User talk:GrantC
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:::::::::::::::::Again, I don't care about his philosophical work now. The point is that his work in particle physics is quite well regarded, and that's the part I was referring to. - [[User:GrantC|GrantC]] ([[User talk:GrantC|talk]]) 21:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::::::::Again, I don't care about his philosophical work now. The point is that his work in particle physics is quite well regarded, and that's the part I was referring to. - [[User:GrantC|GrantC]] ([[User talk:GrantC|talk]]) 21:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::::::::: We're not referring to philosophical work. I was wrong about the number of papers he published, but most of his stuff looks kinda minor. He mostly authored them with other people. [[Special:Contributions/24.192.195.236|24.192.195.236]] ([[User talk:24.192.195.236|talk]]) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::::::::: We're not referring to philosophical work. I was wrong about the number of papers he published, but most of his stuff looks kinda minor. He mostly authored them with other people. [[Special:Contributions/24.192.195.236|24.192.195.236]] ([[User talk:24.192.195.236|talk]]) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC) | ||
| + | :::::::::::::::::::Okay, so perhaps you don't understand this, but it is very rare in physics to find a paper involving only a single author. Most papers are collaborations between various research groups, or between a professor and some of his or her students. There are hundreds of authors on any paper published from LHC data, as an example. Also, they "look kinda minor"? Again, I don't think you're familiar with how physics research actually works. If you were to look at the publication history of some Nobel laureates, you would find the same thing. The fact is that what is interesting and important in science is not at all the same as what "looks" important to the average layman. The average research area of any physicist is necessarily narrow. - [[User:GrantC|GrantC]] ([[User talk:GrantC|talk]]) 22:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::::::::Also, who the hell are you to talk about who is and isn't a respected physicist? I base these things on their contributions to the field of science, while you seem to just slap the term on whoever you support. Note that you insisted that your sources above were well-respected in quantum information until I pointed out that none of them actually work in the field. | ::::::::::::::::Also, who the hell are you to talk about who is and isn't a respected physicist? I base these things on their contributions to the field of science, while you seem to just slap the term on whoever you support. Note that you insisted that your sources above were well-respected in quantum information until I pointed out that none of them actually work in the field. | ||
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Revision as of 22:08, 10 September 2013
Hmm. Well at least I can manage a signature. That's something, I guess. - GrantC (talk) 04:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Contents |
Since you seem to have been doing some scut work around the wiki
Your mop and bucket await. Instructions for their use may be found in the usual place. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- Why thank you. I will do my best not to spill water all over the place. - GrantC (talk) 17:52, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
A word
Lately I've seen more and more instances of "free reign" in the wild. One of my hot buttons, it's actually "free rein," as in easing off the grip one keeps on the bridle straps (reins) that lead to the bit in a horse's mouth, with which the rider controls the animal's head.
Thanks for your participation in the talk page with Raatz's ahole buddy BoN.24. The aroma of bullshit is evident there, without any need for gas chromatograph nor mass spectrometer to detect it. I've got nothing to add to that conversation beyond suggesting that they go try selling it some more on Wikipedia. Citizendium has also been suggested... Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Heh, yes; I can't imagine what "free reign" would look like. Perhaps it's somewhat like divine right of rule, except who gets to be the monarch is decided my some kind of free-for-all.
- I'm a bit torn on that whole discussion, as I can't be certain whether BoN.24 is just being obstinate, or if he's legitimately just misunderstanding the sources he's citing. I would guess from his "contributions" at WP that it's the former situation, which would be unfortunate indeed. Ah well. - GrantC (talk) 17:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK. You write a lot of stuff, and have a very quick turn-around time. I will try to get back to you later this week. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:09, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, this is an advantage I have for actually working in the field. - GrantC (talk) 22:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK. You write a lot of stuff, and have a very quick turn-around time. I will try to get back to you later this week. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:09, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
OK...
Look, most of your arguments appear to either be straw-men (For the last bloody time, I am not saying "Classical computation + quantum = quantum computation") or based on what we don't know rather than what we do. There is such a thing as ratcheting the burden of proof up way too high. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- You are however saying "computing action + quantum action during computation = quantum computation" (by your own admission) which he has also explained as to why that is unacceptable. So no straw-man there. Nullahnung (talk) 20:21, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, he didn't show me why it was wrong. Bandyopadhyay explicitly shows why microtubules satisfy quantum computational requirements. GrantC just goes on to say that "Oh, they're just classical with some quantum stuff here and there." 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- I watched that bloody video, and at no point does he actually prove why they satisfy quantum computational requirements. Also, what part of "show me the models" do you not understand? Show me the actual physical model of quantum consciousness that goes beyond "man, these quantum probabilities seem to make more sense". The entire idea of quantum consciousness that you have fed me so far amounts to nothing other than an unproven assertion.
