Talk:Religion
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I started a section (and broke the main up into many sections), it needs to be fleshed out though. Especially with links to articles. '''[[user:human|<font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human</font>]]'''{{User:Human/sigtalk}} 14:20, 22 January 2008 (EST) | I started a section (and broke the main up into many sections), it needs to be fleshed out though. Especially with links to articles. '''[[user:human|<font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human</font>]]'''{{User:Human/sigtalk}} 14:20, 22 January 2008 (EST) | ||
| + | :Science-friendly religion? Are you kidding me? So maybe they have noticed that refuting science makes them look quite dumb. But they haven't stopped spouting their bullshit about gods and devils and angels floating around and crap like that. If that bullshit were true, they should be able to prove it. Which they are not. See Dawkins. Religion is still anti-science, and now that we know that science can explain everything, it's time to finally phase out those old superstitions. --[[User:Rational Thinker|Rational Thinker]] 15:21, 22 January 2008 (EST) | ||
Revision as of 20:21, 22 January 2008
Contents |
Disrespect
Redirecting Superstition to Religion is exactly that kind of idiocy that makes me disrespect RW almost as much as CP. Even your "liberal atheist" WP clearly distinguishes the two notions. This is not about refuting anti-science, this is simply the utter arrogance and disrespect of some who believe that there is nothing beyond science, towards those who seek answers in religion that science by definition cannot provide (e.g. the meaning or the purpose of our existence). If you believe that there is nothing beyond science, and that we're here "just because", fine. You don't need to share a belief to respect it. And I can very much understand opposing religious fundamentalists who deny the evidence and bend the truth to match their world view. But I find it simply disgusting how some people here drag all religious beliefs into the dirt (and this is just the most recent example I noticed). --87.8.235.16 16:19, 8 November 2007 (EST)
I believe that it was done as a joke (not by me) but what is religion if not superstition? Susan... purrrrrr ... 16:24, 8 November 2007 (EST)
"A belief, conception, act, or practice resulting from ignorance, unreasoning fear of the unknown or mysterious, morbid scrupulosity, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation" - if this is your opinion of religion, if have nothing more to say to you. (The quoted text is from Webster's definition of superstition.) --87.8.235.16 16:45, 8 November 2007 (EST)
I don't expect to hear from you again then. Susan... purrrrrr ... 17:10, 8 November 2007 (EST)
- How about a one sentence article: "Religion is a superstition that requires your money." Would that make you happier? And, it's "causality", damn it. Every time I see "causation" it makes me want to be sick. --Jeeves 17:27, 8 November 2007 (EST)
- I wrote it differently - it now contains a bit that's respectful religion, and one veiled stab. Thoughts? -- מְתֻרְגְּמָן וִיקִי שְׁלֹום!
I don't understand it, at all. But I'm probably a touch dense. Susan... purrrrrr ... 17:42, 8 November 2007 (EST)
- Our IP chides us saying: You don't need to share a belief to respect it.. I've always been a bit confused by this idea. I don't share beliefs with homeopathy - but am I expected to respect it because some people have a sincere belief in it? Why?--Bobbing up 01:27, 9 November 2007 (EST)
- I'm inclined to agree, in part. While I think it a Good Thing to respect people who have beliefs I should not be expected to respect the beliefs themselves. This would show itself by my not thinking less of people who hold to beliefs that I may find silly. I should then expect the same courtesy by not being belittled by random people who hold strong views on certain untestable ideas. CЯacke® 01:51, 9 November 2007 (EST)
Rational Thinker's edit
Edit under debate is:Religious dogma is today the primary obstacle towards a fully rational society based on science. Religionists have a record of oppressing the greatest minds of humanity, from Galileo to Darwin, in order to push their nefarious and destructive world view.
