Talk:List of Gamergate claims
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::I concur, even cover some of those in my still in progress Part 5. Also, Part 5 actually comes off with RW looking pretty good so far, some of the debunking is actually of decent if not outstanding quality as opposed to some of the earlier parts. [[User:Arcane|Arcane]] ([[User talk:Arcane|talk]]) 04:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC) | ::I concur, even cover some of those in my still in progress Part 5. Also, Part 5 actually comes off with RW looking pretty good so far, some of the debunking is actually of decent if not outstanding quality as opposed to some of the earlier parts. [[User:Arcane|Arcane]] ([[User talk:Arcane|talk]]) 04:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC) | ||
::https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-5-5dcd3a971ef#.qkdzavqp2 - Part 6 should be last part, this is a very long article, will finish it tomorrow, as I had to do a ton of research so far. [[User:Arcane|Arcane]] ([[User talk:Arcane|talk]]) 06:47, 15 December 2015 (UTC) | ::https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-5-5dcd3a971ef#.qkdzavqp2 - Part 6 should be last part, this is a very long article, will finish it tomorrow, as I had to do a ton of research so far. [[User:Arcane|Arcane]] ([[User talk:Arcane|talk]]) 06:47, 15 December 2015 (UTC) | ||
| + | :::You know, I can't leave well enough alone, and I've done my absolute best to stay away for a whole week, but Arcane, I must say, you've done a really terrible job of trying to do anything resembling a proper counter-claim to the statements made on this list. So I'm going to address them because your Gamergate evangelism is frankly offensive. And I apologize in advance if this looks like a gish gallop, but Arcane, you're the one posting these things in spurts on Medium.com and I shouldn't have to use another website to post rebuttals your claims. | ||
| + | :::*To start with, here's one thing that really busts most of your complaints out of the water: the existence of a bias in reporting does not automatically imply that the reporting itself is factually wrong. So many of your complaints in your 5 (and counting) blog entries on this are simply "this person is biased" and that doesn't say anything to prove any point you may have. You and everyone else in Gamergate really need to realize that 100% neutral reporting is actually bad. People shouldn't present both sides of an issue as having equal footing when one side is inherently and objectively wrong. This is what makes Gamergate comparable to every other reactionary group out there. You demand 50/50 treatment to your claims without criticism just like the anti-vaxxers, the anti-science organic-only gluten-free crunchy hippies, global warming deniers, etc. You all claim some big entity is out to get you because there's nothing factually and objectively true about anything you peddle. Margaret Pless, David Futrelle, or Sam Biddle reporting on Gamergate activity directly, without ever distorting the facts, is objective reporting. Just because it's not neutral doesn't mean it's not objective and doesn't mean it's not correct. | ||
| + | :::*And another one of your constant complaints is that RationalWiki does not ''directly'' cite various websites where people have had their dox posted. That is because we are trying to prevent furthering any actual harm to come to these people by not posting links to The Ralph Retort or Lolcow.Wiki as you seem so wanton to refer to. So with those out of the way, let's see what minor quibbles you've managed to find by going through half of this page (as of my writing this). | ||
| + | :::*"[Eron Gjoni] never posted this to 4chan" is dubious at best. It made its way there ''somehow'' and it certainly wasn't because he was advertising his post on ''SA'' or ''PA'' because those were both taken down. And as Margaret Pless points out, an early draft/post/whatever on his blog actively welcomed people from /pol/ and /r9k/. | ||
| + | :::*We are not claiming that the risque photoshoot that Zoe posed for was exposed in a hack because we've already had to deal with someone on RW saying that the photos were discovered in such a way was inaccurate. The fact still stands that these photos would not have been discovered had Eron not been actively participating in #burgersandfries and giving out her old screennames and password hints. | ||
| + | :::*You've demanding a citation for the threats Quinn and Lifschitz received as a result of Gamergate's early formation? Or that Gamergate began distributing their old home address? Or are you demanding a citation that Quinn fled her home? Either way, [http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/11/female-technology-journalists-abuse-zoe-quinn this article on ''The Guardian''] mentions that she fled her home. That's all that needs to be said here. | ||
| + | :::*Even if Zoe's relationship with Nathan Grayson was anything resembling an ethical violation, the blame should not rest ''at all'' on Zoe's shoulders. It would be Grayson's fault for not disclosing this. But again, there was never any ethical violation here. | ||
| + | :::*With regards to your Phil Fish rebuttals, you're bringing up the content of Allistar Pinsof's interview with Techraptor, in which he alleged that Fish had illegally used a friend's game assets. If you were to read deeper into the list we've provided here, namely the section [[List of Gamergate claims#GameJournoPros]], you would see that people have actively debunked pretty much everything Pinsof said in his interview. Even the person he namedropped as having had content stolen from him came forward and said that Pinsof was lying. So before you continue to try to debunk these things, keep this in mind: Pinsoff is a liar and has gone back on everything he said to TechRaptor. | ||
| + | :::*Elizabeth Sampat's blog entry definitely describes people destroying gaming projects they had worked on and just quitting the industry so I don't know why you've not bothered to properly address that in your counter-rebuttal. | ||
| + | :::*You're framing your dislike of Anita Sarkeesian in this very thoroughly. She's not saying "Gamers are bad". She's saying "These video games use storytelling elements that perpetuate sexist feelings towards real women". | ||
| + | :::*Just because the shooting threat was not credible to authorities or the school does not mean it did not have an impact. That is why it is a threat. It is meant to scare. | ||
| + | :::*Anita Sarkeesian is still not a video game journalist. | ||
| + | :::*Brianna Wu has indeed cut her teeth in the field of video game reviewing and such, but she is still by trade a game developer who has released one title so far, and AFAIK she is working on a PC port of it. I also see you like to use the term "transsexual" which no one really uses anymore. Just a red flag. I'll get back to this later. | ||
| + | :::*Oh Lorde. lolcow.wiki? Really? And basing it off of the stalking Fart and Ralph did on her because of timestamps and shadows and such? No we're not touching this with a 39 and a half foot pole. | ||
| + | :::*As I said above, we're not citing the actual doxing. | ||
| + | :::*The point of the Jenn Frank section is to show that ''The Guardian'' decided not to include the disclosure she had originally put in her article because they felt it was trivial. Mind you, the only reason it was ever reinstated was because she had demanded that they do while Gamergaters were hounding her for having not made the disclosure. | ||
| + | :::*Since I last checked, there was no statement from Mattie Brice herself that concerned her quitting the industry in the form of her own blog or whatever. Futrelle posting the tweets is fine as a source. But again you fall back on your complaints of "bias" which just shows how very little you actually know about journalism and what constitutes a proper and dangerous bias. | ||
| + | :::*And now that you're up to Dan Olson, I can mention another overarching fact that destroys your various counter rebuttals concerning him, because I'm sure he is going to come up over and over. Yes, he went into 8chan's pedo boards to find material for his expose. Yes, seeking out child pornography is illegal under Canadian law. However, the important fact here is that '''all the charges against him were dropped as unfounded''' as he reveals [https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/status/552900816634261505 here]. It is perhaps a mistake to omit this fact in the article, but that can be fixed. | ||
| + | :::*Jennifer Allaway was not out looking for sexism as you're claiming. Her survey was "have you experienced anything that you consider sexism". This entry feels victim blame-y to me, particularly how you're dropping in "trigger" for "top kek" as people might say. If [http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010 you actually read what she said, it doesn't look like her response matches your description]. | ||
| + | :::*Just because DIGRA works with feminists doesn't mean anything. | ||
| + | :::*Pointing out Gawker is morally wrong with what they did to that CEO(?) and Hulk Hogan doesn't help your case. Everyone recognizes that was shit. This is actually touched upon in [[List of Gamergate claims#Gawker]]. Also, all of the advertising on Kotaku and Gamasutra was restored once they realized what they had done with regards to Gamergate. Alexander's editorial to game ''developers'' that the "bro gamer" demographic that overlaps with Gamergate isn't one that needs pandering anymore shouldn't have been a reason that her website's source of income was to be attacked. | ||
| + | :::*You drop in "bias" again with regards to Natalie Zed so this argument isn't worth anything. Just because someone holds a negative opinion of Gamergate does not mean that they cannot write about it. She makes no money out of her doctoral dissertation being about Gamergate while disliking Gamergate so your analogy here is irrelevant. There's no conflict of interest. Gamergate is just giving her a free background check. | ||
| + | :::*You've mentioned the Patricia Hernandez stuff once (or someone else did prior) before. The Max Temkin editorial was dealt with long before Gamergate happened. And here we go again with your (and I assume Gamergate's) complete and utter lack of understanding as to what constitutes a conflict of interest. Hernandez wasn't paid anything by Anna Anthropy, Christine Love, or Zoe Quinn to say ''anything'' about their video games. She does not benefit from her friends by saying good things about their games. The threshhold of "positive coverage" or "good press" held by Gamergaters is utterly and incredibly wrong. | ||
| + | :::*Like Dan Olson, Sarah Nyberg has not been arrested for anything she said in the chatlogs 10 years ago because she didn't actually do what is said in them. She has gone on record as saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "I was a 4channer idiot who used black humor to try to out-shock my friends and I recognize what I said back then is completely indefensible but I've grown from that behavior". Roph's apparent counterrebuttal has no teeth because he's a Gamergater out to destroy her reputation and just happens to have a bit more ability to do so because he can claim otherwise as being a ''former'' (and that's an important factor here) friend of hers. | ||
| + | :::*Peter Coffin's wife is real and so is his kid. Gamergate's insistence that neither person exists despite having doxxed her to find what hospital she was staying at while undergoing jaw surgery is incredibly disingenuous. The fact you don't bother to include that in your counterrebuttal is equally as disingenuous. Also, Coffin was one of the people who reported 8chan to cloudflare and his dox was included in Brennan's Twitter, which is again something we're not linking to. | ||
| + | :::*And while we're at it, you mention Jace Connors here. Just because Rankowski came out and said Jace Connors was a persona he made up does not change the fact that he terrified Brianna Wu with the threats the "persona" made. | ||
| + | :::*Now in part 2, you're still completely disingenuous here when you insist that you personally are not a misogynist so therefore all of Gamergate is absolved of the incredibly misogynistic behavior it has done towards any one woman online (when in fact you seem to be guilty of stalking Brianna Wu). Again the point here is that Gamergate is actively hostile towards women because it descended from the 4chan "tits or gtfo" mindset. Women who are obviously good at making video games should be allowed to make video games however they please. Here we get to another blanket thing I can lay out: you seriously think that we should vet and prove 4chan posts are legitimate? And also the point of using your quote is that your statement is mostly representative of how Gamergate as a whole tries to defend itself from accusations of misogyny. Your post on RationalWiki was just a convenient example. | ||
| + | :::*"Bias" again. Boring. And the fact is that Gamergaters do go to Five Guys restaurants to meet up and laugh at the fact they're there solely because Eron used it in his blog. It's part of a long list of evidence that Gamergate (as a whole) is all about Zoe and supportive of Eron. Beyond the money Gamergaters on KIA have given him. | ||
| + | :::*You're complaining about the wording of a picture caption here. And [[:File:Gatorgate.jpg|picture itself]] is the exact opposite of your counterclaim that people can do anything in a hashtag when it is to show people in Gamergate who harass others don't use the hashtag at the same time. | ||
| + | :::*Yeah, Eron Gjoni was an evil asshole from the start. He's said that he tried to go on another date with her just to gather more material for TheZoePost and on that date he apparently physically assaulted her. That's covered [http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2015/04/28/gamergate/ here]. | ||
| + | :::*Bias again. | ||
| + | :::*Also your "monolithic" quip is only really proving what we've said about how Gamergaters see accusations that Gamergate is responsible for harassment. | ||
| + | :::*Your next complaint is that we don't cite the studies right before we actually do so let's go onto your counter claims about the studies. | ||
| + | :::*Complaining that the data isn't conclusive because the study in question is old doesn't really do much for your case and we actually do explain why the inconclusive nature of the "neutral" results in detail so another failure for you there. | ||
| + | :::*Yes, WAM!'s sample size was small we get it. They did the best they could with the minimal data. The small sample size is still damning for Gamergate regardless. Also I see you don't bother to try to debunk Gamergate's bad statistical rebuttal with the 0.66% thing so good on you for that. | ||
| + | :::*The point about the rebuttal of "false flag" claims against Quinn and Fish is that they're garbage and we shouldn't really need to try to explain why. You're demanding evidence of absence here. Also the explanation of the tumblr post by email feature (which references Zennistrad's tumblr post so stop throwing out the source based on that feature alone) is the best we can do to give a counter claim that goes "it's really stupid to insist that they faked the hack because her tumblr was still secure when the hacks included her email address book". | ||
| + | :::*We're not citing Roosh V's shitty blog that attacks Sarkeesian because AFAIK it contains dox material. Also, the claims that follow in this section are rebuttals of the various claims made by Gamergaters to insist that Anita Sarkeesian somehow faked all the attack tweets. Most of these statements were made by Zennistrad who did his own investigation into how the Twitter search feature worked to give these results. And his rebuttal of one person's really weird assumptions of her sexual fantasies. The fact it's sourced to his tumblr isn't reason to throw it out. | ||
| + | :::*The section on game developers is pretty much there to show that all the people who came out in support of Gamergate and call themselves game developers are assholes or have axes to grind and Gamergate was the perfect army to dictate. With several of these people, there's not going to be news exposes on them because they are nobodies in the industry (like Villena and Desborough who isn't a video game dev to begin with). Your complaints that Tumblr and Storify are cited are baseless. As is the complaint that we got Huniepop's game mechanics wrong. Also you continue to drop "bias this" and "bias that". Chmielarz's opinions are garbage. I don't know why Nichegamer isn't linked. Perhaps when I wrote that up months ago I didn't bother because anyone can [https://www.google.com/search?q=Christian+Allen+nichegamer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 find the article in question fairly easily]. But the interview itself isn't being cited. It's just being mentioned so I don't personally think a citation is needed there. Yes, we're linking to Quinn's Twitter post of Brad Wardell asking someone who drew the comic to work for him because the comic itself is gone AFAIK. [https://twitter.com/draginol/status/528758133880279040 This tweet still exists] though. The point about mentioning both Michael Lawson and Jason Truman's political leanings is that it's telling of Gamergate as a whole, and also it's bullshit for them to talk about an industry they personally haven't been involved in in several years. And, as I said at the beginning of this, the fact is that all these people have had critically panned games or they're assholes or they're reactionaries. Which is why they're supporting Gamergate. | ||
| + | :::*And your complaints that "not all anti-GG are angels" are really pointless. | ||
