Talk:Intelligent design

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I don't follow your argument. I know only that scientists claim it to be true, which is the kind of thing that has them scrambling for a rational, non-supernatural explanation.  
 
I don't follow your argument. I know only that scientists claim it to be true, which is the kind of thing that has them scrambling for a rational, non-supernatural explanation.  
 
   
 
   
// we have more proof of evolution than intelligent design.
 
 
 
// ... it isn't rational to get pissed. I don't get pissed. I only get pissed ...  
 
// ... it isn't rational to get pissed. I don't get pissed. I only get pissed ...  
  
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If it transpires that you teach both sociology AND deconstructionism (acronym SAD), i withdaws me whole critique.
 
If it transpires that you teach both sociology AND deconstructionism (acronym SAD), i withdaws me whole critique.
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[[User:Rembrandt.ryan|<span style="color:blue">Rem</span>]][[User_Talk:Rembrandt.ryan|<span style="color:blue"><sup>Beau</sup></span>]] 13:55, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Revision as of 17:55, 8 July 2008

Contents

Intro

Isn't ID regarded as a pseudoscience by mainstream science in general? Is there any professional outside of a narrow group of IDers who takes it seriously? --Kels 18:40, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

Nope. Which just shows how HUGE AND INSIDIOUS the Evil Liberal Science Conspiracy is!!!1one!!@!1!! --Gulik 18:55, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

Personally, ID pisses me off. What was that about a wolf wrapped in sheep's clothing? This major issue of ID and why it is so bad in the US is that so many people in the US do not understand logic and therefore do not understand science. Take for example the millions (3 million) viewers of Pat Robinson's 700 club (I enjoy posting on their forums about evolution and science, they seem to hate the "Learned Man" there ). They report on all of these pseudo sciences as fact and even promote a few of them. The issue is that the viewers spread this nonsense to others and end up confusing people of what the facts are. The Discovery Institute knows this works in the US and is using ID to accomplish their religious goals. I always found it interesting that not one of the Discovery Institute Fellows is a non-Christian and most of their "scientific debate" forums are held in the theological or seminary departments of the universities they visit.--TimS 14:09, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

I cannot tell you how much the piss me off. ID is a stealth weapon. And I also agree that if you can get someone to believe one crazy but plausible-sounding thing (ID), you can get them to believe another (send me 100 bucks).--PalMD-yada yada 14:19, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
There two major proponents ("researchers") of ID: one talks about the "irreducible complexity" and other talks about "specificied complexity" via a mathematical model. Both have problems in that counterexamples have been produced or components of evolution cannot be explained by their theories. There also really aren't any experiments you can do. (Here little froggie--show me your designer...). Basically the argument is it looks like a duck so it must be a duck--an argument that failed spectacularly for the flat earth theory. There's a good article in The Best American Science Writing 2006 that goes into it. I'm going to be away for a time, but perhaps I'll add when I return. Sterile 14:42, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Not everyone agrees that the flat theory has been disproved, check Blogs 4 Brownback (alright, they might be a parody, but so far they keep denying it.)

I've learned that you can make people believe anything if you start brainwashing them in their childhood, especially if their family and friends are doing it, sadly that's just the way it is... MiddleMan

Perhaps I may work on this article a bit. I debated with Dave Scott and Dembski on their uncommon descent blog a couple of months ago. They got quite pissed at me (and banned me) when I ask for them to explain how they could falsify a test for a designer based on their hypothesis. I also mentioned before that debacle that their ideas based on probability (Irreducible Complexity) was derived from an arbitrary assessment of something being mathematically plausible. Anyone with an understanding of how probability works mathematically could deduce that just because something is not probable does not make it impossible to occur (that pissed them off as well). I guess I piss off a lot of people... Just wait till I finish off my Molecular Mechanisms of change and post it on CP, would be hard to fight against TOE when it is proven to happen in front of us.--TimS 14:52, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Here's the article I was talking about in its original context, The New Yorker, in layman's terms: [1] . If anyone wants to work on this feel free! Sterile 15:04, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Where can I put this?

