Essay talk:Why cockfighting is the acid test of multiculturalism
Counterpoints:
- It's pretty straightforward to say that the specific nature of cock and dogfighting results in undue suffering. This is a triviality for you to dimiss: once I accept the notion of eating meat, some cruelty to animals is inevitable. But animal bloodsport frequently results in lives that are lonely, nasty, brutish, and short for the animals. This is distinct from farming practices that end up killing animals, as death is a part of life, and the life cycle of farm animals depends on that process. Removing needless cruelty and having some basic dignity isn't an extraordinary requirement.
- Natural attachment to other illegal activities: notably gambling. Regardless of whether or not you personally agree with a ban on gambling itself, the precedent for laws banning activities closely coupled with other illegal or dangerous activities is well established. Be it open container laws and drunk driving, loitering and petty crimes such as vandalism or theft, or improper bookkeeping and fraud. A separate and distinct argument needs to be made that the gambling that coincides with cock-fighting and similar activities is not against the public interest.
- The effect on people: cruelty to animals is associated with psychopathy, and it has not been firmly established that exposure doesn't promote psychopathic behavior. Though I understand that this may confuse cause and effect, it's not unreasonable to expect empathic desensitization.
On the whole, not amazing arguments, it's enough, for me, to deter arguments that there is an ethical obligation to legalize the practice. This claim isn't substantiated(as of yet). Ikanreed (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- I will get around to addressing these arguments in the fullness of time. This may take a while to build. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 17:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Your last paragraphs smell of appeal to tradition to me. The Offwo (talk) 17:50, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- When we're talking about multiculturalism and tolerance, other peoples' traditions are important. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 17:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but only for traditions that do not bear harm. There's nothing wrong with tolerating burqas, halal/kosher meats, native languages, and new opinions. Tolerance never need bring itself to the point of accepting harm. Fundamentalism Mormon style polygamy with its ejection of and abandonment young men, for example should not be accepted. Ikanreed (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Many controversial cultural traditions like cockfighting or FGM don't need to be as harmful as they typically are, though. Instead of adding spikes to the roosters' legs, you could instead have them wear protective gear and instead of letting them fight to the death, just let them fight a few timed laps with the winner determined by points scored. And for FGM, if the invasive procedures were actually performed in medically responsible situations and done at an age where the girls might actually be able to provide informed consent, it'd be a lot less problematic. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 19:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Hypothetically, yes. Ikanreed (talk) 20:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- The point ultimately will be, not that cockfighting is harmless to chickens, but that we routinely do so many things that cause pain to chickens. So much so that singling out cockfighting for a ban is hypocritical, at least for someone who also claims to value the right of other cultures to exist unmolested. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- And we'll have to see if you can establish that. In absolutely neutral terms, I'd like to see an end to the most abusive farming practices in the name of equality rather than the legalization of cock fighting. Ikanreed (talk) 20:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- I agree about ending abusive farming practices, though I think it's kinda odd to say that it's "in the name of equality". 141.134.75.236 (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, smerdis presented us with a dilemma, the law is unfair to one group, and the implied solution is legalize a certain harmful behavior, even if we give him his moral dilemma, legal equality can also established in another way. Ikanreed (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 22:16, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, smerdis presented us with a dilemma, the law is unfair to one group, and the implied solution is legalize a certain harmful behavior, even if we give him his moral dilemma, legal equality can also established in another way. Ikanreed (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- I agree about ending abusive farming practices, though I think it's kinda odd to say that it's "in the name of equality". 141.134.75.236 (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- And we'll have to see if you can establish that. In absolutely neutral terms, I'd like to see an end to the most abusive farming practices in the name of equality rather than the legalization of cock fighting. Ikanreed (talk) 20:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- The point ultimately will be, not that cockfighting is harmless to chickens, but that we routinely do so many things that cause pain to chickens. So much so that singling out cockfighting for a ban is hypocritical, at least for someone who also claims to value the right of other cultures to exist unmolested. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Hypothetically, yes. Ikanreed (talk) 20:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Many controversial cultural traditions like cockfighting or FGM don't need to be as harmful as they typically are, though. Instead of adding spikes to the roosters' legs, you could instead have them wear protective gear and instead of letting them fight to the death, just let them fight a few timed laps with the winner determined by points scored. And for FGM, if the invasive procedures were actually performed in medically responsible situations and done at an age where the girls might actually be able to provide informed consent, it'd be a lot less problematic. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 19:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but only for traditions that do not bear harm. There's nothing wrong with tolerating burqas, halal/kosher meats, native languages, and new opinions. Tolerance never need bring itself to the point of accepting harm. Fundamentalism Mormon style polygamy with its ejection of and abandonment young men, for example should not be accepted. Ikanreed (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Puritans hated bear-baiting
“The Puritans hated bear-baiting,[wp] not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators.” — Thomas Babington Macaulay
The "factory-farmed chicken and PETA" argument reminded me of that. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Okay, now the core thesis of this essay is becoming apparent
It's become pretty clear that the main position advanced by this essay is the following: You can either accept all aspects of all cultures uncritically or you can reject multiculturalism. This is a false dilemma. It uses moral relativity as a bludgeon to attempt to make the almost comically extreme view that a society collectively making something illegal due to perceived harm is the same as a society making something illegal due to bigotry.