I agree with it and would vote to put it back in. --Edgerunner76 10:48, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I have a problem with "Religionists have a record of oppressing the greatest minds of humanity, from Galileo to Darwin, in order to push their nefarious and destructive world view." - Many "religionists," are, after all, among the greatest minds of humanity; many religions - think Islam in the Medieval era - have a history of fostering intellectual pursuit and scientific and rational discovery; and many progressive social movements (civil rights, liberation theology) had strong roots in religion - bringing into question the blanket statement that all religion is a "nefarious and destructive world view."PFoster 10:55, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Religion is anti-rational by definition. Maybe in ancient times some scientits used to pose as religionists, becuase the oppressive power of the church was so great that they had no choice. A rational religionist is an oxymoron. Either you follow dogma, or you follow your logical mind. You can't do both. --Rational Thinker 11:03, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I see what you mean. However, I would like to see the edit put back if it were reworder to put a narrower context of more modern fundamentalism. Oh, and I loved that the size of your edit to this page was 666. That's kinda funny. :) --Edgerunner76 11:04, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- How about "Some religions have a record of..."? "While some religions have at times fostered rational explorations of our world," before it? human
11:07, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- How about "Some religions have a record of..."? "While some religions have at times fostered rational explorations of our world," before it? human
- Hey Rational - have a friend who's a scientit. Great job to have. about your dig at "ancient times" - what, history doesn't matter anymore? And the rest of that sentence barely makes sense: Are you trying to say that, in the example I gave of Islamic support of rational and scientific inquiry, people were claiming to be Muslims when they weren't? Do you have evidence for this? PFoster 11:08, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- C'mon, it's just a matter of rational thought (d'oh): religion says the magic man in the sky is doing it. Science says nature is doing it. One of them must be wrong. So if you do science, you contradict religion by definition. Thus, if you have a self-proclaimed religionist doing science, it's clear that he is faking it for his own benefit, or maybe to save his life (Galileo anyone?). Would you rather be burnt at the stake or say aloud "suuuuuuuuure I believe in Santa Claws!!!" Of course you can try to obfuscate this fact with clever wordisms, but that's how it is. --Rational Thinker 11:19, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- You're taking too narrow of a view of religion. They aren't all "man in the sky" religions. Anyway, we try to keep our "attacks" more focused - IOW, an article on Falwell or Robertson might call for some serious butt reaming, but one on religion in general has to keep in mind all religious movements. human
11:22, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- So which religious movements come without the "magic man in the sky" attached? Buddhism? Define "religion" properly, and Buddhism drops out anyway. What are we left with -- some minority lunatic sects waiting for some magic spaceship to rescue them, and more crap of that sort. Is that more rational than magic man? --Rational Thinker 11:33, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- It seems clear that religion which is based on faith cannot claim to be rational in the same way as science which is based on evidence.--Bobbing up 11:21, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- It's not just "clever wordism" - it's WHAT HAPPENED. Look, it would be an easy world to live in if everything were black-and-white, cut-and-dry, uncomplicated and straightforward. But the world isn't like that - it's complex and contradictory, and that's why your blanket statements are the antithesis of the "rationality" you so proudly attempt to embrace.PFoster 11:23, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- If we're going to to go with rationalism then that rather excludes religion.--Bobbing up 11:29, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- It's not just "clever wordism" - it's WHAT HAPPENED. Look, it would be an easy world to live in if everything were black-and-white, cut-and-dry, uncomplicated and straightforward. But the world isn't like that - it's complex and contradictory, and that's why your blanket statements are the antithesis of the "rationality" you so proudly attempt to embrace.PFoster 11:23, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I find this particularly ironic given RT's assertion that ALL religionists have ALWAYS decried ALL attempts at rationality. PFoster 11:33, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- He was excommunicated -- sort of proving my point, he was evidently not a loyal religionist. --Rational Thinker 11:40, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- "Ockham was excommunicated for leaving Avignon, but his philosophy was never officially