| + | :::*To finish out part 2 (apparently) '''''changes to SkullGirls and Street Fighter V are not censorship'''''. There was no outside pressure on either Lab Zero or Capcom to make these changes. They decided on these things internally. That's not censorship. Even if the developers decided to do this based on reviews of the games that mentioned these things, it's still not censorship. It's their own creative decision. | ||
| + | :::*Now onto part 3, you start off with multiple demands for citations in the middle of a quotation that makes up the "claim" part of an entry. Not exactly a good counter claim. | ||
| + | :::*[http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp So it's "minimize harm" and not "do no harm"], [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22do+no+harm%22+journalism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 a simple mistake]. It's still ethical for Kotaku et al. to not have reported on The Zoe Post because it's an unfair invasion of the privacy of two people, one of whom decided to go public in order to attack the other. | ||
| + | :::*"Bias" again. | ||
| + | :::*We're extrapolating here to point out the fact that the New York Times and the BBC are not part of an SJW conspiracy against Gamergate. And Gjoni is 100% wrong and Quinn is 100% right. He's still trying to go after her a year and a half later. She's trying to get away from him. Now who's the abuser here? | ||
| + | :::*The PoliticalCompass tests are biased in favor of giving a particular result. Your complaints that we link to /r/BadSocialScience are baseless, considering you've linked to lolcow.wiki earlier. Further points on this are Gamergate's perception of what constitutes "authoritarianism" is hypocritical of their own behavior to impose their personal politics on others by trying to silence anyone lse that has a differing opinion. The fact they think "SJWs" are doing this to them is indeed projection. And your complaints that people who have tried to investigate Gamergate did not find anything counter to the claims as not being "the whole picture" are disingenuous at best. The fact is that Gamergate ''overall'' has rightwing and particularly reactionary tendencies. You (and Aneris and Husky Harlot) can claim anything about your own personal political stances, but that doesn't respresent the general behavior of Gamergate as a whole. Gamergate (and their ilk) is why "cuckservative" has come into play after all. | ||
| + | :::*Anti-feminism is a ridiculous stance to take because it never takes the form of any actual criticisms of feminism but rather makes strawmen attacks on it as a whole. This is why we have Aneris constantly parroting "regressive left". Also, there's no need to cite that CHS is a paid speaker for AEI on this page when it's covered on others; same for Cathy Young and Reason. "Bias" again. | ||
| + | :::*I like how you go on and on about how Joshua Goldberg played both sides which is exactly what the rebuttal goes into detail of how that's factually wrong. He made up the "Tanya Cohen" persona to attack feminism and anti-hate speech ideologies. It was intentionally divisive to be yet another thing to bolster his own personal politics (anti-feminism, free speech absolutism). And Brianna Wu wasn't fooled by him. So many of the entries you want sources for '''are covered elsewhere'''. There is no requirement that every sentence have a citation when paragraphs as a whole are cited. Also, just because he was found incompetent doesn't mean he's not guilty. [https://popehat.com/2015/09/15/lawsplainer-whats-going-on-with-that-troll-joshua-goldberg-anyway/ Popehat Ken pointed out that it just means he's going to undergo psychiatric care until he's fit to stand trial]. | ||
| + | :::*"Anti-Gamergate" is a bogeyman made up by Gamergate to enforce their persecution complex (like a cult would) and apply the [[balance fallacy]] in their favor. As much as you claim that this page makes Gamergate as a monolithic entity when it isn't, you and everyone else in Gamergate makes this exact same fallacious claim about their ideological opponents. /r/GamerGhazi existing is not evidence of anything either. There is no organization within opposition to Gamergate to the same extent that there is organization within Gamergate, which are again all things laid out in the sections you haven't covered yet, namely [[List of Gamergate claims#Anti-Gamergate is a unified counter-movement]]. | ||
| + | :::*There's no point in Gamergaters repeating Zoe Quinn's legal name in court documents when they know she's Zoe Quinn. They can just use "Zoe Quinn". They found her real name without the court's help though. It's therefore completely bullshit behavior and just going "haha I know your real name" to repeat it ad infinitum. | ||
| + | :::*Part 4 now. Good thing you're agreeing with us that Gamergate's [[indulgence]] behavior with charities is bullshit. | ||
| + | :::*We're not linking to Breitbart because they're factually wrong on so many things (and disingenuous about it at that) and also so many of their articles include dox on people. | ||
| + | :::*TFYC itself is not a charity, but Gamergaters claim they are. That's the point there. To your complaints about screencaps etc., '''we are providing primary sources here'''. Half the time you complain that the primary sources aren't provided. Make up your mind. But now we're back to "bias" because it's a storify by Zoe Quinn. The sales figures on ''Afterlife Empire'' are elsewhere on RationalWiki, as [http://steamspy.com/app/367710 this] is cited elsewhere. No one bought the game. No one owns the game outside of the indiegogo backers. No one plays the game. | ||
| + | :::*Onto the Vivian James section, you're complaining that we open up with a joke quote from /r/GamerGhazi. This is a strawman on your part. | ||
| + | :::*It's not our fault the Gamergate Wiki got taken down. Next. More complaints about using primary sources. Next. "Biased". Next. Gamergaters have spent years harassing Sarkeesian and Quinn, long before they were ever called "Gamergaters" (the hatred towards Sarkeesian and Quinn didn't pop out of nowhere). Next. "Biased" again. Next. "Rule 34". Next. | ||
| + | :::*Now you're up to #NotYourShield, which is just mostly defense of /pol/, the place where people pretend to be neo-Nazis and where real neo-Nazis pretend to be not actually neo-Nazis to recruit the people claiming they are. This isn't trolling. Nor is participation in #BaltimoreLootCrew. It's lying about your own personal beliefs in order to feel better about others getting offended at what you say. "It's just a joke" is a poor excuse for being racist. | ||
| + | :::*Your demand for a claim that the media assumed Gamergate skewed straight white male is specious. | ||
| + | :::*The point is that #NotYourShield is an attempt at nullifying other people's personal opinions. We don't have to cite our own interpretation but [http://bogleech.tumblr.com/post/124912730253/if-anyones-even-a-little-confused-as-to-whats it is somewhat based on what Bogleech has said about it all]. I simply forgot to add this, but because it's Tumblr and he's "biased" you'll dismiss it like everything else that matches those definitions. | ||
| + | :::*Christina Hoff Sommers isn't a feminist. She's a female men's rights activist who says she's a feminist when all of her academic literature has been widely recognized as highly anti-feminist. She's the feminism equivalent of your racist grandma except she gets paid for it. | ||
| + | :::*I couldn't figure out how to properly cite [http://fusion.net/story/220646/the-terrifying-allure-of-gamergate-icon-milo-yiannopoulos/ a comment on this article] because the software doesn't allow it for some reason. Also it's a dick move to actually link to that comment in the article itself because it features that person's name. | ||
| + | :::*Gamergate has nothing to do with the events at ''GAME_JAM'' and I only really included this entry as a dig against Wikipedia user Wnt who kept insisting this was something both Wikipedia and RationalWiki omitted in their coverage of Gamergate. | ||
| + | :::*We're back at Dan Olson again. I will refer you to my earlier blanket statements that the charges against him were dropped so he was never in the wrong despite your claims, and those of Gamergaters who reported him to the RCMP. | ||
| + | :::*Now in Part 5 you open up with complaints that we imply Breitbart is a reactionary tabloid rag that has many documented ethical breaches that we couldn't possibly get into any detail on this page without it being a copy of [[Breitbart]]. | ||
| + | :::*Forcing people to disclose meager Kickstarter donations is not ethics. | ||
| + | :::*You're complaining reviewers should say they're doing social critique. However, reviewers review a product on their own terms. If a reviewer feels it's important to point out something the game does wrong that isn't related to game mechanics, and refuses to point it out in the review due to outside pressure, they aren't doing their job very well. Likewise, if you wish for a review to focus on mechanics only, you can find a reviewer that does so instead of forcing your politics onto other people. | ||
| + | :::*Leigh Alexander's "Gamers are over" article wasn't for Gamers as a review. ''Kotaku'' is free to say whatever they want about Quiet's design and the excuse for it. Just because you think they should just stick to game mechanics doesn't mean they want to. | ||
| + | :::*The setting of ''The Witcher'' is not historical. It is a fantasy world that borrows from Polish/Slavic folklore. And in the setting there is a group that could at best represent Africa or the Middle East and as covered in [[List of Gamergate claims#Objectivity]], we point out that the development team took the criticisms on ''Polygon'' to heart and released an expansion that included the non-white fantasy world humans that existed in the source material (look up Zerrikania). | ||
| + | :::*''Depression Quest'' is still free and Nathan Grayson wasn't dating Zoe Quinn when he namedropped it at any point in his career. Therefore there was no conflict of interest. | ||
| + | :::*I can see a lot of part 5 is going to cover why you think people should disclose these things when we and everyone else outside of Gamergate realizes the futility and lack of any benefit in it. | ||
| + | :::*At the time of writing, hipsterwelfare.com was a redirect to patreon.com. | ||
| + | :::*It's now several months since the "as of going to press" thing was written. Last I checked, Lynn Walsh, president elect of the SPJ, is sitting on that "we're totally not Gamergate" panel at SXSW. | ||
| + | :::*We're back to the Jenn Frank thing. Yes, the disclosure was restored, '''''because Frank asked the editors to put it back in because Gamergate was going for her head'''''. | ||
| + | :::*Kotaku and Polygon making their ethics policies public isn't something Gamergate can claim seeing as Gamergate as a whole has written off both websites entirely because they don't cover Gamergate the way Gamergate wants. | ||
| + | :::*Gamergate giving people free background checks is wrong. The statements made on this article that concern Gamergaters' behavior is different. | ||
| + | :::*Again, we're sorry someone took down the Gamergate Wiki. But this is still just a quote and not important overall. | ||
| + | :::*William Usher isn't a whistleblower because '''there was nothing to blow the whistle on'''. RationalWiki's mocking of Conservapedia is a fine point to make, but this is ad hominem at the moment from you. | ||
| + | :::*That thing about the Forbes link is something we should look into. | ||
| + | :::*Your complaints about independent verification are really hypocritical. Kotaku were the ones independently verifying Pinsof's interview statements. So now you want infinitely recursive verification? This just seems like more of the whole anti-Kotaku slant GG has, particularly because you say "bias" again. | ||
| + | :::*Chloe Sagal did nothing criminal. As far as we're aware, someone else made a fradulent donation to her project, which led to its shut down and her suicide attempt. Pinsof should have never outed Sagal. Period. Your insistence that he was right is more telling of your own personal politics than trying to ensure that he followed SPJ's "Minimize Harm" tenet. | ||
| + | :::*Stop complaining about Tumblrs used as sources. | ||
| + | :::*The point of the "Objectivity" section is that Gamergate does not represent "most gamers". Just because Gamergaters want reviews to be devoid of social commentary doesn't mean they're right. And once more, ''Street Fighter V'' has not been subject to censorship of any kind. Capcom made a decision on their own. They were not forced by any external entity to act. | ||
| + | :::*Now we get to the meat of your partcipation in Gamergate and that's because you're anti-censorship and a video game developer who doesn't want to listen to social critique. It would have been better if you said this to start with because it does color a lot of your counter claims. People are going to criticize your game socially whether you want them to or not. Your reaction to this criticism will be how you grow as a developer and an artist (even if you don't consider your game a work of art to be critiqued). | ||
| + | :::*You're complaining about Kotaku and bias again after this. | ||
| + | :::*Tecmo Koei decided '''in August 2015''' that they weren't planning on localizing DOAX3 for North America and Europe because of how poorly DOAX2 sold overall. Also it might have to do with the fact that Marie Rose is pedobait and they realized that that kind of content won't fly overseas. Mind you, that in your claim here, you completely ignore the fact that Tecmo called out their Facebook rep for saying something the company as a whole did not agree with. And a final thought here is that '''no one was ever talking about DOAX3''' to scare Tecmo into not selling their game outside of Asia. | ||
| + | :::*You called Leigh Alexander a fascist. Nice. She wrote an editorial. A lot of the rest of your argument in this paragraph is a strawman because it doesn't bother to address the claims made about objectivity in journalism being about "finding the objective truth" and not "play out a balance fallacy". | ||
| + | :::*We can internally link to other pages that have citations so we don't have to repeat them. Intel's covered in further detail on the main Gamergate page. | ||
| + | :::*You're strawmanning again because Wilde's criticisms of the term "PC Master Race" having Nazi connotations has nothing to do with your defense of PC vs. console. | ||
| + | :::*Stop complaining that we're colluding with "the enemy". It's bad form. Really. | ||
| + | :::*We're not citing an instance of dogpiling. | ||
| + | :::*The FTC content is true but the sourcing needs work. I personally didn't write the entry though. | ||
| + | :::*Kotaku hasn't made any ethical breaches sorry. | ||
| + | :::*And now we're in [[argumentum ad Hitlerum]] territory. | ||
| + | :::*''Gawker'' being unethical has no bearing on the ethics of ''Kotaku''. Simply because both are owned by the same company doesn't mean both share the blame of one's horrible behavior considering the editor teams are different. Gamergate weaponizing hatred of Gawker to their advantage is disingenuous. | ||
| + | :::*You complain of a dead link which is because no one bothered to update the internal link from "Three right-wings don't make a left" to "The red pill rabbit hole" on [[Gamergate]]. This obviously needs to be fixed and it's a simple one. Also this is a direct reference to Gamergate's outlandish conspiracy theories that Brianna Wu is a trans woman as if it would even matter to what she has done. A conspiracy theory I discovered you're personally very fond of, Geth_N7. | ||
| + | :::*Anti-Gamergate isn't a thing. But I see you're going to spend looking at the rest of the section [[List of Gamergate claims#Anti-Gamergate is mean]] in your upcoming Part 6 and possibly 7. | ||
| + | :::I think that covers all of your complaints. I'll surely enjoy reading the next parts to tell you how blatantly wrong you are about them, as well. So let it be known that the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.—Ryulong ([[User talk:Ryulong|talk]]) 09:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 09:32, 15 December 2015
To look at later
- http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?title=Corruption
- http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?title=Point-Counterpoint
- "Abby "Plebcomics" did dox herself"
- deez nuts
- BOFA
Cyber-harassment or "Cyber-violence"
On a related note to the UN appearances from Sarkeesian and Quinn, I feel it would also be prudent to tackle the downright silly claim that "Cyber-harassment/Cyber-violence isn't a thing, there's no real life consequences! Sarkeesian is saying stuff like calling her a liar and she sucks is harassment and wants to censor it! Why are they focusing on this when there's REAL violence going on in other parts of the world?!" I feel it should be pointed out that, in essence, the use of terms like "harassment" and "violence" are essentially elevated terms of "bullying", and on that note, considering the vast number of people who have been victims of cyberbullying (Amanda Todd and Tyler Clementi as the most prominent examples), it's downright silly to claim that there can never be real-life consequences, since it can force people into changes in their own personal life, such as having to employ security to take you to places (as is currently the case with Sarkeesian), fearing for your life when people dox you or turn up at your place of work threatening your life (the latter of which happened with Randi Harper) and of course can make you so miserable that you may feel compelled to suicide, as has happened to numerous cyberbullying victims.