This core idea, be it about cock-fighting, child abuse, marital rape, or extremes like slavery, still ignores that multiculturalism is an idea that arises from ethical frameworks, not in spite of them. Those frameworks are not always the same as each other, but they tend to come from a few common core ideas such as
- The harmlessness of ideas, and often the benefits of a diversity thereof
- The value of the fundamental equality of all people
- Often a Kantian kind of respect for the notion of dignity
Multiculturalism isn't itself the end in these frameworks, it's often intended as a means to achieve a deeper objective. Anything granted protection under the guises of multiculturalism needs to, in particular, pay attention to the notion of harmlessness. This essay, as of yet, doesn't focus adequately on that end. Ikanreed (talk) 16:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
- I probably do better by writing my essays by my usual method, which is to begin with undirected musings and only afterwards decide what the thesis is. But I think you do well to focus on the values that multiculturalism is meant to put into practice, and especially in focusing on liberty, equality, and dignity. This actually makes it easier, by helping to point out the specific ways in which "but it's mean to chickens!" is less of a big deal than those things. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 18:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Bullfighting
So let's talk about cultural parallels.
Spanish Bullfighting. If we're to take the notion that western rejection of animal cruelty in the specific realm of cockfighting is a dismissal of different cultures, we could find that Bullfighting in Spain would be mostly unaffected, as it is a native sport.
that's not entirely true. Parts of Spain where it was once popular have banned the sport, in spite of being essentially a native sport, and incidence in general is way down. This reflects a possibility that mere disdain for foreign cultures isn't the only driving mechanism.
Many "brown" cultures also outright forbid animal fighting as well. That definitely includes Buddhism, and according to wikipedia, followers of Islam are also explicitly forbidden to engage in animal fights. This suggests that there may be a broader intercultural reason, be it legitimate or not, to condemn the behavior. Ikanreed (talk) 22:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
- It probably isn't all that interesting any more, especially in an age of mass media. I've heard mostly the same story, and that tourism is what keeps it alive. Still, the world would be a duller place without bullfighting, IMO. I am glad that it exists. If it's mean to cows, I don't care. I wish it would be possible to stage one here in the USA. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 03:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- Don't you guys have something similar in America, except that the matador are clowns and you have a guy trying to sit on the bull while it's running around? Oh, and they don't kill the bull at the end. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Legalize or illegalize?
The title and first line of the essay proposes legalising cockfighting, then the rest of the essay arguing against "making it a crime". So are you talking about legalising cockfighting in countries or jurisdictions where it isn't currently legal or about opposing bans on cockfighting in countries or jurisdictions where it is currently legal? They're not the same thing. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 09:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Eating cocks
From Larry Elterman's A Man's Guide to Life and Love in the Philippines: "Cock fighting is one of the national pastimes in the Philippines, and you will never convince Filipinos that it's a cruel sport. Actually, since the losing cock is almost always eaten, I myself don't really see the big deal. What's the difference if one cock kills another, or if you chop off their head at a farm? In the meantime, between fights, the fighting cocks are treated like kings, given the best food and care in the hopes of producing a winning cock. . . . To speed up the fights razor blades are strapped to the feet of the cocks. As a result the first cock to get in a good slash is usually the winner. The fights usually last between 30 seconds and two minutes. They rarely last more than three minutes."
