Site-related discussion
Today I read that Google is about to make changes to its algorythm that will value websites with mobile versions over sites without those. Are you gonna launch a new mobile version of RationalWiki? Faunas (talk) 18:01, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see why we shouldn't, although editing wikis is apparently a pain on phones. Bicyclewheel
19:03, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has a mobile version; is it part of MediaWiki that we could update to/steal? FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 21:08, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Do the people who run Rational Wiki keep any portion of the donations for themselves as financial compensations for their time and effort?
Do the people who run rational wiki keep any portion of the donations for themselves as financial compensations for their time and effort?
I ask this because I was considering donating a bit of money, probably around 20 or so bucks, nothing huge, just a drop in the ocean really, but I wanted to know whether or not that money will just go into someones pocket to reward them for working on rational wiki. In otherwords, does the rational wiki foundation have any paid employees? If not, I'll gladly donate as pseudoscience is the bane of my entire existence. I'm not trying to be rude or preachy or anything, and I don't want to sound cheap, it's just that I work a near minimum wage job as a student of psychology trying to juggle various commitments and budgets. I have appreciable savings (20 grand worth), so it's not like I'm poor or anything, but I am very picky about how I donate my money. Thanks for all of your time.
- No.CorruptUser (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
- The RMF has no paid employees; its trustees are voluntary electees. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 02:32, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful to know how heavily RationalWiki is used in each country. People who like writing articles could use the information to start working on non-US/UK articles where needed. Does anyone with access to RationalWiki's servers know if this is possible, maybe by logging IPs and running them through some database of IP blocks allocated to countries? CombustibleLemon (talk) 16:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Here's the overview from Alexa. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 16:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
As an offshoot of the recent coop case against LogicMaster777, an issue was raised surrounding RW's status as a U.S. charitable and educational organisation under the 501(c)3:
Do RW's criticism of various (active) U.S. politicians constitute a potential legal hazard?
I've copy/pasted the relevant bits from the coop to get things started, but I'm interested whether some of the legal minds at RW has considered this issue. ScepticWombat (talk) 05:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
| He may be referring to this section: Read on. "Contributions" do not necessarily need to be "cash contributions". As an educational foundation the RMF needs to look closely at this language:
|
I googled the matter and found only two references by people in the know in the last 6 years (a new congress and administration could change things). They are here and here. The IRS is studying the matter. The second link gives 4 recommendations that should be looked at collectively, but #3 is interesting: "A hosting organization’s role should be limited only to periodic monitoring and not active editing, auditing or supervision, and definitely not screening submissions ..." nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 09:57, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- I guess the problem here is what or who counts as a "hosting organization" in the case of RW/RMF? It might mean that, for instance, board members should be careful about what the do, I suppose?
- I also found #2 interesting: "Terms of Use should clearly state limitations and restrictions on activities in using the site that would not be permitted by the hosting organization if performed directly, such as electioneering and advocacy." I'm not sure RW (yet) has such a clearly worded disclaimer. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- The RMF (the group raising the money) is the host, I'm pretty sure. Point 2 is probably pretty good advice from an experienced expert, at least for CYA purposes until the IRS issues further guidelines. And it seems there is very much room for leeway in a vague disclaimer. It's probably more important to have some disclaimer than none at all, is how I read it. My guess is, much of this is silence and inaction on the part of the IRS is probably directly related to Tea Partiers complaints of being denied 501(3)(c) status in recent years, and if a GOP president & congress are elected in 2016 there would be pretty quick, longterm action written into the Internal Revenue Code to give IRS directuon on how to deal with a 501(c)(3) hosting facility's handling of user generated content. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 11:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Considering that no organization 501c3 is liable for what happens on say, its forums, and that wiki software correctly attributes changes and content to users I'd say there's evidence of good faith that the board is not actively promoting a specific political cause. They promote an environment that might lead to contributors doing that in the course of their stated mission, but if audited, I think they'd have a strong case to make. This is, technically speaking, the board's concern, and none of us should be setting or attempting to set policy based on it. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 15:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- This is not about setting policy, it's about flagging issues of potential concern before they become iffy problems, though possibly the board have already considered these topics. For instance, the disclaimer would clearly need to be written by the "hosting organization", i.e. the board, and my comment was merely meant to highlight that one might be needed, not what its content ought to be (I agree with nobs that vagueness might be a good idea, but that's the board's decision).
- Given the notoriously litigious culture of the U.S., I doubt pretending that such problems will never crop up is a prudent strategy. I was also simply curious about how organisations such as wikis might safely navigate the ban on partisan campaigning, given the broad definition of that ban, the writing style on RW, and the nature of user generated content. I'm happy to see that this issue is probably not going to be a huge problem. However, it seems that board members might have to be careful about when and how they engage in conflicts or controversies on RW, but I'm still a bit unsure of that. I'm really relieved that I wasn't eligible for the board and hence doesn't have to worry about it personally, but it's probably a good idea if the board members talk this over and find out if they are under any special constraints (if they haven't done so already, of course). ScepticWombat (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Considering that no organization 501c3 is liable for what happens on say, its forums, and that wiki software correctly attributes changes and content to users I'd say there's evidence of good faith that the board is not actively promoting a specific political cause. They promote an environment that might lead to contributors doing that in the course of their stated mission, but if audited, I think they'd have a strong case to make. This is, technically speaking, the board's concern, and none of us should be setting or attempting to set policy based on it. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 15:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- The RMF (the group raising the money) is the host, I'm pretty sure. Point 2 is probably pretty good advice from an experienced expert, at least for CYA purposes until the IRS issues further guidelines. And it seems there is very much room for leeway in a vague disclaimer. It's probably more important to have some disclaimer than none at all, is how I read it. My guess is, much of this is silence and inaction on the part of the IRS is probably directly related to Tea Partiers complaints of being denied 501(3)(c) status in recent years, and if a GOP president & congress are elected in 2016 there would be pretty quick, longterm action written into the Internal Revenue Code to give IRS directuon on how to deal with a 501(c)(3) hosting facility's handling of user generated content. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 11:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
There are several things that RMF should pay attention to. In the field of tax law, things are ever changing, and it's my guess there will be further guidance supplied by the IRS in the coming two or three years, as well as changes from Congress. The links above basically are discussing Comments sections on blogs of non-profits. This would be akin to article talk pages on a wiki. Namespace on an open wiki would be a more specialized, and less common form of user generated content. RW now has its mission statement, but experience says there probably should be some "Terms of Usage" (there probably does not have to be an "Accept" or "I Agree" box or anything, as of now) page with language that could be culled from another wiki with user generated mainspace and a less formal Terms of Usage statement (notice I'm avoiding saying "agreement" or "policy", just "Terms of Usage statement", for now). The statement should simply say in effect, "RW is a 501(c)(3) and as such we cannot promote nor oppose candidates for public office", as well as something to the effect of educating people on the vital issues of the day regarding psuedoscience. IOW, enough to discourage somebody with an agenda to use mainspace as a promotion or attack site.
I've seen enough over the years, mostly in the field of labor law and elsewhere, were the failure of a business to have a written policy, statement, or guideline ultimately led to the business getting fucked when it got challenged. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer swirling in yur Dads' bag. 21:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Basically, not having an official policy is the same as simply delegating the policy-making to the mob. I just want to clarify: I'm NOT saying that by taking a political "side" in itself RW is doing something "illegal" as a 501c agency(aside from arguably the Ron Paul stuff perhaps), but that in my opinion it should be made transparent to donors and as to the policies whether made by mob rule or "official" policies made by the board/bylaws, the donors have a right to know the REAL policies and this should be transparent. "The Mob" has been delegated defacto policy making "powers" for RW/RMF. They collectively act as the effective defacto "executive" and "judicial" branch of the RMF to the board's legislative branch. Really I don't care about strict legalistic adherence to the legal scripture, my issue is with the duplicitous policy positions, to me I think it is not really fair to donors or would-be contributors. Going to contact the RMF, and until I see what the response is (or isn't) I'm going to leave it at that. Till then I'm done commenting on this topic on RW. LogicMaster777 (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- What 501(c)3 ultimately means under U.S. Tax law is, while a private entity such as Conservapedia is free to say anything about a living person up to and including slander (assuming they are willing to bare risks of civil damages), RW must pretend to show neutrality toward candidates for public office. Now let's say there's been unsavory information in a non-candidate's bio for ten years and tomorrow he/she decided to run for city council. That bio would probably have to be revised. Conserve pedi a is under no such stricture. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer swirling in yur Dads' bag. 18:45, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Good day!
I just registered on RationalWiki though I have known and used this website for years. I would be intrested in translating existing articles on here into German. Compared, Germany has a rather small creationist community, but especially where I grew up, there are quite a few. So I thought it would be a very good thing, if more people who are searching online for help and answers would find German articles to get into the base of the discussion. When I got into the discussion I found myself kind of left "alone", as there are only few German websites who collect so much on the topic, especially about the big young-earth-creationist community in the US, who constantly try to pump their beliefs into German heads. I've come across quite a lot people here who introduce their books and videos into the German "market".
I just assume it is generally welcome. I could use some basic information how to create articles in different languages and post them on here, so they would be linked to the original one. I am not yet familiar with wiki system so please excuse any error in form.
Greetings from Germany,
Herzglass--Herzglass (talk) 11:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
- Funny, I've thought that we didn't have many German contributors because Psiram/EsoWatch already existed.
- Anyway, if you really want to contribute to RW instead of somewhere else: See Help:Contents for a general introduction to wiki-editing. As for article translation, the general practice has been to create pages in the particular language and put them in the appropriate language category, using one of these templates in the article in English to link to the respective other-language one (Template:De already exists). See RationalWiki:Languages for a bit more information. The Russian translation effort managed to gain enough participants to be spun off into a separate wiki, http://ru.rationalwiki.org. --ZooGuard (talk) 11:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
- Guten Tag, Herzglass. We can always do with more contributors, and translation efforts are always appreciated around these parts.--Madman (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)The Madman
Believing any and all conspiracies to have no veracity puts a man in the same category as his conversely 'deranged' counterpart. Just saying.— Unsigned, by: 71.81.215.203 / talk / contribs
- Conspiracy theories are not the same thing as actually-existing conspiracies. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 01:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
PROOF!!! that RationalWiki is doing just fine
- Moved here from RationalWiki:Saloon Bar--ZooGuard (talk) 17:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Note: Nutty Roux thinks the following post is an irrelevant distraction from his very important opinion that people he doesn't like are ruinous garbage, regardless of how many of them are editing. His opinion is very important, and definitely merits putting a passive-aggressive disclaimer in front of someone else's post.
Here to settle the perennial debate of whether RW is dying:
Notes:
- That massive spike in February 2013 is from when Brasov ran a massive vandalism attack on us. He singlehandedly added 150+ "editors" to the counter, but they were all IP accounts that got blocked after three or so vandal edits.
- Editors were counted using Special:Editcount, checking each month since our founding and tallying up the number of editors with 3 or more edits for that month.
- A threshold of 3 edits to qualify as "active" was used to filter out spam accounts and new users who fix two typos then never come back again.
- These numbers are off by 1 or 2 per month. I'm using data I originally gathered in mid-2014, and due to deleted pages and revisions, a small number of barely-qualifying users get bumped off over time. Recalculate these same numbers a year from now, and you'll have lost another 1-2 per month. This decay rate is actually pretty reasonable and there's no reason to panic about it.
In brief:
- Our number of editors is stable.
- Last I knew, our visitor count was about 2 million unique visitors per month. If visitor count was falling significantly, Trent or David would've said something.
- We aren't freaking dying. The old guard just needs to get over itself.
Radioactive Misanthrope 01:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Um, Stabby, you ARE part of the old guard. Noisemobile (talk) 01:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- In my heart I'm the same fresh-faced young rebel who joined in 2007.
Radioactive Misanthrope 01:26, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- In my heart I'm the same fresh-faced young rebel who joined in 2007.
- *summons Christopher Monckton to cherry-pick the data* 141.134.75.236 (talk) 01:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Get over itself? They're all but gone. If you're not just popping offer because there's been some mention of older editors leaving, I congratulate you on completely missing the point. Nutty Roux (talk) 02:44, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- I suppose your point is that the current community is garbage, and it's driving away the old guard.
- But of course, the original old guard was dead by the end of 2009, when PalMD, AmesG, AKjeldsen, Interpreter, Icewedge, Hojimachong, GodlessLiberal, and others I remember fondly were gone. This is the second set of "old guard" we're losing. These things work in cycles; we're losing 2009-2010 veterans today. We already lost the 2007-2008 ones. A couple more years and we'll start losing 2011-2012-era editors, then the 2013-14 ones, and so on. Each set gets replaced by new users, who then get tired and fade away after a few years.
- And I'm getting real tired of passing references to "the old days" by people who weren't even here for them. Hell, you joined in March 2009, by which point you'd missed my heyday, as well as the heyday of everyone else who was big in 2007 and 2008.
Radioactive Misanthrope 03:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's fucking crazy how "kids these days" can be 2 years. I mean, at some point it becomes a Theseus' ship question. If none of the articles are the same, none of the editors are the same, and none of the style is the same, is it the same rationalwiki? (Yes, probably). Ikanreed (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- That spike in February '13 -- is that when there was a brief but intense influx of gender/identity politics/social justice-oriented editors combined with the Facebook group blowing up? I remember that as being later in the year, but can't remember what else would have caused such a sudden spurt.... Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) I will never understand, especially within the last year, this community's obsession with alienating the so-called "old guard" (a label used so casually that it's really meaningless). A major reason that I am sick and tired of this place is because, especially in the last year or so, I've had more and more instances of my opinions being ignored or dismissed simply because "OMG!! OLD GUARD!!!" Like it or not, I'm a member of this community, too. And like it or not, I'm still a contributor here and still care about how this place looks. How/why does my having a different perspective on how I want things, and its implied correlation to the time I've been here, qualify its instant dismissal? It would seem to me that villainizing the "old guard" is little more than a code word; an othering of people we disagree with so that we can have an easier time ignoring their contributions here, and can more easily ignore any questions and skepticism that is raised. This is the same level of bullshit that causes normally level-headed people like myself to fly off the handle, act with contempt towards the current crop of regulars, and, yes, leave. In my case, it's the casual vilifying of us older editors that is my prime reason for no longer caring about the direction this place, and by extension the RMF, takes, and that includes taking my money elsewhere come fundraising time. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 05:44, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not really buying it. "Old guard" as a dismissal doesn't come up much. It comes up a lot as an excuse for why newer editors are destroying this wiki or whatever. I don't think anyone has said that long time contributors are a problem. Ikanreed (talk) 06:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oh? This whole shitstorm last autumn wound up boiling down to certain editors playing upon the "mean old guard" meme, even though it started with Brxbrx doing something uncalled for. And here's another example, of which I was NOT a party. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- I just finished reading your first example. I detect zero resentment of you for being an old-timer and a lot of Brxbrx's whingery and Tielec01 arguing against you — based on the grounds that you weren't upholding the Good Old Days' ethos enough. I pray your second example actually demonstrates what you claim.
Radioactive Misanthrope 09:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your second example features three people, only one of whom (Brxbrx) is still here, directly accusing the old guard. Seven other people weighed in defending them.
- I'm extraordinarily disappointed with your fall from grace, RNS. At some point, you've become a delicate flower who interprets a majority of people supporting your side as evidence that you're unfairly persecuted. You'd have been better off linking persecution complex in your earlier post.
Radioactive Misanthrope 09:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- I just finished reading your first example. I detect zero resentment of you for being an old-timer and a lot of Brxbrx's whingery and Tielec01 arguing against you — based on the grounds that you weren't upholding the Good Old Days' ethos enough. I pray your second example actually demonstrates what you claim.
- Oh? This whole shitstorm last autumn wound up boiling down to certain editors playing upon the "mean old guard" meme, even though it started with Brxbrx doing something uncalled for. And here's another example, of which I was NOT a party. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not really buying it. "Old guard" as a dismissal doesn't come up much. It comes up a lot as an excuse for why newer editors are destroying this wiki or whatever. I don't think anyone has said that long time contributors are a problem. Ikanreed (talk) 06:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) I will never understand, especially within the last year, this community's obsession with alienating the so-called "old guard" (a label used so casually that it's really meaningless). A major reason that I am sick and tired of this place is because, especially in the last year or so, I've had more and more instances of my opinions being ignored or dismissed simply because "OMG!! OLD GUARD!!!" Like it or not, I'm a member of this community, too. And like it or not, I'm still a contributor here and still care about how this place looks. How/why does my having a different perspective on how I want things, and its implied correlation to the time I've been here, qualify its instant dismissal? It would seem to me that villainizing the "old guard" is little more than a code word; an othering of people we disagree with so that we can have an easier time ignoring their contributions here, and can more easily ignore any questions and skepticism that is raised. This is the same level of bullshit that causes normally level-headed people like myself to fly off the handle, act with contempt towards the current crop of regulars, and, yes, leave. In my case, it's the casual vilifying of us older editors that is my prime reason for no longer caring about the direction this place, and by extension the RMF, takes, and that includes taking my money elsewhere come fundraising time. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 05:44, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- That spike in February '13 -- is that when there was a brief but intense influx of gender/identity politics/social justice-oriented editors combined with the Facebook group blowing up? I remember that as being later in the year, but can't remember what else would have caused such a sudden spurt.... Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's fucking crazy how "kids these days" can be 2 years. I mean, at some point it becomes a Theseus' ship question. If none of the articles are the same, none of the editors are the same, and none of the style is the same, is it the same rationalwiki? (Yes, probably). Ikanreed (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- I find that surprising, since from eyeballing the recent changes it seems we are getting fewer and fewer edits. We did get the usual winter uptick this year too, but I could swear some years back 500+ edits per day wasn't that rare. --Someon (talk) 11:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have noticed that there are fewer editors with no life beyond RationalWiki. 2008 through 2010, most months had between 2 and 4 editors breaking 900 edits per month. Nowadays, it's uncommon to see even one person hitting 600. However, it's worth noting this isn't necessarily a bad thing: in the old days, the wiki was dominated by a handful of heavyweight editors. They drove policy and a lot of conflict (I say that know I was one of them), and their torrent of edits meant they could set the tone for articles across the wiki with little input from others.
- Those days are over. Yes, robust communities tend to have a core of main users, but it's unhealthy for such a narrow group to have that much influence. We're actually more democratic than ever before — hence the sniping by Nutty Roux and RNS, who are frustrated with how their opinions aren't given the deference they once had.
Radioactive Misanthrope 12:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not to mention wikiepdia isn't dead because their new article explosion is over. Rationalwiki has definetly hit the 80/20 threshold of covering pseudoscience. And there's not really any activity on conservapedia to mock anymore either. And every major theological idea has been hit to some degree or another. And even social justice stuff is pretty filled out, in spite of a lot of editors hating it. Ikanreed (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- As a noob, I've read many RW articles where I've just enjoyed the laugh and moved on. Most of my edits have been minor grammar, typo and +snark stuff. Why is that a problem? Lack of recent edits suggests that those articles were already near enough right (though I did once add a good-sized section into an article where I had local knowledge). Lots of WP articles are stable for the same reason. ProblemChimp (talk) 00:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the demographic analysis recently (don't have the link at hand) most of RW's readers have high school education or below. Seems you have two opportunity/choices here: (1) take the ball and run with it using contributors who can pander/entertain/educate that market, or (2) recruit from that group of readers with high school education and below. nobsISIS is a thorn in the world's ass and will be removed. 01:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- I know the Alexa rankings have demographic info about us Rob, but I don't know how accurate it is. Tielec01 (talk) 01:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- As I recall, Trent hates Alexa because it's so unreliable, and prefers not to cite it for any sort of insight into RW.
Radioactive Misanthrope 11:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- As I recall, Trent hates Alexa because it's so unreliable, and prefers not to cite it for any sort of insight into RW.
- I know the Alexa rankings have demographic info about us Rob, but I don't know how accurate it is. Tielec01 (talk) 01:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the demographic analysis recently (don't have the link at hand) most of RW's readers have high school education or below. Seems you have two opportunity/choices here: (1) take the ball and run with it using contributors who can pander/entertain/educate that market, or (2) recruit from that group of readers with high school education and below. nobsISIS is a thorn in the world's ass and will be removed. 01:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- As a noob, I've read many RW articles where I've just enjoyed the laugh and moved on. Most of my edits have been minor grammar, typo and +snark stuff. Why is that a problem? Lack of recent edits suggests that those articles were already near enough right (though I did once add a good-sized section into an article where I had local knowledge). Lots of WP articles are stable for the same reason. ProblemChimp (talk) 00:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not to mention wikiepdia isn't dead because their new article explosion is over. Rationalwiki has definetly hit the 80/20 threshold of covering pseudoscience. And there's not really any activity on conservapedia to mock anymore either. And every major theological idea has been hit to some degree or another. And even social justice stuff is pretty filled out, in spite of a lot of editors hating it. Ikanreed (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Those days are over. Yes, robust communities tend to have a core of main users, but it's unhealthy for such a narrow group to have that much influence. We're actually more democratic than ever before — hence the sniping by Nutty Roux and RNS, who are frustrated with how their opinions aren't given the deference they once had.
Communities change with time, it would be flat-out amazing if they didn't. Typical participant lifecycle in almost any online community is 12-18 months. Clay Shirky: A group is its own worst enemy. Me, based on previous discussion here: Internet fundamentalism doesn't actually work. Nostalgia is another word for brain rot. You can't have the good old days back, not only because now isn't then but you are a different person now - David Gerard (talk) 10:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm about as "old" as "old guard" can get, having originally been a member of RW1. I think that some sort of conflict began between the "the old guard" and the "hot young bloods" began pretty early in the life of RW2. For instance one of the earliest fights was over the perceived excessive interest in CP. Anyway, with time the "hot young bloods" inevitably transom into "the old guard" and the cycle repeats.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Just saw this thread, I'm a little incredulous that I have been accused of playing the 'mean old guard' meme. Having said that; I (an obscure nobody) and Brx (the wiki's most admired user) did bully the old guard including the board, the moderators and the techs. In the future we need to ensure that the power balance I have over these users is redressed. RNS allow me to offer an unqualified apology to you for daring to question your decisions - what was I thinking?
- Anyway, love the analysis it has shades of Larron whose posts are sorely missed - I think the bombastic title is great; although as others have noted, the argument centres around the quality of new editors rather than quantity. Not taking a side on that issue, DGs link is good too, for anyone that hasn't read it. Tielec01 (talk) 00:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- I find myself wondering what was special about February 2013. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 05:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- A massive vandal attack that added 150 or so "editors" to the list. It's in the notes section under the chart.
Radioactive Misanthrope 07:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Those were the good old days & we shall never see their like again. Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- At least not while open proxies are blocked - David Gerard (talk) 09:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Those were the good old days & we shall never see their like again. Ŵêâŝêîôîď
- A massive vandal attack that added 150 or so "editors" to the list. It's in the notes section under the chart.
Looks to me like the site stopped growing in May 2011. Just looking at this particular metric, anyway. And if editors making fewer edits is a "good thing"... ħuman
01:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Did someone say something about circlejerks? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 01:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
FWIW
--larron (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- Hey, long time no see, dude. Hope everything's going ok.
- And huh. Thought Gamergate would show up in the most edited list given its relative popularity and being a target for vandalism early on (then again, it started very late in the year and the write-protect came pretty quickly, so not as much time for such edits). Noir LeSable (talk) 08:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the fossil record, the Gamergate article had nearly 500 edits by the end of the year, and its talk page had over 1,200, so I can't see why it's been missed off the chart when there are pages with a tenth of that on there. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the fossil record, the Gamergate article had nearly 500 edits by the end of the year, and its talk page had over 1,200, so I can't see why it's been missed off the chart when there are pages with a tenth of that on there. Wėąṣėḷőįď
| recent edits at different wikis | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| RationalWiki | Citizendium | Wikipedia (DE) | Conservapedia |
I'm quite pleased with these snapshots of the activity at various wikis: Gamergate is still going strong here at RW. The pictures are less than 100KByte big, and you have to look at the original file to profit from the embedded links.--larron (talk) 14:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
So
Let's say that RationalWiki has less activity. What has caused this? What can we do to increase activity? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 01:56, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- We could delete all our articles and write new ones in their stead. Uncyclopedia's tried that a couple times, but people just kept bringing back the old articles. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 02:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, but one-fourty-one, we want good ideas. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 02:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, we could advertise I guess? (Which might attract more bad editors than good ones.) 141.134.75.236 (talk) 02:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- I would be more interested in talking about improving activity, as opposed to growth for growth's sake. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 02:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "improving activity"?
- I don't think that growing RationalWiki's activity counts as "growth for growth's sake" at this time, because RationalWiki is still too small to make a large impact in the skeptical community, and gaining more editors (and hopefully subsequently a larger community, more articles, and better articles) will help to increase RationalWiki's importance. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 03:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think he means improving the quality of activity as opposed to increasing the quantity of activity. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:43, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Pretty much. We have a lot of stubs that, I'm assuming, are still stubs because the users we have don't have the expertise to make them into better articles. So while I, of course, hope we can keep a critical mass of active and enthusiastic editors contributing on a regular basis, if we really want to "make an impact in the skeptical community," or hey, let's dream big, instead of preaching to the choir in the sceptical community, actually making a broad impact in the general community and driving debates and changing minds, we need people who are smarter than, say, me, more educated than, say, me, with more expertise and authority than, say, me. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 03:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, we need better articles for a larger impact. To get better articles, both more editors and "better" editors will help, because everyone can add a reference or write a paragraph, even though not everyone can understand what that reference says. If we assume that our editors aren't significantly increasing their education, then the only way to get "better" editors is to get new editors who happen to be "better". So it seems to me that getting more editors should definitely be a goal for RationalWiki, especially if the "critical core" is in danger. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 04:10, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Pretty much. We have a lot of stubs that, I'm assuming, are still stubs because the users we have don't have the expertise to make them into better articles. So while I, of course, hope we can keep a critical mass of active and enthusiastic editors contributing on a regular basis, if we really want to "make an impact in the skeptical community," or hey, let's dream big, instead of preaching to the choir in the sceptical community, actually making a broad impact in the general community and driving debates and changing minds, we need people who are smarter than, say, me, more educated than, say, me, with more expertise and authority than, say, me. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 03:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think he means improving the quality of activity as opposed to increasing the quantity of activity. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:43, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- I would be more interested in talking about improving activity, as opposed to growth for growth's sake. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 02:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, we could advertise I guess? (Which might attract more bad editors than good ones.) 141.134.75.236 (talk) 02:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, but one-fourty-one, we want good ideas. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 02:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Our articles are of a better standard - and a better expected standard - these days than they were before 2010, IMO. Editors are not at each other's throats as much as they were then. (You think the arguments these days are chicken coopery? Hah!) We have similar edit numbers if less people spending their entire goddamn lives here (apart from me, but I am an actively dull suburban dad who delights in not having a life).
- So basically, we need to get more n00bs interested in contributing at all - David Gerard (talk) 10:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thing is that older (i.e. long term) editors have used up all their knowledge/enthusiasm on subjects germane to RW's mission, so there are, as I see it, three ways to increase the editorship:
- 1: acquire editors with more knowledge on existing subjects - there are several instances within the last twelve or so months where this has happened.
- 2: find more subjects within the mission for editors to have a go at - Gamergate, Bitcoin etc, come to mind.
- 3: expand the mission -?
- Scream!! (talk) 13:05, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure that's it. I frequently write here about things I don't know about beforehand, so I do research to write them up. (You know you're onto a good one when you feel stupider after writing it up.) - David Gerard (talk) 13:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- 1) and 2) are laudable. 3) is less so, as I think a reasonably tight focus is what makes a non-wp wiki productive (notwithstanding some recent attempts to define some on-mission topics as off-mission). And we mustn't forget 4: Keeping existing articles up-to-date with new material. It's not as if antivax is likely to shut up shop any time soon, for example. Queexchthonic murmurings 14:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- (1) How does one "acquire" editors? (2) RationalWiki seems to do that automatically, often. Should we try to increase our coverage of current events over the level that we do now? (3) I'd be cool with a mission change. Our current mission doesn't directly mention the topics of (a) social justice, (b) non-authoritarian political extremism, (c) conspiracy theories, and (d) logic, language, and argumentation, all of which take up significant parts of RationalWikispace. But changing the mission doesn't really affect how editors act, in the same way that the new blocking policy isn't really any more influential than the old. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 16:37, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- New blocking policy? Where's that? Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 16:38, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- RW:B. (Before, the policy page was basically nothing.) FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 16:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- New blocking policy? Where's that? Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 16:38, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- (1) How does one "acquire" editors? (2) RationalWiki seems to do that automatically, often. Should we try to increase our coverage of current events over the level that we do now? (3) I'd be cool with a mission change. Our current mission doesn't directly mention the topics of (a) social justice, (b) non-authoritarian political extremism, (c) conspiracy theories, and (d) logic, language, and argumentation, all of which take up significant parts of RationalWikispace. But changing the mission doesn't really affect how editors act, in the same way that the new blocking policy isn't really any more influential than the old. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 16:37, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- 1) and 2) are laudable. 3) is less so, as I think a reasonably tight focus is what makes a non-wp wiki productive (notwithstanding some recent attempts to define some on-mission topics as off-mission). And we mustn't forget 4: Keeping existing articles up-to-date with new material. It's not as if antivax is likely to shut up shop any time soon, for example. Queexchthonic murmurings 14:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure that's it. I frequently write here about things I don't know about beforehand, so I do research to write them up. (You know you're onto a good one when you feel stupider after writing it up.) - David Gerard (talk) 13:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thing is that older (i.e. long term) editors have used up all their knowledge/enthusiasm on subjects germane to RW's mission, so there are, as I see it, three ways to increase the editorship:
Equally important is why it happened, as that informs any changes made to improve. I think the only serious charge for why has been that new people are driving the old people out, but if the old editors were really that much more active, they'd swamp out new editors. I have no alternative explanations myself. I have no idea what happened. Ikanreed (talk) 15:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Or it could just be that old editors left, for any of a host of other reasons (bored, moved to another site, felt that their field of editing was complete enough, etc.). One thing that I noticed in LArron's graphs is that the amount of Main edits has stayed mostly the same, while Conservapedia edits (which used to make up 1/3 of edits) have declined to maybe 1/20th of edits; it might be that Conservapedia-watchers have largely fallen away from RationalWiki. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 16:37, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- The rationalwiki namespace also fell off hard, if we're doing that analysis. Was it more popular to chat on the Saloon bar in the past? Ikanreed (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think there's a lot less discussion about policy, for one. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 16:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- The rationalwiki namespace also fell off hard, if we're doing that analysis. Was it more popular to chat on the Saloon bar in the past? Ikanreed (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
In which people talk about the Jews
| Go 'validly criticize' Jews somewhere else. This topic is about helping RW grow. Thanks. |
|---|
I wasn't criticising Jews at all in my statement. This is classic ad hominem. 1.227.149.34 (talk) 02:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
|
As [ZooGuard] requested
- Moved here from User talk:ZooGuard.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
That awkward moment when I claimed the community isn't declining, but it turns out we peaked in 2011 :-/
Radioactive Misanthrope 03:03, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Let's assume that this graph accurately represents "the community". "The community" went from ~80 to ~60. Not really that large of a change, but pretty sustained.