I just Stumbled Upon this (isn't StumbleUpon great timewaster?) but I'm not sure how to work it into the article, or if there's a better article it could go in. Totnesmartin 04:55, 8 November 2007 (EST)

I'm not sure. I think it really says more about the scientist involved than ID. The only thing it really says about ID/creationism is that they use out-of-date sources.--Bobbing up 05:20, 8 November 2007 (EST)

NYU Professor on Intelligent Design in Schools

I'm privy to a paper by an NYU (non law-)professor, co-teaching a colloquium on law & philosophy, about how intelligent design ought to be taught in schools. Since it's just being written I can't copy text here, but I'd like to present the arguments for consideration. They're not things that you haven't heard before, so I don't think there's a harm there. The basic argument is that rejecting non-materialist explanations in public school science class is an over-reach of the Establishment Clause, since the issue at least ought to be broached, and that ID isn't dead science, it's something that's being actively debated and hasn't been conclusively decided against. The author characterizes the counter-arguments to Behe, that evolution is more than capable of handling flagella et al, as not a complete refutation but a partial accomodation. My objections are, to the latter, then teach it in a religion class, not a science class, and, to the former, it is dead science, being unfalsifiable. Discussion?

I'll post the whole thing once I'm allowed to. Until then, assume the text is:

REDACTED BY TEH FBI

-αmεσ (pirate) 18:21, 10 November 2007 (EST)

Of course the problem is that any "nor materialist" explanation is, by definition, not science. It might be appropriate in a class about the philosophy of science - "What is Science" for example.--Bobbing up 04:40, 11 November 2007 (EST)
You say that these arguments will be things we've not heard before. Are you sure that they are not covered in Methodological naturalism?--Bobbing up 16:00, 11 November 2007 (EST)
That's initially what I read too, but: They're not things that you haven't heard before. Those deceitful double negatives strike again. A couple of questions I have are
  1. Is the author a philosophy professor or a science professor? (out of curiosity)
  2. Is there any element to the "non-materialist explanations in public school science class is an over-reach of the Establishment Clause" argument that isn't a rehash of the "science is just as religious as any other religion" argument?--Bayesupdate 16:32, 11 November 2007 (EST)

What i think

Anyone who belives in any form of intelligent design is stupid, even if they went to college and got a masters degree. A Liberal

Very intelligent argument. I never cease to be amazed by RW members' superior sense of logic and form. That's really why I hang around here, to learn to be a better, smarter, more liberal (yes, I realize I'm being redundant here) person. Lurker 15:31, 11 November 2007 (EST)
I'm glad you find your time here worthwhile.--Bobbing up 16:02, 11 November 2007 (EST)
And it rather looks like "A Liberal" is a rather heavy-handed parodist.--Bobbing up 16:05, 11 November 2007 (EST)
Oh I figured as much. I have to give you guys some credit. Lurker 16:10, 11 November 2007 (EST)
We do seem to get 'em. Aylesburymartin 16:09, 11 November 2007 (EST)
You certainly seem to have picked up our sarcasm, you will need to help keep the taint of editing CP to a dull roar. tmtoulouse annoy 16:14, 11 November 2007 (EST)

We should fix this up

To frontpage it. I realize we're in the middle of sitewide drama, but this is important too :-)-αmεσ (pirate) 15:14, 26 March 2008 (EDT)


Ken's All-New ID page

I keep looking at that new version of the ID page Ken and his sock Freedom777 put up over at CP, and I just plain boggle at the very first line, "The central claim of Intelligent Design theory is that design -true design - is empirically detectable."

Doesn't that sound like something that would be easy to test for? If it can be empirically detectable, then all they have to do is give us a firm definition of what design would entail, and see if humanly designed stuff fits the definition, and then test it against stuff that humans didn't design. Easy! Funny, they don't seem to be doing that... --Kels 09:18, 31 March 2008 (EDT)


Update?

Don't know if we need to update this in the light of recent developments.--Bobbing up 17:46, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

The bias is palpable

// ... Is there any professional outside of a narrow group of IDers who takes it seriously? --Kels 18:40, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

Nope. ... Gulik 18:55, 30 May 2007 (CDT) //

How do you know that? I'd like to see the data.

// Personally, ID pisses me off. ... --TimS 14:09, 1 June 2007 (CDT) //

You say that several times, along with PalMD, but why get so het up about it? Is that a scientific attitude?

// many people in the US do not understand logic and therefore do not understand science. // --TimS

Is there some place on this earth where that isn't true? Why pick on the US? Specifically, are UK citizens more logical and scientific than Americans, on average?

// ... I always found it interesting that not one of the Discovery Institute Fellows is a non-Christian //

Why is that interesting? I know nothing of the DIF, but maybe it is a Christian group -- or one that an Atheist wouldn't join, or both.