There are probably crueler and more wasteful practices than cockfighting, at least as practiced in the Philippines. Landmartian (talk) 19:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Parody
Is this parody or do you believe each argument you've presented has merit? Forgive me if you've come clean on this talk page. I won't read it. Nutty Roux (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- It isn't exactly parody, and I actually do believe that cockfighting ought to be legal, and that the arguments against it are hypocritical and parochial. On the other hand, while I won't vote for laws against cockfighting, it isn't a cause I pursue zealously. (Pursuing any cause zealously is bad, m'kay?) Still, I don't like to see cultural minorities being persecuted, especially not in the name of newly made-up moral reforms.
On the other hand, you wouldn't be far from the mark in saying that part of the point is to cast light on a contradiction between various "progressive" pieties. Truth is, I despise "animal rights" and veganism. These causes strike me as prissy, sentimental, and authoritarian. And laws against cockfighting do in fact persecute cultural minorities in the name of animal rights. This is part of the problem in a nutshell. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)- And your case for that hypocrisy remains unconvincing. It tries to use moral relativism a bludgeon, suggesting that because other cultures engage in a practice, it is beyond moral criticism. It simply doesn't hold up in a utilitarian legalistic framework, than many many people use. Ikanreed (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, yes, to the extent that some degree of moral relativism is necessary for multiculturalism. I do think any multiculturalism worthy of the name has to make room for different ideas about the appropriate treatment of animals. This is one of the points on which cultures do differ.
I've also tried to address harm to the extent that I am able. Given the fate of almost every chicken bred by humans, I think that objections to the cruelty of cockfighting, as if it were uniquely cruel, ring false. Unless you're a vegan of some sort it's hypocritical. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 05:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, yes, to the extent that some degree of moral relativism is necessary for multiculturalism. I do think any multiculturalism worthy of the name has to make room for different ideas about the appropriate treatment of animals. This is one of the points on which cultures do differ.
- And your case for that hypocrisy remains unconvincing. It tries to use moral relativism a bludgeon, suggesting that because other cultures engage in a practice, it is beyond moral criticism. It simply doesn't hold up in a utilitarian legalistic framework, than many many people use. Ikanreed (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Hypocrisy and morality
Personally I don't see hypocrisy as a primarily moral concern, but as something people like to bring up when they're trying to tarnish another's honour. Sure, if people were to act perfectly moral it would require them to not act hypocritical anymore, but how realistic is that? Plenty people seem willing to direct the trolley[wp] away from the higher amount of people, but what if a loved one is trapped on the less populated track? I'd say a consistently non-hypocritical application of morality is less likely than a consistent non-application of morality and the latter is certainly morally undesirable. It's interesting to think about what a consistent application of morality would actually require, though. For example, if animal suffering is to be considered objectively immoral, we don't just need to stop all humans from hurting animals, we'd also be required to intervene in the natural world, to stop predators from harming their prey etc. But then how would the predators survive? And if animals can't provide informed consent, shouldn't we not only stop humans from having sex with them, but non-human animals as well? Then how are they going to reproduce? Questions, questions. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 07:26, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
- The charge of hypocrisy is usually made, as here, seeking to deflect moral dudgeon. Against the claim that cockfighting should be illegal because it is deliberately and needlessly cruel to chickens, I want to point out that 1./ just about every chicken humans breed, we kill, 2./ the ways we kill them may not be much less cruel than cockfighting, and 3./ they're just chickens, so who cares? Avoiding hypocrisy may be impossible for anyone to consistently do, but I've always been the one saying we need to make allowances for human weakness. But I'm not the one seeking to put people in jail for staging chicken fights. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 20:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Bullshit
No one is alleging that "if you come from a culture that supports bloodsport you're nastier by proxy". Instead I'm alleging that the bloodsport itself, and no the culture that created it, is the source of negative impact. You're going to have to address the concerns as they exist, not continue the charade of pretending it's about rejecting a culture. Ikanreed (talk) 17:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you reject cockfighting, you are automatically rejecting cultures. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 17:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you reject human sacrifice, you reject cultures. If you reject gladitorial combat, you reject cultures. If you reject bride kidnapping, you reject cultures. All literally true statements that deflect the notion that a multicultural society has an obligation to reasonably decide boundaries based on pragmatism. Ikanreed (talk) 17:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- There is a key distinction here. Gladiatorial combat, human sacrifice, and bride kidnapping all involve human beings as victims. Cockfighting has only chickens as victims. Ultimately, all of these arguments boil down to inappropriately equating human beings with chickens. The sufferings of chickens at minimum carry a whole lot less moral weight than that of human victims. Given the ways this culture routinely treats chickens, we're hypocrites if we give chickens any moral weight at all. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 19:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- You're right, no one in the western world has outlawed animal abuse on it's own terms. Or demanded ethical standards for animal testing. No wait. That's the opposite of true. I'm not saying the values are totally consistent in declaration and enforcement and understanding, but there's no magic double standard except in your head. Ikanreed (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. And I would dial that stuff back quite a bit myself as well. There was a local controversy a few years back when a local pound ran out of drugs and euthanized some dogs with a shotgun. Never mind that using a shotgun is not considered inhumane by the US humane society, or that it's a pretty traditional way of quickly putting down a dog. Some activists thought it was gross and sad that dogs died, and started a fuss demanding the jobs of the director and a sheriff's deputy who was involved. Animal rights depend on how familiar and pet-like the animal involved is, and how emotionally attached you can talk yourself into becoming. So in biology class lots of people object to dissecting the cat, but making the flatworm regenerate its tail is still cool.