- How could RW reverse this decline? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 03:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Also: Can we get a best-fit equation for this? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 03:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- I sent you an updated Excel file that has that chart in it.
Radioactive Misanthrope 04:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- I sent you an updated Excel file that has that chart in it.
- Also: Can we get a best-fit equation for this? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 03:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The best fit for this graph certainly does show that 2007 - April 2014 peaked in 2011. But, if the best fit line is to be believed, RW has been doing well since April 2014 and is due for an upswing. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 04:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- BTW, @ZooGuard and @Weaseloid: Should we be having these discussions at the Bar, so everyone else can see 'em? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 04:19, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
And here it is extended 1 year using the best fit line. Probably a wee bit optimistic, and if the line is extended out 10 years it quadruples and then shoots into the ground. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 04:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- That's because it's not a great best fit equation for making general predictions. Excel doesn't know how to add constraints on future behaviour and just tries to match whatever best fit works best for the given data set. Also, that uptick in the final few months is skewing the data, making the best fit equation even less useful. - Grant (talk) 04:50, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. And it wasn't even a good fit in the 1st place. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 05:16, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unfortunately the "spikey" nature of that data-set makes a best fit dubious at best. I don't believe it will be possible to make further concrete predictions until we can see whether the current spike is another temporary one (as has happened several times in that data set) or the start of a longer-term trend. - Grant (talk) 05:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. And it wasn't even a good fit in the 1st place. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 05:16, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to write a Python script that queries RW and exports the result as a CSV file so you won't have to do this by hand in the future. As for the right place of the discussion, I suggest migrating this and the overlong Saloon Bar thread to a Forum page.--ZooGuard (talk) 12:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Any chance you could furnish me with the raw numbers for now? I feel the urge to bust out some DLM magic on this bad boy. Queexchthonic murmurings 2015-02-09T17:30:45
- Here's a Dropbox link to the Excel file containing all the raw numbers I gathered.
Radioactive Misanthrope 17:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Looks like two superimposed sine waves to me - one with a period on the order of 8-12 months and a much longer one that we are about half way through. Which would mean we are due for a short term drop over the next few months, but a glorious gentle recovery over the next 3 or so years. I think there is also a very small subtle linear increase underlying those two functions, perhaps on the order of 2-3 more users per year being on this list. ħuman
18:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
- How about that spike on search traffic tho ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 18:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Best fit
- This discussion was moved here from User talk:Stabby the Misanthrope.
I checked all of Excel's available best-fit lines on your data, and the best best-fit line for the number of active users is a graph with equation: Number of active users = 109.37 * (time-in-months0.2585) with an R2 of 0.781. So, according to the current graph, RationalWiki will continue to grow at an ever-decreasing rate. Whaddya think? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 01:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- That makes sense. We're not exploding, but we're definitely not shrinking. Slow growth feels like a good fit. In a couple hours I can send you an updated version with separate columns focusing on editors making 30+ edits per month and 300+ edits.
Radioactive Misanthrope 01:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Kewl. I gotta do some
realwork, but MOAR DATA is always nice. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 01:41, 2 February 2015 (UTC) - The fits are meaningless. You probably have to use generalized least squares instead of ordinary. I suspect the bars are all within error of each other. Sterile (talk) 00:38, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- No Sterile. Nutty is wrong, RA is right. That's all he gives a fuck about. Acei9 00:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- @Sterile: I'm new to anything like this. Does Excel have that capability? If not, what program should be used? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 00:51, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- No Sterile. Nutty is wrong, RA is right. That's all he gives a fuck about. Acei9 00:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Kewl. I gotta do some
- Beware forward projecting on arbitrary data. Unless you have a causative model that aligns with your correlation, you know very little. Ikanreed (talk) 14:33, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- There is no particular reason to fit the data. There is real no basis for a mathematical model to fit to, and hence and mathematical function is arbitrary. Basically, the data are and any fit is bullshit unless you have a reason otherwise. Sterile (talk) 16:18, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Right. That's what I was saying. It can be impossible to tell a quadratic equation from a sine wave from a hyperbola from an (inverted) logarithm from a exponential curve, over some data ranges. And that's when your data is perfect and has no errors or noise. Ikanreed (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's even worse than that. If you expect pressure to be inversely proportional to 1/volume because little atoms exert small amount of force and decreasing the volume increases that force per area, and hence the smaller volume, the higher the pressure. Here, there is no real basis for a particular model, no connection between number of editors and months. (Maybe a steady state over time if there is an editor "half-life", hence y = a*x, after a particular time, but even that has to particular reason to be valid.) Just because Excel has different regressions doesn't give you a valid reason for using them. You can plot the data with fits all you want, but they have no meaning and certainly no predictive value. Sterile (talk) 16:41, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Right. That's what I was saying. It can be impossible to tell a quadratic equation from a sine wave from a hyperbola from an (inverted) logarithm from a exponential curve, over some data ranges. And that's when your data is perfect and has no errors or noise. Ikanreed (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- There is no particular reason to fit the data. There is real no basis for a mathematical model to fit to, and hence and mathematical function is arbitrary. Basically, the data are and any fit is bullshit unless you have a reason otherwise. Sterile (talk) 16:18, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Another point to ponder: Though our overall rate of deletions is reasonable (according to my sampling ca. 4.6%), it isn't constant, but decreasing over time, especially as many of the older articles in the former Conservapedia-namespace were deleted. Therefore one can assume that editors of the early years are underrepresented. --larron (talk) 17:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
A possible model (one that mimics many websites) is an exponential to steady state. (Steady state as some editors arrive and some leave at corresponding half lives.). That would give a function like y=a-b*exp(-k*t). If you believe that (I don't), the editorship would top-off at a steady state of around 353 editors. But a sudden influx or outflux due to an event or slow decline in interest over time could easily change that. Sterile (talk) 17:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- So, what we know from serious analysis is that we don't actually know much? Ikanreed (talk) 17:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
DLMs with R
Some quick and dirty DLM modelling. A DLM model with a trend term, MLE estimates used for V and W (because the crappy R package I found doesn't handle discounting methods), on the 'users with x+ edits' data. In all these, green is the data, brown the one step ahead forecasts (with 95% DI), orange the estimate of the trend parameter (with 95% CI), red=zero.
The trend estimate is somewhat conservative. Better models would incorporate the spike in the 3+ edit data, and try to introduce different trend phases in order to capture the behaviour. Over-fitting might be a problem in that case, as would assumptions regarding the underlying situation. In any case, I'm not being paid for this, so that's enough work. Queexchthonic murmurings 14:02, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
RationalWiki:Content dumps
Since people are interested in doing statistics, could you post a full (incl. all revisions) site dump? Maybe you could even host it on https://archive.org/. Right now the current-revs-only http://rationalwiki.org/dumps/rwcurrent.gz is almost a year old. --Someon (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- archive.org!! of course!!!!
- I actually have the anonymised versions of the Squid logs going back a few years too - that raw data can go on archive.org as well. (Then someone can build a http://stats.grok.se equivalent if they like.) I'll try to remember to get in touch with them ... - David Gerard (talk) 16:01, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Feb 2015
In Feb 2015 there were 942 users with 1+ edits (versus 941 in January), 358 users with 3+ edits (versus 365), 76 users with 30+ edits (versus 78), 11 users with 300+ edits (versus 11), and 1 user with 1000+ edits (versus 1). Since February is 10% shorter than January, seems like a good sign. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 18:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
| charts |
|---|
Probably need to click the image for a good picture. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 22:13, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
- September 2014 still seems inexplicable. Ikanreed (talk) 14:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
- It was just after Gamergate started, perhaps it was Gater trolls? Bicyclewheel
20:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
- In 14-Sep the number of editors went down, maybe to go harass Ms. Quinn instead of RW? Cømrade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 21:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
- It was just after Gamergate started, perhaps it was Gater trolls? Bicyclewheel
I'd love to see that chart with the vertical axis changed to number of edits - so there would be a total edits top line, and areas below it showing the "influence" of editors with >x edits. ħuman
18:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Slow weekend
Usually RW hits 400 edits per day, but we've had maybe 600 over the last 3 days. What gives? FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ﹐ Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 01:00, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that this is the right place for this conversation.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:19, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
- Not precisely a wrong one. Dips happen. G*m*rg*t* was quiet. I was busy - David Gerard (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
- @ZG, where else would this go? Saloon?
- @DG, sounds right. Looks like you and Ryulong were both busy, since GG's had only a few dozen edits. oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 21:00, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
- Not precisely a wrong one. Dips happen. G*m*rg*t* was quiet. I was busy - David Gerard (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Edits, edits by amount of edits
Here's the edits. Excel: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d7l0xfvr52ytnod/RationalWiki%20users.xlsx?dl=0
RW's doesn't seem to be doing so hot. We've got maybe 33% more users than in '11-'13, but less or comparable edits. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 01:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- IS there a motive to trying to prove we're "not doing so hot"?--Miekal 01:37, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's useful information. We do need more editors - we have way more content than curators. I believe Conservapedia space has gone quiet, and there were people for whom that was their primary interest - David Gerard (talk) 11:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- LArron's graph has CP as maybe 20% of edits (now maybe 1%), while mainspace edits have continued to rise regardless. FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 14:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- @DG: If RW wanted to get more editors, how would it? 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 01:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- Recruit your friends!! JOIN THE CULT - David Gerard (talk) 08:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- Have you/the RMF considered reinvesting any of the funds raised into any form of advertising or recruitment? For example, you can run Facebook advert campaigns for only for a few bucks a day and generate a lot of engagement. You have to be a bit careful with the targeting and keep an eye on what's happening, but it may be worth trying for a few days to see if it's worthwhile. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 01:12, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
- I wouldn't consider it very worthwhile. The Official FB Page has 3000 likes and a few regular readers, the Twitter about the same; they occasionally net an editor or two. I've barely posted to either in a few weeks, been stupidly busy. - David Gerard (talk) 22:39, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
- Have you/the RMF considered reinvesting any of the funds raised into any form of advertising or recruitment? For example, you can run Facebook advert campaigns for only for a few bucks a day and generate a lot of engagement. You have to be a bit careful with the targeting and keep an eye on what's happening, but it may be worth trying for a few days to see if it's worthwhile. ωεαşεζόίď
- Recruit your friends!! JOIN THE CULT - David Gerard (talk) 08:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- @DG: If RW wanted to get more editors, how would it? 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 01:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- LArron's graph has CP as maybe 20% of edits (now maybe 1%), while mainspace edits have continued to rise regardless. FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 14:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's useful information. We do need more editors - we have way more content than curators. I believe Conservapedia space has gone quiet, and there were people for whom that was their primary interest - David Gerard (talk) 11:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Mar 2015
| moar charts |
|---|
Excel: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d7l0xfvr52ytnod/RationalWiki%20users.xlsx?dl=0 Cømrade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 22:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
April 2015
April 2015 is about 2/3 complete; it has had 7893 edits in 17 of 30 days. If we assume the same rate of edits through the month, that puts us at 13930 edits. That puts us 17.57% ahead of March (11847 edits) and 8.681% behind February 2015 (15253 edits). FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 00:47, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
So... it's a source of contention. It's a source of concern for articles about living people. It's sometimes a source of excuses for bad information. Is "Snarky point of view" a tradition for tradition's sake?
It's certainly true that we don't want a neutral point of view when our focused topics are so often not deserving of fairness, and love the balance fallacy to give themselves false legitimacy. But is snarky the right tone anymore?
I'd like to raise some other possibilities to consider. Please post your subsections if you have ideas. Ikanreed (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
A RATIONAL point of view
So... this one is a natural consideration, and I'm inclined not to look it because of how little people tend to misunderstand rationalism, and how much debate it would foment. Ikanreed (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- I am supportive of something other than snark. If RW is to be a well regarded resource, it should have good information and the snark gets in the way. Despite the we're-not-an-encyclopedia thing, we largely are inasmuch we provide information. Nothing wrong with good rhetoric outside of logos, but it can be awfully distracting. Sterile (talk) 03:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- I also am supportive of something other than snark. Rationalism would be a preferred far above snark as (a) that is he fundamental premise of this wiki, (b) snark is not effective. I'm sure it's fun for the snarker, but the method gets in the way of the message as giving time to that other view and snark undercuts the whole notion of rationalism is a way to handle things. Rationalism as preferred first choice then, and if you want to talk rationalism then focus on the rationalism as good as can be to maximize the credit and benefit seen of rationalism. With awareness that (a) like everything it has features, rules and bounds, so there will be limits to where it conveys well or not; and (b) advocate folks to value rationalism and allow as part of inclusive set of approaches. I'm not stressed if an audience likes empiricism sometimes and rationalism other times, I think a mix is normal and better and exclude mixed values would drastically limit the audience. Markbassett (talk) 04:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- I do not believe that rationalism is the fundamental premise of this wiki. I would like to believe that the wiki serves an audience in search of information uncontaminated by bullshit, using that word in a sense consistent with Prof. Frankfurt's work on the subject.
- The RationalWiki audience may be viewed in very general terms as including the choir, which can be fun to preach to, the open-minded middle susceptible to persuasion, and those who are impervious to reason, humor, or anything short of an authoritative smack up alongside the head. Note well: most folks live their lives blissfully unaware that RationalWiki even exists. I don't think the RW mission includes outreach to that last group, but I've been wrong before.
- I emphatically agree that a mix of empiricism and rationality is far better than excluding either one. One without the other is heads without tails, or vice versa. Rationality, without a base of empirically-supported premises, is so useless as to be laughable, possibly excepting investigations of pure logic or mathematics. Alec Sanderson (talk) 04:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
An honest (but factual) point of view
Here's my main proposal. We should address subjects for what they are, calling a spade a shovel, and calling a hopelessly made up idea exactly that. Not shying away from having a perspective, but trying to incorporate as much valid scientific fact as possible along the way. Ikanreed (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think the problem is more how some folks interpret "snarky." My understanding has always been that SPOV was there as a way to suggest that while we should still be properly debunking and countering arguments rationally, there's still place for a bit of sarcasm or a light quip here and there to emphasize our points. I suppose I always saw it as a way to indicate that perhaps we shouldn't be as sterile as Wikipedia, not as an excuse to let "snark" get in the way of actual constructive dialogue. - Grant (talk) 16:38, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, I'll get behind eliminating snark. I'll even enforce it ruthlessly. I'm very good at ruthless. It's how I operate IRL. --Castaigne (talk) 19:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
If it's really funny, great. But more often than not the snark on this wiki is less than worthwhile.
- Instead of SciPOV vs SnaPOV, it should be SciPOV then SnaPOV. First, get referenced. Second, get snarky. Good humor always improves a point, but the point must be established first. Unfortunately, many RW articles snark before they ref, which turns RW into pooflinging. Should the Community Standards and/or "What is a RationalWiki article" be rewritten to emphasize references over snark, and editors encouraged to avoid unreferenced snark (UnSn)? FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 03:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have to agree. While there are some articles where the tone is more "ranting blogpost-y" than article-y, actively trying to purge all of the snark would essentially require a massive overhaul of the wiki. Rather than an outright removal, making sure all bases are covered and preferably ref'd would definitely keep the wiki from looking like it's responding to viewpoints with "lololololol look how silly it is because it is silly lololololol". Noir LeSable (talk) 09:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
A cynically/sneeringly honest point of view
I always considered the snarky point of view as mostly this. It obviously strengthens the blow of the cynicism/sneer if you can back it up with scientific facts, so there's nothing wrong with stressing the importance of laying out the facts in the article (and <ref>ing them). 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Keep snarky, you doofus
I guess this subjection is for chastising me as suggesting changes for no reason, or promoting the original POV on grounds not addressed until now. Ikanreed (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
ummmmm.
Do you have any idea how much work it would be to remove the snark? You're proposing basically re-writing the wiki. It is also a dumb idea. It is taking Playboy, keeping the world-class essays, cultural coverage, and other fine writing the magazine has always featured, taking out the naked girls, and turning it into .... a magazine that literally nobody would buy. Rationalwiki was born of an unholy marriage of pro-science activism and Dennis-Miller-When-He-Was-Still-Funny biting sarcastic humour. What therefore GOAT hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 03:39, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- I know our underlying raison d'etre is serious but, for me, an important part of RW is that it should be fun. Fun to read, fun to edit, fun to be part of. We can't compete with the likes of Wikipedia - nor should we - but we do aim to be a valid resource. We can't catch or keep the readers with the sort of informed in-depth analysis that a wide range of editors can bring to the table - although it would be nice if we could - so we need to keep their attention with wit among the wisdom, or, failing that, snark.
- And, yeah, I know, one person's snark is another person's juvenilia but with a bit of work.... Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 10:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- there is a miniscule line between snark and being a prick and It is no surprise that snark is the favoured tool of pricks the world over. There is too much back slapping over zingers delivered to or about acceptable targets that the line being crossed is missed. It does not make this site a very welcoming place, particularly if your point of view differs from the orthodoxy. Of course this is all compounded by the fact that snark has never been particularly funny to begin with. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- My impression is snarky point of view seems like it came from a place of "let's not be wikipedia, let's tell people what's actually going on, but not take ourselves too seriously". And that worked in an environment where everyone was already friends, and no one was suing. Well the taking things seriously part has now officially happened, and untangling that web and figuring out what best fits the mission is kinda hard. Ikanreed (talk) 23:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- Let's not confuse "fun" with "libellous." Snark doesn't have to extend to include stuff that is actionable. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 23:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think I was making that conflation, but thanks for the input. It's just the case that by the demands of law rational-wiki has at least some 100% serious business to contend with. Ikanreed (talk) 02:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- You did say "and no one was suing." I just don't want the conversation we need to have -- about minimizing our tendency to undermine the project with statements we shouldn't be making -- to get pushed into the territory of "let's make RW what it was never meant to be", ie no fun. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 02:48, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm with DMR on this one. I've always found RW fun, both to edit and also for information. I honestly use the site for reference on certain topics instead of WP because it's a damn site easier to get the info here than trawl through dry as a bone WP - also the fact RW isn't afraid to call BS what it is also makes it genuinely valuable and informative. TheEgyptian¿Dígame? 11:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- You did say "and no one was suing." I just don't want the conversation we need to have -- about minimizing our tendency to undermine the project with statements we shouldn't be making -- to get pushed into the territory of "let's make RW what it was never meant to be", ie no fun. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 02:48, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think I was making that conflation, but thanks for the input. It's just the case that by the demands of law rational-wiki has at least some 100% serious business to contend with. Ikanreed (talk) 02:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Let's not confuse "fun" with "libellous." Snark doesn't have to extend to include stuff that is actionable. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 23:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- My impression is snarky point of view seems like it came from a place of "let's not be wikipedia, let's tell people what's actually going on, but not take ourselves too seriously". And that worked in an environment where everyone was already friends, and no one was suing. Well the taking things seriously part has now officially happened, and untangling that web and figuring out what best fits the mission is kinda hard. Ikanreed (talk) 23:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- there is a miniscule line between snark and being a prick and It is no surprise that snark is the favoured tool of pricks the world over. There is too much back slapping over zingers delivered to or about acceptable targets that the line being crossed is missed. It does not make this site a very welcoming place, particularly if your point of view differs from the orthodoxy. Of course this is all compounded by the fact that snark has never been particularly funny to begin with. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Keep it Snarky
So everyone knows you're a bunch of smug know-it-all halfwits who think mindlessly parroting the PC zeitgeist established by the powers that be is some kind of intellectual achievement. 125.61.100.2 (talk) 02:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- So, are you from KiA, the Neo-Reactionaries, 8Chan, or someone else who's pissed at RW today? :D --Castaigne (talk) 05:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Long live goat! I would leave in an instant if there were no snark. Snark drew me in in the first place. Snark is poking fun and the pompous half-wits (in a non-libelous manner). Snark is not even necessarily untrue. I had one snarky comment removed once for being "too snarky" (circumcision:
"the most unkindest cut of all"); that's fine; I don't care, I'm not going to pick a fight about it. But no snark: forget it; I'll go back to Wikipedia for the occasional edit. Bongolian (talk) 06:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)- It is true that one of RW's huge strengths is being able to call a spade a fucking shovel when it's important to do so - David Gerard (talk) 12:37, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- "the most unkindest cut of all" That's what snark should look like: funny and lighthearted, not awkward, hateful, editorializing, and empty. Nutty Roux (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- It is true that one of RW's huge strengths is being able to call a spade a fucking shovel when it's important to do so - David Gerard (talk) 12:37, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Long live goat! I would leave in an instant if there were no snark. Snark drew me in in the first place. Snark is poking fun and the pompous half-wits (in a non-libelous manner). Snark is not even necessarily untrue. I had one snarky comment removed once for being "too snarky" (circumcision:
Write WAY better
Suggestion: Lazy snark is easy. Understated snark is harder, but way way better writing. Unless you're pretty confident you can channel Stephen Fry levels of subtle snark, play it straight - David Gerard (talk) 12:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Definitely! Snark must past some form of the Fry Test. Even just the semi-Fry Test (like Stephen Fry using only half his brain). MarmotHead (talk) 18:18, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
The Snark is Life
Snark is an integral part of effective rationalism. It's used by Orac, Skeptic's dictionary, Bad Science, Quackwatch and goodness know how many others. Even outside rationalism, it's oft-used on (sometimes accidentally) educational websites like Popehat. Not only does it give colour to an otherwise dry and boring article, but when describing nonsense the use of a straight tone can lend credence to a daft idea. The way it is written about influences what we think of it. Every source on effective communication recommends the use of some humour in presentation. If the RW snark is sometimes lazy, it's a wiki: get in there and improve it. If RW hadn't had snark, not only would I have never started editing it, I would never have bothered reading it. Queexchthonic murmurings 12:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Simplicity
I find that the simplest path is to describe whatever you're talking about in the simplest and most concrete terms possible while not letting the subject use their own jargon. "Astrologers say that people born in the sun sign Aries are impetuous and headstrong. This is in part because they associate Aries with the planet Mars. And the planet Mars's namesake is the deity Mars, a god of war...." It's halfway to being funny already just because we've restated the substance without recourse to the jargon of "planetary rulerships" and so forth. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 18:07, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
How About Loons?
There are certain terms that seem to cause more trouble than others. Cranks, quacks, and kooks come to mind. Why not loons instead? It works for the Encyclopedia of American Loons; they haven't had any legal trouble in their 5 or so years of existence and if you Googling you will see posts by said documented loons complaining about being featured there. I don't recommend getting rid of wingnut or moonbat either, since I've never heard anything actionable over those terms as well. Thoughts? --Castaigne (talk) 01:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- How is it any different from crank or kook? Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 01:29, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know that it is. I just haven't seen evidence of people getting as uptight about it. S'why I'm putting the thought out. --Castaigne (talk) 01:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- My thoughts: Instead of using "loon", "kook", "crank", etc., which are effectively snarl words, why not avoid any such potentially litigable words and just describe whatever the person's insanity is? (Preferably with snark.) Doing so does a much better job of documenting pseudoscience than saying that somebody is in one of a few "this guy is really stupid" boxes. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 01:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Probably because I don't regard those words as snarl words, as they are apt descriptors of people? I'm the wrong person to ask; I'm known for calling a raving nutter the same to their face. And frankly, I can't think of anything remotely snarky to put in regular sentences. As an example, "Gene Ray is a schizophrenic with a fixation on his own version of physics. The entirety of his Time Cube theory does not conform to any verifiable knowledge of the science of physics." I would...then follow that with a section on the history of Gene Ray, his notable appearances and debates, and then a brief section on what Time Cube is all about. And then...that's it. There's nothing more to be said. It's been put down plainly and stated factually and there's nothing left to add.
- I dunno. I don't have any other good suggestions to make. I already feel that my entries and edits are humorless as they are. (But then, I don't find humor in anything but morbid humor and schadenfreude.) --Castaigne (talk) 02:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- See, the thing is that humor and namecalling are both unnecessary. If an article has humor, good. If not, no harm. If an article has namecalling, bad. If not, no harm. I think calling somebody a crank (basically saying that their ideas are stupid and eccentric, without actually proving it) is unnecessary; just say that their ideas are stupid and eccentric. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 02:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Use cranks, quacks, loons and kooks as much as possible. Also work on your psychological projection article. 125.61.100.2 (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- I do believe I do prefer loon as an appellation for someone who's ideas are stupid and eccentric. --Castaigne (talk) 05:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- See, the thing is that humor and namecalling are both unnecessary. If an article has humor, good. If not, no harm. If an article has namecalling, bad. If not, no harm. I think calling somebody a crank (basically saying that their ideas are stupid and eccentric, without actually proving it) is unnecessary; just say that their ideas are stupid and eccentric. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 02:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- My thoughts: Instead of using "loon", "kook", "crank", etc., which are effectively snarl words, why not avoid any such potentially litigable words and just describe whatever the person's insanity is? (Preferably with snark.) Doing so does a much better job of documenting pseudoscience than saying that somebody is in one of a few "this guy is really stupid" boxes. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 01:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- The terms differ and emotional response might very - crank means easily angered, kook means crazy, loon means simpleton or foolish ideas. I would suggest focus on rational content and showing what's right and wrong as more important than tweaking how to shape the snark. — Unsigned, by: Markbassett / talk / contribs
- I don't know that it is. I just haven't seen evidence of people getting as uptight about it. S'why I'm putting the thought out. --Castaigne (talk) 01:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- They'll have had no trouble because they're tiny and unknown. Over the years, we've become increasingly popular and a go-to site on a lot of these people. We are a target and we weren't one before. We're playing in bigger leagues now. (As a board member I find this more than a little frightening ...) That said, it's quite fun to use them as a reference (as long as it isn't a circular reference, they cite RW a lot). - David Gerard (talk) 12:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but Loons is a site run by one person and, thus, can be more clearly seen as one person's opinion backed up by various facts. Is that a real difference or only a relevant after a person has been sued? MarmotHead (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Does anyone here have professional experience in the journalism industry? I just realized that the rest of "the big leagues" have to deal with this all the time. Ikanreed (talk) 19:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Question
When a decision is reached about shit happening and whatever, how does RW deal with it? Like, is there gonna be some big fucking editing campaign or some shit? Like, while most articles I've read and edited under different guises have been close to fucking stellar, there are still MASSIVE amounts of shitty shit, and removing it all would take a huge amount of co-ordinated effort. Considering how the entire community flips the fuck out about everything, is it really going to be possible to organise something like this, if doing so is a thing that you decide? Or, on the other side of the coin, will it be good for the community to be distracted by useful shit instead of whatever the fuck you cunts have been doing for the past couple of months? Just some shit to consider. Oxyisabitch (talk) 14:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
- It does fundamentally rest on people being not just willing, but interested in doing the work, yes - David Gerard (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Let's have a thought experiment. Imagine that in one year, RationalWiki has failed. Describe what kind of failure you find most likely - what happened, why it happened, and what you, individually and as the user community, did to result in such a failure and what you didn't do to prevent it.--AndYourFoesShallRejoice... (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Failed at what? writing about idiots? OK, suppose we stopped writing about idiots for some reason. I guess the most likely cause of that would be getting lost in our own little snarkiverse. I guess my role in that would be thinking all the articles I want to write have all been written, and restricting myself to commenting in the Saloon Bar whenever another old-timer turns up. SophieWilder
21:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- RationalWiki would have failed because it failed to produce popular articles, either by producing articles on unpopular topics, producing bad, not-linkworthy-on-other-sites articles, or by not producing articles. The community and I would presumeably either have been unaware of popular content, stupid, inactive, or trapped within the Talk-Page-iverse. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 21:35, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, I'll give this one a shot. I'll go for the creative route: let's say RationalWiki "fails" due to a perfect storm of an uptick of rampant trolling (GG, fundies, berts, whatever) leading to polarized perceptions and opinions of these people triggering some bad, high-profile RL-behaviour on behalf of sysops the envy of Dick Dorkins eventually bestowing infamy and the ensuing media drama. I wanna go off script a bit and talk about what I or even we didn't (or possibly wouldn't) do to save RW from irrelevance and/or oblivion, which is likely not engage enough with the community either within RW or on its Facebook page; I've been a fixture on the Internet in one form or another for a while now and I'm not very interested in engaging in lengthy, drawn out debates anymore - I've been through enough of them and I'm tired. I guess all I'm after at this point is a safe space where I don't have to contend with someone slack-jawed dickhead's unsubstantiated idiocy nor do I want to go down their harrowing descent of a rabbit hole only to hit a brick wall signifying this person's compartmentalized mental boundaries. Granted, I have and on occasion will go down that dark path, but it's limited and I just feel drained after trying to slog through the next troll's PRATT that I just dealt with, but AHA! I didn't address this point specifically therefore Gold standard or Atheism is Wrong or MONSATAN or whatever stupid crank idea is in vogue at the time. I have a family and career to worry about these days so I'm wont to wrack my mind and soul for this shit for extended periods of time; also, I suspect that there are many a user out here in RW that feels the same way. Thereafter, I will likely retreat back to my only other refuge for expression online amongst friends on various social media outlets or on more controlled forums, like Something Awful. Space Turbo (talk) 01:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- I do think that the site's list of official truths is a bit too long, especially on political and politicized subjects. I'm interested in more or less traditional scientific skepticism, and have an enduring literary interest in eccentric discourse, which is why I stick around. On the other hand, politically I suppose I'm a socially liberal paleoconservative with libertarian tendencies, though my libertarianism is more of the Playboy Philosophy type than the Randian or economanic varieties. (This doesn't fit well with actual politics as practiced, well, anywhere.) Our articles on political subjects are occasionally informative, but do little to convince anyone that a contrary position is false; nor can they, when what's at issue is clashing values rather than facts. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 04:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Dude, the thing with "scientific skepticism" is that you need not only apply it to the hard sciences. Applying it to things like the humanities and social sciences will steer you towards the conclusions found on this site's bias - much like it has done for me. Especially in regards to economics! Space Turbo (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- I do think that the site's list of official truths is a bit too long, especially on political and politicized subjects. I'm interested in more or less traditional scientific skepticism, and have an enduring literary interest in eccentric discourse, which is why I stick around. On the other hand, politically I suppose I'm a socially liberal paleoconservative with libertarian tendencies, though my libertarianism is more of the Playboy Philosophy type than the Randian or economanic varieties. (This doesn't fit well with actual politics as practiced, well, anywhere.) Our articles on political subjects are occasionally informative, but do little to convince anyone that a contrary position is false; nor can they, when what's at issue is clashing values rather than facts. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 04:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Most likely cause of failure: Hardware failure and apathy 208.29.163.248 (talk) 07:30, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Some kind of funding crisis, due to departure or apathy of previous substantial contributors & dwindling intake of new long-term editors. Perhaps the RMF will also disband or split from the site. Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 15:12, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- The thing about decreasing regular editor count is that I'm pretty sure that regular editors make up plurality of bandwidth usage. Now every wiki that does burn itself out follows a pattern of collective apathy until zero edits per day, then per week, then the owners don't care, but such a dwindling takes a long while from a 500 edit per day active rate. Ikanreed (talk) 16:40, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
It's succeeding because I finally found a forum where 99% of people don't believe in God.. YAYAY Pitzy 20:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC) — Unsigned, by: Pits Brazil / talk / contribs
- Simply and literally untrue. It doesn't speak well to your intentions to discuss anything here honestly. Ikanreed (talk) 20:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
CRAP sorry I don't review what I WRITE I meant to say I am happy becauseI can talk with NON-BELIEVERS I DEFINITELY BELIVE IN GOD but it didn't sound like that. I will rewrite it now :D Pitzy 20:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I have very little experience with Wiki site editing, or this site, so apologies if this post breaches site guidelines, etc.