Now i understand how Atheists feel about Christians, that they are illogical, unscientific, and wrong -- but that's just a bias, right -- even tho it may be one that you share? Perhaps you feel Christians can't be good scientists? Any study of first-rank scientists and mathematicians would disabuse you of that notion.

There's an awful lot of "the people that believe ID are (negative terms)" -- surely that doesn't constitute a good argument against ID, does it? (There must be a logical fallacy that covers that.) I've only read about a quarter of this page, but have seen a dearth of scientific or logical discussion of ID.

I attended a 90" ID lecture about two years ago and found it very interesting. The lecturer never claimed ID was science, never mentioned God, and never denigrated evolution or Darwin, or their believers.

Since then, i have tried several times to have a discussion on the merits of ID, but everybody rejects it out of hand, even tho they know nothing about it. That strikes me as prejudice based on ignorance, not at all logical or scientific. Don't you agree.

I look forward to a spirited discussion, given that many here feel strongly about the subject.

[[User:Rembrandt.ryan|Rem]]Beau 21:48, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

What have i done wrong with my name? It worked until i added blue.

see Wedge Document SusanG  ContribsTalk 21:53, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Okay, i read until it got boring, but i gather DIF is Christian, which i guessed. That surely explains why non-Christians wouldn't join them. Any comments on my remarks above? RemBeau 23:55, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Yes, it's bias to some degree, but grounded in truth and rationality. What evidence to id advocates have other than faith and a bible? --*Gen. S.T. Shrink* Get to the bunker 23:58, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

I can't see how they could have any evidence -- what would constitute evidence of a Creator? RemBeau 00:05, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Then....what is the defense for doing...anything with it other than throw it in the trash? --*Gen. S.T. Shrink* Get to the bunker 00:06, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Why not throw Sociology in the trash? It has all the trappings of science (charts, graphs, stats, etc), but except for the obvious stuff, it is pure opinion; certainly not science. RemBeau 00:13, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

As i understand it, at least ID has some actual science in it, altho it is not itself science. RemBeau 00:17, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

And philosophy -- not science, but interesting, and it's great to understand where ideas came fro and how it has shaped our current thinking. RemBeau 00:24, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

You mention sociology, a particular passion of mine. Well, that makes sense, but when did sociology get a counterpart that has better evidence, the ability to be studied and some proof. Id makes no sense because it isn't based on observance like all the other good sciences are. In real science, you begin by thinking what may happen. Then you find out what actually happpens. In Id, you assume that this is what actually happens, then observe, and if it doesn't fit into your little plan, it is wrong. Also, philosophy doesn't dictate how we work and where we came from. And it never said it was a science. --*Gen. S.T. Shrink* Get to the bunker 00:28, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Actually, isn't sociology called Social Science at some colleges? I know i have seen references that way. You haven't?

When you say ID isn't based on observations, have you never, when delving into math and physics, marvelled at what appears to be a design? I'm not alone in that; many important scientists have shared that insight.

I imagine an ID course would have to consider a lot of "thought" experiments, as Einstein calls them. Good workout for the brain i would think.

I have read that it is mathematically impossible for intelligent life forms to have developed given the short time the earth has had, which is why the panspermia theory was invented. Seems an obvious dodge to me, what say you?

RemBeau 00:47, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Is it rational to get "pissed off" at ID, or the people that believe it? RemBeau 00:50, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I can understand your passion for sociology; i was fascinated by psychology, but a lot of that was pure conjecture. In sociology, it seemed to me that a lot of the thinking was flawed, unless you shared a similar bias. And why would it be that there are so few non-Liberals (politically) that teach the subject?

Speaking of usefulness, could anything be less useful than deconstructionism? RemBeau 01:04, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

To answer your first question, I was refering to Philosophy never labeling itself as science. Sociology is. Just because something is designed doesn't mean it was created by one imnipotent creator at the same time as everything else. How can it be said that it is mathematically impossible when the vast majority of known information has occured in the last I don't know, 500 years? We don't know how long it took for bacteria to evolve into turtles or even exactly how long it took for homo erectus to evolve into homo sapiens. I'm not a fan of Panspermia myself. I think that humans have a lot left to know. But at least we have more proof of evolution than intelligent design. And no, it isn't rational to get pissed. I don't get pissed. I only get pissed when you start telling young kids that god made us and we breath because god says so. ID is a threat to everything that is freedom. If however, there were evidence, my views would naturally change. Which is more than I can say for most ID proponents, who form their beliefs not by observation, but by faith. Also, I feel like you just pulled the ratio of liberal sociology teachers out of nowhere. And deconstructionism...I'm sorry, but I don't understand how that affects anything, unless you are refering to a different definition than I --*Gen. S.T. Shrink* Get to the bunker 01:10, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