On what Sarkeesian said, while I will grant that the phrasing is poor, when you consider that some of the examples of calling Anita a "liar" includes mass-brigading her with baseless, long-debunked accusations of her being a "scam-artist" and a "fraud" as well as claiming that she's doxed herself and that she's faked threats against her, then hell yes that's an example of harassment. Similarly, the ways that members of Gamergate have used to tell Anita that she "sucks" have included pretty much every female gender-specific insult under the sun, as well as threats of assault, rape, and murder, not to mention attempting to hack her Kickstarter and YouTube accounts, doxing her to the point where she had to flee her home, and threatening places where she is due to speak with massacres unless she doesn't appear. This is the kind of so-called "freeze peach" that Anita and Zoe want to root out, and frankly the sorts of people who engage in such vile harassment absolutely deserve to face dire consequences for their actions, and the fact that these people want to protect that kind of free speech says a hell of a lot more about them than it does about Anita or Zoe.
Finally, on the "Why is the UN focusing on this when it should be focusing on REAL violence", this is the fallacy of relative privation, or in another words another version of Dear Muslima. Humanity is capable of focusing on more than one problem at once, and since there are many real victims of cyber-harassment, that fact is compelling enough to treat it as a problem that should be resolved.
Please let me know what you guys think of this with any edits if necessary, and if I can go ahead and put this in the main article? Jon91919 (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- This is a really good answer to a question I posed regarding 'Nonsense Claims' in the Anita Sarkeesian page. Maybe put this there? — Unsigned, by: 136.159.49.117 / talk / contribs 18:14, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- There've been really bad people speaking before the UN, not some two-bit Youtuber and programmer of a boring game targeted by the GG clowncar, so it's not so bad.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 16:17, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Jon, seems like a fair point. Add in. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ
(talk/stalk) 17:11, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Jon, seems like a fair point. Add in. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ
An extreme minority claim
I keep seeing one person claim that this debacle was the genesis of Gamergate, but he's so far the only person to insist this to be an incontrovertible fact (even though someone has just told him that both Sarkeesian and Quinn were subject to violent threats before March 2014). At what point is it inappropriate to have an entry that just says "Rebuttal: You can't be any further from the truth."?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:14, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- "This is trivially false. The harassment of all involved started well before then. See x y z." - David Gerard (talk) 07:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- I've since added it to the page. Maybe you can show w:User:Wnt so he stops repeating the claim.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:14, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- If you think I'm touching Gamergate on WP you're on crack - David Gerard (talk) 00:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I've since added it to the page. Maybe you can show w:User:Wnt so he stops repeating the claim.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:14, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Heads up
There's a 'rebuttal to the rebuttal' regarding Christian Hoff Sommers in the section 'Gamergate has support from Feminists!' I think the rebuttal given is a little weak...maybe add that it's only the one prominent feminist they can think of, or go into more detail regarding why she's not necessarily promoting feminist ideals. It's true that someone's employment doesn't automatically discredit their viewpoints...especially when considering how people want to discredit Anita because she worked for a sketchy guy once in college. — Unsigned, by: 108.49.130.99 / talk / contribs 01:23, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- ...You clearly misread. Narky Sawtooth
(Nyarnyar~) 03:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Christina Hoff Sommers isn't a feminist. She's an anti-feminist who calls herself a feminist so her MRA fanboys have someone to point to that says they're not anti-feminist. She does nothing but write and complain about the current state of feminism and repeats MRA lies about rape and the wage gap. That's all we really have to say on it because she has her own page locally. Also, all of the other "rebuttals" on the page were garbage and contradictory, like the claim Gamergate isn't about someone's sex life when then insisting that it's about who someone had sex with, as well as the fact that the other BoN doesn't understand how Gamergate can't understand statistics properly which is just sad.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Watson v. Sutton
Paravant are you even reading what I've added? Or are you just blinded by your predisposed hatred towards me for the Brony shit? @FuzzyCatPotato: wrote that entry on the Sutton bullshit. I rewrote it so it works better. But you keep protecting the page and blocking me because somehow using references already on the page is apologism? My latest edits are pointing out that Rebecca Watson wasn't even originally responsible for the dox, but PZ Myers was and how fucking obvious it is that she's the one being attacked and not him. What is your problem?—Ryulong (talk) 03:13, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Someone else not getting attacked for doxxing is not a reason to excuse somebody elses doxxing. I don't give a shit who originally added it, it got removed for defending doxxing from one page and should any other page it shows up on. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:16, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Does anything in this defend doxing at all? No. It's saying Myers is the one responsible and the only reason Watson is targetted is because she's a woman which was absent from the page in the first place. Nothing in my edit is apologism. It's pointing out Gamergate's hypocrisy. If anything this is just blatant abuse of the tools to spite me because you wouldn't be blanket reverting everything I fucking did and inserting a version with shit grammar otherwise.—Ryulong (talk) 03:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- This has fuck all to do with spiting you.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:27, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- You're blindly reverting everything I do because you believe it says something which it doesn't anymore just like with the Brony shit. Nothing in that diff I pointed out comes even close to apologism for whatever Myers and Watson did. It just points out the misogynistic hypocrisy in going after Watson when Myers was responsible just like how no one fucking cares what Nathan Grayson does anymore but Zoe Quinn is constantly under fire (because he was simply a scapegoat to attack Quinn with). Stop disproportionately reacting to edits I make. You keep locking down these pages and not actually addressing anything I have to say about the content. So tell me what is wrong with this content:
The most obvious problem with Gamergate claiming this as harassment is that Sutton isn't, to our knowledge at least, a Gamergate supporter. The only remote connection to Gamergate is that Rebecca Watson is a feminist who was previously embroiled in an online controversy with the -gate suffix. On top of that, she was only linking to PZ Myers' blog entry where he had outed Sutton, so why aren't people viciously angry at him instead? Oh right. Rebecca Watson is an outspoken feminist.
It fixes a piped link I had previously introduced and connects this to Gamergate by showing that it's a completely out of proportion reaction to something a woman has been accused of doing when a man should be equally if not more to blame for the situation.—Ryulong (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)- Deflecting criticism of her by going "but she only linked so why aren't you instead attacking him!" does not excuse that she still linked to doxing material. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Gamergate is built on overreacting to something a woman did. How is the fact that Myers is the one who doxxed Sutton first and Watson only linked to Myers' post of it not relevant? It's attacking her because she's a feminist.—Ryulong (talk) 03:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- And I have AgingHippie breathing down my throat because I wrote an awkward sentence but your god awful typos don't get mentioned at all.—Ryulong (talk) 03:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- I blame this shitty pages formating for phone view.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:50, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Complaint retracted. Mobile editing is shit on RW because no one's cribbed WMF's mobile view.—Ryulong (talk) 03:50, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- I blame this shitty pages formating for phone view.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:50, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Deflecting criticism of her by going "but she only linked so why aren't you instead attacking him!" does not excuse that she still linked to doxing material. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- You're blindly reverting everything I do because you believe it says something which it doesn't anymore just like with the Brony shit. Nothing in that diff I pointed out comes even close to apologism for whatever Myers and Watson did. It just points out the misogynistic hypocrisy in going after Watson when Myers was responsible just like how no one fucking cares what Nathan Grayson does anymore but Zoe Quinn is constantly under fire (because he was simply a scapegoat to attack Quinn with). Stop disproportionately reacting to edits I make. You keep locking down these pages and not actually addressing anything I have to say about the content. So tell me what is wrong with this content:
- This has fuck all to do with spiting you.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:27, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Does anything in this defend doxing at all? No. It's saying Myers is the one responsible and the only reason Watson is targetted is because she's a woman which was absent from the page in the first place. Nothing in my edit is apologism. It's pointing out Gamergate's hypocrisy. If anything this is just blatant abuse of the tools to spite me because you wouldn't be blanket reverting everything I fucking did and inserting a version with shit grammar otherwise.—Ryulong (talk) 03:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Sarah Nyberg's "tasteless jokes"
NOTE: You realise last time the RMF Board literally had to block someone from RW for six months by an actual board vote, it was for repeated "just discussing" of pedophilia claims on a talk page. Please don't do that, particularly at the behest of a JAQing gator. It's probably a terrible idea - David Gerard (talk) 23:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Don't listen to him, it's just a gator!" is terrible. It reveals a "us-vs-them" sort of thinking, which is never constructive and only serves to cloud people's judgement...
- At any rate, the claims seems to be backed by a reasonable reference, which seems to be correct. Am I missing something? Because to me all of this seems like a horrible overreaction of the kind we only seem to have on anything Gamergate-related... (Not saying Mona couldn't have acted more ... restrained... by the way). Carpetsmoker (talk) 00:13, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- [EC] Why can we call TheAmazingAtheist and Warren Jeffs pedophiles? Should we revert all edits and ban the editors b/c it's a potentially libelous claim? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ
(talk/stalk) 00:18, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Warren Jeffs is actually a convicted pedophile though, so not libel there.Petey Plane (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- There's a difference in going "this is what is in the chat logs that Gamergaters are using against her" and the fact that Warren Jeffs is a convicted pedophile. Not sure about TJ.—Ryulong (talk) 00:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- If it's factual, it's not legally problematic. Do you dispute the accuracy of those logs? WalkerWalkerWalker 00:39, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- So I think the examples I brought up illustrate a good point. We apparently think it's OK to call someone a pedophile if we've evidence for it. So is our evidence for TAA less than Ms. Nyberg? FuzzyCatPotato!™
(talk/stalk) 00:55, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Well how about a different question; is it relevant to include someone's sexuality/kink at all unless the person is convicted of a sex crime and/or is an advocate for the repeal of laws against sex crimes (i.e. age of consent, rape, bestiality). If so then we may need to address our policy since we don't allow the activism of pedophilia but we do allow users who hold may have such an illnesses on our site.--Owlman (talk) 01:42, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I shouldn't have to dispute the accuracy of anything PacWalker. There's nothing relevant in those chat logs to this page. There is no point in giving context to the false accusations. What more do we have to say other than "Gamergaters accuse Sarah Nyberg of being a pedophile based on IRC logs that they obtained from hacking her website"?—Ryulong (talk) 01:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Let me ask again: are they accurate? If so, there is zero legal issue, your dispute is strictly editorial, and you should abide by the consensus attained here that you've conveniently revdel'd (and further undo said revdeling). If not, how does that jive with her admission that they are? WalkerWalkerWalker 02:02, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are you seriously arguing that we should include specific reasons why she's been called a pedophile simply because she's said that the chatlogs they hacked are legitimate?—Ryulong (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- IF you're going to address that GG claim (and you are), you can't really not discuss why it's made and what evidence there was. WalkerWalkerWalker 02:25, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- The text DID NOT call her a pedophile. It said only what she admitted to. Namely, that she had long ago claimed a bunch of shit about being a pedophile, as well as admiration for white supremacism. She did do all of that.---Mona- (talk) 02:28, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is not actionably defamatory to accurately quote what people have said about themselves. End of.---Mona- (talk) 02:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Why go into further detail other than "Gamergate makes these claims because of a chatlog they hacked to find"? Why give any context into the attacks simply because they're things someone said 10 years ago? Is it seriously just because she admitted she said those things as extremely black humor?—Ryulong (talk) 02:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's an argument you were and are welcome to take up with Tallulah and the users that supported her edits -- on the relevant talk page. It is not your place to decree them illegal, hide them, all discussion of them, and have her blocked.---Mona- (talk) 02:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- The only purpose of Tallulah's edits was to add a link to the hitpiece and some context from that hitpiece. I thought it was libelous because of how it was introduced here. It's disingenuous at best, libelous at worst, and factually wrong in other ways.—Ryulong (talk) 02:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with Mona. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο
(talk/stalk) 02:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- What's the "disingenuous" part? Is the paraphrasing disagreeable in some way, i.e. was that in fact not the substance of her remarks? WalkerWalkerWalker 02:56, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Fine. It's not fucking libel. But I still disagree that
Chat logs from an IRC room I was in nearly a decade ago were leaked to gamergate. To say the contents of those logs were not flattering would be putting it lightly. They are, in some ways, much what you’d expect from an early-2000’s chatroom of 4chan expats trying too hard to outdo each other for shock value. Even with that context, much of what I said was gross and disturbing, and I have no interest in defending it.
means it's fine for Tallulah to insist that we say what she means by that and cite Breitbart for the source? They didn't "uncover posts". They hacked her website and found chatlogs and pored through them for anything they could use against her despite what they found being exactly what they do on a daily basis.—Ryulong (talk) 03:00, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Fine. It's not fucking libel. But I still disagree that
- Agree with Mona. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο
- The only purpose of Tallulah's edits was to add a link to the hitpiece and some context from that hitpiece. I thought it was libelous because of how it was introduced here. It's disingenuous at best, libelous at worst, and factually wrong in other ways.—Ryulong (talk) 02:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's an argument you were and are welcome to take up with Tallulah and the users that supported her edits -- on the relevant talk page. It is not your place to decree them illegal, hide them, all discussion of them, and have her blocked.---Mona- (talk) 02:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Why go into further detail other than "Gamergate makes these claims because of a chatlog they hacked to find"? Why give any context into the attacks simply because they're things someone said 10 years ago? Is it seriously just because she admitted she said those things as extremely black humor?—Ryulong (talk) 02:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are you seriously arguing that we should include specific reasons why she's been called a pedophile simply because she's said that the chatlogs they hacked are legitimate?—Ryulong (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Let me ask again: are they accurate? If so, there is zero legal issue, your dispute is strictly editorial, and you should abide by the consensus attained here that you've conveniently revdel'd (and further undo said revdeling). If not, how does that jive with her admission that they are? WalkerWalkerWalker 02:02, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- So I think the examples I brought up illustrate a good point. We apparently think it's OK to call someone a pedophile if we've evidence for it. So is our evidence for TAA less than Ms. Nyberg? FuzzyCatPotato!™
- If it's factual, it's not legally problematic. Do you dispute the accuracy of those logs? WalkerWalkerWalker 00:39, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, a few things...