Having used your site a few times in order to find descriptive explanations of various fallacies, I have only become increasingly frustrated by how it is worded, in every instance I have discovered, to specifically target certain groups.
When I look for a description of logic or reasoning, I am looking for something which is Not produced as if logic is a loaded gun designed to single out and shame particular groups.
In the main, arguments involving religious disputes tend to feature far more highly than is welcome in the example cases.
It makes it look as if reason was far from the intentions of the people producing the site and what was nearer to their intentions was using the site as a tool to intensify prejudice against religious groups.
In my opinion, we already have more than enough anti-religious rhetoric doing the rounds without adopting a policy which somewhat amounts to advocating anti-religion being taught, especially as if logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.
Why not begin to rewrite your pages to make the examples muti-purpose and draw attention to the fact that fallacies are fallacies irrespective of the core beliefs of the person presenting. Especially since, as it is, it becomes something which helps to perpetuate the myth that merely by being atheist you win a blanket insurance policy against stupidity.
In future abstracted examples, not loaded examples, would be most welcome.— Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
- Oh, no. We have a generally pro-atheism slant, but no illusions that there aren't plenty of problematic things prominent(and not so prominent) atheists say and believe. You won't be the first and you won't be the last to believe that we're a great wiki all except that, one, thing. The bias isn't going away, and none of us intend to contribute towards biases against religious people. We have articles about that sort of thing. We don't like religious beliefs, by and large(but we have a few active editor believers), but I think we try pretty hard to separate that from religious people. Ikanreed (talk) 17:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- In my opinion we're more about comedy than providing information. We mock anything that deserves mocking although we try to mock beliefs rather than people (exceptions being the more vocal cranks, if you say something loud enough you can't complain if others complain about it.) In short go to Wikipedia for facts and come here for a laugh.Samstr (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, a little, but it's also the case that we intend to be a legitimate source for deconstruction of bad ideas. Wikipedia exists to tell you about ideas and facts, their history and criticism. We exist to show you why some ideas just don't work. The tonal result is often one of mockery, because a lot of ideas are just that bad. Ikanreed (talk) 17:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, that may well describe your position but in my view certainly does nothing to excuse it. As if you would want to, of course. I might come back later to discuss the pros and cons of the RWiki position which, on the face of it, seems weak, falling a long way short of the ideal, and leaving too much to be desired. For the time being though, your reasons are sufficiently unconvincing, and your decision to stick with it sufficiently insistent, for me to simply elect to search elsewhere for generalised examples of the type I can actually use.
- Your zero edits and contributions will be missed. Have a nice trip. Ikanreed (talk) 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- The thing about religion is it is not rational, being based on articles of faith and subjective personal revelation. It's fine to believe, but it's not fine to proclaim it makes sense to. King Skeleton (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Well there's nothing like a spat of juvenile backbiting to reinforce my first impressions. Nor, for that matter, the idiotic misconception of the content of my complaint. So much for rationale.
- Feel free to go to the logic sections of TVTropes instead, then, which are routinely cleansed of actual examples, with the highlight being a page on burden of proof which is actually a defence of the fallacy in question. King Skeleton (talk) 03:13, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Do they also have a page on false-dilemma?— Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
- Telling you to sod off isn't a false dilemma unless you can simultaneously sod off and still be here, genius. King Skeleton (talk) 20:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Ah! Going straight for the jugular there I see. Giving voice to the general communal concenus of willingness to cause avoidable offense. To give you your due, strictly speaking, you have a good defence on one part: It wasn't strictly a false-dilemma, however, I was riding on the implicit Implication that my alternative to RationalWiki is TVTropes. However, before you weigh in with embittered sarcasm next time, you might want to clarify, for yourself, the difference between the concepts of false dilemma and mutual exclusivity. Had the alternatives you offered intended to limit to me the choice between just two false alternatives, which do not express well my range of other options, for example "It's either here or TVTropes", then the fallacy Is a false-dilemma. You appear to be confused with Mutual Exclusivity. Here there is perfectly adequate explanation of false-dilemma on RationalWiki:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
I didn't immediately find an description of Mutual Exclusivity on this website but there is a perfectly good description of why that is the example you give on Wikipedia. To save time, you need only to read the first sentence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_exclusive_events
I will resist the temptation to be drawn into a chimp fight on this occassion, but if you would rather than have a discussion just devolve into a chip-fight trade of "You're stoopid" insults then I should warn you that I am pretty good at being an asshole too.
194.75.238.182 (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC) ( Four tildes. Is this right? )
- List some examples of bias or go away. King Skeleton (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- @King Skelton: Here's that link on false dilemma again. Perhaps this time you should try to read it? It really is a perfectly adequate description for the purposes of this discussion: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
- List some examples of bias or go away. King Skeleton (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- @King Skelton: Here's that link on false dilemma again. Perhaps this time you should try to read it? It really is a perfectly adequate description for the purposes of this discussion: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
- So, you're not going to present any proof that your assertion is true, good-o. Look up the concept of the burden of proof. King Skeleton (talk) 02:20, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- @King Skelton: Here's that link on false dilemma again. Perhaps this time you should try to read it? It really is a perfectly adequate description for the purposes of this discussion: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
- List some examples of bias or go away. King Skeleton (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- @King Skelton: Here's that link on false dilemma again. Perhaps this time you should try to read it? It really is a perfectly adequate description for the purposes of this discussion: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Besides, from the text written by others it appears there are people enough already who know perfectly well what I mean, enough at least so as not to warrant having to simplify the description further so that you personally, @King Skelton, are able to understand what has been said. In any case, especially for you, here is yet another explanation, I do hope it is not just as wasted on you as the previous one:
My request is for the neutralisation of examples.
There, is this at last simple enough for you to understand? 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Which examples? What do you define as neutral? Why is "neutral" desirable, given that simply claiming the middle ground is better is an example of the appeal to moderation fallacy?...
- Incorrect. An appeal to moderation fallacy is the fallacy of declaring that when two people have opposing views the correct answer is the median. e.g: Alice thinks 2 + 2 = 3 and Robin says it's 7, therefore 2 + 2 = 5. This is Not what's being asked. I recommend a solition which need not reference Either Atheism Nor Christianity Nor in fact any nameable ideological outlook. However, it was said right at the beginning the administration on this site don't give a shit about that. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's the argument that in a debate with two extreme positions both extremes must be wrong and the answer must lie somewhere between them (A says 2+2=4, B says 2+2=6, therefore the correct solution is the compromise that 2+2=5), simply because it is between them. It doesn't necessarily require it to be the precise median, but that doesn't matter because "reference neither" is one of the median positions between "make fun of one" and "make fun of the other" anyway. King Skeleton (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
...Why should we care about being biased, when claiming bias means wrong is the classic balance fallacy...
- Incorrect. A balance fallacy is when both sides of a debate are assumed to have equal merit, irrespective of wether they acually do. e.g. Alice believes 2+2=4, Robin believes 2+2=Mozart's Hairpiece. Both Alice and Robin have an equal right to their beliefs therefore, as per their maths examin, either response is just as correct as the other. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- So that doesn't describe "you are biased, you must be fair to the other side regardless of its merits?" King Skeleton (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- You appear to be, as is common to the point of tedium, making the incorrect assumption ( and therefore false conclusion, so much for rationality eh? ) that I give a fuck about the atheist/theist debate except for when it encroaches. As I said below I am Brandishmantalianist which is, by definition, not interested in either position, so I am Not positioning myself in between the two teams on that matter any more than my recommendation is based on my interest in whether eggs should be broken from the pointed or the blunt end. If your site was made of an exhausting list of explanations for why anybody who believes eggs should be cracked from the sharp end are illogical based on exemplifying false defences of sharp-endianism, I'd still think it was shit. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Like I said, you bear the burden of proof here, and for someone who wants to change the examples you seem awfully evasive about telling us which ones you find problematic. It's not our duty to guess what your point is supposed to be. How about one instance of a problematic example? King Skeleton (talk) 07:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- As I have said, there are others who have experienced no difficulty at all working out the plentiful examples there are based on the decription given. I may come back and explain further, but don't bank on it. I may just get bored of the discussion and have your site banned instead. Not from the whole world of course, just from this installation. Still, why give a fuck what the Millenium Library thinks eh? 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- So no, you can't produce a single example. Fantastic, concession accepted. And nice appeal to force there, too. How will Rationalwiki survive the devastating assault of not being accessible in some library in Norwich? King Skeleton (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Normal for Norfolk. Alec Sanderson (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- So no, you can't produce a single example. Fantastic, concession accepted. And nice appeal to force there, too. How will Rationalwiki survive the devastating assault of not being accessible in some library in Norwich? King Skeleton (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Abstract examples are a terrible substitute when perfectly relevant real-word examples are available. Admittedly, abstract examples have their uses, like when trying to sell something (or to build populist support) without offending anyone's delicate sensibilities. But that's not what this site is about. --Inquisitor (talk) 04:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
They are? Do you have any useful examples for which a real-world example cannot be at least equalled with a more generalised abstraction with improved generality of purpose and at least parity of explanatory power? I'd like to see at least one.— Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
@Inquisitor: I'd like to submit the request a second time: Are you able to provide some at least one specific example for which there is no generalised abstraction with both improved generality of purpose and at least a parity of explanatory power? 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- He can't really do that unless you point to at least one example you think there is a problem with. King Skeleton (talk) 08:09, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- But I thought this was supposed to be DictionaryWiki. Fonzie (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- In my opinion, we already have more than enough anti-religious rhetoric doing the rounds without adopting a policy which somewhat amounts to advocating anti-religion being taught, especially as if logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.
- Your opinion? What makes you think that your opinion should carry any particular weight on this wiki?
- What makes you think I think you think my opinion should carry any particulare weight? If you believe other's opinion has no weight, then this is your problem, not mine. Meanwhile, the sentiment of apathy is very easily returned. It must be also one of the laziest routes to an arrogance unwarranted by ability. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- In my[hee] opinion there can be no such thing as too much anti-religious rhetoric.
- Touche. In my opinion there cannot be enough anti-Fonzie directed drive by shootings. We can go around this cycle of "One potato two potato" antipathy all day long. Do you see where it ends? 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- What's wrong with advocating the teaching of anti-religion?
- What's wrong with teaching anti-athiesm? What's wrong with teaching racism? Sexism? What's wrong with being anti-you? I would have thought that question can be answered in part without much assistance from me. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Religion is illogical therefore logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.
- This is an interesting declation. One for which you would need to provide a considerable about of evidence. It segues directly into the basic anti-theist pretence: Anything anti-religious automatically gets the anti-theist rubber stamp of appraoval, anything contary to it gets trashed. All you end up with an anti-theist mythology and series of unfounded statements and decarations about religion accepted Because they are anti-religious. It rapidly shifts into the same old prejuducial stereotyping found in racism and other basically prejuducial ideologies. For religion to be "Illogical", first you make a conjunction between an ideology and logic which suggests you don't know what logic is. Secondly you imply that something needs to be logic in order for it to be valid. Are fish logical? Is art logical? Are Lewis Carrol's nonesense rhymes invalid? Your own statement itself doesn't particularly qualify itself as logical or useful. Besides, for religion to be properly "illogical" the definition of religion itself would necessarily need to imply illogicity. And yet, you have no adequate defintion of "logic" which qualifies the classification as an accurate ideological validator. I would challenge you by saying you cannot provide a definition of "logic" which isn't better fulfilled by a different label. In fact, I dismiss the statement as just yet another term of abuse, carelessly tossed out and inadequately explored. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's you that is assuming that illogical must mean false. That's the fallacy fallacy. Religion isn't based on logic because it requires some element of faith to actually be a religion, and faith is "being sure of what we wish for and certain of that which we do not see," as the Bible puts it. Given Paul of Tarsus devotes entire books to arguing that one cannot and should not try to arrive at Christian faith via worldly reasoning, I think we can be pretty firm that Christianity claims no basis in logic. King Skeleton (talk) 07:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- If you don't like it, tough! Scream!! (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Once again: Likewise. We can all play the "I don't give a shit" game. Not exactly a criterion of personal excellence is it? In fact, I'd say it is to the contrary of any reasonable quality control. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd like to argue that religion isn't inherently illogical, on the basis that logic just processes the relationships of assumptions to conclusions. It doesn't actually disallow making flagrantly false or unreasonable assumptions. Ikanreed (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, this isn't far from the truth. Logic is OK for discourse analisys, and even then it is a specific breed of logic you use, but useless for a great many things. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Many versions of God seem to run into logical contradictions though if you consider all the ramifications of the "omni ..." characteristics.--Coffee (talk) 21:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, depending on ones defintion of what the terminology actually means, and what ome would expect from it in practice.
- I dunno: a priori versus a postiori and all that. I feel the moment you start bringing observation into it the problems mount like a interstate pileup when in snows in Atlanta. But to strictly suppose a universe where an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient entity exists isn't unreasonable. You can compose that logically. It just isn't the same as the world we live in. The problem of evil depends on there being evil. Ikanreed (talk) 22:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that rationalism generally holds that we must have some reason to believe in the truth of something before we actually do; every functional human being in the world follows this rule in practice, because otherwise you would be standing rooted to the spot to not set off the invisible motion-sensitive mines you can't prove aren't all around you, while awaiting the certain-to-come assault of the invisible octopus-wasps from planet Zob which will eat you any minute now. So to start with you require some element of special pleading to explain why none of the other things that might exist are worthy of acknowledgement.
- The statement usually applied there is "when you explain why you don't believe in any other god, I'll explain why I don't believe in yours." King Skeleton (talk) 07:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- In my opinion, we already have more than enough anti-religious rhetoric doing the rounds without adopting a policy which somewhat amounts to advocating anti-religion being taught, especially as if logic is, in its essence, specifically an anti-religious body of thought.
The difficulty with religion and logic isn’t about whether or not religion starts with assumptions (axioms) and logically develops conclusions, but whether or not the set of religious assumptions is consistent in the logical sense, i.e., doesn’t result in internal contradictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistency). This can be determined in the negative (that is, not consistent) easily (think of the 0=1 argument game) but can be impossible to prove in the positive (that is, consistent). The vast majority of religious thought involves assumptions (axioms) that on simple logical reflection lead to contradictions (think distant starlight and YEC). This is a fundamental problem and is why many arguments sound anti-religious, but are in fact pointing out the contradictions. — Unsigned, by: JoeEric / talk / contribs
- All religions are based on some guy just saying something and convincing other people that it is true. I see no reason to give it any greater weight than anyone else's opinion until it is backed up with demonstrable facts.
ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science.
14:09, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly as the statement above. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- All religions are based on some guy just saying something and convincing other people that it is true. I see no reason to give it any greater weight than anyone else's opinion until it is backed up with demonstrable facts.
- This thread:
- OP: "RationalWiki hurt my feelings therefore they are biased!"
- Wrong.
- RW: "Okay, how are we biased?"
- OP: "Why you gotta be so mean to religion I just wanna be-LIEVE!"]
- Bullshit. I have not said anything of the kind. You really need to hold up a mirror up to your own falsity.
- RW: "Good for you - we're still going to critically evaluate the subject and mock its logical failures."
- OP: "Why you gotta be so mean and immature?! I thought this was RationalWiki!
- OP: "RationalWiki hurt my feelings therefore they are biased!"
- Did I miss anything? Space Turbo (talk) 17:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, you're missing out on the fact that when somebody points out you are nothing better than a cunt with pretentions, and they are right, then there is no falsehood in the argument at all. What you do about it is then your problem. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Were you summarizing this discussion in particular or literally every discussion an indignant new user brings to this site? "Why are you mocking libertarianism, it's a political belief!" or today "Why are you mocking anti-GMO nuttery, it's just nature!" Ikanreed (talk) 19:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Interesting. As appears to be the general ethos of the site thus far, clearly the majority view here is it's far better to try to make offensive remarks than just about anything else the site might stand for.
That isn't what's interesting though. Speaking as somebody who has used the internet and it's various chat rooms, forums and Usenet groups since www.symbolics.com was the best site on the web I have noticed the gradual erosion of the principle of connecting intelligent institutions as market forces push costs down and ease of use up it has become the very best ongoing example of the "chimps with typewriters" principle.
This means it serves many subsidiary purposes, including one as a worldwide crèche for anybody with antisocial personality disorder and a welfare cheque to while away their days trying to upset and offend.
You're certainly not the worst offenders the web has to offer, you will be totally apathetic to hear, but it does lead to the "Given a sufficient number of typewriters, a sufficient number of primates will eventually produce Rational Wiki".
Right, so with an apology to those above who wrote serious responses, that just leaves me to sit back and wait for another bout of waiting for you to throw your own faecal matter at the enclosure windows again then? How intelligent!
Oh, and if you're planning to try to sharpen your tongue again, try harder. The offence oriented among you are less effective at causing upset than those magnetic insects gift shops sell in a little perspex case. So, come on now, put the full weight of that considerable Rational Wiki intellect into really trying to hurt my feelings... Go on..
. I'll be checking back and you had better be really offensive or I will be very, very dissappointed.
Oh, sorry, I almost forgot the four tildes 2.96.101.230 (talk) 20:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- oh, if you could only hear yourself. Deary, deary me. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 20:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- "You're all biased against religious folks! Also I'm going to stereotype a bunch of (let's be honest, we actually do have a class problem here) mostly middle class atheists as welfare cheats, because I've only got so many things in this here bag of rightwing canned stereotypes." Ikanreed (talk) 20:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- "I have noticed the gradual erosion of the principle of connecting intelligent institutions as market forces push costs down and ease of use up it has become the very best ongoing example of the "chimps with typewriters" principle."
- "This means it serves many subsidiary purposes, including one as a worldwide crèche for anybody with antisocial personality disorder and a welfare cheque to while away their days trying to upset and offend."
- What?
- You haven't contributed to this discussion whatsoever...
- Excuse me for interrupting your flow, but exactly who has? I'd like to see you pointing out something you consider to be a "contribution"?
- ...aside from complaining in incomprehensible, pretentious language, poop references, and comparisons to brainless primates. I don't think anyone is going to respond to you seriously, even after they decipher your peculiar style of writing. RationalWiki makes fun of basically anything, but it especially mocks fundamentalism, which a part is stating that religious events actually did happen. Also, a lot of times, religion is linked with superstition and pseudoscience, which are subjects RationalWiki aims to cover. "Religious bashing", which is the subject of this topic apparently, is then going to be here. LEFTYGREENMARIO 21:07, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, besides that one thing mentioned above, I actually accept your statement as one of the few reasonable ones written thus far. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, that's Doxy's best? Sad. Quick. But sad, and boring. I am not offended at all. Ok, off you go... Doxy was first... Surely at least one of you can come up with better than that? 2.96.101.230 (talk) 20:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
At what point was the "I shall go elsewhere" threat carried out?
If you're going to quit a community, do it. Ikanreed (talk) 20:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- He can't. His air of disdainful superiority requires an audience - even one as contemptuous as us. He needs someone to feel superior to and, for the moment, we're serving that role. Without Sir Toby Belch Malvolio is nothing. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I suspect that he may be waiting for his nanny to pick his toys up and put them back in his pram. Waaaahhhhh! ProblemChimp (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Damn near sounds like a borderline personality disorder at this point. Space Turbo (talk) 07:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Awwww, he really did leave :( Space Turbo (talk) 22:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have carried it out consistently both before and after writing my the comment from which you remove this statement. You may be able to read but your comprehension is poor. Of course, an alternative explanation is that your comprehension is good, but you don't care nearly as must about comprehension as you do about casting aspertion. The basic tool in any typical anti-anything/anyone discourse. Just slag it off, feel superior and leave it to fend for itself. We already know for a fact All Non-blue eyed American atheists are child molesters. See, easy isn't it? Decide against something and you can then just make up any old crap about it you like. Also you can make up any old crap about yourself in relation to it. Personally I'm a Brandishmantalianist which means, by defintion, I am superior in every way; more intelligent, more ethical and better looking than both atheists and theists. Bet you can't overturn it too. So do I win the just-making-shit-up about people competion? It turns out I do! Explained by the fact I am awarding or withdrawing credentials exactly as I see fit as well! So easy isn't it? Clearly anybody delcaring themselves to be either atheist or Christian, oir deemed so in my opinion, should be wiped out for their tacit inferiority of thought and action and also for the benefit of the greatest possible good; i.e. myself. Convert or die. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Boring troll, by the way. "How dare you have bias against me, by the way people different than me should be wiped out." Imma just keep oppressing you, if that's okay. Ikanreed (talk) 19:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- The American absence of a sense of irony strikes! How sweet! Yes, I absolutely agree. The quote you are responding to is a pseud. Your response confirms it's reliability too in fact, since your exact same quotation, with just a small movement of the unquote: "How dare you have bias against me, by the way people different than me should be wiped out. Imma just keep oppressing you, if that's okay", pretty much sums up the general ethos of Rational Wiki, and generally of the "New atheism". Precisely the indended outcome of my own comment. It is so pleasant to have you absolutely confirm the precision of what I have written. Thank you Ikan! 194.75.238.182 (talk) 19:36, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't mind that you're trolling. Really, I don't. But could you please be less boring about it? Ikanreed (talk) 19:42, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't get why someone better than everyone at everything doesn't just go start their own website/wiki to display it to the world. You could make your own pulpit to scream at the world from without people saying anything you consider counterproductive. There is no one standing in your way. Go. Do it. Stop wasting your time typing here when you could be working on your masterpiece. EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's likely that the first software I wrote was published some years before a number of you were even twinkle in your daddy's eye. Thanks for the advice though. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hell, it's even legal to fork rationalwiki, and change what you want under CC-A-SA, as long as you keep the edit records. You could write a bot to scrape the wikitext in an hour or two. Ikanreed (talk) 20:12, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't get why someone better than everyone at everything doesn't just go start their own website/wiki to display it to the world. You could make your own pulpit to scream at the world from without people saying anything you consider counterproductive. There is no one standing in your way. Go. Do it. Stop wasting your time typing here when you could be working on your masterpiece. EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 20:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- But none of that provides the same masturbatory self-congratulation as stoking one's own ego and persecution complex quite like proclaiming how much better you are than a given group while paradoxically claiming that said group is holding you down (despite any evidence to support it and with much evidence to the contrary as always)! Space Turbo (talk) 00:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- "claiming that said group is holding you down"
- I am not.
- I don't mind that you're trolling. Really, I don't. But could you please be less boring about it? Ikanreed (talk) 19:42, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- The American absence of a sense of irony strikes! How sweet! Yes, I absolutely agree. The quote you are responding to is a pseud. Your response confirms it's reliability too in fact, since your exact same quotation, with just a small movement of the unquote: "How dare you have bias against me, by the way people different than me should be wiped out. Imma just keep oppressing you, if that's okay", pretty much sums up the general ethos of Rational Wiki, and generally of the "New atheism". Precisely the indended outcome of my own comment. It is so pleasant to have you absolutely confirm the precision of what I have written. Thank you Ikan! 194.75.238.182 (talk) 19:36, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Boring troll, by the way. "How dare you have bias against me, by the way people different than me should be wiped out." Imma just keep oppressing you, if that's okay. Ikanreed (talk) 19:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have carried it out consistently both before and after writing my the comment from which you remove this statement. You may be able to read but your comprehension is poor. Of course, an alternative explanation is that your comprehension is good, but you don't care nearly as must about comprehension as you do about casting aspertion. The basic tool in any typical anti-anything/anyone discourse. Just slag it off, feel superior and leave it to fend for itself. We already know for a fact All Non-blue eyed American atheists are child molesters. See, easy isn't it? Decide against something and you can then just make up any old crap about it you like. Also you can make up any old crap about yourself in relation to it. Personally I'm a Brandishmantalianist which means, by defintion, I am superior in every way; more intelligent, more ethical and better looking than both atheists and theists. Bet you can't overturn it too. So do I win the just-making-shit-up about people competion? It turns out I do! Explained by the fact I am awarding or withdrawing credentials exactly as I see fit as well! So easy isn't it? Clearly anybody delcaring themselves to be either atheist or Christian, oir deemed so in my opinion, should be wiped out for their tacit inferiority of thought and action and also for the benefit of the greatest possible good; i.e. myself. Convert or die. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Meanwhile, it would be nice if you'd also answer the call to being forward evidence for your claims. We already have at least one countable offence of a claimn which is quite patently false, and little else besides the usual troll-like value judgements. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Whatever happened to constructive dialogue?
Guys, listen to yourselves. This doesn't look anything like constructive dialogue, and nobody on this page is making themselves look big or clever. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 00:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hooray for the first intelligent comment not to be written by me. It may have become a productive dialogue but all the Evidence points to a group that don't want to be bothered with anything too constructive. You're the product of a system that allows absolutely anybody to publish absolutely anything they want to, thanks to absolutely no quality control whatsoever. Productive? No chance of that around here. Why don't you all go back to doing what you're good at and go bitch about Christianity? For all the negligible productive worth it has. 194.75.238.182 (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Holy shit, you're serious? All they've done here is go "it's unfair to the religious to deconstruct our arguments" with just a dash of "kill everyone who disagrees with me". Now, skeleton king shouldn't have banned them(seriously dude cool it with the talkspace bans), but there's not a lot you can do with someone who just goes "everything is terrible, and let me not explain in any meaningful way." Good faith debate requires a serious message to consider. Ikanreed (talk) 14:46, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- B0N's comments look like good faith to me & I don't see where you're pulling some of these assumptions about his/her beliefs & motivations from. As I see it, he/she has come here with some kind of understandable misconceptions about the scope of our articles (which could have been best addressed by referring to the info at RationalWiki, RationalWiki:Newcomers and What is a RationalWiki article? etc.) plus some criticisms about the site's/editors' POV, which - whether you or I agree with them or not - are a legitimate & valid perspective. Rather than dealing with it like adults, I see users piling in with all kinds of snide & smug comments, attacks, hostility, strawmanning, accusations of trolling & arbitrary pop-psych diagnoses. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:20, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Oh my gosh..... this reads like a break in the clouds. Thank you @Weaseloid! — Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
- ^ yeah this page is a bit depressing to read. Nullahnung (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that the "debates" with LogicMaster777 have exhausted most people's reserves of politeness on RW.--TiaC (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I just see a guy who's saying there's a problem and then making a huge show of refusing to explain what he thinks it is. King Skeleton (talk) 07:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that the "debates" with LogicMaster777 have exhausted most people's reserves of politeness on RW.--TiaC (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah but it was a troll though. Fonzie (talk) 21:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- How so? Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's the part where he comes in and says that this site is "cheapened by its bias," but then fails to account for what that bias actually is whinging about RW's critical examination of religion. And then there's the part where he goes full Sperglord and insists he's being persecuted...
- ...because we called him out for failing to demonstrate his claims meaningfully while hiding behind pompous walls of text while offering thinly-veiled threats. If the guy's serious, he's an idiot and if he isn't, it's the worst goddamn troll I've seen in a while. Either way, this sort of shit-posting deserves nothing more than derision! Space Turbo (talk) 23:43, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Incorrect. You lot keep fantasisting that I feel like the commments I am referring are directed towards me or I'm somehow an offended Christian Fundamentalist. Usually I don't reveal under such misconceptions, that I am NOT religious, just to see the anti-religous bitch fight flow to the surface, but I'll spare you: I don't beleive in God either, that does not mean I have to either like or agree with that you are doing. I think it's fair to detect that you are persecuting Somebody by your self-confessed mockery, hence my reason for the original post: I cannot present the material here equally to people who either may or may not from a faith, within subjects which need not invoke the otherwise irrelvant debate on religion, without invoking the otherwise irrelevant debate on religion and making people I am Not interested in personally targetting feel like I am personally targetting them and seperating out an equally able group from the rest of the class. But, whatever you feel you are persecuting, I am certainly not it. I have seen trolls for years, so believe me when I tell you that somebody calling me an asshole for disagreeing with them is not a problem for me, especially since it makes Them look palpably stupid, not me. Meanwhile, you will have a hell of a job persecuting me from where you are... good luck trying if that's your intention! — Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
- I really can't make out what comment you're referring to as a claim of being persecuted, but either way I don't see how that, or anything else you've just cited, would count as trolling. In fact, looking through our characteristics of trolls checklist, I see your comments on this page falling much more heavily within this pattern than BoN's. Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 01:09, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, @Weaseloid, I would not want the trolls to turn on you or accuse you of palling up with me in any way, but, thanks again! — Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
- Weaseloid is being reasonable, that's all. It's true that there are some unnecessarily aggressive comments. I've been a aggressive too, although I feel like I need to criticize the language used here. It may or may not have been the intent of the writer, though, to sound pretentious. The I.P. didn't really make a lot of aggressive comments nevertheless, but I can kind of understand that some people just lost patience arguing. LEFTYGREENMARIO 00:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, @Weaseloid, I would not want the trolls to turn on you or accuse you of palling up with me in any way, but, thanks again! — Unsigned, by: 194.75.238.182 / talk / contribs
- How so? Wëäŝëïöïď
- B0N's comments look like good faith to me & I don't see where you're pulling some of these assumptions about his/her beliefs & motivations from. As I see it, he/she has come here with some kind of understandable misconceptions about the scope of our articles (which could have been best addressed by referring to the info at RationalWiki, RationalWiki:Newcomers and What is a RationalWiki article? etc.) plus some criticisms about the site's/editors' POV, which - whether you or I agree with them or not - are a legitimate & valid perspective. Rather than dealing with it like adults, I see users piling in with all kinds of snide & smug comments, attacks, hostility, strawmanning, accusations of trolling & arbitrary pop-psych diagnoses. Wéáśéĺóíď
- Holy shit, you're serious? All they've done here is go "it's unfair to the religious to deconstruct our arguments" with just a dash of "kill everyone who disagrees with me". Now, skeleton king shouldn't have banned them(seriously dude cool it with the talkspace bans), but there's not a lot you can do with someone who just goes "everything is terrible, and let me not explain in any meaningful way." Good faith debate requires a serious message to consider. Ikanreed (talk) 14:46, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
If our editor can be accused of anything it's that his objections amount to a tone argument. In order to be taken seriously he really needs to present a number of specific cases rather than a general statement. --Weirdstuff (talk) 09:18, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is that the best you've got? I don't care, I'm leaving. And another thing, son, I'm an old programmer so don't talk to me about wikis. --A troll
- Fonzie (talk) 22:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see the tone argument. The editor hasn't made attacks or anything, just questioned the bias of this wiki. Even though the criticism is a bit vague, I don't see personal attacks similar to the examples being made in the tone argument article. LEFTYGREENMARIO 00:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's exactly a tone argument. The example conversation at the start of the tone article argument is pretty bad but if you read the article I suggest that you will agree.