- I did explain why computing action + quantum action during computation = quantum computation is wrong. In fact, I gave you an explicit example: D-Wave. D-Wave's superconducting bits do indeed exhibit quantum tunneling during processing, and they do show computing action. That is not quantum computing! A quantum computer utilizes entanglement and superposition to perform computations. The fact that the BC in microtubules is quantum in nature is irrelevant! A link actually has to be placed showing that entanglement and quantum superposition are being observed during the computation, and no source has done that yet. One source says "there are qubits" while one says "look, quantum stuff happens at the same time", but that's irrelevant, because the quantum mechanical effects that are occurring are entirely unrelated to quantum computation. - GrantC (talk) 22:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Well, he is calling them topological quantum computers, so maybe the requirements are slightly different. I got the impression that the microtubules use quantum mechanisms in order to do the information processing in the first place. Obviously, quantum mechanical processes are everywhere in the universe, so quantum processes in the brain won't be much of a surprise, but the processes as Bandyopadhyay is showing seem to play a significant role in microtubules' information processing capabilities. That's what suggested quantum computation to me, what I know about it. In any case, Hameroff has told me that the Japanese team is testing "EPR-like" non-local correlations between separated microtubules. So some kind of entanglement is being tested, now that we've realized that there's a chance they can be topological quantum computers. (We never even had the possibility before at all!) All that needs to be tested is Penrose's Objective-Reduction interpretation (a test is being carried out right now), and the gravitational topological quantum computers that are microtubules will be realized. Whew! And in case you didn't get past the paywall, here's the Penrose-Hameroff model for gravitational topological quantum computation: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/quantumcomputation.html. The updated model will be out soon, and part of it is given in Hameroff's reply to Pothos and Busemeyer. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Hopefully we can put all of this behind us. I was a jerk. But we are, for all practical purposes, anonymous... 24.192.195.236 (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I appreciate your comments, and I apologize as well for losing my temper. It felt as though you were cherry-picking which of my arguments to address while ignoring the rest. I will say that Bandyopadhyay's work has not actually determined that these quantum mechanisms are responsible for information processing, and it will remain to be seen whether that connection will be made. Actual evidence of entanglement will get closer to the thrust of things, but I warn you that I will be wary of any results that come out of that. There is no general measure for entanglement on mixed states (even for two qubits), so if the system turns out to be anything even slightly complex and the study shows that entanglement happens, I will be very dubious and will ask to see more detailed proof. I will also point out that the OR interpretation (and the Penrose-Hameroff model in general) has been significantly discredited, and some of its predictions have been falsified. As a model, it's widely considered a fairly poor one, so I would be wary of any conclusions drawn from it (and no, I'm not referring solely to Tegmark's criticisms, but also criticisms that have arisen from lab work). Thanks for the link, though I do have access to journals behind paywalls. As you say, we are indeed anonymous, but I am actually a researcher in the field of quantum information, and so I do have institutional access to all of the major journal databases. I realize that I've provided you no proof of my assertions, but at the moment I'm unwilling to connect my real identity to my profile here.