- Who's the "JAQing gator" here? Me? Bit of an assumption, don't you think?
- If accusations of paedophilia are too touchy for RW, then the only logical option would be to purge this article of all references to Sarah Nyberg. Accusations of paedophilia are the central topic where she's concerned.
- How is it libellous to recap information published in the Breitbart article (or, more specifically, in screencaps of Nyberg's chatlogs that are reproduced in the Breitbart article)? Yes, I'm aware that Breitbart is a right-wing tabloid rag, and that Milo Yiannopoulos is a muckraking hack. But they are still subject to libel laws, and anything they publish will have been approved by their legal team. If they can say it, then from a legal point of view, we can repeat it.
- Considering that the article specifically mentions the Breitbart piece, why shouldn't I link to it as a reference?
- I notice that the current edit of the article has moved away from defending Nyberg and focuses more on criticising Gamergate's handling of the affair. I think that's fair enough. I'm not here to defend Gamergate or its tactics, I'm just bothered by attempts to portray Nyberg as an innocent victim. I've looked at her posts, I've formed my own opinion on her (with neither Milo Yiannopoulos nor Arthur Chu telling me what to believe), and I resent my viewpoint being dismissed as "myths and lies". Tallulah (talk) 11:14, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- To your points
- You were accused JAQing off by insisting we add content that is touchy and only exists to sling mud at a person who is targetted by Gamergate.
- The page can say that Sarah Nyberg was accused of pedophilia by Gamergaters. There's just no reason for RW to expound on the details of that accusations.
- Because the page isn't about her. It's about what Gamergate has done to her because she points out the shit they do. Breitbart's bread and butter is taking things entirely out of context and cherrypicking the worst things anyone has said in order to completely destroy them. The fact that their legal team neutered his article over the course of a week means that it's the bare minimum of what Milo could use to attack her with and still get away with it. And just because they can publish it doesn't mean we should repeat it.
- I'm fairly certain the article contains Ms. Nyberg's (male) birth name and other aspects of her being doxxed by Gamergaters, such as a photograph of her from before she transitioned. Yiannopoulos has done this with pretty much every Gamergate target that he can, such as with Zoe Quinn's (former?) legal name and Gamergate's mythology surrounding Brianna Wu's gender identity. Out of respect, and because Breitbart is a piece of shit tabloid, we shouldn't link to them.
- Also, maybe if you didn't express the opinion that you don't think she's an innocent victim because the only thing she's guilty of is being a 4chan asshole when she was a deeply depressed teenager. If your only opinion of her is from the chatlogs (which were obtained illegally) then that's fucked up. Her blog, which is cited, clearly states she knows what she said was beyond the pale and cannot defend anything she said, but that's clearly not who she is now or has been in nearly a decade so deciding that the article now has to take an accusatory tone towards this person who isn't a subject outside of how Gamergate has attacked them is fucked up. As is your insistence that any sort of article needs to be made about her because of how she interacts with TERFs.—Ryulong (talk) 12:15, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- "insisting we add content that is touchy and only exists to sling mud"... no, what I objected to is the article taking Nyberg's defence as gospel truth. If you want to downplay the accusations altogether and just have a brief he-said/she-said summary that gives the reader room to decide for themselves, that's fine by me.
- "just because they can publish it doesn't mean we should repeat it." My point was that, legally, we can repeat it. This was my response to the libel concerns. Whether or not we should is a separate issue, I acknowledge.
- "Also, maybe if you didn't express the opinion that you don't think she's an innocent victim because the only thing she's guilty of is being a 4chan asshole when she was a deeply depressed teenager." That sentence doesn't even make coherent sense.
- "your insistence that any sort of article needs to be made about her because of how she interacts with TERFs" - er, insistence? I suggested such an article, in a single post, and as nobody gave a positive response I did not push the suggestion any further. Tallulah (talk) 14:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe it's because you think defense of Sarah with regards to this particular attack conflates apologism for anything that she said which isn't the case. Defending her as a person against baseless attacks on her character isn't defending the flimsy justification for the attack.
- We can quote Breitbart but we don't have to.
- My apologies for my awkward phrasing there. I think it's bullshit that you've decided to judge her for shit she presently realizes was wrong by what appears to be mild victim blaming on your part simply because of the nature of what she said 10 years ago which she recognizes as bad taste humor she no longer indulges in.
- And acknowledged.—Ryulong (talk) 14:49, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, you think I'm a bad person for being suspicious of Nyberg. You're entitled to that opinion. And trust me, coming to the conclusion I did was pretty painful. I struggled with whether or not I was being fair on her. I later cut off a swathe of Twitter contacts who still stood by her, including several people I was very fond of (despite what David Gerard seems to think, I'm not a Gamergate supporter). It wasn't easy for me. But I've looked at her posts, and I remain unconvinced that she was "trolling" or "edgelording". Her defence, to me, seems less like an honest expression of a desire to turn over a new leaf and more like an excuse to avoid facing up to her past. I don't expect the article to push this point of view, but I think it is reasonable for it to at least acknowledge - even implicitly - that this view exists and cannot be dismissed as mere "myths and lies". Tallulah (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- It's weird to claim that she's trying to avoid "facing up to her past" when that medium link reveals that she actually handed over the logs to the police who concluded that no crime was committed on her part. People grow up from their shitty teenage edgelord phase, except for Gamergators who are stuck in it forever. Typhoon (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- People have vomited up the red pill mid GG.—Ryulong (talk) 15:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm leery about going any further into this discussion lest I face post deletion and banning, but did Nyberg get in touch with the police before or after Yiannopoulos had done the same? If it's the latter, then it's not a particularly brave move on her part. She couldn't have got into any more trouble than she already was. Tallulah (talk) 15:39, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- KAFKATRAP DETECTED. (Times 2!) Hipocrite (talk) 15:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, I have no idea what's going on now. I should probably bow out. Tallulah (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, she did contact the police and a lawyer while Milo's article went out in order to handle the false reports that were being made on her.—Ryulong (talk) 21:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really see how Sarah didn't own up to her past -- she admitted she did it, said she shouldn't have and that what she had said was terrible, said that she's endeavoring to be a different person now, and as far as I can tell, has not been re-offending. I'm not sure what other check boxes she would need to hit.
- That being said, while several bits of her edgelording (like the paedophile stuff) is easily dismissable as fantasy merely by checking the claimed events against reality, stuff like white supremacy apologism isn't -- and I don't think it's fair to rely on her word alone that none of it was ever sincere, especially when that's a metric that we're judging much of GG on.
- However, the key note is that, for all intents and purposes, she has strongly repudiated that behavior, and I think that's a much stronger message -- that GG is hypocritically going after someone for once doing what they do as often as they breathe, and yet this person was able to recognize that that behavior was wrong and rejected it. Liiiiiike...I dunno, if a cop who had once targeted minorities rejected that life and became a whistleblower, the cops being whistleblown tried to claim the moral high ground and said that cop should be imprisoned for what they did in the past, while beating up minorities, trying to hide that the whole reason they're attacking this person is that the first cop rejected that life. Hell, if there's not a name for that kind of fallacy already, there should be.
- Also, we still need to remove that stuff from the TAA page.KrytenKoro (talk) 15:57, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I did that yesterday.—Ryulong (talk) 21:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Also, we still need to remove that stuff from the TAA page.KrytenKoro (talk) 15:57, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, she did contact the police and a lawyer while Milo's article went out in order to handle the false reports that were being made on her.—Ryulong (talk) 21:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, I have no idea what's going on now. I should probably bow out. Tallulah (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- KAFKATRAP DETECTED. (Times 2!) Hipocrite (talk) 15:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- It's weird to claim that she's trying to avoid "facing up to her past" when that medium link reveals that she actually handed over the logs to the police who concluded that no crime was committed on her part. People grow up from their shitty teenage edgelord phase, except for Gamergators who are stuck in it forever. Typhoon (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, you think I'm a bad person for being suspicious of Nyberg. You're entitled to that opinion. And trust me, coming to the conclusion I did was pretty painful. I struggled with whether or not I was being fair on her. I later cut off a swathe of Twitter contacts who still stood by her, including several people I was very fond of (despite what David Gerard seems to think, I'm not a Gamergate supporter). It wasn't easy for me. But I've looked at her posts, and I remain unconvinced that she was "trolling" or "edgelording". Her defence, to me, seems less like an honest expression of a desire to turn over a new leaf and more like an excuse to avoid facing up to her past. I don't expect the article to push this point of view, but I think it is reasonable for it to at least acknowledge - even implicitly - that this view exists and cannot be dismissed as mere "myths and lies". Tallulah (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- To your points
" If they can say it, then from a legal point of view, we can repeat it." That's not a good way to put it. Some sites may commit libel because they don't give a shit, and/or their lawyers could suck, and/or they ignore their lawyers. My point is that Breitbart is not likely to totally not care if it opens itself to serious defamation damages, and moreover, they were not sued. But the critical point is: Because the woman actually did say what they claim, and she admits it, they are safe in publishing. As are we. (Technically, this is defamation -- It's just that an absolute defense to defamation is that the defamatory statements are true.) I do think the issue merits coverage because it is interesting information about the GG controversy, but I'd be sympathetic toward Sarah's explanation as to how long ago this was, and where her head was then.---Mona- (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Useful somewhere
This writeup about the "Alison Prime" fiasco probably has use somewhere here.—Ryulong (talk)
Take a step back
Now that you can all see just how crazy Ryulong is, isn't it time to re-evaluate your stance on certain things? For anyone to believe what this wiki seems to about GamerGate, requires a Herculean level of cherry-picking and denial of common sense.
The very first claim, about Gjoni's 'rant', do you still believe all that? Christ, Gjoni is accused of physical assault in that article with NO proof provided, besides a very anecdotal second-hand account. How in the unholy fuck is that 'Rational' ?
This whole site needs to take a step back and re-evaluate what rationality really is.
Can you seriously not question the integrity of articles that were subject to thousands of edits by people with such obsessive compulsion? - — Unsigned, by: 46.7.184.101 / talk / contribs
- Yeah, no. It turns out a pile of us were not in fact under a hypnotic Ryulong spell, actually read the sources and actually noticed which out of Gjoni and Quinn spent the sixteen months since the Zoe Post doing everything they could to keep harassing the other and which just continued not to want anything to do with the other. Assume we actually know the material - David Gerard (talk) 01:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- This article and you actually knowing the material are a contradiction in terms. Try again. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, Gjoni was put under a gag order, while Quinn set up alerts to monitor his online activity. What did Gjoni do that was harassment in those months? Quinn is not someone anyone should be backing , she's abusive as hell.
The whole page needs a rewrite. I mean for Chrissake, Joshua Goldberg is a textbook Gator? "He's a right-wing batshit libertarian free speech reactionary culture warrior who doesn't give a shit about video games"
The idea that GamerGate doesn't care about games is embarrassingly false. — Unsigned, by: 46.7.184.101 / talk / contribs
- [citation needed] The FCP Foundation
(talk/stalk) 02:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- GG embraced Jack Thompson. It's impossible to say GG is about games at that point. Also, I wanna know your score as a real gamer - David Gerard (talk) 07:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, it didn't.
- Please sign your posts with four sets of "~"'s, if you plan on sticking around. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Second IP saying that this is basically a case of poorly done associations done to demonize an entire spectrum of people, specifically the type that's touted around by Right wing groups to discredit feminism (Via nutpicking) and socialism (Via nutpicking, again.). There's a difference between agreeing with somebody's statements in a specific encounter and all of them. It's why recruitment tactics from Neo-Nazi's don't involve saying a simple, possibly agreeable statement like "Trump is really popular because he's given up on trying to hide his racism." or "Obama's term in office shows he shouldn't have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize" and going "Gotcha, you agreed with me, a Neo-Nazi! You are now one of us!" 90.195.252.170 (talk) 01:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Please sign your posts with four sets of "~"'s, if you plan on sticking around. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, it didn't.
UN Cyberfailure retread
Okay, Let's have a second look at the UN report now that both the event and aftermath are done, and clear up some alligator shaped strawmen that Draggin'Dragon and chums ended up making.
Claim --The UN report Cyber Violence Against Women & Girls: A Worldwide Wake-Up Call uses anti-gaming rhetoric and Anita Sarkeesian supported it! Rebuttal --Gamergate is getting its panties in a knot over a single citation in a single sentence in this 70 page report by the UN Broadband Commission. This one citation was written by Michele Steinberg, one of Lyndon LaRouche's cronies. This one citation used to source one sentence about the normalization of violence in video games, that is immediately followed by a statement that such discussion is related to but not within the scope of this one report, apparently automatically invalidates the whole of the report in Gamergate's eyes. The citation may be shit but at least everyone can recognize that. Gamergate is also only mentioned twice in the whole report, and that's in reference to both Zoë Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian being women who were attacked online. And Gamergate obsessing over this report on how to stop cyberviolence, and how it could allegedly be considered censorship of them, says more about them than it does about the report.
Counter-Rebuttal:
It's not just one citation. Ignoring obvious mistakes that show that the report was basically a first draft (The empty cites and c:// drive cite) and the fact that more than one report was used misleadingly (A localized report on harassment via WhatsApp) became this
"The use of WhatsApp instant messaging, for example, has become, according to some reports, the latest harassment tool of choice in countries like India and Malaysia, and increasingly around the world."
This is the infamous c:// drive report, by the way.
Another quote from articles: "the Pew report quoted in the paper conveniently ignores the research center's finding that men experience online harassment more often than women, although they are less likely to be sexually harassed or stalked."