- A tone argument is all about complaining about the style of a presentation without meaningfully addressing the content.--Weirdstuff (talk) 09:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Just an Anecdote
What "bias" I've experienced on this site is just taking sides... which is fine. in that sense everyone is biased. I've never seen any info withheld from this site.
I did get put in the vandal bin solely for posting "tedious crackpot spam" when there was no reason to do so (the person who did it didn't want to deal with my claims), but he was called out on it, and I was taken out. Ever since then, I had no problem.--ReptoidKiller (talk) 16:12, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Jesus Fuck You Goony Bastards
The guy is obviously a troll - stop trying to lend him any legitimacy as this thread has demonstrated repeatedly that he isn't actually concerned about any perceived "bias" but whether or not he can waste our collective time, effort and sanity for the lulz. FWIW, he should've been banned a while ago and I'm done giving him a platform. Space Turbo (talk) 06:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- What has he/she said or done that's in any way bannable? Do you actually know what our blocking policy is? Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- To be honest while I wouldn't consider it bannable, this person is certainly no wounded innocent: their debate technique is best summarised by the term "violent." Every single post is some form of attack: this person is older, more experienced, wiser, more capable, and more right than us, so clearly we must comply. His response to demands of evidence? Try to get me to retract the demand through peer pressure. I'm fairly sure despite his assertions to the contrary this is because he's a creationist and knows providing examples would show that in a heartbeat.
- I've seen plenty of people like this modding over the years; they find something they know won't get changed, object to it in the vaguest terms possible, and then spend the rest of their time grandstanding about how they don't have to explain themselves further.
- Does he have to actually pat you on the head and say "good dog" before you realise how much he's talking down to you, Weaseloid? Those responses he made to you were essentially "look, see, this is a good person, why can't you all be like them?" King Skeleton (talk) 08:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's obviously not a case for ban. Making vague tone complaints about the site and then not following up with examples is not an offence.
- If you think he's a troll then ignore him. If you think you can get some sense out of him then ask him to start getting specific. The worst thing is to get with the insults and the blocks.--Weirdstuff (talk) 10:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Time for a summary/lessons learned/post mortem section?
Okay, I realise that I'm late to the party and I'll frankly admit to being too lazy to read every single paragraph of this rambling thread. Nevertheless, I doubt I'm the only one, so I'll just add up my impressions and we can take it from there:
I) Has the original poster, the library IP (LIP), actually provided any useful and concrete examples of how RW is being "cheapened considerably by its bias"? LIP's initial post (and several of the replies to) reads to me like a cross between a concern troll and the balance fallacy with a dash of tone argument added for good measure. A quick breeze through the thread didn't seem to yield any empirical data to support what essentially appears to be an argument by assertion.
II) Has LIP provided any useful criticism in lieu of concrete examples? Here I mean useful responses to some of the more eloquent replies (i.e. more than telling LIP to basically push off - however appropriate such a suggestion might be)? So far, it seems that LIP has only tried to quibble about whether (s)he was guilty of employing various fallacies, rather than substantive responses to the objections to LIP's initial claim.
III) If LIP hasn't provided anything worthwhile through I) or II), have anyone else taken up the slack and raised some salient points somewhat analogous to the sentiment originally expressed by LIP, e.g. by finding the examples that LIP apparently didn't or by providing the kind of useful responses that LIP seems to have failed to produce? As far as I can see that doesn't really seem to be the case either.
IV) If LIP has contributed neither through I) or II) and no one else has presented anything along "LIP'ish" as per III) is there any reason to continue this thread? One reason, while not directly pertinent to LIP's posts in an of themselves, would be the meta-issue of how to respond to (any) criticism - but that is a question that is at best tangential to LIP's OP.
If IV) is the only type of subject of merit found in this thread, I guess we can safely and easily wound it up - but if I'm wrong (likely due to laziness), then please enlighten me. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Your assessment looks good to me. However I am not aware that there is any provision for "winding threads up" nor do I feel there should be. If people believe the poster is any species of troll then they should not interact with him. If people want to continue the exchange they are welcome to.--Weirdstuff (talk) 13:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the OP's original concern can be summed up as "Is this RationalWiki or is this AntiReligious(AndThereforeAssumedToBeRational)Wiki?" Admittedly, his point of contention isn't the lack of religiousness, but the lack of neutrality. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 13:26, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I was not trying to stop the debate, merely to "wind it up" in the sense that it really didn't seem to be going anywhere (in terms of providing new and interesting topics and discussions). Therefore, adding a section trying to sum up what this thread has taught us (if anything) seemed a good idea to me. Anyone who wish to should of course feel free to bang on to their hearts' content.
- And yes, it does seem that LIP is searching for a sort of Wikipedia'esque NPOV, but the problem is that (s)he is not willing to actually provide some good POV examples from RW, not to mention that when pressed, LIP seems to have been solely interested in fisking and quibbling over the wording of the responses, not actually defining or discussing a better version or ratio of POV/NPOV. This makes what initially appeared like LIP could be raising an interesting inquiry about bias and its role on RW (e.g. what are taboos, sections being biased to the point of strawmanning etc.) into something that resembles nothing more than mere concern trolling and tone arguments. ScepticWombat (talk) 14:17, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- As I read it one of LIPs objections was using religious examples for examples of fallacies - as if we were trying to make the likes of Ken Ham look bad. LIP feels that this is bias. I feel that it's part of our debunking role. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 14:26, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
B0N was interested in our articles summarising logical fallacies & disliked that so many of them use anti-religious examples, preferring abstract examples instead. In fact, the primary reason for these articles on logical fallacies is because they crop up so often in pseudoscience, religious apologetics, etc, as per our RW:MISSIONs, so such examples are appropriate for us. But I can see how somebody entering the site via these article might not be aware of this & might find these kinds of anti-religious examples a distraction. If this was a wiki about formal logic rather than about pseudoscience, authoritarian & fundamentalism etc, then B0N would be right & we should adopt more neutral examples, but that isn't the case.
What disturbs me is the willingness of users throughout this page to assume bad faith for no clear reason & make all kinds of other unfounded assumptions about B0N's beliefs & motivations, plus the pack mentality of users like SpaceTurbo jumping into the thread just to hurl insults at the unwelcome interloper, with nothing constructive to add & a poor understanding of what had actually been said. "Giving voice to the general communal consensus of willingness to cause avoidable offence", as B0N said.
This is far from a lone incident. We have a mission statement that says we welcome constructive dialogue, yet people who come here with criticisms of the articles, site or PoV are regularly branded as trolls & told to fuck off. It's contributing to the site's reputation as an narrow-minded echo chamber & likely to discourage serious contributors. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd like to think I engaged them pretty fairly at the beginning and got exactly zero meaningful response from it. And I lost faith in any meaningful discussion at the "everyone different than me should be expunged" sentiment. I get why you're arguing for more tolerance and due self reflection. Those are admirable qualities, but sometimes a troll is a troll. Ikanreed (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Reductio ad absurdum isn't automatically trolling. Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Reductio ad absurdum isn't automatically trolling. Wēāŝēīōīď
When is bias a problem for rationalwiki
With the nice closure above, let's move this into a more useful frame of discussion for our own learning: what kinds of bias in edits can seriously hurt rationalwiki's quality at being what it actually is.
- It's hard to ignore all the cases that get reverted instantly: people financially close to particular brand names of woo editing articles to make them more respectable. Obviously, almost everyone here is already on board with opposing this sort of bias, and it doesn't need a lot of extra attention.
- Pet theory bias: where an editor has an idea they personally are quite enamored with that relates to an article. Wikipedia has this problem and suppresses it with a no original research policy. Here, I've only seen one major instance of it at alternative cosmology. I might have this problem and not be aware of it. Please feel free to let me know, if you see that.
- Status quo bias: this is a problem every wiki with an established article and user base faces. Articles, as they mature, tend to get viewed as the best they could be, when huge deficits exist, and editors, naturally pattern matching with vandals and trolls, start to view every change to such articles with a great deal of suspicion. I suffer from this bias, but I have no idea how to counter it in myself reasonably.
There are probably a lot more than these. What kinds of biases do you think are problematic here? Ikanreed (talk) 14:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- It seems to me, but that may just be, if not my pet theory then my pet aversion, that criticism of what I personally consider overly PC and superficial "culture feminism" (e.g. criticism of Anita Sarkeesian) on RW is likely to get one put in the MRA category or (too easily) slapped with the misogynist label. Not that some (well, probably a lot) of those lashing out at Sarkeesian aren't clearly in the MRA/misogynist camp. But while some of the criticism of Sarkeesian is just trollish, dickish or ignorant, this doesn't automatically make it MRA'ish or misogynist. Not to mention that considering Sarkeesian's analyses to be superficial and her criteria silly doesn't make anyone either a misogynist or an MRA. This is one instance where I think the mobocracy of RW tends to be less than ideal. Another example is the patriachy article which quite tellingly lumps in criticism with denial and ties both to MRA/misogynism. Even though specific cases of male disadvantage is acknowledged and it's rightly pointed out that this is not an indication of "the evils of feminism", there's a glaring absence of the reverse corollary: "Oh, we're sorry, where's the first female POTUS?" is no more of an argument in favour of the "patriarchy" than legally mandated male child support is indicative of a "feminazi conspiracy" (or are we seriously arguing that it was the "patriarchy" which prevented Hillary from becoming POTUS in 2008?). Likewise, the wage gap is solid evidence of female disadvantages, but not automatically of a patriarchy, any more than systemic disadvantages of poor children are an automatic indication of a plutocracy. The gender wage gap is a necessary, but not sufficient indication of a patriarchy, unless patriarchy is defined so broadly as to mean "any advantage enjoyed by men and not by women/disadvantage suffered by women and not by men". Such an automatic equation of any type of female disadvantage/male privilege with "patriarchy" seems to me a rather simplistic analysis and one which I doubt would be made in most other areas, the "race" issue being an obvious exception. Again, this is not to say that such feminist criticism is completely off the mark, or even advocating that patriarchy doesn't exists, but automatically tying any type of disadvantage to patriarchy (or racism) is sloppy reasoning, not to mention that it risks ignoring other relevant socio-economic aspects. The problem is, of course, that MRA/misogynists/racists do raise similar points, but I think the goal ought to be pointing out where they're mistaken, not simply falling back on a kind of argument which seems to me to be close if not downright into correlation does not imply causation-territory.
- However, compared to the truly frustrating NPOV/OR on Wikipedia, I think that I actually find this kind of RW bias less problematic, especially from a systemic viewpoint. After all, such a thing as liking or disliking Sarkeesian, her methods or her critics is at least an honest row we can have in the open (or not engage in if it comes to that). On Wikipedia you just get those endless "This violates WP:OR/NPOV" replies which are the equivalent of the U.S. government responding to complaints about cannabis legislation by focusing on whether the plaintiffs can be disregarded for not having (proper) plaintiff status and repeating that cannabis is a schedule I drug (avoiding the actual discussion of whether this status quo is reasonable and/or why it should/shouldn't be changed).
- Likewise, I like that it's OK here on RW to spell out that a view that the moon is made of raccoon liver makes you a crank, without having to find "reliable sources" which have specifically pointed this out (a huge hole in WP is that "views too stupid to be taken seriously" or simply "too obscure to have been noticed" are thus unlikely to be easily countered, unless you can make a case for them being a fringe view, undue weight and all that jazz). The downside being that we have a lot of articles without any citations or refs at all (practically an invitation to the "nyahnyahnyah that's just your opinion"-crowd).
- I also find the WP NPOV to be galling because it effectively shields such dishonest shitebags as William Lane Craig, who has been abusing academic courtesy for decades (and of course his fanboys will kick up a furore if any negative stuff should find its way onto his WP page). Where to draw the limits of goat/snark/bias is of course both a matter of debate and taste, but I think that the problem with this side of RW is that it's unfortunately (too) easy to dismiss articles with tone arguments, which means that RW risks simply preaching to the choir. There's not necessarily anything wrong with this, but it does risk creating a slightly "cultish" community, especially in conjunction with mobocracy. Still, as I said, I definitely prefer it to the (pretend) NPOV of WP.
- I hadn't thought of the "Status quo bias", so thanks for highlighting it (I'll try to keep it in mind - particularly with regards to the WLC page here on RW). ScepticWombat (talk) 16:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Shit, this came of as more of a rant than a reply - sorry. Short version:
- Treatment of feminism is a potential problem for RW.
- Sourcing often weak on RW.
- Snark risks compromising communication of content and promote insularity on RW. ScepticWombat (talk) 16:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ECx2)'m ok with all sorts of bias as long as the reasoning behind it is explained explicitly in a form that is understandable and not condescending to someone who is new to the topic. Do the explanatory leg work and I'll tolerate even egregious name-calling. Bias towards people who are already familiar with the topic at hand is something I see as a problem because I feel it is of much less value than educating and introducing those who are new. Nullahnung (talk) 16:53, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- "You sound very clueless about feminism (you called her a culture feminist without even googling it to see if that was actually a thing? wow such nuance, such discourse), since you keep talking about how 'this evidence doesn't mean it's automatically a patriarchy' as if dithering semantics has any relevance in whether something is a result of the structural "female disadvantage/male privilege"...WHICH PEOPLE HAVE LABELED 'PATRIARCHY' WOW WHAT A USEFUL CONCEPT THAT ONLY PEDANTS TAKE LITERALLY.
"...no more of an argument in favour of the "patriarchy" than legally mandated male child support is indicative of a "feminazi conspiracy" (or are we seriously arguing that it was the "patriarchy" which prevented Hillary from becoming POTUS in 2008?)" Are we really, taking these ludicrous feminist ideas seriously? I see no argument proving I should believe in it! DERP
"solid evidence of female disadvantages, but not automatically of a patriarchy" What the hell kind of straw man are you even arguing against? this is such a pointless rant, it doesn't really matter how you define sexism.
"Such an automatic equation of any type of female disadvantage/male privilege with "patriarchy" seems to me a rather simplistic analysis and one which I doubt would be made in most other areas, the "race" issue being an obvious exception." Why does it seem simplistic? Why is race an "obvious exception"? Because you don't know what you're talking about, and require special evidence to prove "patriarchy" to be a useful concept?
"automatically tying any type of disadvantage to patriarchy" fucking obviously ugh what a waste of time! Calamondin (talk) 18:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- "You sound very clueless about feminism (you called her a culture feminist without even googling it to see if that was actually a thing? wow such nuance, such discourse), since you keep talking about how 'this evidence doesn't mean it's automatically a patriarchy' as if dithering semantics has any relevance in whether something is a result of the structural "female disadvantage/male privilege"...WHICH PEOPLE HAVE LABELED 'PATRIARCHY' WOW WHAT A USEFUL CONCEPT THAT ONLY PEDANTS TAKE LITERALLY.
Feminism, then
So, we're problematic about feminism. The thing about it is, "modern" anti-feminism is a powerful crank magnet. Biotruths and pick up artistry and denial of sociological studies on rape and the natural authoritarianism of traditional gender roles. When we choose not to focus overmuch on how Sarkeesian's videos, e.g. have legitimate problems, it's because those problems aren't on mission in the same way as the hate fueled irrational response that she garners is. The bias is a mission oriented one, and thus impossible to divert from. Ikanreed (talk) 17:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough, and I heartily agree that ""modern" anti-feminism is a powerful crank magnet" and that PUAs, MRAs and the biotruth camp are loathsome troglodytes who should shuffle back into their lairs where they can regale each other with their vile crankery. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I didn't mean that to be an end-all be all summary of the discussion. I spun it off as a topic because there's probably some room to try to work within that framework to eliminate the problems we do get. I just meant that we can't have a summary decision on removing feminist bias on the wiki, due to on-missionness of some of it. There may still be a more nuanced approach here. Ikanreed (talk) 15:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- A more nuanced approach would be to stop acting like this is all basic stuff that does not need citing or explaining and anyone who asks for such is automatically an MRA. It is not in fact stuff that only idiots wouldn't grasp, it takes a while to grasp if you happen to have to build your own opinion based on the rag tag plethora of differently biased info that is out there and your education has not included much relating to sociology. Nullahnung (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. Personally, I take the need for factual and academic citations of categorical assertions as quite important. That's my favorite kind of contribution to make. But... let's be honest here, feminism articles aren't really any worse for that than most others. Ikanreed (talk) 23:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, we had a good thing going at http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Project_Social_Justice some months ago, but all those who participated seem to have since disappeared. :( Nullahnung (talk) 00:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. Personally, I take the need for factual and academic citations of categorical assertions as quite important. That's my favorite kind of contribution to make. But... let's be honest here, feminism articles aren't really any worse for that than most others. Ikanreed (talk) 23:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- A more nuanced approach would be to stop acting like this is all basic stuff that does not need citing or explaining and anyone who asks for such is automatically an MRA. It is not in fact stuff that only idiots wouldn't grasp, it takes a while to grasp if you happen to have to build your own opinion based on the rag tag plethora of differently biased info that is out there and your education has not included much relating to sociology. Nullahnung (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- No worries, I was just trying to make it clear that a decision to focus on the truly disturbing (and in my eyes societally and personally harmful) anti-feminists over the, by comparison, minor issues with "culture feminism" is one that I can understand, and agree with. The potential damage that a Sarkeesian can cause is after all negligible (I doubt many, if anyone, will get a worse opinion of gamers/game designers due to her writings and even if they do, that's hardly a problem). By contrast, PUAs not only denigrate women in the public sphere through their derogatory language, but PUA "techniques" seems to be pretty much amount to low intensity psychological bullying and harassment targeting their "marks'" self-esteem and thus constituting direct (attempts at) harmful behaviour towards specific persons. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I didn't mean that to be an end-all be all summary of the discussion. I spun it off as a topic because there's probably some room to try to work within that framework to eliminate the problems we do get. I just meant that we can't have a summary decision on removing feminist bias on the wiki, due to on-missionness of some of it. There may still be a more nuanced approach here. Ikanreed (talk) 15:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Both feminism and anti-feminism are crank magnets, because pretty much any sort of utopian politics is a crank magnet, and attempting to remake the relationship between the sexes based on an ideological blueprint is utopian. (Is "biotruth" the latest cant for "evilutionism"?) Now a lot of the feminist woo is tied up in eccentric religious ideas and pseudo-history; and they've been around for a long time and are fairly familiar. More problematic is the ideology-driven belief in human malleability that leads to evolution denial: some feminist ideology seems to deny that male and female brains are wired differently, or that differences in body chemistry cause differences in behavior. It imagines that these things can be changed by campaigns for social reform.
- Feminism only seems saner than anti-feminism because it's more common and more familiar. It's rather like how for the time being Mormons seem a bit saner than Scientologists. Both founding legends are equally unlikely. Both were founded by leaders who were real nutsacks. One is closer in time than the other and easier for us to see. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 20:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Since you aren't familiar, "Biotruths" is simplisitic bullshit projections of sexism onto the framework of evolutionary psychology to reach predetermined conclusions, often without any sort of serious scientific substantiation. Now if you want to construct a strawman human tabula rasa as the alternative to that, go ahead and take that shit apart, but that's not what's in our articles, and you know it. Meanwhile our articles include a lot of focus on biases, systemic social problems, and observational science. You got some points actually backed up by scientific literature, rather than regurgitating "common sense" as "good science". If you can find even one damn subsection from any of the host of feminism articles on rationalwiki that engages in the no biological differences bullshit you're railing against, I'll be surprised.
- What I'm saying is fuck off with this dishonest shit. Ikanreed (talk) 21:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with the OP that it's a biased website and I disagree with many of the views here - though that's part of the site's intent - it doesn't even claim to be neutral, and it's not pretending to be a serious encyclopedia from the get go (like Conservapedia is). Bias on its own isn't necessary bad unless it's presented as absolute truth.--206.255.11.166 (talk) 21:13, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Is there some specific reason why WIGO World archives of June 2014 is deleted and no more archives since then is found? ThiehInsomnia? Masturbate till you pass out 01:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- This discussion should have been started on the appropriate talk page, but nevermind. I don't know about the deleted page, but otherwise the reason is because the bot archiving the WIGOs is no longer active.--ZooGuard (talk) 07:37, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I've got a new potential article for the site sitting in my sandbox and I think it's ready for its initial roll-out, but I'm not sure if it qualifies as a "stub" or not. Does having multiple sections and a list of references disqualify it? Is there anything more I need to do before making it a Real Live Boy Article? --Pere Ubu (talk) 20:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- A stub is a very short article - a paragraph or less - that presumably needs to be expanded in the future to be useful. Your draft is not a stub, but it could go into more depth instead of just quoting large chunks of text. BTW, section headings are supposed to be in sentence case.--ZooGuard (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] Does not look stubby to me. I'd say roll it down the alley and see how many pins fall over. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 20:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well, here goes nothing. Appreciate the feedback. CRY HAVOC AND RELEASE THE PUGS OF SNARK! --Pere Ubu (talk) 20:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to define a stub as a page you don't have to scroll down to read it all. SophieWilder
20:51, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think your article draft is a stub but will comment on one section and offer a source for possible expansion. I have read a bit of recent research on Phineas Gage and think the section might be better omitted or require some major changes. Before such significant changes, might need further research to check for legitimate arguments to the contrary. The section on Gage might be best reformatted to fit Malcolm Macmillan's description-possibly in a snarky manner. Arachne1988 (talk) 08:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- But that depends on your screen's resolution. :P 03:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to define a stub as a page you don't have to scroll down to read it all. SophieWilder
- Well, here goes nothing. Appreciate the feedback. CRY HAVOC AND RELEASE THE PUGS OF SNARK! --Pere Ubu (talk) 20:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] Does not look stubby to me. I'd say roll it down the alley and see how many pins fall over. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 20:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
From what I can tell, the two of them appear to be members of one another in an infinite loop. Thanos6 (talk) 23:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- What's your point? Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- That's not how categories generally work, is it? Thanos6 (talk) 23:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? The categories are there for navigation, like "see also" links. Multiple categories containing each other don't actually create a "loop" in any meaningful sense. As for definitions, they're fairly parallel concepts. Is social justice an example of identity politics or is identity politics an example of social justice? Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 00:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? The categories are there for navigation, like "see also" links. Multiple categories containing each other don't actually create a "loop" in any meaningful sense. As for definitions, they're fairly parallel concepts. Is social justice an example of identity politics or is identity politics an example of social justice? Wëäŝëïöïď
- That's not how categories generally work, is it? Thanos6 (talk) 23:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
The following was posted by User:Pcste as an article, and moved here.
Rationalwiki
Main article
Please do not believe everything you read at rational wiki, infact because it is proven that some articles are fake or false in truth, then you have to consider that they all may be corrupt in some way. RationalWiki has shown beyond any reasonable doubt that it is virulently ideological and that the only safe position to take is to treat any information it contains as suspect and that it cannot be taken at face value without verification from more credible external sources.
See also
- Links to other RationalWiki articles go here.
External links
http://byfaithweunderstand.com/2013/10/22/rational-wiki-summarizes-my-stanley-fish-paper/ http://greylining.com/2012/12/15/rationalwiki-showing-its-anything-but-again/
References
- If you are using advanced reference, like books, they can be listed here.
Footnotes
Soo many people called us biased, and try to refute our pages outside this site. It's kinda pathetic, due to the fact they have to distort information.— Unsigned, by: TemplarJLS / talk / contribs 04:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Who on earth could ever read the unbiased articles on rationalwiki and claim that such unbiased writing is anything but unbiased!?!?!? --Shabidoo (talk) 03:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yup, there are no RW pages with factual inaccuracies on them whatsoever. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see how this topic was even brought up. Smalltoejoe (talk) 19:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yup, there are no RW pages with factual inaccuracies on them whatsoever. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
a few statements
You have an interesting Wiki and I like your posts on the PsuedoScience Anti-GMO and Anti-Vaccination movements. Your articles on Conspiracy Theorists also expose bullshit, but your articles on Libertarianism and Ron Paul are hopelessly flawed, you just say: "its bullshit, Paulbots, Paulbots" but explain nothing. And while that works for David Icke, that does not work against backed up arguments. Your cranks list with the exception of the ecofascists is focused entirely on the right-wing. You are more left leaning than you claim, so all rationality is gone. Some users, such as Blue, even admit to being socialists, hows that for a fringe idea? Also it is quite pathetic to ban someone before you even let them join your group. I enjoy hearing your psuedo-arguments on how what I said is bullshit.— Unsigned, by: Ancapvolo / talk / contribs 14:18, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "our group" and who exactly has been "banned before letting them join" it? It's possible that you've been caught in a spammer's IP block or the Abuse Filter.--ZooGuard (talk) 14:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Unless you mean a certain Facebook group, which is an entirely different entity from the wiki. There is a small overlap of memebership, but each has its own quirks.--ZooGuard (talk) 15:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Some users, such as Blue, even admit to being socialists, hows that for a fringe idea?" I'm glad you've managed to sniff out a card carrying Red in our midst, McCarthy. Socialism is very fringe, it's only the ideology of these fringe political parties: Labour (UK), SPD (Germany), PD (Italy), Socialist Party (France), Swedish Social Democratic Party. It's only represented on the national level in every European country, generally as the ruling or opposition ideology. What a moron. --Marlow (talk) 15:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, technically they are "merely" social democracy, which would be considered far left in the USA anyway. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
X-Men! Welcome... TO DIE!!! 14:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Socialism is the primary component of the ideology of social democratic parties. The point is that it is not even remotely a fringe ideology, quite the opposite, it is a major issue for a huge number of political parties. Outside of Europe socialism is an important part of Indian politics and is part of the platform of both the INC and BJP. Oh and this little country called China, I seem to recall they have some passing interest in socialist ideas. So I think it's safe to say that the majority of the world lives under some form of socialism or another. --Marlow (talk) 15:59, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Social democracy != socialism, and followers of the former does not appreciate being lumped with the latter. Remember, Eduard Bernstein formed social democracy because he thought collective and/or state ownership of property was unworkable. Unless you use the definition of socialism as "Keynesian economics plus social justice" most "socialist" parties use today. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Flipping out the buttered fuck crumpets 16:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- We're getting into semantics here. Suffice it to say socialism, in one form or another, is an important part of contemporary political discourse. Except in the US where it is a snarl word used to frighten people away from policies that are in there own interest. --Marlow (talk) 16:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Social democracy != socialism, and followers of the former does not appreciate being lumped with the latter. Remember, Eduard Bernstein formed social democracy because he thought collective and/or state ownership of property was unworkable. Unless you use the definition of socialism as "Keynesian economics plus social justice" most "socialist" parties use today. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- Socialism is the primary component of the ideology of social democratic parties. The point is that it is not even remotely a fringe ideology, quite the opposite, it is a major issue for a huge number of political parties. Outside of Europe socialism is an important part of Indian politics and is part of the platform of both the INC and BJP. Oh and this little country called China, I seem to recall they have some passing interest in socialist ideas. So I think it's safe to say that the majority of the world lives under some form of socialism or another. --Marlow (talk) 15:59, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, technically they are "merely" social democracy, which would be considered far left in the USA anyway. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- "Some users, such as Blue, even admit to being socialists, hows that for a fringe idea?" I'm glad you've managed to sniff out a card carrying Red in our midst, McCarthy. Socialism is very fringe, it's only the ideology of these fringe political parties: Labour (UK), SPD (Germany), PD (Italy), Socialist Party (France), Swedish Social Democratic Party. It's only represented on the national level in every European country, generally as the ruling or opposition ideology. What a moron. --Marlow (talk) 15:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- your articles on Libertarianism and Ron Paul are hopelessly flawed, you just say: "its bullshit, Paulbots, Paulbots" but explain nothing.
The commentator nails it. And they are impossible to fix, unless you pile on an equal amount of factual (if biased) information to supplant the obvious erroneous bullshit. The real problem is allowing non-American partisans control of articles on domestic US politics. They really don't know shit, and only expose their ignorance with their axes to grind and stubbornness. nobsOne who's been there. 00:46, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Bravo, Rob. I do believe that you said that without any sense of irony, whatsoever.
ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.
19:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Bravo, Rob. I do believe that you said that without any sense of irony, whatsoever.
