processed alternative addresses. But again, it varies considerably from one product to another. --Kels 21:05, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
cover story
(please do not archive this section)
- SusanG - nominated it, so probably "yes"
- Yes, it's a good article and smack dab "on mission" human
11:27, 29 January 2008 (EST)
- In the absence of any dissent (or, for that matter, any discussion!) I'm going to tag it "approved" now. human
21:11, 11 February 2008 (EST)
The indefinite article and the letter H
an "herbal remedy"
Just so you know, it sounds utterly foreign to European ears. We pronounce the H. Brianetta 18:49, 22 February 2008 (EST)
- Both some versions of Commlish and Amlish leave an H such as this as not much more than an aspiration. Of course, this particular one is a more defined difference. Ironically, this is the only "leading H" the British pronounce, IIRC. human
20:03, 22 February 2008 (EST)
- That does rather depend on regional accent. Britain has several hundred of those, some unintelligible even to other Britons. Most people I know would, for example, pronounce the H in 'hotel' or 'hospital', but not 'have.' It's a laziness thing, rather than a grammar thing.Brianetta 08:16, 4 March 2008 (EST)
"Clinically proven"
What does it mean? Many herbal "remedies" are "clinically proven", especially the really suspicious ones. The fact that the word "proven" is even in there makes me even more suspicious. Does anyone know the legal requirements to use this phrase on an herbal supplement? JazzMan 01:50, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
Valerian Root
Valerian Root make ya sleep. It works just fine ! Rest is hocus pocus. But That stuff knocks ya out if you take toom uch! cheers fellas
Aspirin
Many people use willow bark instead of aspirin.
Aspirin, of course, is an extract from willow bark, as are all salicylates. http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blaspirin.htm
The father of modern medicine was Hippocrates, who lived sometime between 460 B.C and 377 B.C. Hippocrates was left historical records of pain relief treatments, including the use of powder made from the bark and leaves of the willow tree to help heal headaches, pains and fevers.
By 1829, scientists discovered that it was the compound called salicin in willow plants which gave you the pain relief.
Might be an interesting point to mention. Many useful compounds are found in plants. Mattev 16:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it's clear that at a certain point herbalism works - but I don't think the article denies this. But problems are caused by erratic dosing as plants may vary; questions of purity or contamination; and the lack of double-blind testing. It might be better if these problems were more clearly expressed.--Bobbing up 17:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- "Aspirin, of course, is an extract from willow bark" no it isn't, it is synthesized. Its usefulness to us, of course, does date back to chewing willow bark to ease toothache... ħuman
02:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- "Aspirin, of course, is an extract from willow bark" no it isn't, it is synthesized. Its usefulness to us, of course, does date back to chewing willow bark to ease toothache... ħuman
Picture
St John's wort is a pretty flower, but wouldn't the article be better served by a picture of the pill rather than the plant, as that's what people actually take? Totnesmartin 08:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- When I was into that kind of stuff, I preferred to take the tincture, either dropped right onto the tongue or in some tisane or other. My German friend, now an MD, told me that they said the plant was only effective if harvested after St. John's day, a week or so after the summer solstice. So it would seem that there are those who use the plant itself. A pill is a pill, looking a lot like most other pills. What would be the value of such an image? If they want pix of pills, let them read the PDR. Having said that, I recuse myself, since I posted that image. Sprocket J Cogswell 02:04, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- Both might be funny... if handled well. ħuman
02:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- Both might be funny... if handled well. ħuman
Article name
Is this article well named? To my mind a "supplement" is something you take in addition to something else. Perhaps you feel that you need something additional in your diet like iron.
What this article is talking about is Herbal "medicines" or Herbal treatments.--BobNot Jim 07:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- In the US, calling them "herbal supplements" (dietary supplements) avoids their regulation as drugs. Sprocket J Cogswell 12:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- I've added that as a footnote. If you know any more info on it, please feel free to add.
postate 12:40, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- I've added that as a footnote. If you know any more info on it, please feel free to add.