User talk:Abd
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::::What makes you think I am in the business of helping myself? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|<sup>i9</sup>]] 03:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | ::::What makes you think I am in the business of helping myself? [[User:Ace McWicked|Ace]][[User Talk:Ace McWicked|<sup>i9</sup>]] 03:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
:::::You aren't. That's obvious. Just sayin'. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 03:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::You aren't. That's obvious. Just sayin'. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 03:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
| + | :Mikal has a point. You've been pointing to Ace all day as if ''everything'' was his fault, but it takes two to tango and your continued poking of Ace here and at RWW has completely prevented what should have been a natural dying down of the argument. I told you to stop ''hours'' ago, and the fact that you haven't leads me to the conclusion that you are trolling and enjoying it. [[User:PeterL|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:PeterL/MW|Subsisting on honey]]</sup> 03:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 03:13, 21 October 2012
Contents |
Cutting through the Gordion knot
Why not just read it, so you can say "I have finished reading it and am therefore now equipped to offer a more well-informed decision than before"? Otherwise it just makes you look lazy. It's not all that difficult or long of a read.
As mentioned in the essay, I hate the nebulous terminology people use with regard to this issue. This is reflected too in court proceedings; you'll notice, page 12 of this PSIR speaks of "an ob[s]ession with sex-especially with girls (not women)". I believe the term "girls" (and, for that matter, "boys") is commonly used to describe even adults; e.g. in some sexual situations someone will say to a grown man, "Hey there, big boy." Therefore, to reach an assumption of pedophilia based on an expression of interest in "girls" is inappropriate because the term is simply too ambiguous. My interest in the topic currently under discussion is purely as a political activist.
Or mostly, anyway; although to describe in detail what I mean by "mostly" would be similar in level of complexity to explaining what Ford Prefect meant by referring to humans as "mostly harmless." In any event, this whole flap is another reminder of the importance of adhering to the mediawikianist philosophy. Sometimes one simply has to use software to find one's way around difficulties arising from the human factor. Tisane (talk) 05:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Improper block
read my comment again. I did not threaten anyone , simply asked what harm would it really do if a hypothetical happened. Same thing really as his essay. ;) Hamster (talk) 04:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I read your comment carefully. I know what I'm doing. Do not graphically describe harm to a user, "hypothetically." I'm not going to give you an example, but it was tempting. It is highly offensive, and Tisane did nothing like that. This is what your insanity leads you to. You think that you are justified because you think someone else did it. If I see you do that again, I'll do what I've never done, I'll take you to the coop. Not hysterically. I was about to ignore it, but realized I'd been resysopped, so I have no fucking excuse not to do something about it.
- If you think my block improper, an abuse of the obligations of a sysop, coop me. I'd love to be relieved of that bit. Now, go fuck yourself. Be nice, don't use a crowbar. It's very rude, and the damage can be permanent. I know, because I've had a TRUSP biopsy, and a crowbar might have been more pleasant, and might have done less damage. --Abd (talk) 04:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
section moved
to User talk:Abd/Temp talk. --Abd (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Relieved of duty
Thanks. Weaseloid promoted me, so I can take a rest here. However, if repeated graphic threats of physical violence to a user doesn't justify a block, what does? In any case, the autoblock, I think it was from Psygremlin, prevents me from editing for now. Notice: two users make absolutely disgusting threats, the first "hypothetical." I.e., "How about if I ... " This, legally, would be considered the same as without the "how about." The second actually threatened to track the object of the threat down to injure him. It's easy to find, reviewing contributions for Hamster (first threat) and Psygremlin (several threats).