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/09/uns-cyberharassment-report-is-really-bad.html
Finally, the UN, Zoe Quinn and Randi Harper have disavowed, apologized and also participated in taking apart this report, as quoted in these motherboard articles:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/united-nations-apologizes-for-fault-ridden-cyberviolence-report
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/im-disappointed-zoe-quinn-speaks-out-on-un-cyberviolence-report
Something Anita Sarkessian has at the very least not made a comment on so far, be it disapproval or not.
Claim Cyber-harassment/Cyber-violence isn't a thing, there's no real life consequences! Rebuttal In essence, the use of terms like "harassment" and "violence" are essentially elevated terms of "bullying", and on that note, considering the vast number of people who have been victims of cyberbullying (Amanda Todd and Tyler Clementi as the most prominent examples), it's downright silly to claim that there can never be real-life consequences, since it can force people into changes in their own personal life, such as having to employ security to take you to places (as is currently the case with Sarkeesian), fearing for your life when people dox you or turn up at your place of work threatening your life (the latter of which happened with Randi Harper) and of course can make you so miserable that you may feel compelled to suicide, as has happened to numerous cyberbullying victims.
Counter-Rebuttal:
"Cyber VAWG includes hate speech (publishing a blasphemous libel), hacking (intercepting private communications), identity theft, online stalking (criminal harassment) and uttering threats. It can entail convincing a target to end their lives (counselling suicide or advocating genocide). The Internet also facilitates other forms of violence against girls and women including trafficking and sex trade. " - Cyber Violence Against Women and Girls
"I worry that they’re talking about all these categories of things and putting it under the heading of violence against women." - Ken White.
There was more criticism of the fact that they created a "phrase that sounds like it's straight out of a 1990s episode of 60 Minutes" (Randi Harper quote) and used it to define not only threats but Human trafficking. People don't deny this happens, people deny the legitimacy of "cyberviolence".
Claim Sarkeesian is saying stuff like calling her a "liar and "she sucks" is harassment and wants to censor it!
Rebuttal While the phrasing was admittedly poor, when we consider that some of the examples of calling Anita Sarkeesian a "liar" includes mass-brigading her with baseless, long-debunked accusations of her being a "scam-artist" and a "fraud" as well as claiming that she's doxed herself and that she's faked threats against her, then hell yes that's an example of harassment. Similarly, the ways that members of Gamergate have used to tell Sarkeesian that she "sucks" have included pretty much every female gender-specific insult under the sun, as well as threats of assault, rape, and murder, not to mention attempting to hack her Kickstarter and YouTube accounts, doxing her to the point where she had to flee her home, and threatening places where she is due to speak with massacres unless she doesn't appear. This is the kind of so-called "freeze peach" that she and Zoë Quinn want to root out. Frankly the sorts of people who engage in such vile harassment absolutely deserve to face dire consequences for their actions, and the fact that these people want to protect that kind of free speech says a hell of a lot more about them than it does about the people they claim are "culural authoritarians".
Counter-rebuttal: Honestly, there isn't one. Zoe and Anita were not talking about singular events but the sheer masses of criticisms and more they got daily, with varying degrees of sincerity. It's no different than the stress Totalbiscuit and many famous streamers are under by how interactive you can be with your "fanbase" online.
Claim
Why is the UN focusing on this when there's REAL violence going on in other parts of the world?!
Rebuttal
This is the fallacy of relative privation in action, a standby of MRAs. Humanity is capable of focusing on more than one problem at once, and since there are many real victims of cyber-harassment, that fact is compelling enough to treat it as a problem that should be resolved.
Counter-rebuttal: This is pretty much a "There's starving children in africa" deflect that doesn't work.
90.195.252.170 (talk) 16:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- cool story bro - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 01:16, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- on a more serious note: Your first point is bad because it's known because the UN subcommittee took it down for further review, and doesn't have any actual bearing on Gamergate or cyberviolence.
- Your second point is bad because you're attacking the authors of the report again rather than it's substance.
- Your third point is bad because you're equating the harassment directed at Gamergate's targtets as "criticism".
- Your fourth point is bad because going "There's starving children in africa" is the fallacy of relative position. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 01:22, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, anyone who's not this genius wanna take a bite?
- First off, I was agreeing with the third and fourth points. Perhaps if you were reading a little more closely rather than typing with hulk rage at "de ebiny" you'd see that I was justifying the third rebuttal with more statements and agreeing with the core part of the fourth!
- The first point is sound because both the first and second rebuttals are painfully obvious strawmen punching exercises put there back when we had a revdelling idiot out to remake his private Ideological Echo Chamber. It isn't just one Citation, I quoted that. The fact you don't want to even note that this report was essentially disowned by nearly everyone involved is nothing but pathetic points scoring, like everything GG did with Nyberg.
- My second point is not attacking the authors like you just said, but quoting how the Report used a definition of "Cyber-violence" that practically everyone who dissected the thing hated and found "Troubling", "Lacking nuance" and "problematic". Finally, the "claim" used is pretty much the definition of a strawman, because nobody denies that "[...]hate speech (publishing a blasphemous libel), hacking (intercepting private communications), identity theft, online stalking (criminal harassment) and uttering threats. It can entail convincing a target to end their lives (counselling suicide or advocating genocide). [...] trafficking and sex trade." all don't exist.
- tl;dr Actually read before you dismiss "De Ebiny".90.195.252.170 (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Starting from the Top
This entire article is so laughably an exercise in arguing against strawmen to an echo chamber that it's actually kind of daunting. I guess it's like if somebody handed one of you an entire bible and said "Debunk it." So I guess I'll just start at the start.
"Eron Gjoni made a 9000-word rant designed to gather trolls willing to drive Quinn off the internet, and, preferably, to suicide."
Please provide any citation confirming that Eron Gjoni wrote this with intent the to create an internet hate mob, or failing that argue your case. I can provide editorials, including from the very far-left social-justice-sphere asserting that the Zoe Post is a harrowing tale from an emotionally abused and gaslighted victim ; I don't agree with this assessment anymore than the 'hateful revenge porn' one, but it should go to show that there's definitely room for interpretation and simply stating your opinion of the piece as unquestionable fact isn't good enough.
Anyways, following the hyperlink to the gamergate article proper, there are two citations presumably in support of this assertion. One is to a personal blog authored by Margarett Pless, a staunch anti-gamergater who I mainly remember for doxing a feminist charity and her hilarious attempts to crowdsource a swatting on a PUA pro-gamergate moron. This is not a person whose personal blog makes for a credible citation anywhere, let alone in a drama she's been up to her elbows in for the past year. The other citation is an interview with Zoe herself, quoting her as stating that Eron's purpose was to create an online hate mob. This is extremely disingenuous when the statement you're citing is, verbatim "His stated purpose was to appeal to trolls who had a history of hating Quinn, namely the 4chan and Reddit users who had been on her case for a year and a half." Yes, it was his stated purpose. Stated by Zoe Quinn. This is an incredibly obvious and transparent attempt to suggest that Eron Gjoni stated that he wrote the Zoe Post to raise an online lynch mob, when he stated nothing of the sort. Somebody's "alleged purpose" infers somebody else alleged it. Somebody's 'stated purpose' infers they themself stated it. I find it very difficult believe that the person responsible for this didn't do it knowingly and deliberately. Finally, unless I've somehow missed it, where is any mention of Gjoni attmpeting to drive Zoe 'preferably to suicide' ever mentioned, in either of those citations. Was the original author simply editorializing? Is it a Scientific Point of View to just announce opinions as fact and then to sneakily twist our words around to make it appear that he confessed to it? And hell, throw in a completely fabricated "also he wanted to drive her to suicide" for good measure? Seriously (talk) 06:45, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Missing the point. That section needs to be removed as Eron Gjoni is not a member of Gamergate; any harm caused by the Zoepost is not harm caused by Gamergate. Eron's intentions and goals are entirely unrelated to ethics in video game journalism, and the post was written long before the movement came into being. Anything concerning Eron's actions is out of place here. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 09:39, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- COOL STORY BRO - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 09:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Also, socjus is actually cubical in nature - David Gerard (talk) 09:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- ...Gamergate is based around that post. Narky Sawtooth
(Nyarnyar~) 09:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- ...Gamergate is based around that post. Narky Sawtooth
- Certainly. But that post is not Gamergate. A group that comes into being because of an event is not itself responsible for an event, especially when their motivations, actions, and stated aims are completely different from eachother. Kindly stop circle-jerking about how horrible you imagine Gamergate to be and live up to your damn name. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- "But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:07, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Forgive me for mistaking you for a place concerned with accuracy instead of propaganda. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Eron is still tied to the origins of gamergate, therfore he stays, and so does Zoepost.Keter (talk) 10:13, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- No. Eron is not a member of Gamergate. He has never claimed to be. His actions are not Gamergate's actions. Things that occurred prior to the existence of the movement and group of people that identify as Gamergate cannot be used to justify the statement that 'Gamergate does harm'. This is elementary logic. To state that a group harms others, you must point to examples of people inside that group harming others, not people who are outside of the group and actions prior to the founding of the group. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:15, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I thought Gamergate didn't have members - David Gerard (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- 192, saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. Eron's stated purpose for the Zoepost, at the time and after the fact, was to raise up a hate mob against Quinn. It's documented. The fact that he's subsequently tried to keep that mob at arm's length is deniability that's only plausible to the terminally gullible. Although, I suppose, dishonest supporters of him and the hate mob he stirred up might also claim that it's plausible. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, it wasn't. This is not documented. Your sources do not support this. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Saying that doesn't make your argument for you. Put up or shut up. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:39, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do you understand how the burden of proof works? I am not the one making the assertion. How do you want me to 'put up' that something isn't documented? 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- You're the one pretending our sources and documentation isn't there. You haven't gone to any lengths to prove that this is the case. Have you even read the article? - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've debunked the whole damn pack of lies at length on other fora. But we need to start from the beginning, with baby steps. Your sources and documentation aren't there. I can't prove an absence. Prove a presence, or shut up. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:44, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Put up or shut up, BoN. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Learn how the burden of proof works, or shut up, Kitsunelaine. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- We do know. We have presented evidence. Now you need to point out specific flaws with it rather than try to handwave it away. Any chance you'll manage that? Queexchthonic murmurings 10:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Learn how the burden of proof works, or shut up, Kitsunelaine. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Put up or shut up, BoN. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) 192, go and read that interview he gave. Seriously, go and do it. It's pretty obvious that malice was his primary motive and he flat out states that he expected his audience to lash out against her. Then read his participation in #burgersandfries and try to hand wave that away. See if you can come back here and proclaim that his actions were unrelated to gamergate. We could do with a good laugh. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:47, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- 'That interview'? So specific. It doesn't exist, and you know it. 'It's pretty obvious' doesn't mean it's a 'stated purpose'. You have clearly confirmed that you are willfully lying. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:49, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- here you go - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've never heard of this 'Eron Gnoji' chap. Maybe spell the name right of the guy you're libeling next time? 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe learn to make an actual argument. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've never heard of this 'Eron Gnoji' chap. Maybe spell the name right of the guy you're libeling next time? 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) And in case you're too lazy to do that: the particular article in question. It's actually rather fair and portrays Eron about as sympathetically as he can be. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- While I read this, I'm just going to go ahead and point out that I am not the editor that argued anything about Eron. You're confusing me with a different IP editor. While I happen to share his opinions, my argument is that the Zoe post is not relevant to this article because it predates Gamergate, and the specific context it is used in is 'Gamergate hasn't harmed anyone'. Gamergate is a consumer movement kicked off by events surrounding this post, but this post was not authored by Gamergate. Also, the link looks dead, but I'm goig to screw around with it after I hit submit. EDIT NEver mind, it wasn't dead, but it's this horrible hitpiece. You'll need to be more specific, because there's nothing here that's at all concrete. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:00, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think you should actually make a case against the article instead of just declaring it a hitpiece. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:03, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think you should actually point me to what in this giant 3-page diatribe is supposed to prove your point, if you want me to take you seriously. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:06, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- But you already know enough to declare it a hitpiece. Perhaps you should air your grievances instead of sidestepping when questioned on them? - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- My grievances are off-topic. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- When you bring them up you make them on topic, honey. That's how conversation works. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:12, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- My grievances are off-topic. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you think that's a diatribe, you have clearly never read anything that GG has written. Or, you know, you're just not that bright. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:07, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- But you already know enough to declare it a hitpiece. Perhaps you should air your grievances instead of sidestepping when questioned on them? - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think you should actually point me to what in this giant 3-page diatribe is supposed to prove your point, if you want me to take you seriously. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:06, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think you should actually make a case against the article instead of just declaring it a hitpiece. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:03, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) How can a consumer movement be kicked off by an event that has nothing to do with consumer issues? The point is that Gamergate is just branding slapped onto a bunch of reactionary chucklefucks that have been active since way back when. The most ridiculous parts of GG are the feeble attempts to try and claim it's something to do with consumer issues, or journalistic ethics, or whatever pitiful lie the mob is trying to pitch this week. They were suckers, drawn in by Gjoni to act as his personal army because he was a bitter, needy and abusive person, and his target was the usual kind of target they went for. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:07, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- While I read this, I'm just going to go ahead and point out that I am not the editor that argued anything about Eron. You're confusing me with a different IP editor. While I happen to share his opinions, my argument is that the Zoe post is not relevant to this article because it predates Gamergate, and the specific context it is used in is 'Gamergate hasn't harmed anyone'. Gamergate is a consumer movement kicked off by events surrounding this post, but this post was not authored by Gamergate. Also, the link looks dead, but I'm goig to screw around with it after I hit submit. EDIT NEver mind, it wasn't dead, but it's this horrible hitpiece. You'll need to be more specific, because there's nothing here that's at all concrete. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:00, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- here you go - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- 'That interview'? So specific. It doesn't exist, and you know it. 'It's pretty obvious' doesn't mean it's a 'stated purpose'. You have clearly confirmed that you are willfully lying. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:49, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've debunked the whole damn pack of lies at length on other fora. But we need to start from the beginning, with baby steps. Your sources and documentation aren't there. I can't prove an absence. Prove a presence, or shut up. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:44, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- You're the one pretending our sources and documentation isn't there. You haven't gone to any lengths to prove that this is the case. Have you even read the article? - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do you understand how the burden of proof works? I am not the one making the assertion. How do you want me to 'put up' that something isn't documented? 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Saying that doesn't make your argument for you. Put up or shut up. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:39, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, it wasn't. This is not documented. Your sources do not support this. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- "But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 10:07, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Certainly. But that post is not Gamergate. A group that comes into being because of an event is not itself responsible for an event, especially when their motivations, actions, and stated aims are completely different from eachother. Kindly stop circle-jerking about how horrible you imagine Gamergate to be and live up to your damn name. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 10:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
The Flounce that Never Was
- The Zoe post incidentally exposed consumer issues, such as corruption in the indie game developer scene. It's quite simple. I'm done with you people and your propaganda now, though. You aren't willing to listen to reason, and resort to personal attacks whenever your lack of evidence gets called out. Enjoy your awful delusions. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- No it didn't- because the central claim - 'slept with people for positive coverage' is demonstrably untrue. It's so indefensible that even most GGers don't even try to peddle it any more. You need to get with the programme your brethren are setting, otherwise you'll be really letting the side down. And please, stick the flounce this time. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:11, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Who said anything about journalism? I didn't. Zoe slept with her boss, Joshua Boggs. The journalism angle came in later. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:12, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Eron admitted the Zoe post was mostly fabricated to stir the pot of internet drama. As we do not know how much of it is factual, please stop using it as a source. :) - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:12, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- You're lying. Stop lying. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:13, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Even if that allegation is true, it's still not a consumer issue. How can a consumer movement be kicked off by an event that has nothing to do with consumer issues? Queexchthonic murmurings 11:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- That's like asking how a guy on holiday being shot can start a world war.Keter (talk) 11:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Except he wasn't on holiday and wasn't a random guy. Top analogy there, skip. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:34, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- That's like asking how a guy on holiday being shot can start a world war.Keter (talk) 11:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- bro did you even read the article we linked you
- "As Gjoni began to craft “The Zoe Post,” his early drafts read like a “really boring, really depressing legal document,” he says. He didn’t want to merely prove his case; it had to read like a potboiler. So he deliberately punched up the narrative" - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Also see this where it's shown that he deliberately convenes among people as to how to attract as much hate as he possibly can to Zoe. The Zoe post is not a trustworthy source in any sense of the word. It's laughable to suggest as much, as it is an actual hitpiece, unlike the stuff you seem to think are hitpieces. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 11:24, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Even if that allegation is true, it's still not a consumer issue. How can a consumer movement be kicked off by an event that has nothing to do with consumer issues? Queexchthonic murmurings 11:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- You're lying. Stop lying. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:13, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- No it didn't- because the central claim - 'slept with people for positive coverage' is demonstrably untrue. It's so indefensible that even most GGers don't even try to peddle it any more. You need to get with the programme your brethren are setting, otherwise you'll be really letting the side down. And please, stick the flounce this time. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:11, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- The Zoe post incidentally exposed consumer issues, such as corruption in the indie game developer scene. It's quite simple. I'm done with you people and your propaganda now, though. You aren't willing to listen to reason, and resort to personal attacks whenever your lack of evidence gets called out. Enjoy your awful delusions. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is correct. He also corroborated it with others incuding his own mother.Keter (talk) 11:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Umm... the same mother that he admits told him that he shouldn't publish it? How can she corroborate anything, unless she was peeking in Quinn's window watching? Queexchthonic murmurings 11:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- If she told him not to publish, she must have logically had an unpublished draft of it.Keter (talk) 11:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Which is only evidence that a draft existed, and nothing else. We already know he was writing a dishonest screed to sic a hate mob on his ex. What's even your point? Queexchthonic murmurings 11:34, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- If she told him not to publish, she must have logically had an unpublished draft of it.Keter (talk) 11:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Umm... the same mother that he admits told him that he shouldn't publish it? How can she corroborate anything, unless she was peeking in Quinn's window watching? Queexchthonic murmurings 11:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
@Queex: People using sex to get ahead in an industry is a consumer issue. But even putting that completely aside, let's focus on the Grayson/Quinn thing: Yes, this was proven mostly false. So what? There was reason enough to believe it wasn't, before more information came to light. It got people concerned about the overall issue of corruption in games journalism, and many other examples that weren't disproven came to light very, very quickly. It doesn't take accurate information to start a movement. Why would it?