- That said, I do keep an open mind on things like this. I hope you understand that the reason I'm setting the burden of proof so high is because that's what is required in the scientific community. Until an idea has been reproduced and tested thoroughly (both experimentally and theoretically), it isn't anything more than interesting conversation. Please do let me know when the rest of these papers are published, and I will keep a close eye on the reaction from the scientific community. - GrantC (talk) 18:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, a word of warning... I'm not sure if you're in league with Jfraatz, but what he is spouting is much closer to woo than what you're talking about. I appreciate that you have been trying not to rely on things like the Orch-OR model or other very much disputed results, but both you and he also seem to chime in on similar discussions. I note that in your discussions with me you didn't reference any of his positions, which is good. I did not respond to them myself because they were so unscientific as to be useless (claiming that one can't empirically prove everything with science while trying to argue that a quantum model of consciousness exists is self-contradictory). - GrantC (talk) 18:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm a friend of Raatz, perhaps unfortunately (LOL)! I just think of him as a good resource for random crazy shit people often overlook. Some of his beliefs are out-there, but I respect him generally. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Also, Orch-OR has criticisms, but I don't know if they're really as huge as WingGundam makes them out to be. The predominance of A-Lattice microtubules thing was a mistake (they were considered ideal for information processing), but it was only one prediction, and there are ways around that. For one, the number of tubulin bits/qubits needed for a conscious moment was calculated ahead of time (via Penrose's OR formula: E=ħ/T), so the ways you can distribute the number of tubulins among them can vary, depending on where the A-lattice vs. B-Lattice microtubules are. Related to this, Hameroff and Bandyopadhyay (keeping in touch with them is pretty damned helpful!) have stated that microtubules can "switch" in geometries, from A-Lattice to B-Lattice, vice-versa, and other geometries. They'll be coming out in the series of papers by Sahu et al. (the first two have been published). Danko Georgiev's paper is more like an op-ed. It makes several weird arguments (I've never seen anything stating that Orch-OR relies on the Freudian subconscious, since it actually seems to rely more on Whitehead and Jung), and Jack Tuszynski's team has responded to some of his criticisms with a model for the transportation of photons to quantum states in microtubules. I should also mention that he has his own OR model of consciousness, so there might be a conflict of interest there. Anirban's coherence is said to occur without actin gel, so that might be a moot point, though still an open one. Hameroff had the de Zeeuw paper in front of him (You can read the 2001 article!), so it seems more like a speculative leap on his part to think they would be where he wanted them to be, but it was only considered once as a mechanism. And the 10^7 number of tubulins was also a miscalculation (probably based on prior assumptions about neuron densities, etc.), but again, Orch-OR didn't rely on it for its predictions to be true. It was always used as an example ("If the number is X, as is commonly thought, that means these processes we've calculated ahead of time will occur here, here, and here"). It might actually be more beneficial to work with the actual 10^9 tubulins. I hope this helps... 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Also, I think the "quantized phase slip" argument seems quite convincing on Bandyopadhyay's part. I think the entire point is that the tubulins (the information-processing subunits in the microtubule) are qubits that can form topological qubits on a larger scale, and also show signs of being able to undergo entanglement. That's what I mean by "the microtubules are most likely quantum information processors". 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- The last thing I'd like to say is that the plausibility and testability of this (combined with how some of the criticisms are kinda lame) shows that this isn't really woo. Quantum mind is also more of a philosophical position in the first place. It CAN be scientific, but not necessarily so. (As if you couldn't tell already, I'm a philosophy guy!) It's a compromise between materialism (unfalsifiable as hell...) and dualism (also unfalsifiable). I wouldn't refer to it as "woo" or pseudoscience as a result. Tuszynski is a pretty respected theorist, as is Bandopadhyay (he's actually working nanotechnology, so that might be why he's using the microtubules), and both either are or were about Orch-OR. I got miffed when you said this was "fringe", because it doesn't seem like that's the case. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- The criticisms may not be as dire as WingGundam says; this is true. However, as I've mentioned previously, there are still big gaps in the theory that have yet to be filled (and the various OR models still leave much to be desired). Perhaps it will be determined that some modified OR model is correct, but we're nowhere near that point yet.
- Sure. Even Johanan and another friend of mine who supports it admit there are gaps that need to be filled. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, and it's important to note that said gaps might not be fillable at all. There's always that possibility in science. - GrantC (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- They are fillable. I acknowledge the possibility, but it seems unlikely. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, but on what grounds do you say that? The majority of scientists disagree with you quite strongly. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- The majority of scientists are agnostic at this point, actually. Bandyopadhyay himself has a wait-and-see attitude. So do Pothos and Busemeyer. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, but on what grounds do you say that? The majority of scientists disagree with you quite strongly. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- They are fillable. I acknowledge the possibility, but it seems unlikely. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, and it's important to note that said gaps might not be fillable at all. There's always that possibility in science. - GrantC (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. Even Johanan and another friend of mine who supports it admit there are gaps that need to be filled. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I used the word fringe for a reason, and it's still valid here. Of course, science works pretty strictly on the principle of peer review. At this point, the majority of scientific peer review of the various OR models and this research in general has determined that in its current formulation there is not enough evidence to consider it a working theory. The supporters of these OR models are a minority, and the views are far from mainstream. Hence, this science is indeed fringe. Whether it's woo or not may be another question, but I would say that until more evidence is put forward that actually closes these gaps (who knows, perhaps the papers you're referring to will do so when they are published, or maybe they won't), this kind of thing doesn't belong in the article. There are always many, many different branches of research into any scientific subject (check the arXiv for an example of that), and generally until the scientific community at large considers a paper or result notable (and more importantly, correct and reproducible), it's not really worth anything more than conversation, as I've said before.