To claim that someone is irrational just because reality seems to support one side over the other appears to be a case of, at the very least, the balance fallacy. At most, it appears to be someone who is butthurt at the idea that single-payer healthcare systems and social safety nets are functional parts of politics backed up by data while a fanatical devotion to the gold standard and flat taxes are rightly derided by anyone who actually cares about empiricism in economics. And if there are a lot of people who hate me, so what? Last time I checked, you don't vote on what the cold, hard facts say. I'm used to so much hate, I might as well be a liberal atheist in the deep south off the Gulf of Mexico who doesn't like seafood. However, just because one side is wrong more often doesn't mean there's a lack of rationality. Sometimes the truth takes sides. User:PsychoGecko 02:44, 23 July 2014
- This is pretty much my stance on it. When I edited Wikipedia, and somewhat less so here, people would constantly complain about the men's rights movement and the feminist movement being treated differently on website, despite them being completely different movements, with different theories (one of which is considerably better researched), different methods, and, most importantly, different histories. The libertarian movement, that is, people who would earnestly put their personal liberty above the liberty of others, on a political level, must have a sincere lack of empathy or social awareness. The free market is dangerous, as is the complete, unfettered empowerment of the individual, even when it allows him to infringe on others rights. I'm all for government reform, especially in the corrupt US, but laissez-faire capitalism will just create more poverty, and most likely cause divide between the states --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- I heard something funny on Crash Course World History when they got to talking about money and currency. As far as historians have found, there was no barter culture; just systems where people were in debt to each other. He also relates a historian who has a theory that currency really only came about as a way for early bureaucracies to transfer debts between themselves and then the system was used for paying early soldiers when professional armies came about. The soldiers needed immediate payment, not promises of a chicken from an old friend in a week. To afford to pay the soldiers, early kings would force those they conquered to toil in mines as slaves. I'd love to check out that historian's work and see how it measures up, because if he's right, then capitalism and currency based on precious metals were the inventions of bureaucracy and expanding governments that loved war. --User:PsychoGecko 04:16, 25 July 2014
- Libertarians have been in the forefront of marijuana legalization for years; why then are they mocked and demonized by progressives? nobsOne who's been there. 03:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Stopped clock fallacy.
ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.
14:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see what your argument is. Cannabis Law Reform were a legitimate political party here in the United Kingdom but I wouldn't have ever voted for them. There is plenty that libertarians stand for that I do agree with, drug legislation in particular, but I'd leave the country if a libertarian party were ever elected here, the increase in poverty would be enormous --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- I just wanted to mention that Penn Jillette once said that he holds no evidence that libertarian or laissez-faire policies would help the economy or increase the average quality of life. He simply believes the government shouldn't intervene in pretty much anything. Well, at least he's honest. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Burning this game would be an insult to fire. 15:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- "He simply believes the government shouldn't intervene in pretty much anything. Well, at least he's honest." Not quite. Capitalist markets require state or state-like entities to operate in the first place. Libertarians and other hyper-capitalists simply want the state to intervene on the side of capital. See P&T's Walmart episode, for example. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- That state only exists for one reason alone: cause the greedy capitalist employers pay taxes to defend their interests. It sure as fuck isn't the poor and unemployed who pay the cost of government.nobsOne who's been there. 02:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because the capitalist Übermenschen like totally create money out of thin air by their amazing hard work and unique talents and courage and blahblah, while poor and unemployed people are just lazy and inferior and worthless and have never lifted so much as a finger and totally deserve to be miserable. Right. *sigh*
- Funny enough, I was surprised to learn not long ago that George Orwell, the anti-gummint anti-commie patron saint, was ... a socialist. Well, he favoured democratic socialism. But to consies and libtards, it's apparently all the same, democratic socialism and totalitarian Stalinist dictatorship and social democracy, why because every flavour of leftie politics always ends up in a hellhole. While a free market would lead to paradise. Social Darwinism ftw, after all it's a just world all the way.
- (Also, seriously, boo-hoo, poor Americans, carrying the weight of the world ... even though nobody ever asked them to in the first place and most of the rest of the world wishes they'd rather mind their own business and finally let the UN do their job as world police, with or without US support, at least the UN are more neutral and thus better cut out for the task. All the whining about Americans being the Jesus Christ among nations, needing to suffer at the cross of dog-eat-dog capitalism for the sake of the salvation of the rest of the world, so that all those little European countries can have their peaceful socialist paradises ... give me a break. In the sixties and seventies, US politics were far more leftist, social-democracy style, and I see no evidence that it inhibited their ability to play world police in any shape or form. How about trying raining-down and trickle-up economy again ... because, erm, when it was tried before it actually worked?!)
- PsychoGecko: What you are talking about sounds like it might ultimately be based on the book Debt: The First 5,000 Years by David Graeber. --84.151.172.34 (talk) 19:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- From what I've looked up, that appears to be where Crash Course: World History got the idea from. The Crash Course series often gets on the bad side of the conservative/libertarian bunch. Back to economics, we've had periods in time when we were extremely close to the libertarian ideal. Except then we created the Constitution because libertarian government was so incompetent that they couldn't save the Articles of Confederation. Ever since then, as people's rights progressed and more people became better off, it's generally been at the cost of the libertarian ideal. Unlimited property rights were abolished thanks to the Civil War. Workers got rights in the late 1800s, early 1900s. Protections were put in place to help society as a whole after the Great Depression. Heck, libertarians were the ones on the segregation side of things, when the Federal government was the entity that had to come in and keep white Southerners from oppressing black people. --User:PsychoGecko 21:59, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Graeber, what a pile of horse manure. What did the delegates to the American Constitutional Convention sleep and eat on for the months they were drafting the Constitution? did they live in shanties at Hooverville and dine on their EBT cards til their food stamp allotment was used up? No. They slept and dined in hotels with the funds from accumulated capital while drafting the Constitution. Do you really think piss poor idiots have the slightest means, let alone brains, to draft something like the bill of rights, in between flying a sign and waiting in line at the day labor hall for enough scratch to buy tonights dinner? Get real. nobs"It all depends what Isil is" 20:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Considering that they were sent their by their respective states, I don't find it ridiculous at all that those states would choose to pay them. Even if they didn't, we are talking about a who's who of Rich Revolutionaries here. But you may have noticed that those same states didn't feel much like sending sufficient arms, uniforms, or food to the army that was fighting for their independence. It was only their own lives on the line, and it turned out that a Federal government that could only request, not compel, led to fellows like George Washington and Henry Knox wanting a strong Federal government. Thomas Jefferson hated that in peace time they couldn't even fund an expedition to fight off the Barbary Pirates because the states didn't care enough to send sufficient funds. The Confederation didn't even have enough power to force British troops off the country's soil. They only wound up leaving when a new treaty was written after the Constitution was formed. Plus, because Congress couldn't get money from the states, it had to print its own. That's right, lack of a strong central government led to inflation, the boogeyman of libertarians. You even saw Shays' Rebellion happen during this time period. There was a lack of hard currency on the state level (something libertarians love, which always favors lenders over debtors). Making this worse, Revolutionary war veterans hadn't been paid their full wages and there wasn't much of a way for poor farmers to compel people to give them their pay (turns out lawsuits favor the rich too, since they can easily pay for them). This led to land seizures where rich lendors got to take land from poorer farmers. Lendors, as the ones with money, took control of the state government to force the poor to pay debts worsened by a lack of credit and hard currency (turns out regulation of credit and currency is pretty useful for a government). When riots broke out, the elites drew up the Riot Act, which suspended habeas corpus(and here Ron Paul thinks only Federal governments can be tyrannical). Eventually, after the fighting was over entirely by a privately funded militia troops (the government being too weak to fund troops to put down a civil war in 1/13th of the country), the government there had to suspend debts in order to improve the situation. Of course, the Confederate States later thought of reviving some of the libertarian ideals of the Articles of Confederation, so I hope you can see just how stable such a government makes a country. --User:PsychoGecko 00:59, 24 September, 2014
- Interesting argument but several holes can be punched in it. Let's look at just one in particular an earlier poster also alluded to: because Congress couldn't get money from the states, it had to print its own (never mind the the "only gold and silver shall be legal tender" clause of the original Constitution); the earlier poster wrote capitalist Übermenschen like totally create money out of thin air. Now in both cases (Constitutional framers of the gold standard and capitalist Ubermensch), inflation is anathema and totally self-defeating.
- All "money" is, is a representation of stored up labor, that is, labor that has already been performed and now enters the marketplace to exchange for equal quantities of other peoples labor. Nothing more, nothing less. It has no value in itself. The idea money = wealth is a false trail and dead end path only fools take. No wonder America and the world have such unsolvable problems when the country and planet are populated by such idiots. nobs"It all depends what Isil is" 02:02, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- You cannot create money – as in the value associated by society, not its physical or electronic representations, of course – out of thin air; it is indeed a representation of labour (but not only; that is only a consequence of it representing things that humans value). Labour that entrepreneurs direct and organise, but that they do not perform themselves. That was kinda what I was getting at. *facepalm*
- Of course money does not have any inherent value, independent of humans, just like scratches in a stone don't have any inherent meaning. It's all social convention; a collective delusion, if you will. By definition, however, if you have a lot of money, even if not necessarily in a physical form, you are wealthy. (That does not mean that money is a necessary prerequisite to wealth, since you can possess other things, even something as abstract as rights, but it is a sufficient condition.) I don't see what that has to do with anything. --84.151.172.34 (talk) 18:21, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed, if anything, money is the most salient representation of the vast, tangled web of obligations that human societies are held together by. Nothing better represents the all-encompassing interdependence characterising the human condition as a social animal. As clichéd as the saying is, but no man is an island. The lone wolf is romantic nonsense. Something that libertarians have never fully understood. --84.151.172.34 (talk) 18:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- If a lone wolf breaks wind in the forest where there is no one to hear him, does it make a sound? Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Considering that they were sent their by their respective states, I don't find it ridiculous at all that those states would choose to pay them. Even if they didn't, we are talking about a who's who of Rich Revolutionaries here. But you may have noticed that those same states didn't feel much like sending sufficient arms, uniforms, or food to the army that was fighting for their independence. It was only their own lives on the line, and it turned out that a Federal government that could only request, not compel, led to fellows like George Washington and Henry Knox wanting a strong Federal government. Thomas Jefferson hated that in peace time they couldn't even fund an expedition to fight off the Barbary Pirates because the states didn't care enough to send sufficient funds. The Confederation didn't even have enough power to force British troops off the country's soil. They only wound up leaving when a new treaty was written after the Constitution was formed. Plus, because Congress couldn't get money from the states, it had to print its own. That's right, lack of a strong central government led to inflation, the boogeyman of libertarians. You even saw Shays' Rebellion happen during this time period. There was a lack of hard currency on the state level (something libertarians love, which always favors lenders over debtors). Making this worse, Revolutionary war veterans hadn't been paid their full wages and there wasn't much of a way for poor farmers to compel people to give them their pay (turns out lawsuits favor the rich too, since they can easily pay for them). This led to land seizures where rich lendors got to take land from poorer farmers. Lendors, as the ones with money, took control of the state government to force the poor to pay debts worsened by a lack of credit and hard currency (turns out regulation of credit and currency is pretty useful for a government). When riots broke out, the elites drew up the Riot Act, which suspended habeas corpus(and here Ron Paul thinks only Federal governments can be tyrannical). Eventually, after the fighting was over entirely by a privately funded militia troops (the government being too weak to fund troops to put down a civil war in 1/13th of the country), the government there had to suspend debts in order to improve the situation. Of course, the Confederate States later thought of reviving some of the libertarian ideals of the Articles of Confederation, so I hope you can see just how stable such a government makes a country. --User:PsychoGecko 00:59, 24 September, 2014
- Graeber, what a pile of horse manure. What did the delegates to the American Constitutional Convention sleep and eat on for the months they were drafting the Constitution? did they live in shanties at Hooverville and dine on their EBT cards til their food stamp allotment was used up? No. They slept and dined in hotels with the funds from accumulated capital while drafting the Constitution. Do you really think piss poor idiots have the slightest means, let alone brains, to draft something like the bill of rights, in between flying a sign and waiting in line at the day labor hall for enough scratch to buy tonights dinner? Get real. nobs"It all depends what Isil is" 20:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- From what I've looked up, that appears to be where Crash Course: World History got the idea from. The Crash Course series often gets on the bad side of the conservative/libertarian bunch. Back to economics, we've had periods in time when we were extremely close to the libertarian ideal. Except then we created the Constitution because libertarian government was so incompetent that they couldn't save the Articles of Confederation. Ever since then, as people's rights progressed and more people became better off, it's generally been at the cost of the libertarian ideal. Unlimited property rights were abolished thanks to the Civil War. Workers got rights in the late 1800s, early 1900s. Protections were put in place to help society as a whole after the Great Depression. Heck, libertarians were the ones on the segregation side of things, when the Federal government was the entity that had to come in and keep white Southerners from oppressing black people. --User:PsychoGecko 21:59, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- That state only exists for one reason alone: cause the greedy capitalist employers pay taxes to defend their interests. It sure as fuck isn't the poor and unemployed who pay the cost of government.nobsOne who's been there. 02:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- "He simply believes the government shouldn't intervene in pretty much anything. Well, at least he's honest." Not quite. Capitalist markets require state or state-like entities to operate in the first place. Libertarians and other hyper-capitalists simply want the state to intervene on the side of capital. See P&T's Walmart episode, for example. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- I just wanted to mention that Penn Jillette once said that he holds no evidence that libertarian or laissez-faire policies would help the economy or increase the average quality of life. He simply believes the government shouldn't intervene in pretty much anything. Well, at least he's honest. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- Stopped clock fallacy.
- Libertarians have been in the forefront of marijuana legalization for years; why then are they mocked and demonized by progressives? nobsOne who's been there. 03:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- I heard something funny on Crash Course World History when they got to talking about money and currency. As far as historians have found, there was no barter culture; just systems where people were in debt to each other. He also relates a historian who has a theory that currency really only came about as a way for early bureaucracies to transfer debts between themselves and then the system was used for paying early soldiers when professional armies came about. The soldiers needed immediate payment, not promises of a chicken from an old friend in a week. To afford to pay the soldiers, early kings would force those they conquered to toil in mines as slaves. I'd love to check out that historian's work and see how it measures up, because if he's right, then capitalism and currency based on precious metals were the inventions of bureaucracy and expanding governments that loved war. --User:PsychoGecko 04:16, 25 July 2014
Someone on this site should check out this guy and his theory;
Ronald Patrick Marriott
Relativistic Perturbation Mantle
He is really out there.— Unsigned, by: Cmbisme / talk / contribs 16:56, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
- This discussion was moved here from RationalWiki:Saloon bar. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
Methinks it is a Weasel 12:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The RationalWiki Facebook "Blunt Knives" Coup
For those of you that aren't aware, some MRA's on the FB group were adminned, and went on some grade-school level bullshit, kicking out several folks and admins (David Gerard, being one of the casualties), all because they got called out on some bullshit. What. The. Fuck.... User:TokenSkepticMagician Talk, comments and 'UR a faq lols' 8:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- That is BASELESS SLANDER of respected RationalWikians like Ace and Goonie. The active group is here - David Gerard (talk) 23:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- What makes me an MRA? Acei9 23:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- You are not in any way an MRA. Hijacking the old group was a bit of a dick move, though. Which is why everyone is leaving and coming to the new group. WE ARE LIBRE RATIONAL WIKI. You are APACHE OPEN OFFICE and OPEN SSL IN ONE. - David Gerard (talk) 23:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- You would look dashing in a fedora though, Ace. --Kels (talk) 23:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- Basically, hijacking the group and banning a pile of people 'cos you're butthurt about a Facebook argument? Ace, you literally just became Conservapedia. Hope you're proud! - David Gerard (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- You would look dashing in a fedora though, Ace. --Kels (talk) 23:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- You are not in any way an MRA. Hijacking the old group was a bit of a dick move, though. Which is why everyone is leaving and coming to the new group. WE ARE LIBRE RATIONAL WIKI. You are APACHE OPEN OFFICE and OPEN SSL IN ONE. - David Gerard (talk) 23:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- What makes me an MRA? Acei9 23:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Hey Ace, how can you justify launching a backhanded coup like this? Are you that petty? Lager (talk) 23:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ace went full Schlafly. You NEVER go full Schlafly - David Gerard (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- This is like the time he removed all the moderators' rights except his own--72.201.14.142 (talk) 00:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The sad thing is this isn't even the first time he's done something like this. TyJFBAA 00:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You can smell the butthurt from over here. 'I DIDN'T GET MUH WAY SO I'M GUNNA BAAAAAAN!!!' It's cool, though. With the new page, my jimmies are unrustled. TokenSkepticMagician Talk, comments and 'UR a fag lols' 9:05 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The sad thing is this isn't even the first time he's done something like this. TyJFBAA 00:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- This is like the time he removed all the moderators' rights except his own--72.201.14.142 (talk) 00:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Why is this sad excuse for a human still around? Lager (talk) 00:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- As an example of what too much Conservapedia can do to a human. He starts thinking its ways are a good idea - David Gerard (talk) 00:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
There is no problem. Everything is fine. We love everyone! Even Ace. The group is at this URL. It's all good!` - David Gerard (talk) 00:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do you all really think Ace acted alone? I'd wager he did not. 109.74.151.149 (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- WE HAVE PLENTY OF LOVE HERE, I ASSURE YOU. FOR EVERYONE. - David Gerard (talk) 00:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do you all really think Ace acted alone? I'd wager he did not. 109.74.151.149 (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
These idiots literally called themselves the Blunt Knives. Fuck me, that's ridiculous. YOU STARED INTO THE ABYSS TOO LONG. YOU WENT FULL SCHLAFLY. NEVER GO FULL SCHLAFLY. They achieved blowing their own bums off - David Gerard (talk) 00:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I expected nothing more than what happened. I was just happy to watch it unfold. Acei9 01:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
So, given his general dipshittery, can we get Ace banned from the Wiki? Lager (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Under what grounds would I be banned from the wiki? Just as an aside not one of the group were MRA's by any stripe and I challenge anyone who thinks otherwise to provide some sort of evidence of such. Acei9 01:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Nah, the wiki tolerated Marcus Cicero - David Gerard (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
For those wondering what the fuck: [1]. NO, IT TURNS OUT IF YOU TELL AN AFFECTED PERSON THAT THEIR PROBLEMS AREN'T PROBLEMS, YOU'RE JUST A BIT OF A FUCKWIT. - David Gerard (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- David, why do you keep shouting? ħuman
03:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
So, Ace, you destroyed a social group. Thanks for contributing to civilization. History will always remember you as a hero. Lager (talk) 01:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Well that's good - I leave a legacy for my daughter. Acei9 01:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You guys give Ace waaaaay more credit for this than he's due. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 02:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Marcus Cicero was an inspired provocateur and Tisane did not advocate paedophilia so much as make some unedifying but interesting philosophical points. Sorry to hear that the FB group has splintered but can't say I care too much - I hope no one invested too much work into it.Tielec01 (talk) 03:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- 'twas shit anyway. It's like 4chan with way more painfully forced memes. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
They were trying to combine themselves to form some sort of molestation Voltron 03:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- An almost comically shortsighted assessment. Also: "'twas," really?--
talk
03:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- 'tis the "y'all" of yesteryear. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Burning this game would be an insult to fire. 03:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- 'tis the "y'all" of yesteryear. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- An almost comically shortsighted assessment. Also: "'twas," really?--
- 'twas shit anyway. It's like 4chan with way more painfully forced memes. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- Marcus Cicero was an inspired provocateur and Tisane did not advocate paedophilia so much as make some unedifying but interesting philosophical points. Sorry to hear that the FB group has splintered but can't say I care too much - I hope no one invested too much work into it.Tielec01 (talk) 03:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You guys give Ace waaaaay more credit for this than he's due. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 02:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
HOW TO FIX THE WIKI
GUYS I HAVE AN IDEA TO CLEAN UP THIS PLACE. WE GET RID OF ALL THE GENDER STUFF. IT'S OFF MISSION AND NOT RATIONAL. I THINK WE COULD CUT IT ALL AWAY WITH A BLUNT KNIFE. WE WON'T BLOW OUR OWN ARSES OFF NO - David Gerard (talk) 01:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Cut off genders with a blunt knife? that sounds so painful. but, you know, to each his own.One tin soldier (talk) 01:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- 10/10 would recommend this plan--Miekal 01:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You know, it's quite possible to have a decent and rational discussion about this topic without going off the handle. Sure, what Ace did is shitty, but I also have to say I'm disappointed in the reaction some people have had to anything approaching discussion of the missionality of certain social issues. - Grant (talk) 02:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- but I also have to say I'm disappointed in the reaction some people have had to anything approaching discussion the missionality of certain social issues This. Acei9 02:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- So far as I'm concerned, gender wasn't even the topic until y'all made it the issue to justify being called out on some of you abuses of power. I have no problem, at all, with discussions of feminism or refutations of MRAs. That's fine. What is not fine is using gender equality as the means to rule without accountability, which is exactly what you all did both on the Facebook page in question, and again when you brought the discussion here. In my opinion (and the opinions of some of my lady friends whom I've told about what was going on), you did a disservice to the cause of gender equality by injecting where it wasn't the topic and using to silence people and make them look bad. It was a move worthy of Karl Rove. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 04:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- but I also have to say I'm disappointed in the reaction some people have had to anything approaching discussion the missionality of certain social issues This. Acei9 02:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You know, it's quite possible to have a decent and rational discussion about this topic without going off the handle. Sure, what Ace did is shitty, but I also have to say I'm disappointed in the reaction some people have had to anything approaching discussion of the missionality of certain social issues. - Grant (talk) 02:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- 10/10 would recommend this plan--Miekal 01:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Facebook-induced HCM
Can any non-involved, non-partisan party sum up what the fuck is going on on Facebook? Like, can someone say this specific person did this specific thing in as neutral a way as possible, without assigning roles and motivations to any action? It's a clusterfuck, to be sure, but now we have a schism, and it seems people have to choose sides if they want to be involved with RW on Facebook, which is exactly the sort of puerile bullshit I've always tried to avoid. Who can take a crack without taking potshots or making ad hominems. DickTurpis (talk) 01:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- according to this and what i've gathered some admins attempted a purge of the facebook group. Afaict,that post is accurate, and apparently ace was involved and did some of it, thats probably the best youll get from anybody who wasnt part of it for now.--Miekal 02:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I got that, but let's put the fucking cards on the table and name names here. Let people defend their positions. I see a lot of "MRA" accusations thrown around, and I've been on this site for many years, and while I certainly don't agree with some of the old guard on everything, I don't think any of them are MRAs. It's starting to look like the commie accusations of the '50s. Can we get some, I don't know, rational discussion going on this BS? Or have lines been drawn in the cement so it's too late? DickTurpis (talk) 02:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with Dick on this. All I see in the discussion above is a bunch of adults acting like children, regardless of who's right and who's wrong. I'm not inclined to go check the Facebook group myself because I have a funny feeling I'm just going to see much of the same there. I would like to see a neutral summary of what happened, who was responsible, and why it happened. Is that really too much to ask for? - Grant (talk) 02:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah I am in no way an MRA but have been accused of that, I have also just been accused of personally stalking and harassing Rationwiki members by KnightofTL;DR who deleted the thread when I asked her to support of withdraw the accusation. I might be a right asshole but I never personally stalked anyone off-wiki or IRL so that is a mystery to me. I basically got sick of the BS that RWFB became so caused carnage. My only goal was to cause carnage. Not because I didn't want to discuss particular issues nor because I didn't like being told what to do by female admins but basically because the admins become pretty shitty. Ah well, just trying to go about my day. Acei9 02:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Where's RWW when we need it? DickTurpis (talk) 02:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Well thanks for explaining what happened, Ace. So far that comment was more informative than everything else posted about this so far. - Grant (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Except not entirely accurate. I also contributed because to the chaos, after having voiced my concerns in David Gerard's secret Admin Lounge group about the way the page was being run, multiple times, mind you, I was met with nothing more than dismissal and accusations of sexism that, given the charity I contribute hundreds of dollars and hours to every year, I found disgusting. After having given up, I started a separate group (the now-infamous RW Blunt Knives) to discuss a course of action. Not because I'm some sexist piece of shit, but because I hated that the people who were running the Facebook RW were turning it into a glorified 4-chan and, worse, the administrators themselves were taking zero responsibility for their actions (some of which were totally unjustified) and meeting those concerns with ad hominem attacks and nothing more. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 02:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. - Grant (talk) 02:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- the people who were running the Facebook RW were turning it into a glorified 4-chan Hammer, meet nail. You know what, not even 4chan level, since 4chan is at least funny. --|₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Maaaayyyybeeee you'll think of me when you are all alone 02:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- the people who were running the Facebook RW were turning it into a glorified 4-chan Hammer, meet nail. You know what, not even 4chan level, since 4chan is at least funny. --|₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- Thanks for the clarification. - Grant (talk) 02:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Except not entirely accurate. I also contributed because to the chaos, after having voiced my concerns in David Gerard's secret Admin Lounge group about the way the page was being run, multiple times, mind you, I was met with nothing more than dismissal and accusations of sexism that, given the charity I contribute hundreds of dollars and hours to every year, I found disgusting. After having given up, I started a separate group (the now-infamous RW Blunt Knives) to discuss a course of action. Not because I'm some sexist piece of shit, but because I hated that the people who were running the Facebook RW were turning it into a glorified 4-chan and, worse, the administrators themselves were taking zero responsibility for their actions (some of which were totally unjustified) and meeting those concerns with ad hominem attacks and nothing more. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 02:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Well thanks for explaining what happened, Ace. So far that comment was more informative than everything else posted about this so far. - Grant (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Where's RWW when we need it? DickTurpis (talk) 02:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah I am in no way an MRA but have been accused of that, I have also just been accused of personally stalking and harassing Rationwiki members by KnightofTL;DR who deleted the thread when I asked her to support of withdraw the accusation. I might be a right asshole but I never personally stalked anyone off-wiki or IRL so that is a mystery to me. I basically got sick of the BS that RWFB became so caused carnage. My only goal was to cause carnage. Not because I didn't want to discuss particular issues nor because I didn't like being told what to do by female admins but basically because the admins become pretty shitty. Ah well, just trying to go about my day. Acei9 02:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with Dick on this. All I see in the discussion above is a bunch of adults acting like children, regardless of who's right and who's wrong. I'm not inclined to go check the Facebook group myself because I have a funny feeling I'm just going to see much of the same there. I would like to see a neutral summary of what happened, who was responsible, and why it happened. Is that really too much to ask for? - Grant (talk) 02:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I got that, but let's put the fucking cards on the table and name names here. Let people defend their positions. I see a lot of "MRA" accusations thrown around, and I've been on this site for many years, and while I certainly don't agree with some of the old guard on everything, I don't think any of them are MRAs. It's starting to look like the commie accusations of the '50s. Can we get some, I don't know, rational discussion going on this BS? Or have lines been drawn in the cement so it's too late? DickTurpis (talk) 02:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, here's an issue. In order to keep everything above board, it's nice to know who everyone's talking about. Thing is, names on RW and FB are usually not the same, as FB names are generally their real ones. I don't like to out people, but there are open secrets. I know who Ace is IRL, and now I think I know who Knight of TL;DR is, though I didn't until now. Should I assume we use FB names on FB and RW names on RW, and never the twain shall meet? DickTurpis (talk) 02:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Well I have never outed anybody although knight is coming up with all these fanciful stories about me harrasing people and them having to hide their identities from me which is...weird. It seems I am not allowed to ask her to substantiate said claims either. Acei9 02:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Don't use real names here. Never the twain shall meet is a good policy. Tielec01 (talk) 03:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed; doing otherwise seems more than a bit dickish. I wouldn't be pleased if someone dug into my identity and exposed it on the wiki. - Grant (talk) 03:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- DOX DOX DOX Grant's real name is Grant, and he's a physicist!!! This is top secret information!!!1 DOX DOX DOX |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Maaaayyyybeeee you'll think of me when you are all alone 03:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- DOX DOX DOX Grant's real name is Grant, and he's a physicist!!! This is top secret information!!!1 DOX DOX DOX |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
- Indeed; doing otherwise seems more than a bit dickish. I wouldn't be pleased if someone dug into my identity and exposed it on the wiki. - Grant (talk) 03:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Don't use real names here. Never the twain shall meet is a good policy. Tielec01 (talk) 03:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
You guys suck at coups, just sayin' Lager (talk) 04:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given I wasn't intending to install myself as the 'head' or even be an admin then it isn't to surprising, no? Acei9 04:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Lager, did you have anything constructive to add to this discussion? Last I checked, there's a perfectly good discussion for people making inane comments further up the page. - Grant (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Except that's not really what went down. Basically, some admins that were sick of being called out on their misogynistic crap formed Blunt Knifes, and rejoined only to ban anyone. The thing is, they didn't want ANY discussions on gender inequality on the page; even Sophie admits this. TokenSkepticMagician Talk, comments and 'UR a fag lols' 15:43 June 17 2014 (UTC)
- Sophie is either wrong or lying in claiming such. No, I, myself, started Blunt Knives to form a coup of sorts and demolish the nonsense that had taken over FBRW. Gender issues never had anything to do with it until the morons whom I would later form a coup against started using "you're a sexist" as the excuse for everything. Disgusted, I decided to burn the place down. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Just to be clear on this, aren't you one of the regular people who moan and groan about 'missionality' whenever a gender issue comes up? And that all gender issues should be removed from the Wiki for non-missionality? --Castaigne (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, I've never complained about "missionality" when a gender issue came up, though I do complain about missionality when something/anything comes up that isn't mission-worthy. I do think that we should fork off a gender wiki somewhere, but that is because there is a lot there that doesn't exactly fit into RationalWiki's mission and, moreover, don't think that if such a thing were to happen it would necessitate us eliminating our articles on gender issues because "they are covered elsewhere." No, but I think they should have a gender-issues centered home precisely because they are an issue large enough to occupy their own place. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Listen to yourself Magic-Man - some admins that were sick of being called out on their misogynistic crap I have never been called out on any misogynistic crap and have never given any indication of misogyny in my 7 year of being part of RW. 7 years buddy, 7 years. I have been here 7 years and you think now, all of a sudden based on not one single thing, you think I flip because I have been called out on misogynistic crap? Get your fucking head read. Acei9 07:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- (EC) But you don't have to take my word for it. Ace and Sophie can confirm for you that I was the driving force behind the coup and that I have never said anything about RW's discussion of gender issues being a problem. And if they tell you otherwise, I defy them to provide you with proof. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You and Goonie claimed Olivia was baiting people into being sexists. Leaving aside how the fuck someone could possibly do that, nothing like that actually happened, and you denied the guy was even being one. Then when she posted the actual insane gibbering messages the fuckwit had been sending her, you still denied it was actually a problem. Then you reacted not by saying "wow, that guy was a problem, you called that early", you decided the victim of the abuse was the problem and got together with others to try to get her kicked off the group - David Gerard (talk) 07:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- (EC) You seem focused on this one incident, even though if you were to look around, I had been complaining about the RW Facebook page for months, and this incident had little to do with what went down today. I will even conceed that Olivia was right on that one. But then to turn every conversation I get into around and go, "well, you're a man, so you are sexist," what the fuck is that shit? I volunteer at a charity for domestic abuse victims, what the fuck have you done for your cause? Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You and Goonie claimed Olivia was baiting people into being sexists. - No Olivia was just straight up being a fucking dick to people who hadn't done anything at all. I never mentioned sexism, my query was regarding why she baited and banned him.
