Heteronormativity

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Revision as of 1 December 2011 at 18:33.
The [/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nebuchadnezzar&offset=20111201183320&lqt_mustshow=6684 highlighted comment] was created in this revision.

Good link by the way. Though I'm often very concerned when this sort of stuff seems to attack "heteronormative" ideas. Fair enough that we shouldn't enforce them and pressurise people into conforming (this being no different to religious freedom or any other intellectual freedom) but often it comes across that if you're heterosexual and gis-gendered you're automatically Evil And Responsible for All the Ills in the World Ever Because Your Very Existence Is Oppressive. In fact some of the literature really does come across like they're using "heteronormative" with the same spitting venom that you'll hear when "liberal" is used on Fox News.

    Scarlet A.pnggnostic14:16, 1 December 2011

    That is nothing new at all; both queer-theory and neo-conservatism differ from their common ideological ancestor only in the precise identity of the Born Evil and Oppressive crowd.

      Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX16:09, 1 December 2011

      Much if not most of feminism would see/has seen all things male as teh Big Bad Evil.

      I'm sure most blacks saw all whitey as "the man".

      When you are just starting to fight for your rights, the lack of rights are so systematic and endemic it is very literally "all of society" that is against you. Eventually, that changes of course... but it takes a while.

        Pink mowse.pngGodotAround, around, around, around, over, and under and through16:27, 1 December 2011

        Funny thing about that. When the feminists were just starting to fight, those were the first-wave feminists, who did not blame the Big Nasty Overclass for everything in quite that manner.

        I'm sure most blacks saw all whitey as "the man". An attitude that, fortunately for all of us, Martin Luther King, Jr. saw his way around.

          Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX16:41, 1 December 2011
           
           

          Why wouldn't it attack heteronormative ideas? Normative ideas are prescriptive standards, which is the same thing as enforcing and pressuring people into conforming.

            Nebuchadnezzar (talk)17:37, 1 December 2011

            Because I get this extra connotation that, being heterosexual and cis-gendered myself, it's all my fault. It's a hard one to shake off.

              Scarlet A.pngbomination17:42, 1 December 2011

              I mean, I should clarify that I really think that those who create prescriptive beliefs and enforce conformity are wrong, it's just... I just plain and simply can't shake off that feeling. I feel I was born on the wrong side of the sexuality dynamic for my opinion to matter. It must be what that "white guilt" thing feels like.

                Scarlet A.pngpathetic17:45, 1 December 2011
                 

                Er, I'm also het/cis (just not in the "right" way). There's a difference between acting it and holding it up as a standard or ideal. It's not like everyone is out baiting gays, trans people, etc.

                  Nebuchadnezzar (talk)17:58, 1 December 2011

                  Yeah, but here's the thing; why do I feel guilty about it? And why do I seem to perceive it as my fault regardless of the fact that I don't actually push heteronormacy?

                  So you have this group, called "allies". Okay, fair enough. That effectively then transforms LGBT into LGBTIQQAHGOITEAJADOKJHELPIMTRAPPEDINANABSURDITYNVOADVNOAK, or "anyone who isn't a homophobic bigot club". I get it. But the implication seems to be that unless I explicitly identify as "allies" I'm not one. As this system seems set up to say that by default you are indeed a homophobic bigot, because you don't identify as allies by default because you must identify as one. This seems backwards to me, as if it's requesting I identify as something that I don't do. It's the same issue I think I have with being told that I must identify as feminist because I support gender equality.

                    Scarlet A.pngpathetic18:06, 1 December 2011

                    The problem, as I see it, is failure to accept those who are not normal as full members of society – not the mere existence of a concept of normality.

                      Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX18:10, 1 December 2011

                      I like to solve both problems at the same time by simply not using the word "normal". Specifically, to what percentile are we talking is "normal" here? Exactly, so it doesn't carry much meaning without further clarification.

                      What meaning "normal" does carry is just the meaning people give to it, which is connotations associated with the word, i.e., "normal is good, not-normal is bad". Hence the need to either a) avoid it entirely or b) use it with more clarity.

                        Scarlet A.pngsshole18:15, 1 December 2011

                        "...as if it's requesting I identify as something that I don't do." That's a bit ironic coming from an atheist. But, yeah, the LGBTWTFBBQ umbrella grows bigger all the time (according to Wikipedia, I would be "queer" by some definitions, which is news to me). I think the lesson is not to take all these labels so seriously.

                          Nebuchadnezzar (talk)18:33, 1 December 2011
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
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