User talk:Bob M
(→Shermer and social Darwinism) |
(→Shermer and social Darwinism) |
||
| Line 42: | Line 42: | ||
::I never said that. I claimed that Shermer is recycling the same arguments made by earlier thinkers applying natural selection to economics. [[User:Nebuchadnezzar|Nebuchadnezzar]] ([[User talk:Nebuchadnezzar|talk]]) 18:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | ::I never said that. I claimed that Shermer is recycling the same arguments made by earlier thinkers applying natural selection to economics. [[User:Nebuchadnezzar|Nebuchadnezzar]] ([[User talk:Nebuchadnezzar|talk]]) 18:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::OK, and Dawkins applied natural selection to society and especially to religion when he came up with memes. In fact it's obvious that natural selection does apply outside of biological spheres. But that's not the same as Social Darwinism. I'm not saying that Shermer isn't a Social Dawinist - I haven't read his book - but the simple fact of his applying Darwinian descriptions to social change doesn't make him one any more than it makes Dawkins one.--[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|<sup>"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."</sup>]] 20:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | :::OK, and Dawkins applied natural selection to society and especially to religion when he came up with memes. In fact it's obvious that natural selection does apply outside of biological spheres. But that's not the same as Social Darwinism. I'm not saying that Shermer isn't a Social Dawinist - I haven't read his book - but the simple fact of his applying Darwinian descriptions to social change doesn't make him one any more than it makes Dawkins one.--[[User:Bob_M|Bob]][[User_Talk:Bob_M|<sup>"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."</sup>]] 20:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
| + | ::::You continue to attack a straw man. I never said natural selection doesn't apply outside of biological evolution -- evolutionary algorithms are a good example of that. [[Meme#Memetics: Science, pseudoscience, or protoscience?|Memetics]] is also a good example of a faulty evolutionary analogy. However, my point is that Shermer is using the same reasoning as earlier social Darwinists by conflating the "invisible hand" (which is a misunderstanding of Smith anyway) with natural selection. [[User:Nebuchadnezzar|Nebuchadnezzar]] ([[User talk:Nebuchadnezzar|talk]]) 20:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 20:59, 16 February 2013
You have been smitten by a bunny in accordance with the community standards for... no real reason. Feel free to revert this odd edit.
This is where I keep some stuff and play about.
Hello and welcome to my talk page. Not being a smart chap I'll reply on this page to any comments on this page.--Bob_M (talk) 01:59, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
Contents |
Fitocracy
You're pretty fucking hardcore, old man. Props for that. Occasionaluse (talk) 23:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Howdy
Nice to see you back Bob, I thought you might have snuffed it.
ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.
19:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
- Nothing so dramatic! Just wanted to give it a break for a while and concentrate on other things. Anyway, thanks for saying "Hi". :-)--Bob"I thought this was supposed to be "Rational" Wiki?." 19:21, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hey Bob M. I am hardly around here these days either. It is pleasing to see what they have made of the place. --DamoHi 08:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Damo. Good to hear from you. Changes are certainly interesting. :-)--Bob"I thought this was supposed to be "Rational" Wiki?." 08:19, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hey Bob M. I am hardly around here these days either. It is pleasing to see what they have made of the place. --DamoHi 08:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi Bob
Yes I will continue the discussion with you on here at some point. The reason I have archived my page is becuase there seems to be trolls spamming my comments on theistic evolution on the skeptiko forum found here Link. Most users on skeptiko are self confessed creationists with no science education. I have debunked all creationists claims on this website (you can see my posts), it is absurd to lump me in with intelligent design. I am a staunch critic of creationism/ID which is clearly not science. Obviously the creationists got upset on the skeptiko forum that I exposed them on this article for the anti-science that they are skeptiko forum. There are also trolls on that website claiming I used to be a member on that website, they are utterly confused. For my real views on creationism see here, Me debunking creationism Forests (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Forests. I can't see anybody referencing your comments on your talk page on that link. And even if they were - so what? Presumably the couple of sentences you wrote about your belief in Theistic Evolution represented your real beliefs and you wouldn't mind them being read and indeed reposted. You also volunteered the information in the SB.
- In fact, I'm afraid that I simply don't understand your sentence: The reason I have archived my page is because there seems to be trolls spamming my comments on theistic evolution on the skeptiko forum found here Link.