- So the insane gibbering messages the fuckwit had been sending her. - was that before or after she had abused the guy and threatened a ban? Acei9 07:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- And for fucks sake Gerard, listen to yourself and to Magic-Man and KnightTlDr et al. Do you really think the issue here, as being propagated, is that a bunch of MRA's got sick of talking about gender issues and staged a coup? Really - is that what is really happening here? Do you really think that was the motive? Or that the fact that is being bandied about is symptomatic of why such a drastic course of action was acted on in the first place. A bunch of MRA's? Really? Acei9 07:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Personally, I think this happened because this has been the go-to course of action for a number of people, mostly old-timers, on the wiki for a long time. Like the RW Rewind Button group that was floated in 2012 which suggested doing almost exactly the same thing with the wiki, and the several times we've seen similar language used out in the open. The only difference is, this time somebody went ahead and did it, illustrating what a dumb idea it was. Reason doesn't even matter at this point, beyond "I was frustrated by something and did something childish in response." --Kels (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The facebook page has annoyed me for a very long time, because like all popular or semi popular pages - mob rule is de jour. If any one starts to pick on someone, the whole room joins in, especially if they can name their target as a particular hated group. (it was fundamentalist, a few months ago, till the mra-like trolls pushed in more frequently). But "reason doesn't even matter at this point" - of course it does, if you want to isolate the semi-functional wiki from the dysfunctional facebook page. Or, it comes here and becomes part of this world. Luckily, i think the main players have said their frustrations lie in / at / with facebook, and not "women's issues" in a more general sense. But those reasons do matter. If anyone can get over the levels of anger, frustration, and child like responses to it all. or.. you know.. not. One tin soldier (talk) 14:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Personally, I think this happened because this has been the go-to course of action for a number of people, mostly old-timers, on the wiki for a long time. Like the RW Rewind Button group that was floated in 2012 which suggested doing almost exactly the same thing with the wiki, and the several times we've seen similar language used out in the open. The only difference is, this time somebody went ahead and did it, illustrating what a dumb idea it was. Reason doesn't even matter at this point, beyond "I was frustrated by something and did something childish in response." --Kels (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- And for fucks sake Gerard, listen to yourself and to Magic-Man and KnightTlDr et al. Do you really think the issue here, as being propagated, is that a bunch of MRA's got sick of talking about gender issues and staged a coup? Really - is that what is really happening here? Do you really think that was the motive? Or that the fact that is being bandied about is symptomatic of why such a drastic course of action was acted on in the first place. A bunch of MRA's? Really? Acei9 07:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Just to be clear on this, aren't you one of the regular people who moan and groan about 'missionality' whenever a gender issue comes up? And that all gender issues should be removed from the Wiki for non-missionality? --Castaigne (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Sophie is either wrong or lying in claiming such. No, I, myself, started Blunt Knives to form a coup of sorts and demolish the nonsense that had taken over FBRW. Gender issues never had anything to do with it until the morons whom I would later form a coup against started using "you're a sexist" as the excuse for everything. Disgusted, I decided to burn the place down. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Except that's not really what went down. Basically, some admins that were sick of being called out on their misogynistic crap formed Blunt Knifes, and rejoined only to ban anyone. The thing is, they didn't want ANY discussions on gender inequality on the page; even Sophie admits this. TokenSkepticMagician Talk, comments and 'UR a fag lols' 15:43 June 17 2014 (UTC)
- Lager, did you have anything constructive to add to this discussion? Last I checked, there's a perfectly good discussion for people making inane comments further up the page. - Grant (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
For folks that apparently despise the Facebook page, you sure do seem to care about it. Lager (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Cared about it. What I did today was nothing more than my deciding I no longer give a fuck, and my lighting it on fire. Nothing more, nothing less. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The insurgents tried to return to older times, to better times, just like they remembered. The big problem is that the actual people went "ahahaha fuck that" and got up and left them with the shell of a group. It turns out a FB group is made of people. And that internet fundamentalism doesn't work, but they just had to go and prove it - David Gerard (talk) 07:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Just when you think FB couldn't get more petty and boring. Since this is a 'saloon bar' I guess the right thing to do is to take it outside, maybe back to FB? Tielec01 (talk) 07:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I love how David Gerard avoids actually addressing my points and, instead, fills everything in with ad hominem attacks and gibberish and nothing more. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Just when you think FB couldn't get more petty and boring. Since this is a 'saloon bar' I guess the right thing to do is to take it outside, maybe back to FB? Tielec01 (talk) 07:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
−
- I was just going to say the same thing. I think he actually does this there is some sort of "MRA Conspiracy" happening here despite it is not born of any fact. And Tielec - we already have a back alley. Acei9 08:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- No, "MRA" is completely wrong, I said that very early on but will say it again. It's just this month's HCM. At least the actual HCM happened offsite this time - David Gerard (talk) 08:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I was just going to say the same thing. I think he actually does this there is some sort of "MRA Conspiracy" happening here despite it is not born of any fact. And Tielec - we already have a back alley. Acei9 08:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Dude, you literally named yourselves after some TK fuckery on Conservapedia. You literally tried to dissolve the people in the hope of forming a new one. There's really not much of substance to address. But you can lean back in "you're aaallll fuckwits I toooold you so." Here, have an "I'M RIGHT!" token to cuddle - David Gerard (talk) 08:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- And this is the EXACT same kind of nonsense response I would run into any time I brought up a concern about the direction the Facebook page was headed (i.e: a glorified 4-chan). Nobody addressing my concerns, nope. Just dismissal and gibberish. Thanks, David, for underscoring my point. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Excuse me, the fuck is this shit? Can you explain exactly why you feel your concerns deserved to be addressed? I mean, are you just entitled to such on your say so? This is RationalWiki, it's run by a bunch of fucking anarchists as a mobocracy, and the FB group was no difference - there's no "concerns to be addressed", there's no fucking parliamentary procedure, and there's no reason anyone has to give you the damn time of day. Your entitlement disgusts me. --Castaigne (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do you even understand what you're talking about with Gish Gallop??? Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Consider, Castaigne, what the wider aims of RW (and the RMF) are and/or should be. While RW is a mobocracy, the RMF is not. Last I checked, the Facebook group uses RW's branding, which means it's inevitably going to be associated with the RMF (note who owns the copyrights on the RW name and logo). Is this the kind of environment that best serves the interests of a charitable organization attempting to spread its mission of disputing pseudoscience and fighting authoritarianism into other forms of media? Do you think claiming "we're a mobocracy of anarchists so that justifies being dicks" is really a great way to spread awareness about our mission? - Grant (talk) 19:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do you even understand what you're talking about with Gish Gallop??? Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- At least Knight, by comparison, saw what I did and asked me if my concerns about the group justified the actions. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ironically, the fact that the dispute is being brought down to the level of "the MRAs didn't like it" just goes to indicate how broken the system was on the FB page, when you had a group of admins who would actively make any dissent to their POV a sexist attack on themselves and use it to justify excluding that person from the group. Even a discussion on religion was brought down to the level of "how dare a make atheist ask a Christian feminist to explain how she equates being a feminist with the anti-female message of her supposed religion." So, by all means, join the new group, but just make sure to toe the party line, for fear of being labelled an MRA. People who throw around labels like "sexist" and "MRA" mere;y to back up their POV are a disgrace to the cause they purport to support. But to stick you head up your arse and say it was because of the MRAs is both idiotic and disingenuous. Yeah, and using the name of a well-known RW meme - how awful! How about addressing the actual issues? PsyGremlinParla! 08:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Dude, you literally named yourselves after some TK fuckery on Conservapedia. You literally tried to dissolve the people in the hope of forming a new one. There's really not much of substance to address. But you can lean back in "you're aaallll fuckwits I toooold you so." Here, have an "I'M RIGHT!" token to cuddle - David Gerard (talk) 08:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I do concur (and am pointing out repeatedly) that if all this gendery-wendery shite is actually skeptical material, the articles have to show it. e.g. building something from the superlatively useful reference dump on Talk:Social justice. The articles need to look like old-skool skeptical material, to convince the convinceable undecided old and stuck in their ways. This is the hard bit, but it's also necessary - David Gerard (talk) 09:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- So, still ignoring the "using sexism as an excuse" then? Then again, given the biggest culprit said "oh, don't post that here" when the issue was raised in the FB admin group, why am I not surprised? Get it through your head, it had NOTHING to do with gender issues, and all about certain admins abusing their positions. PsyGremlinParla! 09:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Lets not forget Knight coming up some of the most absurd accusations - including talking about me "personally harassing and stalking" other users without a shred of evidence, telling me other users are scared of me and having to hide behind their handles lest I discover who they really are. Followed by burning the thread when I challenge her on providing some evidence to support these wild baseless claims before telling everyone else how duplicitous I am. I mean really Gerard? Burning the fucker down at least brought these issues out - all the while Magic-man and your other acolytes spend their day telling everyone how a bunch of MRA's (lead by me who was apparently kicked out of the admin group for making misogynistic comments which you know is untrue) took over the Facebook page because we were banned for misogyny. Get a grip you weird fucker - that has nothing to do with gender issues and everything to do with admins being shits. Acei9 10:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- But why, exactly, should we take your word over Knight's? What exactly have you done to be considered more trustworthy than Knight? Why should I believe you over her? --Castaigne (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't at any point called you an MRA, and have said that's wrong and silly several times. But have a RIGHT token anyway to cuddle - David Gerard (talk) 10:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yet that is apparently the general message being bandied around on the FB threads by admins and as far as I can see you have done nothing to contradict that. Steven Kavanagh (talk) 11:26, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Again, logic intercedes. Exactly what do you expect David Gerard to do in a mobocracy to contradict the FB admins? Aren't the FB admins allowed their own opinion, however wrong you think it might be? --Castaigne (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Because that might risk him being branded an MRA - that being the default position taken by the shitty admins - "if you disagree with me, I get to brand you a sexist." The fact that they even went down that route, only highlights this fact. PsyGremlinParla! 11:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- No, I've consistently said otherwise. But you guys, you go on being your right selves and revelling in it.
- I still don't understand what the fuck you thought you'd achieve, apart from making a lot of people think you're childish dickheads, unless throwing a shitfit tantrum was the actual desired end result. Did you really expect people couldn't just decamp somewhere else without you or something? Truly, this was an exercise fully deserving to be named after something TK thought of. Well done! - David Gerard (talk) 12:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- If nothing else, it's shown that being a troll is clearly more important than trying to run a group properly. Ironic really, given that you were the one who adminned the biggest troll of the lot, somebody who wasn't even that active on the group, and certainly not on the wiki. Not to mention how the FB Admin Lounge went from quiet to "OMG! Look, he's being sexist" almost overnight. So yeah, I can understand why you have to resort to bluster. A bigger person might admit their mistake, instead of doubling down. You want to use Conservapedia analogies - well, congrats, you've just become one. The FB group is now run like Conservapedia, where you'll be trolled and run out of town on the flimsiest of excuses. Because egos. Hell, somebody even got blocked for daring to ask what an MRA is. Way to run a group. PsyGremlinParla! 12:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yet that is apparently the general message being bandied around on the FB threads by admins and as far as I can see you have done nothing to contradict that. Steven Kavanagh (talk) 11:26, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Lets not forget Knight coming up some of the most absurd accusations - including talking about me "personally harassing and stalking" other users without a shred of evidence, telling me other users are scared of me and having to hide behind their handles lest I discover who they really are. Followed by burning the thread when I challenge her on providing some evidence to support these wild baseless claims before telling everyone else how duplicitous I am. I mean really Gerard? Burning the fucker down at least brought these issues out - all the while Magic-man and your other acolytes spend their day telling everyone how a bunch of MRA's (lead by me who was apparently kicked out of the admin group for making misogynistic comments which you know is untrue) took over the Facebook page because we were banned for misogyny. Get a grip you weird fucker - that has nothing to do with gender issues and everything to do with admins being shits. Acei9 10:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to apologize somewhat for my general orneriness in the wake of the coup. I just got done with finals, and the whole development pissed me off. Lager (talk) 18:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. While it's been some time since I had to take finals, I know what it's like, so I can sympathize. - Grant (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
My two cents
I think the concept that the "coup" was useless and accomplished nothing is both silly and wrong. If anything, it certainly openly exposed a lot of bad blood that was circulating in private circles for a while. Was the "coup" the right thing to do? Probably not, and Ace and RNS certainly went about things in a very undiplomatic fashion, we'll say. However, in my eyes, it exposed a side of several people that I would rather not have seen.
First, there is most certainly a group of people who have been tossing out labels that absolutely shouldn't be tossed out in this situation. No, Ace is not an MRA just because he disagrees with the way the Facebook group is run. David, I acknowledge that you're no longer one of the people making those claims, but several people still are, which is a problem. When we start reflexively labelling people with shitty names like "MRA" and "sexist" just because they do something we don't like, we're no better than the groups RW exists to debunk.
Second, it seems that no productive discussion of gender issues and/or their place on this wiki can happen without a small group of people derailing it. I mean hell, this Facebook explosion wasn't even about gender issues, and yet it managed to be twisted into that anyways. Why can we not have a civil discussion about these sorts of things? This is one area in which even people who should know better don't act appropriately. David, you're normally a voice for reason around here, but the couple times this discussion has come up around the wiki you've been the first to start piling on accusations, name-calling, and tossing out childish all-caps strawman statements about having "no gender issues in my skepticism." Is it really a surprise that this kind of behaviour isn't appropriate in anything approaching a civilized discussion? You may argue that Ace and friends aren't civil, but how about those of us who are?
Finally, there's no doubt that the way the FB group was run was a mess. You can say all you want about the internet being a mess, but as a professional in multiple fields, I checked out the RW Facebook page and decided I didn't want potential clients or colleagues seeing that I associated myself with that group. If you're going to run a Facebook group like that, then close it to the public and make it invitation only. Otherwise, at least ensure that the admins and group members show a modicum of civility. If you want to say that doesn't happen on RW, then you know what? Maybe that's a problem we need to fix too.
I'm sure I'm either going to be bitched at or ignored for typing all of this, but I figured that as someone who didn't partake in either side of this escapade, I would make my thoughts known. - Grant (talk) 17:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- GRANT IS AN MRA SYMPATHIZER!!! BURN THE WITCH! BURN THE WITCH! |₹Λ¥$€₦₦
Good job guys. You were so busy karate fighting that you let Jesus escape. 17:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm basically in agreement with Grant. So is it too late to fix the FB group or is it going to be a schism, or is the old group getting shut down and replaced with a new one? I'm not sure I want to join a group if the people in charge call everyone who disagrees with them an MRA or whatever. If I can get some assurances that that's not the way it's going to work I'll reconsider. DickTurpis (talk) 17:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The claim is made-up; they're repeating it in the hope it will be believed. The old group is a shell, the new group is active. I suggest you come by and have a look. If you hate it, fine - David Gerard (talk) 18:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Did you type that blatant lie with a straight face? PsyGremlinParla! 18:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I can't tell if that statement is meant in response to something specific or the idea that the MRA label is dropped on everyone. However, even a cursory look at the old Facebook page reinforces the points I mentioned above. - Grant (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The claim is made-up; they're repeating it in the hope it will be believed. The old group is a shell, the new group is active. I suggest you come by and have a look. If you hate it, fine - David Gerard (talk) 18:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm basically in agreement with Grant. So is it too late to fix the FB group or is it going to be a schism, or is the old group getting shut down and replaced with a new one? I'm not sure I want to join a group if the people in charge call everyone who disagrees with them an MRA or whatever. If I can get some assurances that that's not the way it's going to work I'll reconsider. DickTurpis (talk) 17:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- What are you talking about, Grant? Nobody has EVER thrown around MRA accusations! Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 18:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed. I think perhaps there's some misconception that I came up with these ideas recently. However, I checked out the RW Facebook group last fall and decided I wouldn't want to be associated with it. If the new group is supposedly cleaner and well-moderated, then that's a great thing, but it doesn't justify brushing off what happened in the previous group. - Grant (talk) 18:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Some people have indeed scorned everyone who disagrees as a Men's Rights Activist. But that's not the whole story or even a partially fair representation of most people's attitude. I can tell that even you know this, because you're indulging in sarcastic overstatement.--
talk
18:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The fact remains that the biggest instigators of the MRA excuse were admins, who used it as a pretext to abuse their position and drive people away from the group. And now another admin says that never happened. Yeah, way to boost confidence in how the new group will be run. PsyGremlinParla! 18:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Then deal with the admins at facebook. They are (save a handful) not really even represented here. I find it perplexing that this wiki feels such a tie to the facebook group, even admitting it shares our name, since it's largely got little to do with the wiki here, is way more meme driving/mob driven/chatty/troll filled (and that's saying something, to be MORE than this place) than the wiki is. And has no real accountability as such. Like most of the facebook groups (if you've been a member of any of them) they are...I don't even know how to describe them, a place to bitch and whine about whatever particular group in teh world is pissing you off that day - without having to own anything you say or do about it. Here, since most people posting are or have been editors, there is a sense of ownership, and that changes how people act. at least from my perspective. One tin soldier (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- This is a fine thought in principle, but RW should be interested in expanding its reach. The thing about a FB group using RW's name is that whether or not it's actually representative of the editorship, it will be taken that way by people who aren't already familiar with how things work. Any body, group, or institution carrying RW's name should be representative of RW's aims, goals, and mission. This is the first problem. The second problem is that there's some overlap between the FB group and RW, and this has led to issues when attempting to bring up discussions about this wiki's coverage of gender issues. - Grant (talk) 18:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I will add that you're right, FB is well known for being a bitchy scum-fest. However, FB groups have actual admins, and unlike on RW, these admins actually have the power (and responsibility) to moderate and control disruptive discussion. The fact that at least some of the admins are/were editors here on RW, including one member of the Board of Trustees, suggests that a cog has fallen out of the works somewhere along the line. - Grant (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Then deal with the admins at facebook. They are (save a handful) not really even represented here. I find it perplexing that this wiki feels such a tie to the facebook group, even admitting it shares our name, since it's largely got little to do with the wiki here, is way more meme driving/mob driven/chatty/troll filled (and that's saying something, to be MORE than this place) than the wiki is. And has no real accountability as such. Like most of the facebook groups (if you've been a member of any of them) they are...I don't even know how to describe them, a place to bitch and whine about whatever particular group in teh world is pissing you off that day - without having to own anything you say or do about it. Here, since most people posting are or have been editors, there is a sense of ownership, and that changes how people act. at least from my perspective. One tin soldier (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The fact remains that the biggest instigators of the MRA excuse were admins, who used it as a pretext to abuse their position and drive people away from the group. And now another admin says that never happened. Yeah, way to boost confidence in how the new group will be run. PsyGremlinParla! 18:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- (EC) Probably not, but when vitriol is allowed to fester, it creates a real problem. The point you made in the section below supports that idea fairly well. Some of the discussions and threads on that FB group were downright nasty, and these were allowed to proceed. When the gender issues discussion briefly visited RW a few times, the same kind of vitriol surfaced. This is a real problem worthy of discussion, and avoiding that is a problem. Can both sides of this please stop throwing strawmen up? Maybe that would be helpful. - Grant (talk) 18:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- What are you talking about, Grant? Nobody has EVER thrown around MRA accusations! Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 18:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Clarification of my position, and a comment about my poor approach to this
David brought up a good point that I neglected to consider when I wrote the above, in that I'm approaching this with the mentality that the FB group is a separate entity that needs to be "dealt with" in some fashion. I apologize unreservedly for that, and that's certainly not my intention. I believe very strongly in the aims of the RMF (and spreading the RMF's reach through various media). What I'm looking (and hoping) for is an open dialogue (open to the entire RW community, including the Facebook group) on the rifts and issues this experience has exposed, and how best to go about generating growth from that. I also realize that I sound like a "gather round in a circle and sing inspirational songs" crazy man, but I really do believe that this is both possible and useful. - Grant (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Growing Pains
Reading Slate Star Codex the other day, something struck me as particularly applicable to RW - both the wiki and the FB. I recommend reading the whole post, but here's the conclusion, roughly:
[S]omeone who is a jerk to men will, by and large, also be a jerk to women. Someone who is a jerk to men’s rights activists will, by and large, also be a jerk to feminists. They may not do so immediately, if it doesn’t serve their self-interest to do so. But in private, or as soon as the chance comes up, jerkitude will out. If you defend them as long as they’re only being jerks to outsiders, then a few months later, when – shock! horror! – you realize they’re being jerks to insiders, you end up having to retreat and mumble something about how you were “kinda wary about him” all along.
But more importantly if you elevate jerkishness into a principle, if you try to undermine the rules that keep niceness, community, and civilization going, the defenses against social cancer – then your movement will fracture, it will be hugely embarrassing, the atmosphere will become toxic, unpopular people will be thrown to the mob, everyone but the thickest-skinned will bow out, the people you need to convince will view you with a mixture of terror and loathing, and you’ll spend so much time dealing with internal conflicts that you’ll never get [things done].
For a long time, we were small enough that single individuals could - whenever they chose - change things up. A group of people came together around a rough dislike of fundamentalist thinking in all of its aspects, embracing not only a passion for the "truth" as they saw it, but also a rough-and-ready willingness to get in on the fight. And in the process of commiserating and laughing and associating, a community was born. They were raucous and generally liberal and filled with joy and contempt and anger and sarcasm and passion. It got pretty awesome as it grew, and I watched RW closely during these earliest days (longtime folks here may remember when I was Tom Moore on Conservapedia, engaged in endless debate). And RW was so small that when Human decided to make a big change or when Nx messed around with the interface or someone just decided to delete a whole batch of articles on their own whim, that it was okay. There were very few rules, because so much of the group was rebellious and vociferous and clung to the reverse of CP's authoritarian mode - "let the mob sort it out," was the cry.
It was anarchy restricted by social norms (shunning, peer pressure, etc.), and it worked surprisingly well. In addition to solving most problems in a timely and efficient manner, it solved them in a way that satisfied a majority of people. Unlike real anarchy, the ultimate punishment was not very "ultimate" - vigilantism led to banning, not death. Along the way, we picked up a distinctive flavor as a community. Much of it was pretty typical for Internet atheism/liberal/science-type groups - predominantly Caucasian, educated, and so on. But while we were mostly male, we had an unusually high percentage of female users, relatively speaking. And that is pretty great, too. A lot of this may have been due to Toast's prominence for so long (Toast, we still miss you).
Unfortunately, as Yvain points out in that post, a community that generally agrees that it's okay for people to unilaterally mess things up or change them, whenever they feel it's necessary, is unlikely to be able to build much. It's not that we're iconoclasts, which is fine - it's that so many of us are used to cutting the Gordian knot whenever we think it's necessary. But Alexander was a king and general and emperor, and you can't build a kingdom out of kings.
Some people got impatient that their ideas were being ignored, and so they decided to just smash everything. It was probably briefly satisfying. There is an attraction there, probably experienced by many of us longtime netizens - it is the pleasure of imposing your will. You won't be reasonable (however I may define that)? Fine, then I'll ban you and everyone. I just need to trick you for a little bit, which is a lot easier than changing your mind. Then BAM fuck you and hahah watch everyone scurry!
But it's just not going to work forever. I have long had hopes that the mobocracy-as-code-word-for-anarchy/vigilantism would morph into mobocracy-as-code-word-for-democracy. And I still think that will happen. It's already on its way, in fact - look how quickly people started the new FB group, and without much anger (just general contempt). I'll admit that I've been less active lately (I just bought a house and started a serious career). But I still follow everything, and I can see that our attitude has shifted over the years.
These are growing pains. Folks imposing their will on others and smashing things up (not seizing power, oh no that would be wrong), only to realize that that doesn't fly anymore. Treat it with due contempt, roll your eyes at the attempts at flippancy, and get back to building.
It's hard to untangle knots. How to deal with gender politics, where there are good arguments on both sides (if you don't think so, you need to read more), is a knotty problem. How to change how a group is managed is another. Thick, lumpy, unpleasant masses of contorted interests that take a lot of labor (or the little labors of hundreds, as in a wiki). But it's not okay to just give up and cut every knot, because reason is too hard.
So, yeah.
It may be that I'm wrong, and it's very certain that the whole kerfuffle is silly. But I think things are changing, and that this is the ultimate cause (proximate concerns about modding behavior seem very very important, but then your personal problem always seems like the big exception; c.f. intentional fallacy). Things will keep getting better. Despair not.--
talk
18:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I think your memory is rather selective, especially here: "RW was so small that when Human decided to make a big change or when Nx messed around with the interface or someone just decided to delete a whole batch of articles on their own whim, that it was okay". There was a huge fallout over the Saloon Bar Putsch of 2011, with grudges & discontent lingering a long time afterwards, and there have been various other overblown HCMs over the years, as well as long interpersonal conflicts between various prominent users, going right back to the early days of the site. As a totally disinterested party to this Facebook thing, what I'm seeing here doesn't look much different. The key players and lines of conflict may have changed, but it's mostly just another RationalWiki dick-swinging contest that will be mostly forgotten in a few months' time, give or take the odd new or rekindled grievance, until the next big flare-up. The conflicts over how the community should be managed & where the limits of the mission lie are also perennial. A lot of energy has been wasted in the past, and no doubt will be again, in trying to resolve these issues with very little progress. Such is the nature of a mobocracy. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- But your marshaled evidence just supports my point. Human tried to change things single-handedly, as he had been used to doing, and things had changed enough and matured that everyone got really pissed off and he dropped even further off the radar. And think how long it's been since interpersonal conflicts really consumed the wiki. Think about how mild HCMs have gotten, as we have institutionalized things and become more mature.
- I am 100% positive that my recollection of RW's past is half-fabricated by my own beliefs and the narrative I have constructed - that's the nature of bias and memory. It wasn't a smooth line of progression, it's been stuttering starts and stops and interminable squabbles about people like MC or Brx. And I'm a pretty optimistic fellow who is immensely fond of RW, so my affection will further color my perspective and incline me to believe certain ways. But it's hard to look back at five years ago or even longer and not see a community that has matured, I think, and become less tolerant of that dick-swinging. Let 'em swing - we keep getting better :) --
talk
02:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I see people on this page accusing each other of being Schlafly & TK. Not convinced the community has matured all that much. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 12:33, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I see people on this page accusing each other of being Schlafly & TK. Not convinced the community has matured all that much. Wéáśéĺóíď
- Very Serious People imitation achieved, well done. Realistically: The group (the new one) is marked "not official", fwiw. (I was going to mark the old one, and Ace banned me literally at that moment. Well done!) Actively recruiting actual content editors to the wiki as hard as possible. Thinking in missional terms. For the gender shit to be any good, the articles have to be good, and - and this is important - the people in question are actually working toward that.
- Your "neutrality" comes across as false balance, but I would say that. The basic problem with the FB group is the same as the wiki: it isn't run by anyone. The other problem is that you appear to be working up to a proposal to make it conform or kill it, aaaand ... that's literally what was just tried: the Party tried to dissolve the People so that a new People could be formed, and the People told them to fuck off and self-organised a new group with several hundred members in literally an hour. So maybe you might have to ... convince people. Do you think you could convince people, instead of othering them? - David Gerard (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I've made no attempt to be neutral, and I've made it clear that I agree with various things brought up by both sides, as I say above in the previous section. The fact that you jump to tossing offensive accusations at me is more than a bit disconcerting. Thank you for jumping to an offensive conclusion about me without bothering to engage me on the opinions and thoughts I've expressed.
- I will add that the new group being marked as "unofficial" doesn't mean much realistically, as I'm sure you also know. You also seem to be painting me with the brush that I would rather not see gender issues expressed on the wiki, which is in stark contrast to my actual views and poorly represents my views on the matter, which is that an open discussion about these sorts of things is a good idea.
- I have no interest in working up to a proposal to make the FB group conform to RW. In fact, I think the FB group has a lot of potential to avoid a lot of the issues that make RW occasionally dysfunctional (including, among other things, the mobocracy approach to civility). Once again, however, you seem to be suggesting that my interest in open discourse is somehow a bad thing. As for "othering" people, I wonder how you could possibly come to that conclusion. This is a discussion about Facebook. If you want to hear my broad views about things I think are broken with RW, then fine, and that will probably involve laying into people like Ace and Nutty as well. Do I think the coup was a good idea or the right way to get this all done? Hell no. But it happened, and it offers us an opportunity to open up discourse on this. If your only response to my thoughts is to make baseless accusations about me, then I honestly don't know what you expect me to do. Is there some method of starting a conversation that wouldn't give you cause to label me in some way? - Grant (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
From the lightning rod...
First off Gerard, I didn't ban you - I actually didn't ban many people at all in fact. But I took the responsibility and said from the beginning I would take responsibility - and your comment about othering? Are you really that wound up in yourself you can see the extreme hypocrisy of that comment? This whole issue was kick-started by the admin group othering people as MRA's who dared question them or their narrative in such a blanket fashion that one senior admin actually suggested to me that their argument might have more weight with me if it came from a man because disagreement (which is an offensive thing to lay on someone in its own rtight). But lets look at this with a wider lens - I left the admin group because I felt the admin behaviour was unnecessarily rude, condescending and dishonest. When I questioned this I was abused, accused of being a sexist myself and eventually worn down to the point I gave and left. It was then I approached 2 other people who had left for the same reasons and we stared a discussion. This was helped on by several other long-term and well respected RW users (I'll let them identify themselves). Gerard is being extremely disingenuous, this wasn't a single issue but a long-term cause of ruction which had been developing for months. The decision to rumble the page had no clear goal, no serious idea about actually staging a real coup and I made it pretty clear that I would probably step away once if was done and I nearly even pulled out of the whole thing.
But what has been a achieved it an exposure of the systemic issues that caused this in the first place - the immediate reaction was Disgruntled MRA's did it! and The were banned for making misogynistic comments and now want to take over so no more gender discussion take place. None of that is true but given the fact that was the first loudly proclaimed, and often viciously stated, reason for it just goes to show what a real problem it had become. The fact a community would immediately decide it was the fault of Mens Rights Activist's shows what a dysfunctional attitude prevails despite the facvt there was no evidence this was the case anyway. Do see what happened here? The Facebook group had become so polluted with this idea that the epithet MRA was just thrown around willy-nilly to any disagreement. And still it goes on, TokenSkeptic continues to spout the nonsense that I was banned because I made misogynistic comments and all the "Well I never said that" from you Gerard doesn't change that that fact. It is also very telling that several people key to this and who continue to spout this incorrect narrative and were partly the reason for this haven't shown up here to back themselves despite being active users. Knightof TL;DR has told many a whopper about me over the last 24 hours, none of which are true in any sense, and she continues to do so and refuses to supply any evidence of these wild claims.
