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The [/w/index.php?title=Forum:Use_liquid_threads_in_the_forum%3F&offset=20101122084844&lqt_mustshow=197 highlighted comment] was created in this revision.

So far I have been finding it bit clunky, but can we use liquid threads on the forums to make them more forum like? - π 23:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

    23:37, 14 November 2010

    Is this the hideous new interface planned for the forums?

      Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX23:53, 14 November 2010

      No, this is a hideous new interface available with MediaWiki 1.16. I was wondering whether we should use it on the forums.

        - π23:55, 14 November 2010
         

        Is horrid. But they always say that about new things. (It's still horrid)

          SusanG Toast23:56, 14 November 2010

          I do like that you can reply to people at levels though.

            - π23:57, 14 November 2010

            I hate it. This is a Wiki; whatever happened to signing your posts with four tildes and actually having to hit "reload" to see replies?

              Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX23:59, 14 November 2010

              You have to reload to see replies now. At least now you can reload just the thread and not the whole page

                - π00:02, 15 November 2010
                 

                Sorry I misread your reply.

                  - π00:07, 15 November 2010
                   

                  You can reply at any level in wiki-lang too, just make the indent appropriate. I do it all the time. ħumanUser talk:Human 17:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

                    ħumanUser talk:Human17:46, 21 November 2010

                    Hmm, so I hit "reply" to a comment four above this. That comment did not end up where I wanted it to.

                    I am assuming that one advantage to this ghastly system is that it avoids edit conflicts? I can't think of any others.

                      ħumanUser talk:Human17:48, 21 November 2010

                      ListenerX already replied to that same comment, and then there were two replies to that. Your comment comes after Listener's, but the two replies to his comment are inserted in there... it makes sense if you think about it.

                        -- Nx / talk17:53, 21 November 2010

                        Barely, yes. I see what it did. But that's not where I wanted my reply to post. ħumanUser talk:Human 17:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

                          ħumanUser talk:Human17:58, 21 November 2010
                           
                           

                          The point is that it's much easier with lqt.

                            -- Nx / talk17:48, 21 November 2010
                             
                             

                            It is ugly, but it's convenient. You can use it on your talk page if you want.

                              -- Nx / talk23:58, 14 November 2010

                              The convenience I like. Can we fix the ugly a bit, throw some colours on it?

                                - π00:00, 15 November 2010

                                I agree with the number. But I'm getting a 4chan vibe from this. so please don't change the saloon bar.

                                  TyrannisAn iron, yet caring fist00:03, 15 November 2010

                                  There is a principle in design: "KISS," short for "Keep It Simple, Stupid." Deviate from this principle and things start to become Byzantine in complexity. But if we must have this, could the background color of the boxes be changed to be the same as the page background?

                                    Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX00:16, 15 November 2010

                                    Using MediaWiki as a forum is not simple. You have to manually do indentation, manually sign your comments, you have to deal with unsigned comments, you have to deal with edit conflicts, and the database is littered with redundant data because with every comment the entire page is saved.

                                      -- Nx / talk00:17, 15 November 2010

                                      (ECx200000000) Hey. You would have edit conflicted me just then, so I am still going to complain about it.

                                        - π00:19, 15 November 2010

                                        Also, why do the latest replies get cut off when you reload the page, so that you have to click the link "Show X replies" every time?

                                          Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX00:24, 15 November 2010

                                          Because they didn't want people going off on tangents. You're supposed to reply to the first post, not the previous one.

                                            -- Nx / talk00:26, 15 November 2010

                                            How counter-intuitive is that? Smiley freakout.gif This is completely ruining the fun of conversation here. It is as bad as the user interface of Mac OS Classic.

                                              Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX00:34, 15 November 2010

                                              You have to keep in mind that this was designed for Wikipedia.

                                                -- Nx / talk00:36, 15 November 2010

                                                That place is SERIOUS BUSINESS, we want fun here.

                                                  - π00:37, 15 November 2010
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  Going off on tangents is what RW is for though!

                                                    ħumanUser talk:Human17:50, 21 November 2010
                                                     

                                                    I just replied to Nx' comment that says "Because they didn't want people going off on tangents." and I can't even find my reply.

                                                      ħumanUser talk:Human17:51, 21 November 2010

                                                      It's here.

                                                        -- Nx / talk17:52, 21 November 2010
                                                         
                                                         

                                                        That can be changed - I think. Comment tower?

                                                          - π00:26, 15 November 2010
                                                           

                                                          You can change it in preferences, just set a high enough value.

                                                            -- Nx / talk00:45, 15 November 2010
                                                             
                                                             
                                                             

                                                            This is fairly simple. You see a comment you wish to reply too. You click reply and you type in the box.

                                                              - π00:18, 15 November 2010

                                                              On the other hand, with MediaWiki you could easily cut entire conversations to different pages, interleave your replies when necessary, etc. Also, you were forced to read any new posts to a conversation before you posted your own because of the edit conflicts.