- There is some evidence, though. I still find Bandyopadhyay's arguments to be quite compelling, and it looks like it's been thought of as revolutionary by quantum computer people, but we'll see. The information processing is done via tubulin arrangements in a microtubule, which seem to be topological qubits. That's why I thought they were topological quantum computers, since there's that link. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Some evidence, but not enough. It's also not really considered revolutionary, at least not by the majority of quantum computer people (look up quantum computing on Wikipedia and you'll see a list of institutions that are considered the bastions of quantum computing and quantum information). The big names in the business are people like Raymond Laflamme, David Cory, Peter Shor, David Wineland, the Horodecki family, etc.). The folks you cite may claim to be big in quantum information and quantum computing, or their supporters may think so, but they are not considered widely credible in the field by any of the actual big players. - GrantC (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Fair enough. They were definitely taken seriously by Jiri Pokorny, though. They're not "self-proclaimed", either. Don't know where you got that from. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- You'll note that I said that they either may claim to be big in the business, or their supporters think so. If you check Jiri Pokorny, you'll find that he has never published on anything related to quantum computing, or in any physics journals, for that matter. Hameroff has published a single major paper in a physics journal, and none of his positions/appointments have been in the field of physics, let alone quantum information. While Bandyopadhyay has published quite a few times in respected physics journals, none of his papers were on the topic of quantum information. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Great, but I meant with regards to biology. The 10 MHz excitation was excellent progress, based on what his recent paper on BioPhysics looked. Hameroff has published more stuff in theoretical neuroscience journals than in actual physics journals. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- You'll note that I said that they either may claim to be big in the business, or their supporters think so. If you check Jiri Pokorny, you'll find that he has never published on anything related to quantum computing, or in any physics journals, for that matter. Hameroff has published a single major paper in a physics journal, and none of his positions/appointments have been in the field of physics, let alone quantum information. While Bandyopadhyay has published quite a few times in respected physics journals, none of his papers were on the topic of quantum information. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Fair enough. They were definitely taken seriously by Jiri Pokorny, though. They're not "self-proclaimed", either. Don't know where you got that from. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Some evidence, but not enough. It's also not really considered revolutionary, at least not by the majority of quantum computer people (look up quantum computing on Wikipedia and you'll see a list of institutions that are considered the bastions of quantum computing and quantum information). The big names in the business are people like Raymond Laflamme, David Cory, Peter Shor, David Wineland, the Horodecki family, etc.). The folks you cite may claim to be big in quantum information and quantum computing, or their supporters may think so, but they are not considered widely credible in the field by any of the actual big players. - GrantC (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- There is some evidence, though. I still find Bandyopadhyay's arguments to be quite compelling, and it looks like it's been thought of as revolutionary by quantum computer people, but we'll see. The information processing is done via tubulin arrangements in a microtubule, which seem to be topological qubits. That's why I thought they were topological quantum computers, since there's that link. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I know a few philosophy majors myself, and they also think this method of dealing with scientific subjects is weird, but science puts heavy value on documented evidence, and tends to pay much less attention to speculation that isn't fleshed out with said evidence yet. That's why I didn't touch the concept of dualism in my responses: as it is unfalsifiable, it (and anything based on its premises) is unscientific by default. Science very strictly takes the side of materialism, and anything that requires a compromise from that point is, by definition, pseudoscience. Until some model comes along that leaves out the philosophy and says "here's the hard math", it's not scientific. - GrantC (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Materialism hand-waves stuff away, though. It hits a road-block with consciousness and just talks around the explanatory gap. If you don't believe me, take a quick look at the reviews of and arguments in CONSCIOUSNESS EXPLAINED. It's been called CONSCIOUSNESS EXPLAINED AWAY. It has great stuff on cognitive science, but it doesn't look like it has much else. There's no hard math in it. It basically boils down to, "This is how the brain works. Brain=mind. Therefore, this is how the mind works." And the Hameroff model DOES provide the math, unlike the more philosophical arguments like Wigner's and Stapp's. And models are prone to be tweaked, so who knows? Anyway, I'm glad you've softened up on it a little... 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Whether or not materialism hand-waves stuff away, by definition the domain of science is rooted solely in materialism. If we can't find real physical evidence for it, it's not science. That definition is rigid and absolute. That's not to say that things with a non-materialist explanation aren't interesting, but they aren't science (period). The Hameroff model provides some math, but it is considered a bad model at the moment because it's filled with holes and several parts of it have been discredited. Hameroff's replies to these issues have also been criticized, and one of his major replies was never actually peer reviewed (which makes it nigh worthless to the scientific community). My position hasn't necessarily softened, as I still believe this is pseudoscience. I'm trying to be nicer about it because you are not rooted in science, and in light of that, your objections are a little more understandable. I believe some of these objections are rooted in an incomplete understanding of the methodology behind scientific research, which is fair, because it's actually quite a convoluted subject. When I first started into research, I had some of the same misconceptions that you seem to have now.