@Kitsunelaine: Yes, the language used in the post, not the facts. Everything in the Zoe post is true[citation needed]. The tone, however, was workshopped extensively. Eron has said this repeatedly and at length. Stop lying. You can't wish the facts of the Zoe post out of existence because you don't like it. Pless's article is full of lies and her sources do not even support her claims.
@Keter: You've proved my point for me. Franz Ferdinand was not shot by anyone participating in World War 1. The Zoe Post was not written by anyone participating in Gamergate, it is not a valid example of how Gamergate harms people. 192.249.132.237 (talk) 11:26, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Except that there is no reliable evidence that 'sex to get ahead' ever happened. And even if it did, it is not a consumer issue. It would be a professional conduct issue, but it impacts consumers zilch. Price fixing is a consumer issue. Publishers blacklisting reviewers is a consumer issue. Review sites firing reviewers for giving an advertiser's game a bad review is a consumer issue. Day 1 patches for game-breaking bugs is a consumer issue. These are all consumer issues that GG has never given a shit about, however much they claim to when their ridiculous inconsistency is pointed out. Eron Gjoni participated in GG from the very start, continued to participate, and continues to participate. You're doing nothing but embarrassing yourself by making such wildly counterfactual claims. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:32, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Wait. Didn't she have sex with the guy weeks after he gave her a "meh" review for her free-to-play game? Or am I thinking of someone else, because it sounds pretty boring and irrelevant to ethics if so.-- Forerunner (talk) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Wow this got silly. Okay, I think "Gjoni isn't part of gamergate" is a silly enough claim not to bother addressing, since he's definitely spent enough time there to be considered part of it now, even if the ZoePost technically predated it. That doesn't change the fact that your citing is absolute garbage. You've still claimed 'Gjoni's stated purpose for X was Y' and cited an interview with somebody else stating his purpose. That's wilfully, shamefully, egregiously misleading and you know it. I came here to check over your citing, top to bottom. The very first claim I look into and you're claiming what Eron Gjoni's stated goal is by citing what Zoe Quinn stated his goal is. How is that not intellectual dishonesty, verging on the level of outright lying? If this is your standards for SPOV this doesn't bode well for the rest of your page. Seriously (talk) 13:38, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- That's the world of first and third person writing. It's what can make interviews engrossing to read, and is a useful writing tactic. It can be reasonably assumed that they are paraphrasing what Gjoni said to them in a way that makes it a well written interview. We don't have any reason to assume a reliable reporting site is being intentionally untruthful. - Kitsunelaine 「Beware. The foxgirls are coming.」 13:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- It wasn't paraphrasing what Gjoni said. Your citations were an interview with Zoe Quinn and the blog post of a known troll. You've made claims on what Eron Gjoni's stated goal was, and cited Zoe Quinn stating that she thought his goal was to raise a lynch-mob to harass her. That's insanely disingenuous. I'm not calling The Guardian intentionally untruthful. I'm not calling Zoe Quinn intentionally untruthful. I'm laying that charge at the feet of the person who decided "Eron Gjoni's stated goal was to bully Zoe Quinn [source : Zoe Quinn]" was acceptable. That person was being intentionally untruthful. Seriously (talk) 13:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- ...So you haven't actually read the interview article. Queexchthonic murmurings 13:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Apologies, I made a mistake. For some reason I thought the Guardian interview with Zoe Quinn was cited. Instead it's [| idledilettante's blog post] and [| We Hunted the Mammoth's summary] of the same blog post, focusing on comments made by one 'Rachel M' regarding Eron's goals in making the Zoe Post. I retract what I said about the assertion being disingenuous. It's actually directly contradicted by the source you've cited. Is the entire article going to be like this? Seriously (talk) 14:18, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is the link to the article that was earlier. Please actually read it. Queexchthonic murmurings 15:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I read it. Putting aside that it's not the citation for the statement I'm contesting, at no point does it suggest that the Zoe Post was designed to drive Zoe Quinn to suicide, as asserted. At no point does it recount Gjoni stating his goals except to damage Zoe Quinn's reputation (or warn people about her, if we're being charitable). His purported goals of raising a troll army is not even stated, just inferred by the author of the interview by the assertion that Eron workshopped his post to 'find an audience'. That's why 'Eron's stated goal' is so disingenuous. Alleged goal, fine. Purported goal, fine. Even just outright stating 'his goal was to...' is fine. It's still presenting opinion as fact, and it's still not entirely backed by the source, but we can fairly honestly interpret that as being the gist of the source. However, saying 'his stated goal was to...' is outright intellectual dishonesty. I don't think anybody can read that and take it to mean anything but 'Eron himself stated this was his goal', and the sources provided simply do not back this to any degree. Jason's description of the process by which Eron gathered information on Zoe is chilling, and definitely bears mention. You could definitely do something with that. However, alleging that he was attempting to drive her to suicide, is outright speculation completely unsupported by this source or either of the other two cited sources. I'm not trying to defend Eron. I think he's a whining, vindictive shit of a person. But your sourcing is complete garbage and does not even touch on allegations you're making about him, let alone support them. Seriously (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you can read his own words, his own account of what he did and his justifications for that, and not put two and two together that his purpose was harrassment to get back at someone he felt wronged by, then there's no helping you. It's archetypical stalker behaviour. It's a valid cite because it makes his purposes crystal clear to anyone not blinded by their wish to deny the origins of GG or their own messed-up attitude to relationships. Queexchthonic murmurings 21:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I read it. Putting aside that it's not the citation for the statement I'm contesting, at no point does it suggest that the Zoe Post was designed to drive Zoe Quinn to suicide, as asserted. At no point does it recount Gjoni stating his goals except to damage Zoe Quinn's reputation (or warn people about her, if we're being charitable). His purported goals of raising a troll army is not even stated, just inferred by the author of the interview by the assertion that Eron workshopped his post to 'find an audience'. That's why 'Eron's stated goal' is so disingenuous. Alleged goal, fine. Purported goal, fine. Even just outright stating 'his goal was to...' is fine. It's still presenting opinion as fact, and it's still not entirely backed by the source, but we can fairly honestly interpret that as being the gist of the source. However, saying 'his stated goal was to...' is outright intellectual dishonesty. I don't think anybody can read that and take it to mean anything but 'Eron himself stated this was his goal', and the sources provided simply do not back this to any degree. Jason's description of the process by which Eron gathered information on Zoe is chilling, and definitely bears mention. You could definitely do something with that. However, alleging that he was attempting to drive her to suicide, is outright speculation completely unsupported by this source or either of the other two cited sources. I'm not trying to defend Eron. I think he's a whining, vindictive shit of a person. But your sourcing is complete garbage and does not even touch on allegations you're making about him, let alone support them. Seriously (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is the link to the article that was earlier. Please actually read it. Queexchthonic murmurings 15:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Apologies, I made a mistake. For some reason I thought the Guardian interview with Zoe Quinn was cited. Instead it's [| idledilettante's blog post] and [| We Hunted the Mammoth's summary] of the same blog post, focusing on comments made by one 'Rachel M' regarding Eron's goals in making the Zoe Post. I retract what I said about the assertion being disingenuous. It's actually directly contradicted by the source you've cited. Is the entire article going to be like this? Seriously (talk) 14:18, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- ...So you haven't actually read the interview article. Queexchthonic murmurings 13:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- It wasn't paraphrasing what Gjoni said. Your citations were an interview with Zoe Quinn and the blog post of a known troll. You've made claims on what Eron Gjoni's stated goal was, and cited Zoe Quinn stating that she thought his goal was to raise a lynch-mob to harass her. That's insanely disingenuous. I'm not calling The Guardian intentionally untruthful. I'm not calling Zoe Quinn intentionally untruthful. I'm laying that charge at the feet of the person who decided "Eron Gjoni's stated goal was to bully Zoe Quinn [source : Zoe Quinn]" was acceptable. That person was being intentionally untruthful. Seriously (talk) 13:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
a brief note on gamers are dead debunking
- the debunking reads":Gamergaters claimed that they were outraged that these websites were perpetuating a harmful stereotype that gamers were all single straight white guys. Except each and every article said the exact opposite: that video game players are from all walks of life, so the "gamer" stereotype should be shelved."
- this clearly isn't the claim. rather the claim is they were being insulted/attacked/bullied ("ironic bring back bullying tweet" really gets to the heart of the matter). rather the referenced kotaku piece already shows this
- "'Gamer' isn't just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use", she writes. "Gamers are over. That's why they're so mad.""These obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers — they are not my audience. They don't have to be yours. There is no 'side' to be on, there is no 'debate' to be had."Note they're not talking about everyone who plays games, or who self-identifies as a "gamer", as being the worst. It's being used in these cases as short-hand, a catch-all term for the type of reactionary holdouts that feel so threatened by gaming's widening horizons. If you call yourself a "gamer" and are a cool person, keep on being a cool person."
- that should be your rebutal not what you have which doesn't even address the claims. the counter rebutal would be that the group the journalists attack as backward shitsippers was much broader and less objectionable. aka who is a "cool person" and who is a bad person who should be ignored or shunned?
Baaliscoming (talk) 14:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Elaboration on the Brazilian Journalist
I'm bringing this up because of the one discussed in the list of claims article, of the Brazilian Journalist that was harassing Anita Sarkeesian - the guy actually existed, and was discussed by multiple sites, including Kotaku. This "journalist" is one Mateus Prado Sousa, and he works for Brazilian clickbait site Celebrinando.
He has been reported multiple times to authorities for sending Anita death threats by both sides of the conversation, though the overpowering majority of the investigative work that exposed him came from Gamergate supporters.
Sousa has demonstrably been attacking Anita Sarkeesian since before Gamergate even happened, and indeed is responsible for both massive amounts of spam directed towards Anita to try to lure people towards Celebrinando (most of his tweets about it are in Portugese), and for sending her legitimate death threats - critically, he was the one who said he would "Kill Anita Sarkeesian at GGC14" (Geek Girl Con 2014) on Twitter. He did so through a sockpuppet account, @AnitaOfJesus, with other threats coming from other socks of his, including @AnitaofDevil. All of this nonsense was centered around trying to get people to check out his battery of Anti-Anita articles on Celebrinando.
Sousa denied involvement - claiming that these attacking accounts were done by troll fans of his - but he was caught in the act later by both Gamergate opponents and proponents alike; IP traces conducted by the Gamergate supporters proved that the harassment that Sousa denied being behind was, in fact, his, and Gamergate opponents helped get these attacking accounts be mass-reported thereafter.