Don't come hear talking about othering David. It was that very othering of you and your admins which caused this whole fucking shitstorm in the first place. Acei9 21:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that people's reactions immediately afterwards can be held to prove anything, except perhaps that they are capable of jumping to reasonable conclusions (i.e. they had been in a long conflict with MRA folks in the space, so when they're booted and the space is smashed, it's not farfetched that those same people of conflict (or their allies) did it; a wrong conclusion but hardly strange). If I get into long, vicious arguments with a neighbor and my house gets egged, I might assume they did it - I could well be wrong and such an assumption may not be reasonable, but I'm not dumb to make that assumption, and it's not proof I'm prejudiced against that neighbor.
- Also, don't forget that you just fucked up something that they cared about and worked on, so they're also going to be predisposed to seeing you and describing you in the worst light possible.--
talk
01:48, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Wow, MRA's did it is a reasonable conclusion? Why would that be a reasonable conclusion? I'm sure if your house were egged you wouldn't think they did it because they were an MRA. Analogy fail. Try again, dad. Acei9 02:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Read it again then - you might get it eventually. Tielec01 (talk) 02:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed, I believe that AD meant "reasonable" in the sense that it's understandable why those conclusions were reached, even if it wasn't necessarily correct. - Grant (talk) 03:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- No, you should read what Ace has written all over this page. --Someon (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Read it again then - you might get it eventually. Tielec01 (talk) 02:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Wow, MRA's did it is a reasonable conclusion? Why would that be a reasonable conclusion? I'm sure if your house were egged you wouldn't think they did it because they were an MRA. Analogy fail. Try again, dad. Acei9 02:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
The MRA thing isn't just "people's reactions immediately afterwards": it's a POV that's still being perpetuated. Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
That Would Be Telling
I start asking the hard questions and Reckless Noise Sympathy issues a day's block. Rather telling, that. Well, I'm convinced. I personally have witnessed Ace being misogynistic on the FB group. My real name is Andrew Stallings. (Feel free to come at me, Ace. I invite stalkers. It's part of not fearing humanity.) This whole Blunt Knives bullshit? Cowardice of the highest order. --Castaigne (talk) 19:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Asking the hard questions? No, there are people here trying to see this work to push things forward and accomplish something useful. You're doing nothing but pushing more vitriol into the conversation. Think about what the aims of RW's parent organization are and how best to approach those. If you have something meaningful to contribute to the discussion, there are ways to do so without being a twat about it. - Grant (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The aims of RationalWiki are fully contained in the 4 points in the "About RationalWiki" on the front page. There is no best way to approach those. And are you seriously attempting to use a tone argument on me? Christ, that's lame. --Castaigne (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Shut up, we don't need you if all your going to do is pick more fights than there already are.--Miekal 20:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The aims of the RMF are more broad and are listed elsewhere. In case you haven't noticed, the RMF owns RW as well. If RW is interested in expanding beyond what it is now, considering these broader goals is important. No, I'm not trying to use a tone argument on you. Instead, I'm trying to tell you that I find your contributions to this discussion to be unhelpful, and I'm explaining why I think that. Take from it what you wish. - Grant (talk) 20:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- See above. You're tone trolling and othering; this is unlikely to convince the people you're talking about (not to) that you're arguing in good faith, and you might be successful if you actually get them onside - David Gerard (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Last I checked, I posted a nice long message above about what I thought the issues were in the interests of sparking a discussion about this. I have no idea how you expect me to get a group of people on-side when I say "here are where I think the issues are", and the response is "you're tone trolling; bugger off." Am I interested in having a conversation with someone who's determined to act like an ass? Not really, no, and if Castaigne would like to respond to the points I made in the previous section, he's welcome to do so. I'm not going to respond if he's going to be disrespectful towards me, however, because I don't engage with people who can't or won't treat me with respect. - Grant (talk) 21:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- See above. You're tone trolling and othering; this is unlikely to convince the people you're talking about (not to) that you're arguing in good faith, and you might be successful if you actually get them onside - David Gerard (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Who says that RW is interested in expanding beyond what it is now? And what authority has put forth these "broader goals" in stone tablets? I say that RW has no need to be more than what it is. And I plan to keep it that way. Also, why should I give a damn about whether you think my contributions are helpful or not? That's pretty fucking presumptuous. I don't give a shit about your contributions, helpful or unhelpful, and I don't expect you to care about mine.
- Also, you have done nothing to earn respectful commentary for me, or even to earn my respect at all. Much like the "My Seed Is Liquid Fucking Gold" MRA, my respect is given to the few who have earned it. What makes you worthy of respect? The fact that you have an ego? I sure as shit don't require you to respect me - and remember, respect is obedience. --Castaigne (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's nice. Thankfully, I don't much care about your respect or your contributions either, so I will be content to go on my way without interacting with you again. What right do I have to say I think your contributions are unhelpful? Simple. I have a right to express my opinion the same way you do. You're welcome to disagree with me, and you clearly do. Good for you.
- As for expanding RW, there are editors who are interested in such, myself included. Those of us who are will continue to move forward with that, and the mobocracy will decide on its merits.
- Respect is not obedience, since respect does not require that you yield any of your rights or opinions in any way. If you think my definition of "respect" is that I demand you not argue with me or something of the like, you're mistaken. That said, you've made it clear you're not willing to participate in respectful discussion with me, so I won't engage you on this subject any longer. - Grant (talk) 21:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- . I personally have witnessed Ace being misogynistic on the FB group... Bullshit, please substantiate this Acei9 21:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I quote from my response to you on my Talk Page: Oh my dear Ace, my substantiations and evidence will be forthcoming. It may take time, because I am very busy at work right now, but you are very, very, VERY much on my mind. Hopefully my weekend of the 4th will be free enough to deal with you. And I will be proved correct. --Castaigne (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- And this (Feel free to come at me, Ace. I invite stalkers. It's part of not fearing humanity.) I have never stalked anyone but this the type of shit I have been talking about above - which came from KnightTLDR - the bullshit about people which is flowing freely among the FB group. I invite Castaigne to substantiate the claim I have been misogynistic or have stalked anyone. Acei9 21:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- . I personally have witnessed Ace being misogynistic on the FB group... Bullshit, please substantiate this Acei9 21:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The aims of the RMF are more broad and are listed elsewhere. In case you haven't noticed, the RMF owns RW as well. If RW is interested in expanding beyond what it is now, considering these broader goals is important. No, I'm not trying to use a tone argument on you. Instead, I'm trying to tell you that I find your contributions to this discussion to be unhelpful, and I'm explaining why I think that. Take from it what you wish. - Grant (talk) 20:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Shut up, we don't need you if all your going to do is pick more fights than there already are.--Miekal 20:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- The aims of RationalWiki are fully contained in the 4 points in the "About RationalWiki" on the front page. There is no best way to approach those. And are you seriously attempting to use a tone argument on me? Christ, that's lame. --Castaigne (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Err... RMF "owning" RW is a fairly overly strong statement. RMF provides server access and software for users to create content that is released under CC-by-SA 3.0. Carry on. Sterile (talk) 00:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, it would have been more correct for me to say that the RMF owns the copyright to the name and logo, owns the domain name, and provides the server space. The content on the wiki is not owned by the RMF, as you say. - Grant (talk) 01:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- That said, the RMF website also states that the RMF "owns the RationalWiki.org website," and if that was meaning to specify the domain name and server space, you may wish to clarify that. - Grant (talk) 01:59, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- On the subject of the RMF, I think the board as a whole should have a good, hard look at why one of the board members has been repeatedly caught in a lie, saying that comments aren't being made about people being called MRAs, or that claims aren't being made that Ace is stalking people. Well, on this page alone, those claims have been shown to be true - let alone the trolls now appearing to add these lies to things like our MRA article. One has to ask why a member of the RMF feels the need to lie so blatantly? PsyGremlinParla! 08:06, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- As a former member of the RMF, I think the reason is because the Foundation prefers to insulate itself from the drama that goes on on its websites. I am not an official representative of the Foundation, but from when I was on the Board, they tended to think it was bad form to interject into community drama. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- On the subject of the RMF, I think the board as a whole should have a good, hard look at why one of the board members has been repeatedly caught in a lie, saying that comments aren't being made about people being called MRAs, or that claims aren't being made that Ace is stalking people. Well, on this page alone, those claims have been shown to be true - let alone the trolls now appearing to add these lies to things like our MRA article. One has to ask why a member of the RMF feels the need to lie so blatantly? PsyGremlinParla! 08:06, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Take a step back and a long deep breath
Hey guys. Really. Is it really that important? Look at all the energy expended over a silly piece of HCM. I guess we were about due one, it's been a while and the coop is all but mothballed but, does it really matter. OMG! Someone is wrong on the internet. Oh dear.
Or chill for a day and then say fuck it. Who cares. Even if so and so did say such and such I'm big enough to rise above it.
Unless, of course, you're not. Placeholder (talk) 22:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, I think. While some tempers should probably cool down in this discussion, I think some good discourse could (and should) come of it. - Grant (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- You're both right! And this is one of those cases where such a statement is not meaningless conciliation, but actually correct. Placeholder is right that this is ultimately a discussion on a website prone to Intense Discussions about the way we moderate a special section of the Facebook website, which is (in the grand scheme of things) much less important than a single hour of the suffering of a little girl slowly starving to death in northern Sudan because she's ridden with parasites. C.f. The Life You Can Save. So no matter whether or not other people agree with you, you can completely triumph in every way, moral and intellectual and spiritual (if that last one's your gig) by donating $100 to the Schistosomiasis Control Initiative. Everything about this discussion is instantly trivial in perspective.
- But also, we do like to chat and we do make the world a bit better here, by having a fun community (and also a Facebook page) where we help overturn some nonsense and stay abreast of the world's weirdness, and we can always engage in those practices a bit better by having some better sense.
- So we're all winners! --
talk
02:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, don't worry. I'm taking a step back and have finally decided that my retirement from the Facebook RW page actually means just that. The shit that went down, well, was more like a retirement party on my way out rather than a coup to topple a regime. As such, I've decided to refocus my efforts on improving this here Wiki, shying away from caring about the banter of the hopeless/useless Facebook group(s), and caring less and less about this particular page. Let the memesters have Facebook, I will make this site shine like pearl. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
I am confused and need to ask a question
I thought the official story was that a group of MRAs became admins of the RationalWiki Facebook group, de-adminned the ones who actually cared about gender issues, and took over the page for some time until the original administrator of the page kicked them out. Is this not the correct narrative, as Sophie (the page's admin) seems to have said? Also (on an unrelated note), how do I create a list on this format, since I am onlt familiar with Microsoft Word? I hate MRAs (talk) 08:42, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Nope - that is the lie that the people on the FB group continue to spread. MRAs and gender issues never entered into the debate. The sole purpose of the exercise was to remove a group of admins, who were (and still are) trashing the site, by throwing memes around liek the place is 4chan, and using terms like "MRA" and "sexist" as snarl words against people with whom they had a disagreement - thereby, ironically, shitting on the feminist movement they claim to support. It was never about gender issues, outside of their own heads, they're now using it as an excuse to condone their own actions.
- Ironically, David Gerard has said that it's a lie to say that the official story is that it's about MRAs, and yet here you are. So, I wonder who exactly is lying? PsyGremlinParla! 10:05, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody ever accused us of being MRAs. Nobody!!! Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 10:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- You should probably read what you have a picture of, there.--
talk
12:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- You should probably read what you have a picture of, there.--
- What a glorious fucking mess. I'm going to assume everyone is an asshole, and deserves to be banned. --Revolverman (talk) 11:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody ever accused us of being MRAs. Nobody!!! Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 10:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's also important to note that Ace's accon arXiv.usations against Olivia are lies and bullshit, but he's stating them over and over as if this will make them true Weird that my accusations seem to be supported by the behaviour encountered by others. But hey, there is nothing bullshit about those who claim that I was banned for misogynist comments and attempted to take over the RW page in order to squash gender discussions. Yeah that shit is solid truth. Do actually believe yourself David? Or does writing it make is true. Acei9 08:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not to mention I have said nothing untrue about Olivia and no-one from the group, apart from you, has risen to defend themselves despite having active accounts here - rather they are spending their time propagating (or at least giving implicit support to) the idea that this was the work of disgruntled MRA's. Weird. Can Olivia not back herself? How about Kinght? She was more than happy to accuse of many a crime before burning a thread and pretending it never happened but she won't come here where she can't just make an accusation and burn the evidence to defend her claims. I'm here in an open forum to defend and explain myself, where I can't hide and can only take responsibility. Where's everyone else, bud? Seems weird that me, a liar, is here but those who are honest haven't shown up. Acei9 08:13, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Weirder still you are still propagating this myth that it was some MRA's wanting to curtail gender discussion on the RW page. Ahh David, your dishonesty is so palatable I can taste it. Pretty shitty for a board member. Acei9 09:09, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ace ... I've seen the discussion. - David Gerard (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- "rather they are spending their time propagating (or at least giving implicit support to) the idea that this was the work of disgruntled MRA's." I have not done that. And there is nothing more to talk about. ·FemiliskSJ 12:09, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting how Ace takes something a regular non mod user said in the confusion and attributes it to Femilisk, almost like hes willfully trying to manipulate the situation. --Laurelai (talk) 12:17, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Laurelai: "group consensus cant always be trusted when the group is full of sexists." Yeah, funny that. But nobody ever said that it was because MRAs were behind it. No, not at all. Good to see the Femilisk here to perpetuate the lie. PsyGremlinParla! 12:22, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting how Ace takes something a regular non mod user said in the confusion and attributes it to Femilisk, almost like hes willfully trying to manipulate the situation. --Laurelai (talk) 12:17, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- "rather they are spending their time propagating (or at least giving implicit support to) the idea that this was the work of disgruntled MRA's." I have not done that. And there is nothing more to talk about. ·FemiliskSJ 12:09, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ace ... I've seen the discussion. - David Gerard (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Weirder still you are still propagating this myth that it was some MRA's wanting to curtail gender discussion on the RW page. Ahh David, your dishonesty is so palatable I can taste it. Pretty shitty for a board member. Acei9 09:09, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not to mention I have said nothing untrue about Olivia and no-one from the group, apart from you, has risen to defend themselves despite having active accounts here - rather they are spending their time propagating (or at least giving implicit support to) the idea that this was the work of disgruntled MRA's. Weird. Can Olivia not back herself? How about Kinght? She was more than happy to accuse of many a crime before burning a thread and pretending it never happened but she won't come here where she can't just make an accusation and burn the evidence to defend her claims. I'm here in an open forum to defend and explain myself, where I can't hide and can only take responsibility. Where's everyone else, bud? Seems weird that me, a liar, is here but those who are honest haven't shown up. Acei9 08:13, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's also important to note that Ace's accon arXiv.usations against Olivia are lies and bullshit, but he's stating them over and over as if this will make them true Weird that my accusations seem to be supported by the behaviour encountered by others. But hey, there is nothing bullshit about those who claim that I was banned for misogynist comments and attempted to take over the RW page in order to squash gender discussions. Yeah that shit is solid truth. Do actually believe yourself David? Or does writing it make is true. Acei9 08:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Assume that all Ace's claim of uninvolvement, lack of action, and not trying to get others to start fights for him is a deliberate lie. I have the messages - David Gerard (talk) 12:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Psygremlin, you know what's more funny how this whole thread was at 2am onwards for me. I was asleep. I dare you to find a post of mine that backs up how I'm the one spreading lies. I'm not talking about what others said, people are claiming I did something, I am here to say I didn't, feel free to browse FB to your heart's content: https://www.facebook.com/groups/114421575256439/permalink/776206325744624/ ·FemiliskSJ 12:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) At the moment you are the last person to be accusing people of lying. And where has Ace ever said he was uninvolved? If you're that sure of your position, publish the messages. Go on. Or is this just more lies from you. In fact, publish the messages to back up your claim, or stand down from the Board, because why should we have somebody so prepared to lie representing us on the Board? PsyGremlinParla! 12:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Dude. I have the screen shots here. You're in them, so you have access to the same material - David Gerard (talk) 12:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- PsyGremlin calling someone a sexist is not the same as calling them an MRA so please stop manipulating. Sexism is a real issue on the wiki and the facebook group and the rest of the world. Being a sexist doesn't make you literally hitler, in fact most people are sexist, it just means one has some areas of improvement. So if a woman calls you a sexist you might take the chance to do some self examination and work on that. Since women have more experience on the receiving end of sexism than men. Kinda makes us subject matter experts and dismissing experts because of ones feelings isn't very logical. :) --Laurelai (talk) 12:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given how many posts, including Knight's slander of Ace have mysteriously vanished, I would say it's hard to prove. However, nothing has been done to counter that expectation, as can been seen from posts here, and as I already know what you post in the admin group, you don't get to play innocent here. The fact remains that you were the single biggest cause of the attempted coup, do to your behaviour, and being the first to call "SEXIST!" (unless, ironically it was one of your cronies making sexist comments, then it was "oh, please don't post that here.") it's strange how the immediate call was MRAs! If it sounds like a troll, and looks like a troll, then it must be a troll. PsyGremlinParla! 12:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Assume that all Ace's claim of uninvolvement, lack of action, and not trying to get others to start fights for him is a deliberate lie. I have the messages - David Gerard (talk) 12:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- "sexist is not the same as calling them an MRA" - no, of course not. People are just fine with being called sexist. PsyGremlinParla! 12:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- So you admit you have no proof. Im calling hitchens razor. I dismiss your claims because you produce no evidence. Good day sir. --Laurelai (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given that you've ignored the evidence on this page, and from your own quote posted here, it's clear you are doing nothing to correct the perception over on FB, why don't you fuck off back you your cabal of liars and go back to trolling the FB group? Because you really aren't helping. PsyGremlinParla! 12:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- "The fact remains that you were the single biggest cause of the attempted coup, do to your behaviour, and being the first to call "SEXIST!"" Of course why didn't I think of blaming the gender people for what a group of unrelated people did to vandalise the group! ·FemiliskSJ 12:48, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Here's to content contributions! - David Gerard (talk) 12:48, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do we really want content from a cabal of liars? /sarcasm ·FemiliskSJ 12:50, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Got to put the trans in her place, cant have her thinking her words are equal to a mans /sarcasm--Laurelai (talk) 12:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- And BOOM! It's magically all about gender again. Thank you for proving our point, ladies. PsyGremlinParla! 14:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Lol, Ace hates me because I once told him to step off certain pages he's not an expert about and to stop acting like a fool as a cowardly defense tactic to avoid criticism and consequences for his actions, he hates it when people jeopardize the memetic sex god ego worship he got from 2008-2011. I had a fight with him on Gabe's page where I asked gabe what was going on and I mentioned Ace as being part of the coup, and he then went on to blatantly deny that Gabe promoted his actions or that people were angry at him-- both things that were exceedingly true on the facebook and here. I should have screencapped it. He probably went off on this fit making up shit I said and being a lying prick because I didn't stand for his bullshit and deleted the useless thread on gabe's page once he made it allll about him and the meany mean things I said and his sad baby feeling and not what the fuck was up with Gabe's (and others) decision to basically try and go full schafly on a social group because they didn't understand that women see sexism that effects them where dudes may not. He became an obstructionist ego monster and demanded proof that people were criticizing him (which he had on the facebook and on the wiki) and accused me of lying about things he was probably dealing with in another window because I didn't want to compromise the identities of people speaking against him because he has a track record of harassing people who threaten his fame. You know, like me every other time I show my face. And Olivia, whom he seems to have a perverse vendetta against. And countless others over the years. Don't trust a single thing Ace says. He'd make black white if someone implied he was anything less than honest, good, or blameless. ±
KnightOfTL;DRwalls of text while-u-wait 13:06, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I wish that, what I find out, got you to nuke that post hadn't happened. I was actually hoping to a civil conversation about what went down, which is what your post to me entailed you were up for and what I, myself, had been up for. But by the time I got back to it, it was gone. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Seriously Knight, seriously now. I have asked you multipletimes to back up you accusations and each and every time you have failed to do so.
- Ace hates me because I once told him to step off certain pages he's not an expert about and to stop acting like a fool as a cowardly defense tactic to avoid criticism and consequences for his actions, he hates it when people jeopardize the memetic sex god ego worship he got from 2008-2011. Thoroughly incorrect - you didn't just tell me to "step off'. You were down-right rude for no apparent reason.
- I had a fight with him on Gabe's page... He probably went off on this fit making up shit I said and being a lying prick because I didn't stand for his bullshit and deleted the useless thread on gabe's page once he made it allll about him You fucking accused me personally harassing and stalking people and causing people to have to hide their identities for fear I would "find out about them" before I had even entered the conversation. I didn't "make it all about me" you lying shill - you fucking accused me of shit that never happened so I asked you, several times, to substantiate it. Did you? No - you went fucking retarded, accused me of several other weird crimes and burnt the fucking thread.
- ...accused me of lying about things he was probably dealing with in another window because I didn't want to compromise the identities of people speaking against him because he has a track record of harassing people who threaten his fame. And there is this accusation again - substantiate this or shut the fuck up. You can't burn this thread.
- And Olivia, whom he seems to have a perverse vendetta against. The only time I have had any interaction with Olivia was the one thread in the admin lounge which caused me to leave the admin group. That is it. I have never had any other interaction with her. I know who she is here and have never posted on her page nor responded to any comment of hers. Haven't messaged her on facebook (apart from when she sent a friend request which I denied because I had no idea who she was. More shit from you. Knight - put up or fuck oof you weird mental liar. Acei9 09:35, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- I wish that, what I find out, got you to nuke that post hadn't happened. I was actually hoping to a civil conversation about what went down, which is what your post to me entailed you were up for and what I, myself, had been up for. But by the time I got back to it, it was gone. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Got to put the trans in her place, cant have her thinking her words are equal to a mans /sarcasm--Laurelai (talk) 12:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do we really want content from a cabal of liars? /sarcasm ·FemiliskSJ 12:50, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given that you've ignored the evidence on this page, and from your own quote posted here, it's clear you are doing nothing to correct the perception over on FB, why don't you fuck off back you your cabal of liars and go back to trolling the FB group? Because you really aren't helping. PsyGremlinParla! 12:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- So you admit you have no proof. Im calling hitchens razor. I dismiss your claims because you produce no evidence. Good day sir. --Laurelai (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Don't trust a single thing Ace says. He'd make black white if someone implied he was anything less than honest, good, or blameless What really? You fucking said I was actively and personally stalking people and making sexist comments with out a single shred of evidence and you call me a liar? My word.... Acei9 21:03, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I also add that I have been here 7 years and have active friendships with many of the long-time RW users. They know I am not the liar you proclaim I am so, yeah. Why don't you tell everyone how I stalk people again. That was a good one. Acei9 21:10, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given the lies you posted and then deleted about Ace stalking people, your comments above can be taken with a healthy amount of salt. Or disregaraded altogether. PsyGremlinParla! 14:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given you have no evidence (while I do for my side of the story) your comments can be taken with an unhealthy, pulse-elevating, amount of salt. ·FemiliskSJ 14:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Story taken with the whole salt mine then? --Laurelai (talk) 15:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Salt Lake City ·FemiliskSJ 15:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm only salty from bathing in the tears of people who decided to stage, and then support those who staged, a McShitfit±
KnightOfTL;DRyeah, well you fight like a cow! 15:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm only salty from bathing in the tears of people who decided to stage, and then support those who staged, a McShitfit±
- Salt Lake City ·FemiliskSJ 15:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Story taken with the whole salt mine then? --Laurelai (talk) 15:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given you have no evidence (while I do for my side of the story) your comments can be taken with an unhealthy, pulse-elevating, amount of salt. ·FemiliskSJ 14:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given the lies you posted and then deleted about Ace stalking people, your comments above can be taken with a healthy amount of salt. Or disregaraded altogether. PsyGremlinParla! 14:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I also add that I have been here 7 years and have active friendships with many of the long-time RW users. They know I am not the liar you proclaim I am so, yeah. Why don't you tell everyone how I stalk people again. That was a good one. Acei9 21:10, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
While some psychologists could say that having everyone vent and throw a shit-fit might be cathartic and useful, I'm going to point out that we're all natural allies here, and the rift opening up because of this issue is currently being wilfully and enthusiastically pried open by folks from both sides. At this point, it almost seems like folks are lashing out for the sake of lashing out. Specifically, the following:
(I'll preface this by saying that I apologize if I use incorrect pronouns; I don't know any of you, so I'm mostly going off assumptions. Please feel free to correct me if I err.)
Ace, for one thing, I've pored over the Facebook group, and I really see no evidence that Femilisk was involved in the whole labelling issue. You may believe she's an ineffective admin for other reasons, but in all of this drama, she only showed up to briefly point out that she wasn't involved, and that's that. If you want to argue that she should have stepped in to stop things, that's fine, but in continuing to lay blame at her feet, you're only serving to paint her with a broader brush than you should be using. In the same vein, it seems that David has stepped back from saying this is an issue about MRAs. Again, you may have other problems with David or his handling of the situation, and it's obvious that some folks are still painting this as a gender issues problem, but David doesn't seem to be one of them right now. There is no "official" story because the FB group isn't even an official arm of the RMF or RW. If David's backing down from that story, why not let him?
To those painting this as an MRA issue: it certainly doesn't seem to be. There may be individuals who have reasons to dislike Ace or the others involved, but to level an accusation about them being MRAs requires some evidence that they are such. No, I'm not pinning this on anyone specific in the conversation, but a cursory glance at the Facebook group suggests (at the very least) that this is not an uncommon viewpoint among folks who have been following this issue. - Grant (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I don't contribute much here, so I can appreciate that my voice probably doesn't carry a lot of weight. I lurk a lot, though, and have been lurking fairly regularly for around a year longer than my account is old. I don't think the Facebook group is much different than what this place would be like if all the conversations happened in real time (though I admit to harboring a strong dislike of image memes). There are a couple of reasons I don't contribute much. For one, I am very lazy. Incredibly so. But aside from that, there are plenty of times when it seems like this place is full of assholes. I mean, if I go looking through talk pages it doesn't take very long to find some RWian being an asshole towards some other RWian. Maybe it is all old stuff that doesn't happen anymore and is still visible on talk pages that don't get a lot of edits. I tend to like to assume that everyone is engaging in some casual joshing around, but I can't actually tell, and I only make that assumption because I like the content here. I'm not saying I'm better than that either--I try to own my assholism. I am saying, though, that it discourages me from contributing. Maybe this is just an issue that I, personally, have because I'm not a part of the community, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that if there is any one big way in which Rationalwiki fails to live up to its name (yes, yes, enjoy your drinks), it is in an often surprising lack of civility amongst the membership. Dowdicus (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I would perhaps add that the Facebook group also appears worse not only because it happens in real time, but also because comments on Facebook are much more visible. One has to at least know to wander to the right controversial talk pages (or patrol recent changes) to see this kind of behaviour on the wiki. On the other hand, the format of Facebook's groups means that any such comments are only a click away. I don't think the Facebook group is "worse" than RW so much as it is different. I think RW could benefit from more civility overall as well, but I'm not sure whether that view is in the minority here. I personally was scared of contributing (and so only lurked for my first year here) for very similar reasons. - Grant (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I disagree, the cut and thrust of intellectual argument here is stimulating. People prosecute their cases aggressively - in a manner that is not possible outside of the anonymity provided by a website. Like most of us I spend far too much time in real life being diplomatic and I find it liberating not to have to bite my tongue here when someone says something stupid. I also find it refreshing that I will get called out for anything stupid that I say, in no uncertain terms. When people's unexamined prejudices, assumptions or beliefs aren't discarded we sometimes get big blow ups that consume the wiki (HCM) but these are generally satisfactorily solved in the coop by the mob (I say generally because I disagree with a few prominent decisions). This is a vanishingly rare occurence these days - which is in my opinion not a good thing. Conflict shows that we haven't yet descended into group-think. The FB group had the snark but didn't have the dispute resolution process and you can clearly see the result. I have looked at the FB group maybe twice, it's not the wiki, and it certainly shouldn't be an impetus to try and enforce some sort of civility principles here. Tielec01 (talk) 02:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's an interesting viewpoint, and one I hadn't thought of before. I can't say I entirely agree, since I feel that in many cases that aggression can be turned inward a bit too often. While it is indeed nice that people get called out for their stupidity, I'm not sure I feel it's so useful when new editors making relatively simple mistakes end up harangued by other editors. I've also met a few new editors who held positions that weren't really in line with RW, and managed to convince them to change their position. The "shoot first and ask questions later" can drive off editors/readers like that; the individuals who hold to an incorrect view out of ignorance or legitimate lack of understanding. That said, this is somewhat moot, as there's no way any attempt to enforce civility principles would ever work here. That's the double-edged sword of RW's lack of bureaucracy.
- I do agree that the Facebook group presents a problem when weighed against these same standards. Unlike RW, where members are routinely sysop'd after a few weeks of editing, Facebook administrator positions are rare and effectively omnipotent (at least as far as group management is concerned). Similarly, no dispute resolution process exists, as you mention, making handling issues on the Facebook group impossible without involving the administrators. Of course, it's also worth noting that unlike on RW, members of the Facebook group are also required to adhere to Facebook's Terms of Service. It's a different ballgame altogether.
- I think the obvious take-away is that we can't treat the RW Facebook group the same way we treat RW. That certainly seems to be the crux of the issue in this latest explosion, in that a group of RW editors disgruntled with the administrators decided to take matters into their own hands. - Grant (talk) 05:01, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- I disagree, the cut and thrust of intellectual argument here is stimulating. People prosecute their cases aggressively - in a manner that is not possible outside of the anonymity provided by a website. Like most of us I spend far too much time in real life being diplomatic and I find it liberating not to have to bite my tongue here when someone says something stupid. I also find it refreshing that I will get called out for anything stupid that I say, in no uncertain terms. When people's unexamined prejudices, assumptions or beliefs aren't discarded we sometimes get big blow ups that consume the wiki (HCM) but these are generally satisfactorily solved in the coop by the mob (I say generally because I disagree with a few prominent decisions). This is a vanishingly rare occurence these days - which is in my opinion not a good thing. Conflict shows that we haven't yet descended into group-think. The FB group had the snark but didn't have the dispute resolution process and you can clearly see the result. I have looked at the FB group maybe twice, it's not the wiki, and it certainly shouldn't be an impetus to try and enforce some sort of civility principles here. Tielec01 (talk) 02:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I would perhaps add that the Facebook group also appears worse not only because it happens in real time, but also because comments on Facebook are much more visible. One has to at least know to wander to the right controversial talk pages (or patrol recent changes) to see this kind of behaviour on the wiki. On the other hand, the format of Facebook's groups means that any such comments are only a click away. I don't think the Facebook group is "worse" than RW so much as it is different. I think RW could benefit from more civility overall as well, but I'm not sure whether that view is in the minority here. I personally was scared of contributing (and so only lurked for my first year here) for very similar reasons. - Grant (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
I think...