condemned." - also, he was excommunicated over questions of a theological nature, not over his work on logic or science. Nice try, kid. PFoster 12:17, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Wait wait wait, he was excommunicated over THEOLOGICAL stuff, and that makes him a true religionist? Huh? Logic, anyone? How about you accept the evidence: he was faking it, and he was bad at it, and that's why they kicked him out! Can it be more obvious than that??!! --Rational Thinker 12:24, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Having a dispute with church hierarchy does not mean that he didn't have faith or religion or accept the great majority of church dogma. I'm not arguing that the church is blameless, I'm arguing that religion - and not just the Catholic Church - has a relationship to rational and scientific inquiry that is more complex that your Manichean view of the question - and history bears out that I am right and you are wrong.PFoster 12:31, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Let's summarize: You dig out a guy who's been dead and buried for more than half a millennium (not so many good examples readily available, huh?). You notice that he had not completely given up religion -- heck, that was centuries before Galileo, they didn't have a clue back then! How could you expect them not to say "huh... well God did it" about all those things they didn't know yet?! And that's your example of the rational and scientific attitude of religionists? And then you top it off by calling my views Manichean... wow... just wow. --Rational Thinker 12:50, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Let's summarize: you try to sum up centuries of the histories of science, religion and philosophy into one snarky edit that bears no relation to the complexity of those histories, and try to tell me that I am "the rational and scientific attitude of religionists" when I've made it clear that all I'm trying to do is throw some of the complexity back into the mix, and YOU'RE the "rational" one? Goatspeed. PFoster 12:54, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- "Ockham was excommunicated for leaving Avignon, but his philosophy was never officially condemned." - also, he was excommunicated over questions of a theological nature, not over his work on logic or science. Nice try, kid. PFoster 12:17, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- He was excommunicated -- sort of proving my point, he was evidently not a loyal religionist. --Rational Thinker 11:40, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- You're taking too narrow of a view of religion. They aren't all "man in the sky" religions. Anyway, we try to keep our "attacks" more focused - IOW, an article on Falwell or Robertson might call for some serious butt reaming, but one on religion in general has to keep in mind all religious movements. human
- C'mon, it's just a matter of rational thought (d'oh): religion says the magic man in the sky is doing it. Science says nature is doing it. One of them must be wrong. So if you do science, you contradict religion by definition. Thus, if you have a self-proclaimed religionist doing science, it's clear that he is faking it for his own benefit, or maybe to save his life (Galileo anyone?). Would you rather be burnt at the stake or say aloud "suuuuuuuuure I believe in Santa Claws!!!" Of course you can try to obfuscate this fact with clever wordisms, but that's how it is. --Rational Thinker 11:19, 22 January 2008 (EST)
back on topic
Suggested wording: "While some religions have at times fostered rational explorations of our world, others have a record of suppressing science in one form or another. Fundamentalist religious dogma and its opposition to rationalism is today the primary obstacle in the way of societies' advancing and improving through a strong emphasis on observation of real outcomes." human
12:14, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I for one remain unconvinced that A) fundamentalist dogma is anywhere near 'a', let alone 'the', primary obstacle to societal advancement; and B) that a society based exclusively on scientific rationality would be all that reasonable or appealing. Thinking of Hume's "servant of the passions" and all that. Also, User:Rational Thinker seriously needs to get a clue. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 12:50, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- OK, 'A' is debateable, and I almost went with "arguably one of". And in 'B', the science thing I axed, because it seemed 1984-creepy to me. That why I said "a strong emphasis on observation of real outcomes" - as opposed to faith-based attitudes. human