- While my understanding of science may be in development, it is my understanding that you can alter aspects of the hypothesis just as long as the central claims aren't changed. Hameroff's replies seem very direct, as some biologists on the Nature forums were saying with regards to his unofficial Reimers-McKemmish response. The wonky JOURNAL OF COSMOLOGY thing was more of a side project with Henry Stapp, Rosenblum and Kuttner, and Don Page on quantum mind. But it wasn't the real reply. The actual preliminary was given by Hameroff at the 2010 TSC conference for feedback, and Tuszynski's replies in both Pokorny's papers and his own essentially repeated the same points, but included more physics. The final one is presumably going to be that Fall article Hameroff keeps telling me about. The only time Hameroff has really had his response "criticized" is the Rosa and Faber 2004 article, which is more of a compromise than a critique. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- His replies were also generally considered insufficient as concrete proof. You certainly can alter aspects of a hypothesis, but what we're talking about here is a model (not a hypothesis), which is subject to a far more rigorous standard. It is possible that there is some variant of the Orch-OR model that will in fact work, so to speak, but the current incarnation is not it. I await his full paper and the response from the scientific community that will follow. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- While my understanding of science may be in development, it is my understanding that you can alter aspects of the hypothesis just as long as the central claims aren't changed. Hameroff's replies seem very direct, as some biologists on the Nature forums were saying with regards to his unofficial Reimers-McKemmish response. The wonky JOURNAL OF COSMOLOGY thing was more of a side project with Henry Stapp, Rosenblum and Kuttner, and Don Page on quantum mind. But it wasn't the real reply. The actual preliminary was given by Hameroff at the 2010 TSC conference for feedback, and Tuszynski's replies in both Pokorny's papers and his own essentially repeated the same points, but included more physics. The final one is presumably going to be that Fall article Hameroff keeps telling me about. The only time Hameroff has really had his response "criticized" is the Rosa and Faber 2004 article, which is more of a compromise than a critique. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm also somewhat interested in philosophy myself, so I can understand the urge to conflate philosophical discussion and scientific reality (this misunderstanding is why most universities offer a "Philosophy of science" course for science majors). - GrantC (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I am more of a philosophy of science guy, yes. Materialism isn't scientific. It's kind of unfalsifiable, and keeps moving the goalposts when stuff related to quantum mechanics (or even now-speculative but mathematically sound theories of quantum gravity) is found. It's more of a faith position than anything else. Quantum mind is an unorthodox position, but it seems to be worth it... 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Materialism is the basis of science, actually. Again, as someone who is a quantum physicist, there is nothing in quantum mechanics or current studies of quantum gravity that require moving the goalposts or abandoning materialism. If you believe there is, then you fundamentally misunderstand both theories. Sure, some people spout mumbo-jumbo about how things like wavefunction collapse, wave-particle duality, and quantum field theory are crazy and impossible to explain, but that's just not true. Quantum gravity is hard to figure out for a fairly mundane reason: relativity treats time in a fundamentally different manner than quantum mechanics does, and trying to reconcile those two definitions is problematic. This implies that one (or both) theories are incomplete. Again, there has been no moving of the goalposts here. There is no place in science for anything beyond materialism, because by definition, non-materialist phenomena do not present physical evidence. There may very well be non-materialist stuff out there, but if it is, science isn't the right set of tools to describe it. This is why I have a bit of an issue with the claim that quantum consciousness is a compromise between the two. Quantum mechanics is a theory well-rooted in entirely materialist science (as it should be). Anything quantum mechanics can describe is, by definition, materialist. Anything that isn't materialist cannot be described by quantum mechanics. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK. It looks like you're set in your opinion. I guess I'm done here. Just don't alter it so that it's "woo". 