People who tolerate that -- or do it -- are allowed the tools, people who don't are promoted. Again, that makes perfect sense. Bye. --Abd (talk) 17:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Sadly, no one on this site cares about graphic threats of physical violence like you describe. The culture of the site is that it is "no biggie". Which is sad, but it's hardly the only sad thing about this place. Zack Martin
20:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Get over yourselves. --Revolverman (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- A response which proves my point. Zack Martin
20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- It is connected to the site ethos, and is directly contrary to the stated site purpose, because "constructive dialog" is impossible with massive incivility. A certain level of "banter incivility" may not be harmful (though it may drive away professionals and other experts), and is common among adolescent and young adult males (especially), but this site does not evenly discriminate between that and hate speech and vicious verbal attack, including graphic threats of real-world violence, rape, etc. --Abd (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Are you still here? How many times have you said "Bye"? Have you nothing better to do than to just tell people you're going to leave but not actually do it? -- Seth Peck (talk) 21:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I stopped to work on other things, and I said "Bye." I came back. I never said I was not coming back. But right now I can't edit other than here (without messing with IP, etc.), because I was autoblocked by Psygremlin, and Weaseloid promoted me for being "trigger happy," and even though that was S T U P I D, I thanked him because of the salutary effect. I'm working on something. I'm sure you will LOVE it. You love rational discussion, right? --Abd (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Abd, please try again, according to the blocking page you aren't blocked any more. Zack Martin
21:17, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, thanks, but ... the autoblock would have to be lifted. I'd give you the IP but I can't be arsed. --Abd (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Your ban was reversed nearly right away, you overdramtic fuck. --Revolverman (talk) 21:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Ignorant asshole. I unblocked myself, but I neglected to undo the autoblock. So when I was desysopped, I cannot edit, until that expires or is lifted. Just sayin'. I look up right now, and the message says, as I write this, "This user is currently blocked." But I can edit my Talk page. That's fine for me right now. You guys can rave at each other in the coop. Enjoy. --Abd (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think I've removed the block on your IP, I hope. I'm a bit confused about how all this works. Try again, anyway. Zack Martin
21:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, that did it. You could also have resysopped, so I could do it myself (and I think sysops don't see this, they have the bypass-autoblock power). If you look at the history, what I did was mild compared to what others did, including Psygremlin, with no such response. I even announced the block where it would be seen and I did not desysop Psygremlin to prevent him from unblocking himself. I wanted to make sure I got his attention. This place is weird. On the other hand, never mind. I don't spend nearly as much time here when not opped. --Abd (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think I've removed the block on your IP, I hope. I'm a bit confused about how all this works. Try again, anyway. Zack Martin
- Ignorant asshole. I unblocked myself, but I neglected to undo the autoblock. So when I was desysopped, I cannot edit, until that expires or is lifted. Just sayin'. I look up right now, and the message says, as I write this, "This user is currently blocked." But I can edit my Talk page. That's fine for me right now. You guys can rave at each other in the coop. Enjoy. --Abd (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Abd, please try again, according to the blocking page you aren't blocked any more. Zack Martin
- I stopped to work on other things, and I said "Bye." I came back. I never said I was not coming back. But right now I can't edit other than here (without messing with IP, etc.), because I was autoblocked by Psygremlin, and Weaseloid promoted me for being "trigger happy," and even though that was S T U P I D, I thanked him because of the salutary effect. I'm working on something. I'm sure you will LOVE it. You love rational discussion, right? --Abd (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Are you still here? How many times have you said "Bye"? Have you nothing better to do than to just tell people you're going to leave but not actually do it? -- Seth Peck (talk) 21:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- It is connected to the site ethos, and is directly contrary to the stated site purpose, because "constructive dialog" is impossible with massive incivility. A certain level of "banter incivility" may not be harmful (though it may drive away professionals and other experts), and is common among adolescent and young adult males (especially), but this site does not evenly discriminate between that and hate speech and vicious verbal attack, including graphic threats of real-world violence, rape, etc. --Abd (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- A response which proves my point. Zack Martin
- Get over yourselves. --Revolverman (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Meta
metawikipedia:Meta:Requests_for_help_from_a_sysop_or_bureaucrat#Unblock_for_Abd – In case you weren't aware of the discussion. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 13:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Look, that block at meta was insane. However, beyond the initial unblock template -- denied because of "no change" -- I have not pursued remedies available to me, for a simple reason. I'm no longer an administrator on Wikiversity and have far less need to use meta processes. Aside from those activities, I was active on meta defending other users against being blocked and banned unfairly, and, in fact, the original request for my block came from a steward whose actions I had questioned. He clearly did not understand the comments, and filed a block request with diffs that did not support what he claimed. (He asserted I'd made a legal threat, far, far from my intention and actions.) But he was a steward, and meta admins aspire to make nice with stewards, and to become stewards.
- Only a few users, such as you, Michael, asked about the evidence. Like, what the hell had Abd actually done? Basically, since I had a history of challenging admin actions -- largely successfully, -- there were administrators waiting for the opportunity to block, and they took it. There is no sign of any independent admin, not involved before in some kind of dispute with me, looking at the evidence and confirming the block as legitimate.
- At the same time, other users who actually harassed people, sought for them to be banned, lied to the community, etc., have been unblocked, simply because a request was made. No, they remember, Michael. It is not about policy and reasons, it's about what they like and dislike.
- Did I do anything wrong? Perhaps, and from one point of view, obviously. But it was never specified. So I could not promise not to do it again! I have to guess at the reasons, which I do above.
- Thanks for trying, but I'm not taking the time to request unblock again. No change, remember? The last reason for denial. That's totally illegitimate, according to long-standing meta tradition, but these people, and way too much of the community, don't care.
- Blocks are supposed to be justified by a specific need to protect the community, and meta was long resistant to indef blocks. I'm not banned there, but might as well be, if an attempt to review is denied out-of-hand.
- You know that the substance is that I requested review of the block, and the unblock denial, with no response to the last part. Okay, I'll put up a minimal unblock request. You can do with it what you like, I actually don't care.