As i understand it, at least ID has some actual science in it, altho it is not itself science. RemBeau 00:17, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
Where did you get such an absurd idea? IDcreationism has never made affirmative predictions has has offered nothing but silly teleologic arguments. They have conducted no actual "research". At this point it is not a science, but a religion.-- Asclepius staff.png-PalMD --If it looks like a donut... 01:19, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
ID is not a single concept. Like most of these ideas it means different thing to different people. The only thing they have in common is the assumption that if something looks designed then it actually was designed. After that they go off in many different directions. For young earth creationists it's just another proof that the earth was created in 7 days. They don't really have any interest in the biological stuff. For people like Behe it's a way to make evolution and creation consistent over million year time-scales. Between these views you have a myriad other people for whom it means something in between. The only reason they aren't fighting each other is that they want to maintain some sort of united front.--Bobbing up 04:38, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

The bias our confusingly-named friend (Rembrandt? Rembeau? Rembeaurandt? Rembrandteau?) is referring to is the well-known Liberal Bias of Reality.

Also, is this actually a textual version of a Gish Gallop?Wazza (Not Wazzock, Wazza)Approach the Presence 05:21, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Palpability, part 2

Response to Wazza --

Originally it was Rembrandt.Ryan, but when i found i could use a nickname i chose Rem, then for a link to my Talk page i added Beau (a takeoff of RamBo) -- isn't that proof of evolution? I did consider Rem's Rants, but i figured i'll let guys like you characterize my comments.

// Also, is this actually a textual version of a Gish Gallop?

What, my critique or the comments i was critical of?

Response to Shrink --

// I was refering to Philosophy never labeling itself as science.

That was initially my point, that a course not based on science can be useful.

// Just because something is designed doesn't mean it was created by one imnipotent creator at the same time as everything else.

That's kind of obvious, but have any prominent ID types made such an argument? I hope i haven't.

// How can it be said that it is mathematically impossible when the vast majority of known information has occured in the last I don't know, 500 years?

I don't follow your argument. I know only that scientists claim it to be true, which is the kind of thing that has them scrambling for a rational, non-supernatural explanation.

// ... it isn't rational to get pissed. I don't get pissed. I only get pissed ...

Wow. Et tu, Shrinkay?

// ID is a threat to everything that is freedom.

Now THAT's totally ridiculous. What happened to rationality?

But i am pleased that you care about freedom; few there are that really do. Do you not find much of political Liberalism antithetical to freedom?

// ... form their beliefs not by observation, but by faith.

That describes most folks on every issue that is labeled SCIENCE. Do you think, by any stretch of the imagination, that as many as 5% of those that swear by evolution (and AGW) actually KNOW anything about the subject?

Don't you suspect that much of the criticism of ID on this page is leveled by people that are willfully ignorant of the subject? They know who pisses them off, and can't wait to poison the well, and are certain those people can't be correct, but is their contempt of ID theory based on actual study or knowledge? I know the answer and you do too.

Now i KNOW my knowledgeable friend Shrink wouldn't fall into that pit.

// Also, I feel like you just pulled the ratio of liberal sociology teachers out of nowhere.

Yo -- hold on -- do you DOUBT that it is true? I have seen statistics that have merely confirmed what i have observed, and that includes talking to a lot of folks; including a self-described Liberal relative that is a physics professor.

The most interesting stat i've come across regarding this, is that librarians have an even larger ratio, MUCH larger, than other occupations including college professors. Why this is so, i have no idea. Most of my professors were Marxists, and knew it.

By the way, my verrry Liberal sosh prof was glad to have me in his class. We became pretty friendly. He claimed to have Libt yearnings, altho he never changed his politics an iota. (They go too far down that road, they never come back.)

// And deconstructionism...I'm sorry, ...

If it transpires that you teach both sociology AND deconstructionism (acronym SAD), i withdaws me whole critique.

RemBeau 13:55, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

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