In response to his accounts being reported en masse by both Gamergate supporters and opponents, he started sending death and rape threats to both sides as well. Video evidence of him being caught in the act and essentially admitting to his threats on Twitter was posted on Youtube, but Sousa DMCA'd it and had the video taken down almost immediately (though Gamergate community KotakuInaction apparently still has the thread on the subject).
It is very clear that Gamergate supporters wanted this degenerate gone (and power to them for this; Sousa is a despicable human being) - they quickly dug up which accounts on Twitter were his using the same IP tracing they used to determine earlier that the death threat came from Sousa. There was multiple attempts to report Sousa to the FBI, but the response by authorities was that Feminist Frequency had to report Sousa themselves if prosecution was to happen (in accordance with Brazilian law). Feminist Frequency ultimately did not take direct action against Sousa, but ultimately, didn't really have to - repeated reporting by hundreds of people on both sides led to his various sockpuppet accounts being suspended.
In the weeks to follow, Sousa would admit that he was the threatener and that the threats were done to guide traffic to Celebrinando; his earlier conversation would be confirmed as he actually tried to post the video discussed in the above conversation on his channel. His channel was mass-reported (again, by Gamergate supporters and opponents alike) and taken down, but an archive file of the channel with the video mentioned exists. A screenshot of him shilling his own Anti-Anita article in the very youtube video condemning him exists as well.
Overall, the Sousa case is a bizarre one - but is notable for being a rare case of Gamergate supporters legitimately being involved with attempts to get a particularly reprehensible harasser shut down. Though Gamergate has been responsible for volumes of its own harassment (a natural occurrence of its own leaderless nature as much as anything else), this incident is a testament to the fact that many in the movement were not okay with this, and the fact that they were the ones who ultimately exposed Sousa and his one-man campaign of terror is certainly something worthy of respect. -- SupremeLogician, December 11th, 2015, 11:28AM (EST)
[Censorship] A buncha links
- https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-1-2249404f6a97#.y7dovb3q0
- https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-2-54d49c259de#.x2q33qurk
- https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-3-5b3551bf9293#.bce5paxyn
- https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-4-f3a88b5f87f#.1tv512p2w
Skimmed a few, some decent points, some BS. If anyone needs work to do... 32℉uzzy; 0℃atPotato
(talk/stalk) 03:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not done yet FCP, plan to cover it all by tomorrow, more part to come (I excised the gamergate wiki section from analysis since most to all of the links are down and giving it a fair shake under the circumstances would be difficult). Also, if you found some or even all of what I wrote BS, fine, everyone is entitled to their opinions, I'm just using RW's own article and the sources it provides, holding up a mirror based on RW own standards, and seeing if reality is adequately reflected. As for the censorship tag added to my posts of it on Reddit, that's because of all the accusations it's a one sided shit show that silences all points that disagree with it's conclusions, so I'm seeing how much truth is to those claims. I'll reserve more detailed judgment for the article themselves, but compared to the frankly well written article debunking homeopathy (that article has to be one of the best written things ever on RW, and manages to actually debunk it's subject without making an ideological clusterfuck out of the topic), the article I'm still in the process of debunking is frankly embarrassingly bad by RW's own standards IMO. Arcane (talk)
- Reading these, they have pointed out a lot of the claims have been Debunked at the time and then left, even as the situation changes. Fad editing at it's finest.Keter (talk) 04:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I concur, even cover some of those in my still in progress Part 5. Also, Part 5 actually comes off with RW looking pretty good so far, some of the debunking is actually of decent if not outstanding quality as opposed to some of the earlier parts. Arcane (talk) 04:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- https://medium.com/@infiltrator7n/a-point-by-point-analysis-of-rational-wiki-s-list-of-gamergate-s-claims-part-5-5dcd3a971ef#.qkdzavqp2 - Part 6 should be last part, this is a very long article, will finish it tomorrow, as I had to do a ton of research so far. Arcane (talk) 06:47, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- You know, I can't leave well enough alone, and I've done my absolute best to stay away for a whole week, but Arcane, I must say, you've done a really terrible job of trying to do anything resembling a proper counter-claim to the statements made on this list. So I'm going to address them because your Gamergate evangelism is frankly offensive. And I apologize in advance if this looks like a gish gallop, but Arcane, you're the one posting these things in spurts on Medium.com and I shouldn't have to use another website to post rebuttals your claims.
- To start with, here's one thing that really busts most of your complaints out of the water: the existence of a bias in reporting does not automatically imply that the reporting itself is factually wrong. So many of your complaints in your 5 (and counting) blog entries on this are simply "this person is biased" and that doesn't say anything to prove any point you may have. You and everyone else in Gamergate really need to realize that 100% neutral reporting is actually bad. People shouldn't present both sides of an issue as having equal footing when one side is inherently and objectively wrong. This is what makes Gamergate comparable to every other reactionary group out there. You demand 50/50 treatment to your claims without criticism just like the anti-vaxxers, the anti-science organic-only gluten-free crunchy hippies, global warming deniers, etc. You all claim some big entity is out to get you because there's nothing factually and objectively true about anything you peddle. Margaret Pless, David Futrelle, or Sam Biddle reporting on Gamergate activity directly, without ever distorting the facts, is objective reporting. Just because it's not neutral doesn't mean it's not objective and doesn't mean it's not correct.
- And another one of your constant complaints is that RationalWiki does not directly cite various websites where people have had their dox posted. That is because we are trying to prevent furthering any actual harm to come to these people by not posting links to The Ralph Retort or Lolcow.Wiki as you seem so wanton to refer to. So with those out of the way, let's see what minor quibbles you've managed to find by going through half of this page (as of my writing this).
- "[Eron Gjoni] never posted this to 4chan" is dubious at best. It made its way there somehow and it certainly wasn't because he was advertising his post on SA or PA because those were both taken down. And as Margaret Pless points out, an early draft/post/whatever on his blog actively welcomed people from /pol/ and /r9k/.
- We are not claiming that the risque photoshoot that Zoe posed for was exposed in a hack because we've already had to deal with someone on RW saying that the photos were discovered in such a way was inaccurate. The fact still stands that these photos would not have been discovered had Eron not been actively participating in #burgersandfries and giving out her old screennames and password hints.
- You've demanding a citation for the threats Quinn and Lifschitz received as a result of Gamergate's early formation? Or that Gamergate began distributing their old home address? Or are you demanding a citation that Quinn fled her home? Either way, this article on The Guardian mentions that she fled her home. That's all that needs to be said here.
- Even if Zoe's relationship with Nathan Grayson was anything resembling an ethical violation, the blame should not rest at all on Zoe's shoulders. It would be Grayson's fault for not disclosing this. But again, there was never any ethical violation here.
- With regards to your Phil Fish rebuttals, you're bringing up the content of Allistar Pinsof's interview with Techraptor, in which he alleged that Fish had illegally used a friend's game assets. If you were to read deeper into the list we've provided here, namely the section List of Gamergate claims#GameJournoPros, you would see that people have actively debunked pretty much everything Pinsof said in his interview. Even the person he namedropped as having had content stolen from him came forward and said that Pinsof was lying. So before you continue to try to debunk these things, keep this in mind: Pinsoff is a liar and has gone back on everything he said to TechRaptor.
- Elizabeth Sampat's blog entry definitely describes people destroying gaming projects they had worked on and just quitting the industry so I don't know why you've not bothered to properly address that in your counter-rebuttal.
- You're framing your dislike of Anita Sarkeesian in this very thoroughly. She's not saying "Gamers are bad". She's saying "These video games use storytelling elements that perpetuate sexist feelings towards real women".
- Just because the shooting threat was not credible to authorities or the school does not mean it did not have an impact. That is why it is a threat. It is meant to scare.
- Anita Sarkeesian is still not a video game journalist.
- Brianna Wu has indeed cut her teeth in the field of video game reviewing and such, but she is still by trade a game developer who has released one title so far, and AFAIK she is working on a PC port of it. I also see you like to use the term "transsexual" which no one really uses anymore. Just a red flag. I'll get back to this later.
- Oh Lorde. lolcow.wiki? Really? And basing it off of the stalking Fart and Ralph did on her because of timestamps and shadows and such? No we're not touching this with a 39 and a half foot pole.
- As I said above, we're not citing the actual doxing.
- The point of the Jenn Frank section is to show that The Guardian decided not to include the disclosure she had originally put in her article because they felt it was trivial. Mind you, the only reason it was ever reinstated was because she had demanded that they do while Gamergaters were hounding her for having not made the disclosure.
- Since I last checked, there was no statement from Mattie Brice herself that concerned her quitting the industry in the form of her own blog or whatever. Futrelle posting the tweets is fine as a source. But again you fall back on your complaints of "bias" which just shows how very little you actually know about journalism and what constitutes a proper and dangerous bias.
- And now that you're up to Dan Olson, I can mention another overarching fact that destroys your various counter rebuttals concerning him, because I'm sure he is going to come up over and over. Yes, he went into 8chan's pedo boards to find material for his expose. Yes, seeking out child pornography is illegal under Canadian law. However, the important fact here is that all the charges against him were dropped as unfounded as he reveals here. It is perhaps a mistake to omit this fact in the article, but that can be fixed.
- Jennifer Allaway was not out looking for sexism as you're claiming. Her survey was "have you experienced anything that you consider sexism". This entry feels victim blame-y to me, particularly how you're dropping in "trigger" for "top kek" as people might say. If you actually read what she said, it doesn't look like her response matches your description.
- Just because DIGRA works with feminists doesn't mean anything.
- Pointing out Gawker is morally wrong with what they did to that CEO(?) and Hulk Hogan doesn't help your case. Everyone recognizes that was shit. This is actually touched upon in List of Gamergate claims#Gawker. Also, all of the advertising on Kotaku and Gamasutra was restored once they realized what they had done with regards to Gamergate. Alexander's editorial to game developers that the "bro gamer" demographic that overlaps with Gamergate isn't one that needs pandering anymore shouldn't have been a reason that her website's source of income was to be attacked.
- You drop in "bias" again with regards to Natalie Zed so this argument isn't worth anything. Just because someone holds a negative opinion of Gamergate does not mean that they cannot write about it. She makes no money out of her doctoral dissertation being about Gamergate while disliking Gamergate so your analogy here is irrelevant. There's no conflict of interest. Gamergate is just giving her a free background check.
- You've mentioned the Patricia Hernandez stuff once (or someone else did prior) before. The Max Temkin editorial was dealt with long before Gamergate happened. And here we go again with your (and I assume Gamergate's) complete and utter lack of understanding as to what constitutes a conflict of interest. Hernandez wasn't paid anything by Anna Anthropy, Christine Love, or Zoe Quinn to say anything about their video games. She does not benefit from her friends by saying good things about their games. The threshhold of "positive coverage" or "good press" held by Gamergaters is utterly and incredibly wrong.
- Like Dan Olson, Sarah Nyberg has not been arrested for anything she said in the chatlogs 10 years ago because she didn't actually do what is said in them. She has gone on record as saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "I was a 4channer idiot who used black humor to try to out-shock my friends and I recognize what I said back then is completely indefensible but I've grown from that behavior". Roph's apparent counterrebuttal has no teeth because he's a Gamergater out to destroy her reputation and just happens to have a bit more ability to do so because he can claim otherwise as being a former (and that's an important factor here) friend of hers.
- Peter Coffin's wife is real and so is his kid. Gamergate's insistence that neither person exists despite having doxxed her to find what hospital she was staying at while undergoing jaw surgery is incredibly disingenuous. The fact you don't bother to include that in your counterrebuttal is equally as disingenuous. Also, Coffin was one of the people who reported 8chan to cloudflare and his dox was included in Brennan's Twitter, which is again something we're not linking to.
- And while we're at it, you mention Jace Connors here. Just because Rankowski came out and said Jace Connors was a persona he made up does not change the fact that he terrified Brianna Wu with the threats the "persona" made.
- Now in part 2, you're still completely disingenuous here when you insist that you personally are not a misogynist so therefore all of Gamergate is absolved of the incredibly misogynistic behavior it has done towards any one woman online (when in fact you seem to be guilty of stalking Brianna Wu). Again the point here is that Gamergate is actively hostile towards women because it descended from the 4chan "tits or gtfo" mindset. Women who are obviously good at making video games should be allowed to make video games however they please. Here we get to another blanket thing I can lay out: you seriously think that we should vet and prove 4chan posts are legitimate? And also the point of using your quote is that your statement is mostly representative of how Gamergate as a whole tries to defend itself from accusations of misogyny. Your post on RationalWiki was just a convenient example.
- "Bias" again. Boring. And the fact is that Gamergaters do go to Five Guys restaurants to meet up and laugh at the fact they're there solely because Eron used it in his blog. It's part of a long list of evidence that Gamergate (as a whole) is all about Zoe and supportive of Eron. Beyond the money Gamergaters on KIA have given him.
- You're complaining about the wording of a picture caption here. And picture itself is the exact opposite of your counterclaim that people can do anything in a hashtag when it is to show people in Gamergate who harass others don't use the hashtag at the same time.
- Yeah, Eron Gjoni was an evil asshole from the start. He's said that he tried to go on another date with her just to gather more material for TheZoePost and on that date he apparently physically assaulted her. That's covered here.
- Bias again.
- Also your "monolithic" quip is only really proving what we've said about how Gamergaters see accusations that Gamergate is responsible for harassment.
- Your next complaint is that we don't cite the studies right before we actually do so let's go onto your counter claims about the studies.
- Complaining that the data isn't conclusive because the study in question is old doesn't really do much for your case and we actually do explain why the inconclusive nature of the "neutral" results in detail so another failure for you there.
- Yes, WAM!'s sample size was small we get it. They did the best they could with the minimal data. The small sample size is still damning for Gamergate regardless. Also I see you don't bother to try to debunk Gamergate's bad statistical rebuttal with the 0.66% thing so good on you for that.
- The point about the rebuttal of "false flag" claims against Quinn and Fish is that they're garbage and we shouldn't really need to try to explain why. You're demanding evidence of absence here. Also the explanation of the tumblr post by email feature (which references Zennistrad's tumblr post so stop throwing out the source based on that feature alone) is the best we can do to give a counter claim that goes "it's really stupid to insist that they faked the hack because her tumblr was still secure when the hacks included her email address book".