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, set on what? If it's that the model is still incomplete, that is true, and the burden of proof is on Hameroff. Again, I'm open to changing my mind when his rebuttals show in the fall paper he's working on. If he does satisfy the objections brought against Orch-OR, great. If it's about the fact that quantum mechanics and quantum gravity are solely based on materialism, then I'm not sure what to tell you. You may be thinking of the various debates about the interpretation of quantum mechanics, but there is roughly one interpretation per researcher in the field, and nobody treats them as actual science. Philosophy, yes. Science, no. There's nothing scientific about many-worlds theory because it isn't testable. Either way, quantum mechanics is purely materialist, from tip to toe, and so is the current theoretical work on quantum gravity. - GrantC (talk) 21:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- A cursory Google search shows where the latter issue may be arising. I would note Victor Stenger's view on the subject. He's a well-respected physicist, and his views actually represent the majority views of actual researchers in quantum mechanics. You'll find that most researchers who spend their lives working on quantum theory find interpretations to be an interesting subject of discussion, but will be quick to point out that the theory itself (the actual physics) is soundly materialist. - GrantC (talk) 21:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, boy. You think Stenger is a respected physicist? He's not. He's published about 7 papers and is more of a philosopher of science. He does not represent the consensus view at all. I've read Stenger. You'd be surprised how much he's been debunked. His QUANTUM GODS book is ridiculous. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- (EC) Actually, he has done quite a lot of work in particle physics: http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Bio/CV.pdf, and that is indeed respected. I don't care how much some of his philosophical views have been debunked; the fact of the matter is that quantum theory has nothing to say about stuff other than matter and energy. You may interpret quantum theory one way or the other, but the actual physics itself says nothing on the subject. I'm not sure what quantum physics you've been researching such that you arrive at the conclusions that quantum mechanics supports non-materialism, but again, you're completely wrong. How you interpret what the theory means is subjective, but the theory itself is not. - GrantC (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Look, it's not his "philosophical" views that have been debunked. It's his scientific ones as well. His book on fine-tuning looked pretty bad, seeing the reply by Luke Barnes. And no, QM DOES violate materialism. I never said wave-function collapse was "impossible" to explain. I don't like things like many-worlds because there are issues with probabilities to the point where it's ad-hoc, not so much because it's untestable. I like Penrose OR, but I think it could be more information-based, like the interpretations Zeilinger's experiments seem to support (though he denies naïve realism as well!). And I remember Fotoni Markopoulou-Kalamara and Lee Smolin talking about how spacetime needs to be broken down in order to get a theory of quantum gravity. There's also a great deal of stuff by Raphael Bousso and Leonard Susskind indicating that QM and GR entail something like the holographic principle as true. Digital physics is becoming a big thing (in fact, Stenger spends a lot of time talking about how the universe BEING a quantum computer refutes God!) due to these recent advancements. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Isn't Stenger just a philosopher of science now? Given some of his articles at HuffPo it appears he rejects the consensus of digital physics as well. Also I believe he has attacked as pseudoscientists far more respected physicists like Penrose and Davies. -Jfraatz
- Again, I don't care about his philosophical work now. The point is that his work in particle physics is quite well regarded, and that's the part I was referring to. - GrantC (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- We're not referring to philosophical work. I was wrong about the number of papers he published, but most of his stuff looks kinda minor. He mostly authored them with other people. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, so perhaps you don't understand this, but it is very rare in physics to find a paper involving only a single author. Most papers are collaborations between various research groups, or between a professor and some of his or her students. There are hundreds of authors on any paper published from LHC data, as an example. Also, they "look kinda minor"? Again, I don't think you're familiar with how physics research actually works. If you were to look at the publication history of some Nobel laureates, you would find the same thing. The fact is that what is interesting and important in science is not at all the same as what "looks" important to the average layman. The average research area of any physicist is necessarily narrow. - GrantC (talk) 22:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- We're not referring to philosophical work. I was wrong about the number of papers he published, but most of his stuff looks kinda minor. He mostly authored them with other people. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Again, I don't care about his philosophical work now. The point is that his work in particle physics is quite well regarded, and that's the part I was referring to. - GrantC (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Also, who the hell are you to talk about who is and isn't a respected physicist? I base these things on their contributions to the field of science, while you seem to just slap the term on whoever you support. Note that you insisted that your sources above were well-respected in quantum information until I pointed out that none of them actually work in the field.