- Apart from the fact that there seems to be no relevant reference on that link - what do you mean "spamming my comments"?
- Finally I've got to say that it's a bit odd to find someone who is so keen to be rational but who also believes in Theistic Evolution - and their own apparently mysterious personal interpretation of it to boot.--Bob"I thought this was supposed to be "Rational" Wiki?." 20:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- The "theistic evolutionist" section was quoted here. They are going through Forrest's contributions trying to match his identity against other forum users.--ZooGuard (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK. I see that now. Thanks. I'm still left thinking - "So what"? We as a site have nothing to hide. And even if we had it's been copied anyway. So archiving it now just looks silly.--Bob"I thought this was supposed to be "Rational" Wiki?." 20:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- The "theistic evolutionist" section was quoted here. They are going through Forrest's contributions trying to match his identity against other forum users.--ZooGuard (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Yo Bob
With respect to this link you were given, you're not missing much. Seems a bit New-Agey, a bit "oh look, consciousness... WOOOOOO!!!!!!... then... evolution... erm something-or-other". It's pretty vague.
d hominem
20:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I glanced at it at the time and came to the same conclusion. It certainly said nothing about Theistic evolution. But I didn't want to go down the route of arguing about what some random new age blog might or might not say. I was interested in whether or not Forests has some basis for his belief in theistic evolution.--Bob"I thought this was supposed to be "Rational" Wiki?." 20:27, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Shermer and social Darwinism
Shermer is not just a libertarian -- at least not anymore. He uses the same reasoning as past "laissez-faire social Darwinists" that capitalism and the "free" market employ natural selection to weed out the "unfit" businesses and promote the most efficient ones. (In this best of all possible worlds!) This doesn't have the overt racial implications of earlier ideas, though the reasoning is lifted wholesale from them. Here is a short take on it from his blog:
“”Evolution explains conservative free-market economics. Charles Darwin’s “natural selection” is precisely parallel to Adam Smith’s “invisible hand.” Darwin showed how complex design and ecological balance were unintended consequences of competition among individual organisms. Smith showed how national wealth and social harmony were unintended consequences of competition among individual people. Nature’s economy mirrors society’s economy. Both are designed from the bottom up, not the top down.
|
| —http://www.michaelshermer.com/2006/10/darwin-on-the-right/ |
He expands on this argument in his more recent book The Mind of the Market. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 04:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- But the Social Darwinists, if I understood them correctly, felt that we could draw moral conclusions from their beliefs that society was affected by evolutionary force. To put it more concisely "Is equals should". So if one race or country were subjugated by another that was all fine and good because it was "natural".
- Suggesting that other things in addition to biology might be subject to Darwinian natural selection doesn't seem to be the same thing. Some computer programmes are evolved for example, but we would not call their creators Social Darwinists.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 07:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Mind of the Market is dedicated to that argument. From p. 165: "This chapter -- indeed this entire book -- is not just descriptive of the way the world works, but it is also prescriptive of the way the world should work. That is, this is an exercise in raising our consciousness to higher levels of the Moral Evolutionary Pyramid."
- I never said that. I claimed that Shermer is recycling the same arguments made by earlier thinkers applying natural selection to economics. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- OK, and Dawkins applied natural selection to society and especially to religion when he came up with memes. In fact it's obvious that natural selection does apply outside of biological spheres. But that's not the same as Social Darwinism. I'm not saying that Shermer isn't a Social Dawinist - I haven't read his book - but the simple fact of his applying Darwinian descriptions to social change doesn't make him one any more than it makes Dawkins one.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- You continue to attack a straw man. I never said natural selection doesn't apply outside of biological evolution -- evolutionary algorithms are a good example of that. Memetics is also a good example of a faulty evolutionary analogy. However, my point is that Shermer is using the same reasoning as earlier social Darwinists by conflating the "invisible hand" (which is a misunderstanding of Smith anyway) with natural selection. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 20:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- OK, and Dawkins applied natural selection to society and especially to religion when he came up with memes. In fact it's obvious that natural selection does apply outside of biological spheres. But that's not the same as Social Darwinism. I'm not saying that Shermer isn't a Social Dawinist - I haven't read his book - but the simple fact of his applying Darwinian descriptions to social change doesn't make him one any more than it makes Dawkins one.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)