- We're not citing Roosh V's shitty blog that attacks Sarkeesian because AFAIK it contains dox material. Also, the claims that follow in this section are rebuttals of the various claims made by Gamergaters to insist that Anita Sarkeesian somehow faked all the attack tweets. Most of these statements were made by Zennistrad who did his own investigation into how the Twitter search feature worked to give these results. And his rebuttal of one person's really weird assumptions of her sexual fantasies. The fact it's sourced to his tumblr isn't reason to throw it out.
- The section on game developers is pretty much there to show that all the people who came out in support of Gamergate and call themselves game developers are assholes or have axes to grind and Gamergate was the perfect army to dictate. With several of these people, there's not going to be news exposes on them because they are nobodies in the industry (like Villena and Desborough who isn't a video game dev to begin with). Your complaints that Tumblr and Storify are cited are baseless. As is the complaint that we got Huniepop's game mechanics wrong. Also you continue to drop "bias this" and "bias that". Chmielarz's opinions are garbage. I don't know why Nichegamer isn't linked. Perhaps when I wrote that up months ago I didn't bother because anyone can find the article in question fairly easily. But the interview itself isn't being cited. It's just being mentioned so I don't personally think a citation is needed there. Yes, we're linking to Quinn's Twitter post of Brad Wardell asking someone who drew the comic to work for him because the comic itself is gone AFAIK. This tweet still exists though. The point about mentioning both Michael Lawson and Jason Truman's political leanings is that it's telling of Gamergate as a whole, and also it's bullshit for them to talk about an industry they personally haven't been involved in in several years. And, as I said at the beginning of this, the fact is that all these people have had critically panned games or they're assholes or they're reactionaries. Which is why they're supporting Gamergate.
- And your complaints that "not all anti-GG are angels" are really pointless.
- To finish out part 2 (apparently) changes to SkullGirls and Street Fighter V are not censorship. There was no outside pressure on either Lab Zero or Capcom to make these changes. They decided on these things internally. That's not censorship. Even if the developers decided to do this based on reviews of the games that mentioned these things, it's still not censorship. It's their own creative decision.
- Now onto part 3, you start off with multiple demands for citations in the middle of a quotation that makes up the "claim" part of an entry. Not exactly a good counter claim.
- So it's "minimize harm" and not "do no harm", a simple mistake. It's still ethical for Kotaku et al. to not have reported on The Zoe Post because it's an unfair invasion of the privacy of two people, one of whom decided to go public in order to attack the other.
- "Bias" again.
- We're extrapolating here to point out the fact that the New York Times and the BBC are not part of an SJW conspiracy against Gamergate. And Gjoni is 100% wrong and Quinn is 100% right. He's still trying to go after her a year and a half later. She's trying to get away from him. Now who's the abuser here?
- The PoliticalCompass tests are biased in favor of giving a particular result. Your complaints that we link to /r/BadSocialScience are baseless, considering you've linked to lolcow.wiki earlier. Further points on this are Gamergate's perception of what constitutes "authoritarianism" is hypocritical of their own behavior to impose their personal politics on others by trying to silence anyone lse that has a differing opinion. The fact they think "SJWs" are doing this to them is indeed projection. And your complaints that people who have tried to investigate Gamergate did not find anything counter to the claims as not being "the whole picture" are disingenuous at best. The fact is that Gamergate overall has rightwing and particularly reactionary tendencies. You (and Aneris and Husky Harlot) can claim anything about your own personal political stances, but that doesn't respresent the general behavior of Gamergate as a whole. Gamergate (and their ilk) is why "cuckservative" has come into play after all.
- Anti-feminism is a ridiculous stance to take because it never takes the form of any actual criticisms of feminism but rather makes strawmen attacks on it as a whole. This is why we have Aneris constantly parroting "regressive left". Also, there's no need to cite that CHS is a paid speaker for AEI on this page when it's covered on others; same for Cathy Young and Reason. "Bias" again.
- I like how you go on and on about how Joshua Goldberg played both sides which is exactly what the rebuttal goes into detail of how that's factually wrong. He made up the "Tanya Cohen" persona to attack feminism and anti-hate speech ideologies. It was intentionally divisive to be yet another thing to bolster his own personal politics (anti-feminism, free speech absolutism). And Brianna Wu wasn't fooled by him. So many of the entries you want sources for are covered elsewhere. There is no requirement that every sentence have a citation when paragraphs as a whole are cited. Also, just because he was found incompetent doesn't mean he's not guilty. Popehat Ken pointed out that it just means he's going to undergo psychiatric care until he's fit to stand trial.
- "Anti-Gamergate" is a bogeyman made up by Gamergate to enforce their persecution complex (like a cult would) and apply the balance fallacy in their favor. As much as you claim that this page makes Gamergate as a monolithic entity when it isn't, you and everyone else in Gamergate makes this exact same fallacious claim about their ideological opponents. /r/GamerGhazi existing is not evidence of anything either. There is no organization within opposition to Gamergate to the same extent that there is organization within Gamergate, which are again all things laid out in the sections you haven't covered yet, namely List of Gamergate claims#Anti-Gamergate is a unified counter-movement.
- There's no point in Gamergaters repeating Zoe Quinn's legal name in court documents when they know she's Zoe Quinn. They can just use "Zoe Quinn". They found her real name without the court's help though. It's therefore completely bullshit behavior and just going "haha I know your real name" to repeat it ad infinitum.
- Part 4 now. Good thing you're agreeing with us that Gamergate's indulgence behavior with charities is bullshit.
- We're not linking to Breitbart because they're factually wrong on so many things (and disingenuous about it at that) and also so many of their articles include dox on people.
- TFYC itself is not a charity, but Gamergaters claim they are. That's the point there. To your complaints about screencaps etc., we are providing primary sources here. Half the time you complain that the primary sources aren't provided. Make up your mind. But now we're back to "bias" because it's a storify by Zoe Quinn. The sales figures on Afterlife Empire are elsewhere on RationalWiki, as this is cited elsewhere. No one bought the game. No one owns the game outside of the indiegogo backers. No one plays the game.
- Onto the Vivian James section, you're complaining that we open up with a joke quote from /r/GamerGhazi. This is a strawman on your part.
- It's not our fault the Gamergate Wiki got taken down. Next. More complaints about using primary sources. Next. "Biased". Next. Gamergaters have spent years harassing Sarkeesian and Quinn, long before they were ever called "Gamergaters" (the hatred towards Sarkeesian and Quinn didn't pop out of nowhere). Next. "Biased" again. Next. "Rule 34". Next.
- Now you're up to #NotYourShield, which is just mostly defense of /pol/, the place where people pretend to be neo-Nazis and where real neo-Nazis pretend to be not actually neo-Nazis to recruit the people claiming they are. This isn't trolling. Nor is participation in #BaltimoreLootCrew. It's lying about your own personal beliefs in order to feel better about others getting offended at what you say. "It's just a joke" is a poor excuse for being racist.
- Your demand for a claim that the media assumed Gamergate skewed straight white male is specious.
- The point is that #NotYourShield is an attempt at nullifying other people's personal opinions. We don't have to cite our own interpretation but it is somewhat based on what Bogleech has said about it all. I simply forgot to add this, but because it's Tumblr and he's "biased" you'll dismiss it like everything else that matches those definitions.
- Christina Hoff Sommers isn't a feminist. She's a female men's rights activist who says she's a feminist when all of her academic literature has been widely recognized as highly anti-feminist. She's the feminism equivalent of your racist grandma except she gets paid for it.
- I couldn't figure out how to properly cite a comment on this article because the software doesn't allow it for some reason. Also it's a dick move to actually link to that comment in the article itself because it features that person's name.
- Gamergate has nothing to do with the events at GAME_JAM and I only really included this entry as a dig against Wikipedia user Wnt who kept insisting this was something both Wikipedia and RationalWiki omitted in their coverage of Gamergate.
- We're back at Dan Olson again. I will refer you to my earlier blanket statements that the charges against him were dropped so he was never in the wrong despite your claims, and those of Gamergaters who reported him to the RCMP.
- Now in Part 5 you open up with complaints that we imply Breitbart is a reactionary tabloid rag that has many documented ethical breaches that we couldn't possibly get into any detail on this page without it being a copy of Breitbart.
- Forcing people to disclose meager Kickstarter donations is not ethics.
- You're complaining reviewers should say they're doing social critique. However, reviewers review a product on their own terms. If a reviewer feels it's important to point out something the game does wrong that isn't related to game mechanics, and refuses to point it out in the review due to outside pressure, they aren't doing their job very well. Likewise, if you wish for a review to focus on mechanics only, you can find a reviewer that does so instead of forcing your politics onto other people.
- Leigh Alexander's "Gamers are over" article wasn't for Gamers as a review. Kotaku is free to say whatever they want about Quiet's design and the excuse for it. Just because you think they should just stick to game mechanics doesn't mean they want to.
- The setting of The Witcher is not historical. It is a fantasy world that borrows from Polish/Slavic folklore. And in the setting there is a group that could at best represent Africa or the Middle East and as covered in List of Gamergate claims#Objectivity, we point out that the development team took the criticisms on Polygon to heart and released an expansion that included the non-white fantasy world humans that existed in the source material (look up Zerrikania).
- Depression Quest is still free and Nathan Grayson wasn't dating Zoe Quinn when he namedropped it at any point in his career. Therefore there was no conflict of interest.
- I can see a lot of part 5 is going to cover why you think people should disclose these things when we and everyone else outside of Gamergate realizes the futility and lack of any benefit in it.
- At the time of writing, hipsterwelfare.com was a redirect to patreon.com.
- It's now several months since the "as of going to press" thing was written. Last I checked, Lynn Walsh, president elect of the SPJ, is sitting on that "we're totally not Gamergate" panel at SXSW.
- We're back to the Jenn Frank thing. Yes, the disclosure was restored, because Frank asked the editors to put it back in because Gamergate was going for her head.
- Kotaku and Polygon making their ethics policies public isn't something Gamergate can claim seeing as Gamergate as a whole has written off both websites entirely because they don't cover Gamergate the way Gamergate wants.
- Gamergate giving people free background checks is wrong. The statements made on this article that concern Gamergaters' behavior is different.
- Again, we're sorry someone took down the Gamergate Wiki. But this is still just a quote and not important overall.
- William Usher isn't a whistleblower because there was nothing to blow the whistle on. RationalWiki's mocking of Conservapedia is a fine point to make, but this is ad hominem at the moment from you.
- That thing about the Forbes link is something we should look into.
- Your complaints about independent verification are really hypocritical. Kotaku were the ones independently verifying Pinsof's interview statements. So now you want infinitely recursive verification? This just seems like more of the whole anti-Kotaku slant GG has, particularly because you say "bias" again.
- Chloe Sagal did nothing criminal. As far as we're aware, someone else made a fradulent donation to her project, which led to its shut down and her suicide attempt. Pinsof should have never outed Sagal. Period. Your insistence that he was right is more telling of your own personal politics than trying to ensure that he followed SPJ's "Minimize Harm" tenet.
- Stop complaining about Tumblrs used as sources.
- The point of the "Objectivity" section is that Gamergate does not represent "most gamers". Just because Gamergaters want reviews to be devoid of social commentary doesn't mean they're right. And once more, Street Fighter V has not been subject to censorship of any kind. Capcom made a decision on their own. They were not forced by any external entity to act.
- Now we get to the meat of your partcipation in Gamergate and that's because you're anti-censorship and a video game developer who doesn't want to listen to social critique. It would have been better if you said this to start with because it does color a lot of your counter claims. People are going to criticize your game socially whether you want them to or not. Your reaction to this criticism will be how you grow as a developer and an artist (even if you don't consider your game a work of art to be critiqued).
- You're complaining about Kotaku and bias again after this.
- Tecmo Koei decided in August 2015 that they weren't planning on localizing DOAX3 for North America and Europe because of how poorly DOAX2 sold overall. Also it might have to do with the fact that Marie Rose is pedobait and they realized that that kind of content won't fly overseas. Mind you, that in your claim here, you completely ignore the fact that Tecmo called out their Facebook rep for saying something the company as a whole did not agree with. And a final thought here is that no one was ever talking about DOAX3 to scare Tecmo into not selling their game outside of Asia.
- You called Leigh Alexander a fascist. Nice. She wrote an editorial. A lot of the rest of your argument in this paragraph is a strawman because it doesn't bother to address the claims made about objectivity in journalism being about "finding the objective truth" and not "play out a balance fallacy".
- We can internally link to other pages that have citations so we don't have to repeat them. Intel's covered in further detail on the main Gamergate page.
- You're strawmanning again because Wilde's criticisms of the term "PC Master Race" having Nazi connotations has nothing to do with your defense of PC vs. console.
- Stop complaining that we're colluding with "the enemy". It's bad form. Really.
- We're not citing an instance of dogpiling.
- The FTC content is true but the sourcing needs work. I personally didn't write the entry though.
- Kotaku hasn't made any ethical breaches sorry.
- And now we're in argumentum ad Hitlerum territory.
- Gawker being unethical has no bearing on the ethics of Kotaku. Simply because both are owned by the same company doesn't mean both share the blame of one's horrible behavior considering the editor teams are different. Gamergate weaponizing hatred of Gawker to their advantage is disingenuous.
- You complain of a dead link which is because no one bothered to update the internal link from "Three right-wings don't make a left" to "The red pill rabbit hole" on Gamergate. This obviously needs to be fixed and it's a simple one. Also this is a direct reference to Gamergate's outlandish conspiracy theories that Brianna Wu is a trans woman as if it would even matter to what she has done. A conspiracy theory I discovered you're personally very fond of, Geth_N7.
- Anti-Gamergate isn't a thing. But I see you're going to spend looking at the rest of the section List of Gamergate claims#Anti-Gamergate is mean in your upcoming Part 6 and possibly 7.
- I think that covers all of your complaints. I'll surely enjoy reading the next parts to tell you how blatantly wrong you are about them, as well. So let it be known that the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.—Ryulong (talk) 09:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- You know, I can't leave well enough alone, and I've done my absolute best to stay away for a whole week, but Arcane, I must say, you've done a really terrible job of trying to do anything resembling a proper counter-claim to the statements made on this list. So I'm going to address them because your Gamergate evangelism is frankly offensive. And I apologize in advance if this looks like a gish gallop, but Arcane, you're the one posting these things in spurts on Medium.com and I shouldn't have to use another website to post rebuttals your claims.