- (EC) Actually, he has done quite a lot of work in particle physics: http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Bio/CV.pdf, and that is indeed respected. I don't care how much some of his philosophical views have been debunked; the fact of the matter is that quantum theory has nothing to say about stuff other than matter and energy. You may interpret quantum theory one way or the other, but the actual physics itself says nothing on the subject. I'm not sure what quantum physics you've been researching such that you arrive at the conclusions that quantum mechanics supports non-materialism, but again, you're completely wrong. How you interpret what the theory means is subjective, but the theory itself is not. - GrantC (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, boy. You think Stenger is a respected physicist? He's not. He's published about 7 papers and is more of a philosopher of science. He does not represent the consensus view at all. I've read Stenger. You'd be surprised how much he's been debunked. His QUANTUM GODS book is ridiculous. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK. It looks like you're set in your opinion. I guess I'm done here. Just don't alter it so that it's "woo". 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Materialism is the basis of science, actually. Again, as someone who is a quantum physicist, there is nothing in quantum mechanics or current studies of quantum gravity that require moving the goalposts or abandoning materialism. If you believe there is, then you fundamentally misunderstand both theories. Sure, some people spout mumbo-jumbo about how things like wavefunction collapse, wave-particle duality, and quantum field theory are crazy and impossible to explain, but that's just not true. Quantum gravity is hard to figure out for a fairly mundane reason: relativity treats time in a fundamentally different manner than quantum mechanics does, and trying to reconcile those two definitions is problematic. This implies that one (or both) theories are incomplete. Again, there has been no moving of the goalposts here. There is no place in science for anything beyond materialism, because by definition, non-materialist phenomena do not present physical evidence. There may very well be non-materialist stuff out there, but if it is, science isn't the right set of tools to describe it. This is why I have a bit of an issue with the claim that quantum consciousness is a compromise between the two. Quantum mechanics is a theory well-rooted in entirely materialist science (as it should be). Anything quantum mechanics can describe is, by definition, materialist. Anything that isn't materialist cannot be described by quantum mechanics. - GrantC (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I am more of a philosophy of science guy, yes. Materialism isn't scientific. It's kind of unfalsifiable, and keeps moving the goalposts when stuff related to quantum mechanics (or even now-speculative but mathematically sound theories of quantum gravity) is found. It's more of a faith position than anything else. Quantum mind is an unorthodox position, but it seems to be worth it... 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Whether or not materialism hand-waves stuff away, by definition the domain of science is rooted solely in materialism. If we can't find real physical evidence for it, it's not science. That definition is rigid and absolute. That's not to say that things with a non-materialist explanation aren't interesting, but they aren't science (period). The Hameroff model provides some math, but it is considered a bad model at the moment because it's filled with holes and several parts of it have been discredited. Hameroff's replies to these issues have also been criticized, and one of his major replies was never actually peer reviewed (which makes it nigh worthless to the scientific community). My position hasn't necessarily softened, as I still believe this is pseudoscience. I'm trying to be nicer about it because you are not rooted in science, and in light of that, your objections are a little more understandable. I believe some of these objections are rooted in an incomplete understanding of the methodology behind scientific research, which is fair, because it's actually quite a convoluted subject. When I first started into research, I had some of the same misconceptions that you seem to have now.
- Materialism hand-waves stuff away, though. It hits a road-block with consciousness and just talks around the explanatory gap. If you don't believe me, take a quick look at the reviews of and arguments in CONSCIOUSNESS EXPLAINED. It's been called CONSCIOUSNESS EXPLAINED AWAY. It has great stuff on cognitive science, but it doesn't look like it has much else. There's no hard math in it. It basically boils down to, "This is how the brain works. Brain=mind. Therefore, this is how the mind works." And the Hameroff model DOES provide the math, unlike the more philosophical arguments like Wigner's and Stapp's. And models are prone to be tweaked, so who knows? Anyway, I'm glad you've softened up on it a little... 24.192.195.236 (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- The criticisms may not be as dire as WingGundam says; this is true. However, as I've mentioned previously, there are still big gaps in the theory that have yet to be filled (and the various OR models still leave much to be desired). Perhaps it will be determined that some modified OR model is correct, but we're nowhere near that point yet.