                                                                Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX00:22, 15 November 2010
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 

                                                                So do we like this idea or not?

                                                                  - π12:05, 16 November 2010

                                                                  I think the consensus is: yes, if you change the colors.

                                                                    TyrannisAn iron, yet caring fist12:14, 16 November 2010

                                                                    What kind of consensus? There has been serious dissent (and I would like to be counted among the dissenters), and this is actually a very major change to the site's UI. It'll need a lot more than a couple of people's indifference to allow it through.

                                                                      Cubic educated Hoover!18:06, 21 November 2010
                                                                       

                                                                      meh.

                                                                        Occasionaluse (talk)13:50, 16 November 2010
                                                                         

                                                                        Smiley freakout.gif NO! NO! NO! (But if they are to be used, the background color should be changed to be the same as the background color of the page.)

                                                                          Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX23:43, 16 November 2010
                                                                           

                                                                          It is awful. I don't care what it looks like, I can't even follow this conversation, and my comments are ending up in places I don't expect them to.

                                                                          The nice thing about using the wiki-syntax for our forums is it is the same as our talk pages and articles - ie, a new user only has to learn one way to have a conversation here.

                                                                            ħumanUser talk:Human17:52, 21 November 2010

                                                                            The problem is that they have to learn how to have a conversation. Let's face it, MediaWiki is not exactly ideal for conversations.

                                                                              -- Nx / talk17:55, 21 November 2010

                                                                              Neither is this. ħumanUser talk:Human 18:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

                                                                                ħumanUser talk:Human18:00, 21 November 2010

                                                                                Let's see, all you have to do is click reply, type something and click save. No having to figure out where to insert your comment, how many colons it needs, having to remember to sign your posts, and no edit conflicts.

                                                                                  -- Nx / talk18:02, 21 November 2010

                                                                                  I dispute the first point, as one has to scroll up and down the page trying to find out which reply button to click. This is harder than typing one more colon than on the last post, or typing four tildes at the end of the post, or even dealing with an edit conflict.

                                                                                    Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX18:13, 21 November 2010

                                                                                    There needs to be a big post new comment button at the bottom of a thread, but otherwise, don't tell me it's harder to find the appropriate reply button than to figure out where to put your comment on a wiki talk page, assuming you're not replying at the bottom.

                                                                                      -- Nx / talk18:38, 21 November 2010

                                                                                      It is; for the latter, you just have to click "edit" and then grep the text for the post you want to put yours after. Here, because of the new rule about how "you're supposed to reply to the first post, not the previous one" (a remark of yours which, thanks to this new interface, I cannot diff-link to; another reason we should not adopt this, lest we give the Conservapedians ideas), you have to scroll up and down until you find the correct "first post."

                                                                                        Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX18:45, 21 November 2010

                                                                                        Also, why do I have to hunt up and down the page and click an "Update" link before I am able to see my own posts?

                                                                                          Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX18:46, 21 November 2010

                                                                                          Probably a bug.

                                                                                            -- Nx / talk18:50, 21 November 2010

                                                                                            So this is, by your own admission, buggy? That would rule it out for site-wide use immediately.

                                                                                              Cubic educated Hoover!20:55, 21 November 2010

                                                                                              Yes, since it's alpha quality software. I have never denied that. I may have been too optimistic about the timeframe of LQT's maturation before, but right now the only reason it's installed at all is that I've managed to fix rollback on comments. Also, changing every talk page to lqt would be a huge job, we'd have to archive and clean up every talk page.

                                                                                              Right now, it's just here for testing, and if you like it you can enable it on your talk page.

                                                                                                -- Nx / talk21:03, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                Right, so that rules the issue in question moot; alpha quality software shouldn't be used as widely as was proposed in any case.

                                                                                                  Cubic educated Hoover!21:46, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                  Tell that to translatewiki. Anyway, I wasn't the one who started this page, so you're barking up the wrong tree

                                                                                                    -- Nx / talk21:48, 21 November 2010
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    That's why I said it needs a post new comment button at the bottom.

                                                                                                    As for difflinks - each comment is actually a separate page. In the "More" dropdown menu you'll find a "link to" button, which will take you to the comment page: Thread:Forum:Use liquid threads in the forum?/Ditto/reply_(18)

                                                                                                      -- Nx / talk18:50, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                      What would be nice is a quote feature like most phpBB have.

                                                                                                        - π03:22, 22 November 2010
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        But this has the added benefit of being incredibly fugly, in addition to being terrible at conversations.

                                                                                                        Reminds me a bit of LiveJournal, honestly.

                                                                                                          Kels (talk)18:04, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                          I don't know, have any of you guys actually used VB or phpBB at all? It's just the same thing but bunged onto MediaWiki. If we used it in the forum space, it would be exactly the same and no one complains about usability issues with proper forum software.