Some time ago I became aware of organized crowds of White animal rightsers interfering with Native fishing and hunting rights that were promised to them by treaty. Racism can hide just as well behind granola moral earnestness as it can behind other flavors. That did get me thinking, and I concluded that animal rights was mostly about sentimentality. Here in the States, having endured forty years of sentimental and gross-out dreck from the anti-abortion cult, to carry on in the same vein about a chicken is a non-starter here. I have chosen to deliberately harden my heart against every such appeal. Where human freedom conflicts with animal rights, I will opt for human freedom every time. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 01:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)- Honestly, it's starting to sound like you aren't multicultural and don't like the subculture of animals rights and want to punish it for existing. Ikanreed (talk) 14:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
- Aren't almost all movements about sentimentality when you get down to it? Also, I wouldn't consider littering a creature's innards with small metal spheres as particularly humane. Unless they shot directly at the brain, the animal would feel significant pain before passing away. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 14:57, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what it means to "be multicultural" or not be; but I do in fact appreciate the fact that cultures may value in their tastes and values, and would prefer to live in a place where people are free to participate in a wide variety of such cultures and that no one culture should be empowered to enforce its tastes and values on those who disagree. I have pretty much nothing but contempt for animal-rightsers. They would deprive the world not only of cockfights but also of circuses and saltimbocca, and otherwise build a greyer and more samey world in the name of their chosen piety. And it doesn't end, either. We have the humane society saying it's OK to put down a dog with a shotgun, and arguments here that it's mean. People who argue from lofty abstractions can't be given an inch. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 03:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. And I would dial that stuff back quite a bit myself as well. There was a local controversy a few years back when a local pound ran out of drugs and euthanized some dogs with a shotgun. Never mind that using a shotgun is not considered inhumane by the US humane society, or that it's a pretty traditional way of quickly putting down a dog. Some activists thought it was gross and sad that dogs died, and started a fuss demanding the jobs of the director and a sheriff's deputy who was involved. Animal rights depend on how familiar and pet-like the animal involved is, and how emotionally attached you can talk yourself into becoming. So in biology class lots of people object to dissecting the cat, but making the flatworm regenerate its tail is still cool.
- You're right, no one in the western world has outlawed animal abuse on it's own terms. Or demanded ethical standards for animal testing. No wait. That's the opposite of true. I'm not saying the values are totally consistent in declaration and enforcement and understanding, but there's no magic double standard except in your head. Ikanreed (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- There is a key distinction here. Gladiatorial combat, human sacrifice, and bride kidnapping all involve human beings as victims. Cockfighting has only chickens as victims. Ultimately, all of these arguments boil down to inappropriately equating human beings with chickens. The sufferings of chickens at minimum carry a whole lot less moral weight than that of human victims. Given the ways this culture routinely treats chickens, we're hypocrites if we give chickens any moral weight at all. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 19:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you reject human sacrifice, you reject cultures. If you reject gladitorial combat, you reject cultures. If you reject bride kidnapping, you reject cultures. All literally true statements that deflect the notion that a multicultural society has an obligation to reasonably decide boundaries based on pragmatism. Ikanreed (talk) 17:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)