- Increasingly, en.wiki users came to dominate meta and to use problems at en.wiki to justify bans at meta. In my case, on en.wiki, the last straw for me was when my successful request for removal of lenr-canr.org from the meta global blacklist was used, on en.wiki, as a demonstration of writing too much. The meta request was brief and to-the-point. It was, however, opposed, with a series of spurious arguments from "respected users." Meta admins were about to accept those arguments, so it was necessary to put up the evidence. That always takes space, a single piece of evidence will only rarely carry the day. The result: my request was accepted, but an en.wiki admin looked at the meta request, and moving outside strong traditions, issued a topic ban at en.wiki on cold fusion, citing the meta discussion. I respected that ban, and clarified with the admin that I was allowed to mention cold fusion with users, on their talk pages. In hindsight, he did not actually approve that clarification, he ignored it. Later, I requested a lifting of the ban. Not only was that request denied a hearing by ArbComm, my contributions were reviewed and what I had considered allowed -- and that had been tolerated for many months-- was considered a violation, and my ArbComm request was also considered a violation, and I was blocked. At this point, I totally gave up on due process at Wikipedia. I used the opportunity to explore something I'd suggested long before as a way for banned users to cooperate with a wiki, establishing a path to return. This had actually been accepted for a time. I proved that it worked, both on en.wiki and then on Wikiversity, successfully resulting, on en.wv, in the unban of a user. With no resulting harm.
- So I used self-reversion, a process that creates no mess to clean up, that only works if other users see and bring back in the edits. That requires cooperation between a banned user and the rest of the community. It worked, by the way. But I was IP blocked, then range blocked, because of "ban violation." Not surprising. I documented all of this on wikiversity, it's still there, as part of a study on self-reversion. But en.wiki admins are not actually interested in the welfare of the wiki, they are, as a group, interested in their own power, and "a ban is a ban." No matter what benefits might result from some level of exception. They not only used wide range blocks, they set an edit filter to block any edit with "Abd" in it. That's because I was using "self-revert due to ban of Abd." Of course, once they did that, I stopped self-identifying and self-reverting. The filter caused substantial collateral damage. Abd is part of a common Muslim name (and that is my name, Abd ul-Rahman, but many other names have Abd in them.)
- They also started to use revision deletion to hide my edits, so that others would not be tempted to read them and revert them back in (or otherwise waste their time looking at them). That, then, led to an examination of this practice, which was rejected by consensus. That was part of my purpose. However, the rejection, as is common on Wikipedia, had an exception in it that any admin could drive a truck through. Still, the basic principle, that revision deletion isn't used to hide edits unless the material is truly offensive or illegal, was re-affirmed.
- I then created a sock puppet, the only one actually created without disclosure. That sock managed to coordinate consensus in a number of places -- violating the original topic ban. But successfully, and, for a time, the edits stood in spite of efforts to revert some of them as "being from a banned user." I probably prevented a Nobel Prize Winner from being blocked. (But I also communicated with him by email, and the main thing I did was to counter his impression of some conspiracy to repress the truth on Wikipedia. No, my friend, they are just stupid.) That sequence was interesting. At one time, checkuser could not be invoked without evidence. You could not just fish. However, in this case, an arb checkusered with no visible request. Increasingly, checkusers became prosecuting attorneys. That shift is part of an overall shift that took place there. When I started working on wikipedia, my views were often in the minority in discussions, initially. But I was very successful in getting results, because I knew how to negotiate consensus. Increasingly, though, those who did not like those results sought to ban me, from about 2008 on. Gradually, others stopped participating, and, when I've looked, many of these older users have left Wikipedia. Sometimes before leaving they try to speak out or remedy the problems and have been banned.
- There are many people who worked long and hard for Wikipedia who have been banned or left, mostly the latter. What remains are the dregs, plus bright-eyed newcomers who believe that policy is enforced, and the policies are generally great. As long as they don't personally run into the vicious exceptions, it can seem so for a long time. They want to believe that Wikipedia is the amazing, cooperative, collaborative community that it could have been. It still is that, sometimes and in some places. As long as you don't run into one of the cabals.
- I confronted the cabals, and successfully. That's what is missed. JzG was sanctioned, and William M. Connolley was desysopped. WMC has the distinction of having been called the leader of a cabal in newspaper sources. But when a cabal is confronted, and when the central decision-making process is not willing to look at the issues (which are quite different from who is bad and who violated policy), the cabal still has power, and can still use it. A "cabal" on a wiki, aside from possible off-wiki cooperation, is simply a group of users who mass in related discussions. It takes no specific coordination, and these users often think that they are the wiki. Since they have so many friends who agree with them, and, hey, look at all these discussions where they prevailed (and they would call any discussion where consensus was avoided against them, because of them showing up and arguing entirely opposed to evidence, a "confirmation" of their views). It's self-reinforcing.