                                                                                                            Scarlet A.pngpostate20:58, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                            Well, I actually do have issues with "proper forum software", since it is also full of worthless clutter which just makes conversations less easy to follow.

                                                                                                              Cubic educated Hoover!21:14, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                              Then suggest a better way of doing it. As it stands, the talk page way of indenting, missing replies, fucking up addressing the right people and generating edit conflicts is a right pain in the ass.

                                                                                                                Scarlet A.pngpostate21:34, 21 November 2010
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                I don't like this. It's not intuitive, even for people used to forums. Things posted as a "reply" don't appear next to comment their replying to, & stacks of comments are hidden, only appearing when you click on "show 14 replies". It's not clear why some comments are tucked away like this & others aren't, or what you can do to make sure your comment remains on the page. This makes it particularly badly suited to what we're trying to do here: gauge the opinions of a wide selection of users, since so many people's comments are going to fall into one of these pockets of invisibility.

                                                                                                                  It place replies a level under the one you are replying to, in chronological order, like Wordpress blogs. I have it cranked up so that I can see all the replies at once and let me tell you the load time is unbearable. This software is still alpha, which means that the developers still have not settled on the features to be included and there are no plans to use this sitewide - I just wanted to test it in terms of a forum discussion and as the messaging system on my userpage.

                                                                                                                    - π23:25, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                                    How do you get it "cranked up"?

                                                                                                                      Go to my preferences and change your settings for Threaded discussions.

                                                                                                                        - π01:59, 22 November 2010
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        For instance, this should appear under Pi's comment as I'm second. It would save an edit conflict. But considering this is an experimental extension rather than a full fledged install of VB or similar, it's not bad.

                                                                                                                        The comments should appear expanded up until the newest one under "new messages" which highlights new replies. The ones tucked away are side-tracked threads without new replies. If someone makes a similar reply under the normal talk page system they're equally likely to be missed. Under the usual way of doing it with talk pages, the intuitive thing is to scroll to the bottom of a section - so if someone's indent etiquette says to post a direct reply in the middle of the discussion, you'll miss it unless you were lucky enough to catch it on recent changes.

                                                                                                                          Scarlet A.pngpostate23:37, 21 November 2010

                                                                                                                          Fuck, I just wanted to ask "WHERE DO I ASK TO GET THE "YOU HAVE NEW MESSAGES" THING REMOVED FROM MY WATCHLIST?" but I see no way to make a new section or such. Please kill this until it actually works...

                                                                                                                            ħumanUser talk:Human03:56, 22 November 2010

                                                                                                                            At the top where it says, start a new discussion above all the threads.

                                                                                                                              - π03:59, 22 November 2010
                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              It's crap, face it.

                                                                                                                                ħumanUser talk:Human03:57, 22 November 2010
                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                I do like the idea of folding away old comments by default, but doesn't the new message thing do something similar to that any way? It is had for me to tell because I have set the folding default high enough that I don't get folding.

                                                                                                                                  - π04:22, 22 November 2010

                                                                                                                                  "There are new messages for you." Where?

                                                                                                                                  This format FUCKING SUCKS ADMIT IT.

                                                                                                                                  Christ, where am I supposed to look in this pile of shit for the "new messages for you"? I have a fucking talk page for "new messages for me". I also have a watchlist I use. This structure needs to DIE a quick death. Because every time I get the "There are new messages for you." I will come here and say this, since I can't find those delightful "new messages" that are supposedly "for me"

                                                                                                                                  KILL THIS NOW.

                                                                                                                                    ħumanUser talk:Human05:25, 22 November 2010

                                                                                                                                    And I think the new messages page is a great idea, I can see all the new replies to threads I'm following in one place, conveniently highlighted, instead of having to go through Recent Changes (or my watchlist) and spot the pages I'm interested in that have new messages. Going through new replies diff-by-diff is impractical because it is slow, and if I instead look at the whole thread it is hard to find the new comments, especially the ones that go off on a tangent and have been inserted in the middle of a discussion.

                                                                                                                                      -- Nx / talk07:50, 22 November 2010

                                                                                                                                      The only complaint I have is with the phrasing, I don't think messages is the right word. Maybe replies?

                                                                                                                                        - π08:19, 22 November 2010
                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                        Then click "mark all as read" and it will remove them without you having to bother yourself. Have you not noticed that it highlights the new replies with a box around them? Something that isn't done with new posts anywhere else unless you happen to like trawling through diffs or are lucky enough to catch it on recent changes.

                                                                                                                                        And again, I'm seeing nothing other than "it's crap" and a lot of capital letters.

                                                                                                                                        Seriously, am I the only person that has figured out how to use this without any hand holding? It's not difficult.

                                                                                                                                          Scarlet A.pngpostate08:48, 22 November 2010
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
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