13:01, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I like Human's first sentence. But, while I have a negative view or religion and its impact, I have to concur that it's unlikely to be the fundamental obstacle in all societies. I'm not sure that Human's version says society would be better if were only based on science though. --Bobbing up 13:05, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- How about just simply adding something along the lines of religions taking a reactionary position as science began to attempt to answer questions for which the religions had already "answered"? --Edgerunner76 13:07, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- How about making it as specific as possible and pointing to specific incidences (like the YEC/evolution/ID fiasco) that names which religions, which religious figures, etc have attacked which elements of scientific inquiry in which ways without making inaccurate blanket assertions. I mean, this site is full of solid arguments like that anyways, right? PFoster 13:12, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- You mean a separate section something like "Religions failed attempts at science" or something like that?--Bobbing up 13:16, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Actually, the more I think about it, the more i think the best way would be to have a header like "Religion and Science" and under that, links to articles we alreqady have that discuss the questions raised above.PFoster 13:18, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I think that would be a good approach, yes. human
14:12, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I think that would be a good approach, yes. human
- Aye. Generally speaking, it would be a considerable improvement if people would phrase their criticisms as "[individual] or [organization] says..." instead or "Christianity says...". Christianity actually says very little, and the generalizations tend towards intellectual lazyness. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 14:00, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Well, some people here do take our mission as encouragement to go overboard with their "religion/CP/conservatism is teh evol" thing. We constantly have to rein each other in and keep things fair and balanced ;) human
14:12, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Well, some people here do take our mission as encouragement to go overboard with their "religion/CP/conservatism is teh evol" thing. We constantly have to rein each other in and keep things fair and balanced ;) human
- How about making it as specific as possible and pointing to specific incidences (like the YEC/evolution/ID fiasco) that names which religions, which religious figures, etc have attacked which elements of scientific inquiry in which ways without making inaccurate blanket assertions. I mean, this site is full of solid arguments like that anyways, right? PFoster 13:12, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- How about just simply adding something along the lines of religions taking a reactionary position as science began to attempt to answer questions for which the religions had already "answered"? --Edgerunner76 13:07, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- I like Human's first sentence. But, while I have a negative view or religion and its impact, I have to concur that it's unlikely to be the fundamental obstacle in all societies. I'm not sure that Human's version says society would be better if were only based on science though. --Bobbing up 13:05, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- OK, 'A' is debateable, and I almost went with "arguably one of". And in 'B', the science thing I axed, because it seemed 1984-creepy to me. That why I said "a strong emphasis on observation of real outcomes" - as opposed to faith-based attitudes. human
'C'mon, it's just a matter of rational thought (d'oh): religion says the magic man in the sky is doing it. Science says nature is doing it. One of them must be wrong. So if you do science, you contradict religion by definition. Thus, if you have a self-proclaimed religionist doing science, it's clear that he is faking it for his own benefit, or maybe to save his life (Galileo anyone?). Would you rather be burnt at the stake or say aloud "suuuuuuuuure I believe in Santa Claws!!!" Of course you can try to obfuscate this fact with clever wordisms, but that's how it is. --Rational Thinker 11:19, 22 January 2008 (EST)'
Lulz, this is like a gallery of argumentative fallacies.
C'mon, it's just a matter of rational thought (d'oh): religion says the magic man in the sky is doing it.
Strawman.
Science says nature is doing it. One of them must be wrong.
False dichotomy.
So if you do science, you contradict religion by definition.
Thus, if you have a self-proclaimed religionist doing science, it's clear that he is faking it for his own benefit
Ad hominem.
or maybe to save his life (Galileo anyone?). Would you rather be burnt at the stake or say aloud "suuuuuuuuure I believe in Santa Claws!!!"
Strawman, appeal to contempt.
Of course you can try to obfuscate this fact with clever wordisms, but that's how it is. --Rational Thinker 11:19, 22 January 2008 (EST)
Occupatio.
Heh. Rational. --מְתֻרְגְּמָן שְׁלֹום
Religion and science
I started a section (and broke the main up into many sections), it needs to be fleshed out though. Especially with links to articles. human
14:20, 22 January 2008 (EST)
- Science-friendly religion? Are you kidding me? So maybe they have noticed that refuting science makes them look quite dumb. But they haven't stopped spouting their bullshit about gods and devils and angels floating around and crap like that. If that bullshit were true, they should be able to prove it. Which they are not. See Dawkins. Religion is still anti-science, and now that we know that science can explain everything, it's time to finally phase out those old superstitions. --Rational Thinker 15:21, 22 January 2008 (EST)