- Allowing cabals to exercise power like that may be inevitable on wikis, but the remedy was available central process that requires deliberation and careful consideration of evidence. In my first ArbComm case, I made certain charges. The cabal screamed that these were made-up, and in the preceding RfC, two-thirds of those commenting, instead of commenting on the substance of the claim (JzG admin action while involved, with full evidence), voted to "ban Abd." So it went to ArbComm, and, I'd say, ArbComm might have sided with JzG, he was very popular -- in spite of a long history of gross incivility and reprimands -- which he ignored. What made the difference? *One arbitrator* actually independently compiled the *same evidence.* It was not at all ambiguous.
- Later leaks from the ArbComm mailing list showed that many Arbs wanted to ban me from the get-go, but not necessarily a majority, and they had no excuse. In the next case, excuses were generated, so, even though the basis of that case (WMC action while involved) was confirmed, I was also topic banned for a year and site-banned for three months, and they made up an entirely new sanction for me, never used before or since, the "MYOB ban." As proposed, I favored it, because it had a mentor exception. An arb actually volunteered to be my mentor. ArbComm told him that, no, he could not do that. But, of course, they did not say that publicly! That Arb, not long after, resigned, and privately told me it was because he'd received real-life, face-to-face, threats of violence against his family. Folks, what is underneath the facade can be very, very ugly. In some disputes on Wikipedia, there is a possibility of huge sums of special-interest money, with some evidence of actual involvement of that. Anyone who followed Wikipedia Review could see this -- if they are inclined to actually look at evidence. By the way, I did not encounter this problem. The cabal I confronted was later, more or less, confirmed by ArbComm in the Climate Change case. It could also be called the "anti-pseudoscience" cabal. -- thus a connection with RationalWiki, where rational consideration of pseudoskepticism is just about impossible. Truzzi got it and wrote about it, wrt the skeptic community.
- And what this all showed (in the Wikipedia RfC:JzG 3) was that a substantial local process, with substantial participation, maybe 40 people voting, could completely disregard evidence and vote based on knee-jerk impressions and what they liked and disliked.
- We just saw the same thing on RationalWiki. A decision was made based on claims that were *never* investigated, with a sober review of actual evidence. I noticed this way over twenty years ago, on the W.E.L.L. Even though, for the first time, seemingly revolutionary, the entire record of a discussion was readily available, people believed what they wanted to believe about what had happened, and this was *impervious* to evidence. Social phenomenon. In prior organizations, it was all vague, people could rationally argue about what actually happened, but, here, the *entire record* of interactions was available. Useless, because most people will not look at it. Much less compile that evidence.
- It's a lost cause, Michael. Thanks for trying, but I can't afford to waste more time with this. The foundations that would make the wikis actually work are missing. From time to time and place to place, I might work to set them up, but that is entirely vulnerable, on WMF wikis -- and here -- to forces that absolutely don't want the systems to work as designed and conceived. They want something else. --Abd (talk) 17:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Poking it with a stick
Hey. Why the fuck do you think blocking Ace hours and hours after anything fresh had happened was a good idea? That's a bitch move, Santa. Look, I don't agree with what Ace did this morning (my time), but poking it with a stick way after the fact does nobody no good. Think. Theory of Practice Haters gonna hate. 02:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- ToP, the block had nothing to do with this morning.
- The way I see it, if you unblock someone, you are responsible for what they do. But it often isn't seen that way.
- Ace has probably trashed his future here, my guess. It might have been stopped, if my blocks had been allowed to stand. I was pushing it with a second block.
- I wasn't "poking it with a stick." Ace was deliberately trolling, the same as he always does. It was explained. --Abd (talk) 02:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
.
You aren't
helping anything. stop it. --Mikal Harass Follow 02:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not taking any more sysop actions tonight. Mikal, you did not help. There was reason for what I did, attempting to prevent Ace from committing wiki-suicide. Enjoy the results of your thoughtless actions. --Abd (talk) 02:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to blame me, go ahead. I don't honestly like anything thats been going on since last night; from either side; but i sure as hell don't like one person just blocking people and unilaterally promoting others, and i only agreed with Ty's doing it because it helped end the back and forth from this morning, that is all. --Mikal Harass Follow 03:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- What the hell kinda person are you? I mean, jesus, what a weird freak. Acei9 02:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- That is so funny. I mean, this is Ace McWicked. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Ace, get some sleep. As so many have told you, you are not helping yourself. --Abd (talk) 02:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Mikal has a point. You've been pointing to Ace all day as if everything was his fault, but it takes two to tango and your continued poking of Ace here and at RWW has completely prevented what should have been a natural dying down of the argument. I told you to stop hours ago, and the fact that you haven't leads me to the conclusion that you are trolling and enjoying it. Peter Subsisting on honey 03:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)