- By the way, a word of warning... I'm not sure if you're in league with Jfraatz, but what he is spouting is much closer to woo than what you're talking about. I appreciate that you have been trying not to rely on things like the Orch-OR model or other very much disputed results, but both you and he also seem to chime in on similar discussions. I note that in your discussions with me you didn't reference any of his positions, which is good. I did not respond to them myself because they were so unscientific as to be useless (claiming that one can't empirically prove everything with science while trying to argue that a quantum model of consciousness exists is self-contradictory). - GrantC (talk) 18:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, he didn't show me why it was wrong. Bandyopadhyay explicitly shows why microtubules satisfy quantum computational requirements. GrantC just goes on to say that "Oh, they're just classical with some quantum stuff here and there." 24.192.195.236 (talk) 20:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Those were years ago though. The last time he published in particle physics was in 1986. And don't see how particle physics is particularly (no pun intended) relevant to the issues here. -Jfraatz
- Who cares if it was years ago? We're discussing an interpretations issue that is at least 90 years old. The time period between his last contribution and now is not relevant to this discussion. Also, have you ever done anything in particle physics? Tip: It involves quite a lot of quantum theory. - GrantC (talk) 21:40, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nice red-herring. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- ... Seriously? The argument was about whether Victor Stenger's views on whether quantum mechanics says anything about materialism are correct or not. Your argument was that he's not qualified on the grounds of not being a respected physicist. I pointed out that he is respected in his work, and thus he is indeed qualified. Also, point out where the math and physics in quantum theory points the finger at non-materialist conclusions. Again, burden of proof. Quantum theory is entirely agnostic to the concept of materialism, but the science itself does not and cannot speak about anything other than matter and energy. - GrantC (talk) 22:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nice red-herring. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Who cares if it was years ago? We're discussing an interpretations issue that is at least 90 years old. The time period between his last contribution and now is not relevant to this discussion. Also, have you ever done anything in particle physics? Tip: It involves quite a lot of quantum theory. - GrantC (talk) 21:40, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Those were years ago though. The last time he published in particle physics was in 1986. And don't see how particle physics is particularly (no pun intended) relevant to the issues here. -Jfraatz
Science =/= materialism = pseudoscience
"Science very strictly takes the side of materialism, and anything that requires a compromise from that point is, by definition, pseudoscience."
My friend suggested I come over here, and I can see why. Science does not "strictly take the side of materialism." There is no reason why science should take any ontological "side." In fact given the experiments by Zeilinger some years back it takes quite the opposite view. The existence of matter is not substantiated with any evidence and has much evidence against it. If you have some evidence to the contrary please present it.
Besides all of that, none of us here are substance dualists or are arguing for things outside of science. However claiming that science is per definition materialistic, and anything outside of that is pseudoscience is presuppositionalist question begging. Wouldn't you agree? -Jfraatz
- No, I wouldn't agree, because I actually do research in physics. Quantum theory says nothing about whether materialism is correct, and in fact, it only speaks of materialist quantities (matter and energy). The whole "interpretation issue" is not science, as quantum theory cannot prove or disprove the Copenhagen interpretation, for example. It is exactly that: an interpretation, and it is subjective and untestable. Please don't comment further on my talk page. Your friend has at least proven to be amenable to discourse, while you are not. - GrantC (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes and I have degree in physics, I'm not blind to what it's saying and what is going on in it today. "it is subjective and untestable" <----A.) That's not what Zeilinger seemed to be arguing. B.) If it's subjective why do you say science strictly takes one side on it? "amenable to discourse, while you are not" <----What?
- I don't care what Zeilinger is arguing. My point from the beginning is that quantum theory as a discipline is rooted in materialism, and makes predictions only about materialism. The point I'm refuting is that it is acceptable to say "quantum mechanics describes this thing" while also saying "this thing is non-materialistic". These are mutually incompatible views. - GrantC (talk) 21:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Also, what part of "please don't post here" don't you understand? - GrantC (talk) 21:41, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Dude, it makes no predictions of any kind. It doesn't "use" materialism as the be-all end-all. If science supports that information is more fundamental than spacetime, so be it. Materialism is something that's been abstracted from scientific results. It initially thought the universe was some kind of billiard-ball machine that was completely deterministic. Not only has the determinism been falsified, but QM implies that it's not particles, but MATH all the way down, at least from what I gather reading Penrose and Tegmark. 24.192.195.236 (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Also, what part of "please don't post here" don't you understand? - GrantC (talk) 21:41, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't care what Zeilinger is arguing. My point from the beginning is that quantum theory as a discipline is rooted in materialism, and makes predictions only about materialism. The point I'm refuting is that it is acceptable to say "quantum mechanics describes this thing" while also saying "this thing is non-materialistic". These are mutually incompatible views. - GrantC (talk) 21:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes and I have degree in physics, I'm not blind to what it's saying and what is going on in it today. "it is subjective and untestable" <----A.) That's not what Zeilinger seemed to be arguing. B.) If it's subjective why do you say science strictly takes one side on it? "amenable to discourse, while you are not" <----What?