...that you should all just have a nice cup of tea. Ajkgordon (talk) 17:31, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I've had like five so far. :3 ·FemiliskSJ 17:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I do enjoy the occasional tea, but I'm primarily a coffee man myself. - Grant (talk) 18:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I would figure a brew between buds would be the best way to work it out. or wine, if that's your thing.One tin soldier (talk) 21:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Either/or for me. - Grant (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I just got a case of various wines in the mail if anybody chooses to partake. Just pick your poison. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- How 'bout some Mongolian style Airag? GØØBY PLS Impurity is the secret
09:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- How 'bout some Mongolian style Airag? GØØBY PLS Impurity is the secret
- I just got a case of various wines in the mail if anybody chooses to partake. Just pick your poison. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Either/or for me. - Grant (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I would figure a brew between buds would be the best way to work it out. or wine, if that's your thing.One tin soldier (talk) 21:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I do enjoy the occasional tea, but I'm primarily a coffee man myself. - Grant (talk) 18:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Creating a new space for discussions on MRA/Gender-issues
I think that we need to create a space where people can discuss these issues. I am thinking along the lines of "What's going on in the Manosphere" as part of the WIGO project. This would be part and parcel of the mission of explorations of authoritarianism. Sexism is a part of that and there is a large section of the media, internet and society, which often objectify of women, treat women as their sexual property, and espouse a desire to return society to a time where men were the dominant gender. This is an issue of authoritarianism because it marginalizes and oppresses women when women have to fear about perceptions about the way they act, the way the dress, and they are able to live their lives over the fear that they could be sexually harassed and assaulted, not to mention the other ways women face discrimination in society. We need a space to call out the places in society that feed this. I don't necessarily think the Facebook page is the best place for this because it can easily be hijacked by people with their own agendas. But if the Facebook page isn't the best place for that then we need a space for this kind of discussion. Nchriste (talk) 00:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- We got enough WIGOs already - use clogs for this. Conversation about gender issues can happen on the talk page of the relevant article. Not sure that this is necessary. Tielec01 (talk) 01:14, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Relegating to its own special place is only going to be viewed as it not being good enough to play at the big tables. --Miekal 01:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Then we need to defend the spaces where people can share this material if we're not going to create a separate space for this. We need to stand up to those who attempt to derail attempts to bring these issue into the conversation. On the Facebook, we can't allow admins that are going to strangle the conversation on gender issues. I'm glad that Olivia and others took a stand on this issue. I would note though that WIGO:Citizendium has had only 8 postings in the past 6 months, one of which was to mock the lack of postings. I've posted almost as many times on sex/gender issues in WIGO:Clogs and WIGO:World. WIGO:CP has also had very few postings. February and March only had one posting each. Nchriste (talk) 02:06, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Defend against what, exactly? While there editors who question the extent to which gender issues are germane to the mission and thus to mainspace content, I don't see where WIGO/WIGO talk pages or the Saloon Bar are having content removed because it addresses gender issues; there have been threads about gender and all related topics in those spaces since the first time I saw the place. Uunless you're talking about BoNs/drive-by editors/trolls who out of the blue post threads about how hard-done men are, in which case, fuck them, because they are horrible people and totally irrelevant. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 02:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- What Father Vivian said. If you're specifically referring to the Facebook group, on the other hand, I don't think the issue with this "coup" was an attempt to shut down gender issues so much as it was an attempt to protest the way administrators were administrating the group. - Grant (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- When anything political is involved, what will be perceived as 'authoritarian' depends on your point of view. This notion of "derailment", for instance: welcome to the Internet, where it's a fact of life that threads drift, and anything you say might be challenged. Sensitivity bullying is as authoritarian as any other kind, as are all forms of moral aggression. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 02:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- What Father Vivian said. If you're specifically referring to the Facebook group, on the other hand, I don't think the issue with this "coup" was an attempt to shut down gender issues so much as it was an attempt to protest the way administrators were administrating the group. - Grant (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Defend against what, exactly? While there editors who question the extent to which gender issues are germane to the mission and thus to mainspace content, I don't see where WIGO/WIGO talk pages or the Saloon Bar are having content removed because it addresses gender issues; there have been threads about gender and all related topics in those spaces since the first time I saw the place. Uunless you're talking about BoNs/drive-by editors/trolls who out of the blue post threads about how hard-done men are, in which case, fuck them, because they are horrible people and totally irrelevant. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 02:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I've seen in some articles that contain a link to wp on a subject, have instead of a cite number in the exponent position, a [wp]. What's the markup to do that?
I would check the markup of a page containing such a link but of course now I can't find one.
Thanks
- answer is in here--Miekal 06:40, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, you need Template:Wpl. The link provided by Miekal explains ordinary interwiki links.--ZooGuard (talk) 07:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- It should be added to those help pages. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:04, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- It should be added to those help pages. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Hi. Long time lurker here. It would be nice to have links to good/featured articles at the end of pages (I know they're at the right on some articles but it's good to keep visitors/readers interested in reading diverse articles on the page. I've made a couple mockups (scroll down to the end of the pages) as to how they might look. The first is with some subcategories with a random article (both categories and articles can be randomised) and the second mockup is with articles that actually have images. Would this be worth considering?
--Shabidoo (talk) 00:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- No because it just looks out of place to suddenly have big square links to article--Mikal | lakiM 04:00, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- This just looks like a copy of the clickbait you get on news sites etc, and they only do that for the ad revenue. Also, who would decide what gets linked? There'd be lots of pointless squabbling among the people who cared, and a lot of eyerolling from everyone else. SophieWilder
18:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- I just assumed that the featured and gold articles would be fine. Much like there is the random featured article button I thought this would be a good way to have visitors read more featured articles and exploring different categories. But if this is just going to cause grief...then let's forget about it. --Shabidoo (talk) 18:44, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- This just looks like a copy of the clickbait you get on news sites etc, and they only do that for the ad revenue. Also, who would decide what gets linked? There'd be lots of pointless squabbling among the people who cared, and a lot of eyerolling from everyone else. SophieWilder
I started an article on my talk page about misnomers, seeing as many crank organizations use them. I started wondering if maybe "Misnomers" could be used as an article category tag.
Thoughts on how to proceed?— Unsigned, by: Super Saiyan Musashi / talk / contribs
- A category would be nice, but I see no need for a full article. The text you've already written seems like it's all that we could really say about misnomers, and it would be fine as the text of a category page. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:05, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Today, we don't link to racist hate sites on the web, but we do link to non-racist hate sites, conspiracy teorists, alt medders, general cranks... y'know, the webshites that make our trade. I propose we scrap this policy and use "Do Not Link" on this assorted array of characters. This way, we can link to them - ALL of them - without giving them more pagerank. And this is also a good thing for us, because, as they point out, too often critics linking to these webpages, making these webpages increase Google's pagerank. -- Faunas (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- All external links on MediaWiki wikis use the "nofollow" property, so in theory they shouldn't be increasing anyone's search engine rank. Given the amount of linkspam on poorly maintained wikis, I doubt that Google has revised their policy on respecting the "nofollow".
- AFAIK, the practice of not-linking to Stormfront & Co. originated when they noticed the referers (the origin of the incoming links) and RW got attention from their userbase.
- There have also been incidents of sites using the referers to automatically redirect visitors from RW to fake pages or error messages. This is why Template:Unref was created.
- (In case it's unclear, I'm against mass redirection. It's necessary only in select instances.)--ZooGuard (talk) 13:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- As we use "nofollow" I think we should link to everybody. It certainly won't change their Google ranking. I think Human unilaterally decided that we weren't going to link to Metapedia one time and the policy grew from there. (I could be wrong on this.)--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 14:01, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think we need new policy, and "nofollow" happens automatically. On e.g. European Union Times, the links are reference links - David Gerard (talk) 08:27, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
- DNL is something of the in vogue darling of the skeptic world right now. But I think it's massively overrated and somewhat largely irrelevant/useless. It's predicated on search engines working in particular ways, but those methods are constantly evolving. Facebook's algorithm can boost or decimate a site's traffic influx overnight if they play with it, ditto Google. And frequently (and increasingly), it's not so much what you link to but what keywords you use and talk about, or what else you "like" via things like Facebook, Google+ and/or Twitter. I'm indirectly boosting the traffic and prominence of some very bizarre sites merely because those topics are discussed - not linked to - on the RW Facebook group. DNL wouldn't stop that, which is going to be the big problem in the next few years if you're really concerned about accidentally promoting things or giving them too much publicity. You also have to remember that despite what skeptics might think, their opinion is in the minority. Look at the popularity of the biggest names in skepticism and you'll see it's still an order of magnitude below even the most minor of popstars. We're not the be-all and end-all of internet traffic. The ability of a skeptic group to link to, or DNL to, a certain piece of content isn't, as a rule, a major contributor of views. Only in rare, very specific circumstances does click-bait get a majority of its traffic from such detractors. But you can't host an entire site on that business model; the Daily Mail's website couldn't survive just on the odd inflammatory piece to drive traffic - it actually has legitimate supporters doing 95% of the work. DNL would have a minor effect, at best. Remembering to DNL everything we share is comparatively high effort (even mass redirecting with a bot would take time to set the bot up) for, let's be honest, absolutely zero impact. If you want to make yourself feel better by "doing something", then recycle paper. {{subst:expand:User:Armondikov/sig}} 09:30, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Lately, every time I try to load my watch list, any page history or my contributions list, the site seizes up on me and it won't load. Everything else seems fine. Anyone know anything about this? The Moose (talk) 07:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Technical support is that that way. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:31, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
We have quite a few mainspace 'article' pages that consist of literally just one or two lines. I think this is really discourteous to the reader, especially if they waste time following a link to one of these pages thinking it's an actual article being linked, only to be confronted with a blank page with a handful of words at the top. If all we have to say on a topic is a sentence or two, then we should include that as part of whatever article most closely relates to the topic, not as a separate page on its own.
I've checked in special:ShortPages and dealt with a few easy cases, but there's still the following (and more). Some of these are potentially on-mission subjects, & some are linked from multiple pages. If you've got any knowledge or interest in any of these subjects, can you please try to expand, merge, redirect or delete them as appropriate. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 02:07, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Edward Davies(deleted)Shiv Sena(redirected)Affective heuristic (deleted)- <s>Neil Shubin (deleted)
Dehumanization(deleted)Max Heindel(deleted)God Loves Uganda(deleted)Evolution: A Fairy Tale for Grownups(redirected)Avesta(deleted)Midrash(deleted)The Humanist(deleted)QED (conference)(deleted)Gary Goodyear(deleted)Kidnapped for Christ(deleted)Ahmadiyya(deleted)Mike Schuler(deleted)Aurora plane(deleted)Puppet state(redirected)Darrell Huff(deleted)Operation Mindfuck(redirected)Creationist cosmologies(deleted)The Gesundheit Institute(deleted)Conway Hall Ethical Society(deleted)Arthur Scargill(deleted)Obeah(redirected)Phil Robertson(deleted)Scalawag(deleted)Xenoarchaeology(deleted)Argumentum ad lapidem(redirected)- Maximillien de Lafayette
- Information asymmetry
Ad Exstirpanda(deleted)- Moody Institute of Science
Ahle Quran(deleted)Talking point(redirected)- Consensus theory
R.C. Sproul(deleted)Alma Geddon(redirected)- Lipids - meh, who cares?
Common cold(deleted)Fortean Times(deleted)- Several of the mainspace US states pages
- California could be deleted and redirected to fun space, imo. Nullahnung (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Same with the other state one-liners that have fun space articles. Nullahnung (talk) 02:27, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Gary Goodyear is currently my MP, and what's written in the article is basically all he's notable for. Note that he isn't even the Minister of State for Science and Technology anymore, and even when he was, all he did was go around presenting grants at official functions. He made no real decisions. Also, much like most Canadian politicians, he denied his anti-evolution stance when prodded about it. I met with him for a few hours last year, and while he's basically your typical Conservative politician, I doubt he's interesting enough for us to generate a worthwhile article on him. - Grant (Talk) 15:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- Deleted. It was only linked from a couple of 'see also' sections & an old WIGO. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 17:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- Deleted. It was only linked from a couple of 'see also' sections & an old WIGO. Щєазєюіδ
- Gary Goodyear is currently my MP, and what's written in the article is basically all he's notable for. Note that he isn't even the Minister of State for Science and Technology anymore, and even when he was, all he did was go around presenting grants at official functions. He made no real decisions. Also, much like most Canadian politicians, he denied his anti-evolution stance when prodded about it. I met with him for a few hours last year, and while he's basically your typical Conservative politician, I doubt he's interesting enough for us to generate a worthwhile article on him. - Grant (Talk) 15:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Following a discussion on our facebook group, it has come to my attention that the whitelist and blacklist of websites/resources we have includes a lot of news sources in the blacklist, but not too many in the whitelist. In the discussion on the facebook group, another user put forth the idea that we should give each a star rating based on credibility. Obviously, we could merge this into our articles on each of the sources, which will explain why we rated it as such. Some, like the guardian, might get, say, 4 stars for being generally reliable, but not 5, because of the strange thing they seem to have with their commenting, and Judaism, etc (just an example). This could be a significant addition to the site. What do you think? --P3A58NT86 10:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't want to a site to drop a star because of the comments. SophieWilder
20:09, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- You raise a good point. That is why I want to see where this discussion goes.--P3A58NT86 03:38, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of discussion lately, often very heated, about what exactly falls under the scope of RationalWiki's mission. In particular, there are plenty of arguments between Smerdis and PSL, or Smerdis and Sophie, or Smerdis and... well, anyone else really, about whether some article or another is within the RW mission.
While I agree that refuting pseudoscience is a laudable goal and one that we should continue pursuing, I disagree with those who say that it should be our sole focus. As we're a rationalist community, I feel we should be shining a critical eye on many areas not currently covered, or only tangentially covered, by our mission statement. In particular, politics as a whole ought to be part of what we analyze and critique.
This site started out with a focus on criticizing one particular, politically driven website, and politics has always been part of the RationalWiki dialogue. (Many contributors here now are too new to remember it, but when Bush was president, the main page had a clock counting down the days until he left office, with a delightfully snarky randomized template accompanying it.) Yet lately it seems that some users, particularly PowderSmokeAndLeather, want to focus only on those parts of the political dialogue in which pseudoscience plays a heavy part. As an example, I recently started an article on right-to-work laws, to which many other contributors have since added useful content. The idea wasn't mine; I took it from the suggestion box, where it had received many upvotes. Yet not long after that, PSL issued a challenge on the talk page regarding its missionality. And frankly, I don't think PSL was wrong, in that as the rules stand now, we have no particular business commenting on right-to-work laws. They aren't under our purview. The fact that the idea received so many upvotes in the to-do list suggests to me that there is a disconnect between what the mission statement says we talk about (pseudoscience, cranks, authoritarianism, and the media) and what we actually want to talk about (the above, plus politics, society, culture, religion, etc.).
I think Smerdis's addition of plenty of articles that have been challenged for missionality (Indo-European languages, Romanticism, etc.) has brought to the surface this issue, but I think it predates his arrival here, and I think now is the time that we should talk about it. The question I want to ask is:
Should we expand the RationalWiki mission statement to include broader coverage of topics in politics and society?
I personally believe the answer is "yes." I look forward to hearing others' opinions. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 05:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I understand PowderSmokeAndLeather's reasoning behind streamlining the political content, but we are always going to have debates over what is going to be on mission regardless of updating the text. I'd disagree with deleting right-to-work despite it not relating to "doctrinaire" pseudoscience; the policy remains purely in the US experience, but various politicians outside the country have suggested to mimic it (because if it's American, it's therefore good) while the vast majority of mainstream academics, based in labour law or economics, say it will do more harm than benefit. If that doesn't fit 2. Documenting the full range of crank ideas, I don't know what does.
- Same goes for, say, World War II. On its own it's just a history recap, but the features of the war — the levelling of entire countries, extermination of civilians, the treatment of POWs and unethical experimentation, all because of the spread of blatanly wrong theories about government and racial supremacy (and the aftermath, with historical revisionism/denialism and the creation of even more dangerous weapons, purely due to ideological motivation) — make it a necessary portal for me. Osaka Sun (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Long time reader here. Stick with what the site's good at: exposing and mocking stupidity, including politics. WW2 is a good example of a subject where both the reader and the writer would be better served by Wikipedia. Holocaust denial or a revival of such pseudoscience would be more RW's realm. Stringbeans (talk) 06:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I do think that "check Wikipedia for just the facts" is an approach we could be taking more often, but defining our mission as "exposing and mocking stupidity, including politics" would seem to be even more vague than the current one, and would likely invite more debate about whether individual topics qualify. I would rather we cover both the good and the bad elements of any topic we consider to be part of our domain; that way an article's relevance isn't determined by the positions espoused by its subject.
- Long time reader here. Stick with what the site's good at: exposing and mocking stupidity, including politics. WW2 is a good example of a subject where both the reader and the writer would be better served by Wikipedia. Holocaust denial or a revival of such pseudoscience would be more RW's realm. Stringbeans (talk) 06:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Let me propose a thought experiment. Suppose a YouTube vlogger starts accumulating tons of pageviews and inspires commentary from others because he says things that are ignorant of political facts and that appeal to ill-informed voters. That would seem to fall within the definition of "stupid," and we would be right to criticize it. Then suppose that same vlogger has a change of heart, and starts doing research before posting, and his arguments and positions change accordingly, becoming mostly fact-based. Does he no longer fall within our domain of interest? Defining our mission as "combating stupid ideas" or something similar would seem to suggest that when someone stops making stupid arguments, they aren't relevant to us anymore. I think it's better for us to first define a range of topics we want to cover (esp. politics), and then state that our position is the superiority of evidence-based reasoning, etc. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Combating pseudo-science is a nice clear objective. We can more-or-less define it and there is a standard against which we can measure it - real science. You know when it's right an you know when it's not.
- But "politics as a whole"? That's a lot more messy. I'm not even sure what that would entail, but it would certainly mean that we would need to decide on what was politically acceptable and what was not. We would need to select some political standard to support and presumably criticise other political opinions which differed from the one we had decided upon.
- I accept that we sort of do this already but having written these notes I'm starting to wonder if we should even do that.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 09:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we would need to "decide on what was politically acceptable and what was not," beyond a simple principle of evidence-based reasoning, which we all (presumably) agree on already. We don't necessarily all have to have the same position on every issue; in fact, having many positions represented is probably healthier for the community. What I'm envisioning is a RationalWiki that has a base of factual knowledge and then uses that base to criticize politicians and pundits whose arguments and positions are not based on observed reality. A sort of reality-based community wiki, if you will. It's a natural extension of the science-versus-religious-fundamentalism coverage, and it does not require users to take specific positions beyond a basic principle of empiricism. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well, your initial proposal was "politics as a whole" which seems pretty inclusive. But how does what you are proposing in the paragraph above differ from what we do already? Take Global Warming - a science subject with major political and social overtones - we've got no problem with that.
- So can you give an example of a specific subject or topic which would be covered by your politics proposal which we would not cover now?--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 09:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- It is hard to say, because the boundaries are not clearly defined as they are now, which is why there's so much debating about what is on-mission and what is not. Take the above comments on right-to-work laws, for instance. Osaka believes it's on-mission; PSL doesn't (or at least didn't; we'll see whether his position has changed if he chimes in soon). So my proposal would cement the missionality of topics like that – from PSL and other skeptics' perspectives, they are being added to our domain, but from Osaka's perspective, it's just a clarification that such topics are already covered.
- I don't think we would need to "decide on what was politically acceptable and what was not," beyond a simple principle of evidence-based reasoning, which we all (presumably) agree on already. We don't necessarily all have to have the same position on every issue; in fact, having many positions represented is probably healthier for the community. What I'm envisioning is a RationalWiki that has a base of factual knowledge and then uses that base to criticize politicians and pundits whose arguments and positions are not based on observed reality. A sort of reality-based community wiki, if you will. It's a natural extension of the science-versus-religious-fundamentalism coverage, and it does not require users to take specific positions beyond a basic principle of empiricism. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Let me propose a thought experiment. Suppose a YouTube vlogger starts accumulating tons of pageviews and inspires commentary from others because he says things that are ignorant of political facts and that appeal to ill-informed voters. That would seem to fall within the definition of "stupid," and we would be right to criticize it. Then suppose that same vlogger has a change of heart, and starts doing research before posting, and his arguments and positions change accordingly, becoming mostly fact-based. Does he no longer fall within our domain of interest? Defining our mission as "combating stupid ideas" or something similar would seem to suggest that when someone stops making stupid arguments, they aren't relevant to us anymore. I think it's better for us to first define a range of topics we want to cover (esp. politics), and then state that our position is the superiority of evidence-based reasoning, etc. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Other topics that would shift from "maybe relevant" to "definitely relevant" would include: corporate influence in politics/funding of campaigns; legality of marijuana; health care reform; LGBT rights; and honestly, pretty much every contemporary political issue other than evolution and global warming, which are already in the "definitely relevant" category. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Very simply, I say this: Does the political article further serve #1-4 on the front page? No? Then I have no interest in it. However, it can be reasonably stated that the whole of politics has some relation to cranks and pseudoscience. Even something as seemingly mundane as right-to-work can have such a link; look at the whackaloons who claim RTW laws give them the right to be God-bosses and demand blowjobs from their employees. I see no reason to further expand the mission, as I see the mission as broad enough already. --Castaigne (talk) 04:15, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
There is irrationality in every single sphere of society. A lot of it is in science, but much of it is in politics, economics, education, child care, medicine etc - fields which may or may not be connected to science. Truly being rational means being rational in all things, and fighting irrationality in every single instance. I therefore do not think that we should restrict ourselves to the fight against any particular type of irrationality. Madscientistjaidev (talk) 13:03, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
No more feminist and gender politics and transexualism
We should stick to debunking pseudoscience like creationism, race-denialism, gender politics feminist bullshit etc.— Unsigned, by: 174.88.154.64 / talk / contribs
- What an amusing little fart of an idea that was. Tell me, do you have any evidence that so-called "race-denialism" is a pseudoscience? Or even any reason to oppose our coverage of ideas you cannot even be bothered to spell correctly?
- And Psy and Osaka, please cut down on pointless reverts. Ignorance is best treated with exposure to knowledge, not hidden in the shadows of the subconscious minds of fools. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 08:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Unless you want this page to look like this one, I'd suggest you be wary. Osaka Sun (talk) 09:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Admittedly, that was a ridiculously long-winded argument. Nevertheless, when we revert the first comment someone makes on a particular forum it looks less like "stop this before it turns into a shitstorm" and more like pure censorship, which I firmly oppose. Even when used on Dunning-Kruger poster-boys like our anonymous friend here. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Unless you want this page to look like this one, I'd suggest you be wary. Osaka Sun (talk) 09:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Patriarchy is a fact. Some of the views of patriarchy as espoused by feminist theorists are crankish in the extent at which they believe that males actively conspire to enforce oppression of women. That women have been oppressed by patriarchal structures is fact. That the human species evolved to be patriarchal and that there are massive examples of gender differentiated behavior in all species is fact - biologically catalyzed patriarchal systems oppress a large number of females, but not to the extent that a large portion of males also get oppressed (e.g. Silverback Ape social structure involves female submission, but even stricter male submission). That there are differing issues affecting males and females is fact - areas in which each gender deals with oppressive and/or detrimental conditions. That women, men, transgendered, and the such should have the rights as everyone should be "self-evident." That surgically altering one's genitals and taking hormones does not make one biologically the opposite sex is fact. That gender is mostly a social construct, but also partially genetic to varying degrees is self-evident. I personally believe "privilege" theory is somewhat a crank notion - the fact that a police officer profiles black people and leaves me alone because I'm 15/16th's white doesn't make me privileged, it makes the police officer a racist and these ideas should be opposed. I think the idea that the majority of religious people are driven out of a motivation of "homophobia" when they are opposed to homosexual behavior is a crank notion - though some certainly are. I think for most it's just a rule and not an intrinsic hatred of homosexuals (some people are very driven by rules, it's just the way things are). I could be wrong on that, that's my personal experience growing up when I was a fundie. I never hated anyone who was gay - it was just against the rules and I was no perfect follower of the rules so I didn't feel qualified to hold people in contempt for it. Some gender theorists are nearly religious fundies in their unwillingness to examine other points of view or rationalizing away data which contradicts their dogma. But there are many hetero-normative types who do the same. I recently got in an edit war over what the actual motto of the Muslim Brotherhood is and found a weasel passage suggesting that only Christian countries (sub-Saharan) in Africa are homophobic on the "homophobia" page - so there's definitely a few disingenuous apologists on multiple sides of political arguments on this site. Bloomingdedalus (talk) 09:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, these sorts of discussions belong in a separate forum post. It's just neater.
- Second of all, in the Africa section of the homophobia article, it specifically did NOT specify which religion was meant, therefore you saying that it was suggesting only Christian countries is jumping to unwarranted conclusions. What you did to that section, which is to specify both Muslim and Christian, is fine, of course, I'm not arguing about that. I'm just saying that you're calling people disingenuous apologists on the basis of unwarranted conclusions.
- Third of all, (while I trust that you put up a truthful motto in the Muslim Brotherhood article, and I wouldn't revert it if you put it in again) your arguments about the BBC practicing Islamist denialism don't seem to hold any water, as a simple google search of Islam-related BBC articles will demonstrate. Again, you're calling people disingenuous apologists on the basis of unwarranted conclusions. Nullahnung (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Listicles and sharticles
PSaL may be engaging in overkill a bit, but I see his point. Regardless of the larger issue, I think we can all agree that we need to cut down on uninformative listicles and other articles that seem to have no purpose other than to say "Look, it's a wingnut!" (I admit to being guilty of perpetrating this as well.) in addition to avoiding the "crappy version of Wikipedia problem." Although this is not confined to political articles, I feel like this is a particular problem with them. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- I may not be the most qualified to contribute, since I haven't contributed all that much to the wiki (mostly just lurking and keeping an eye on pseudoscientists trying to push their stuff into the quantum articles), but it seems to me that this is exactly the problem. While the wiki's pseudoscience articles are (for the most part) fairly sound, well-backed, and supported by the evidence, many of the articles on politics and social issues tend to be poorly written. I've seen many political articles on this wiki that seem like they are no more than an outlet for the author's venting. - GrantC (talk) 15:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. I'd say that it would better to reduce the political content than increase it.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 16:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- If our political articles are of low quality, it would seem to me that the proper solution would be to work on them, not cut them out entirely. Though I would agree that we shouldn't have "look it's a wingnut" articles; I would prefer we focus on issues and misinformation surrounding them. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 17:58, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- My interest is less in politics and more in science, so I don't purport to know what the best solution is for the community as a whole (I will not likely be venturing into editing any of the articles on social or political issues). I think the question is: what is the effort required to bring the relevant political and social issues articles up to par? Also, as sort of a corollary to the discussion in the section above, it's important to draw the line between misinformation about social/political issues (as you keep mentioning) and the unstable morass that is the current coverage, which often seems to be comprised mostly of attacks on whatever political position the article author disagrees with most vehemently that day. - GrantC (talk) 18:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- I guess I'd rather see us improve what we have rather than take new directions. Some of the articles listed on the Main page are very mission-centric but could use vast improvement.
talk 20:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's much easier to say what is right and wrong in science, and politics are heavily culturally nuanced. I don't think we need to expand into the political arena any more than we have, and if anything we should cut back and focus on what can be proven or disproven.
ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.
20:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's much easier to say what is right and wrong in science, and politics are heavily culturally nuanced. I don't think we need to expand into the political arena any more than we have, and if anything we should cut back and focus on what can be proven or disproven.
- I guess I'd rather see us improve what we have rather than take new directions. Some of the articles listed on the Main page are very mission-centric but could use vast improvement.
- My interest is less in politics and more in science, so I don't purport to know what the best solution is for the community as a whole (I will not likely be venturing into editing any of the articles on social or political issues). I think the question is: what is the effort required to bring the relevant political and social issues articles up to par? Also, as sort of a corollary to the discussion in the section above, it's important to draw the line between misinformation about social/political issues (as you keep mentioning) and the unstable morass that is the current coverage, which often seems to be comprised mostly of attacks on whatever political position the article author disagrees with most vehemently that day. - GrantC (talk) 18:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- If our political articles are of low quality, it would seem to me that the proper solution would be to work on them, not cut them out entirely. Though I would agree that we shouldn't have "look it's a wingnut" articles; I would prefer we focus on issues and misinformation surrounding them. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 17:58, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. I'd say that it would better to reduce the political content than increase it.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 16:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Politics and culture are indeed nuanced, and sometimes there is no right or wrong answer for a particular issue. But sometimes there is. Sometimes there's an argument floating through the discourse that is based on known falsehoods. I feel like the way the mission is right now, we'll only target those arguments if their topic is scientific, and that's a waste of our talents. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 06:05, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
I think stuff on feminism/anti-feminism & LGBT rights is definitely relevant to us. Stuff on governmental politics is mostly relevant, but we should maybe shy away from explicitly taking sides in the liberal vs conservative divide & focus instead on exposing bullshit (from either side). I don't like the articles on the history of languages that are 90% unnecessary trivia justified by a token paragraph acknowledging that some people have unorthodox opinions which are incorrect. I don't think we need articles on ancient history in general: there should be some direct relevance to the modern world. Stuff like WW2, the Holocaust, US slavery, the American Civil War is relevant to us (but doesn't need detailed blow-by-blow coverage here) because of continuing repercussions & controversies relating to these things. The pogrom in Cordoba in 1391, not so much. We periodically get suggestions to write about the Titanic, the Hindenburg disaster, Richard III & the princes in the Tower, etc. I don't see the point. Yeah, there are revisionist theories & conspiracy theories about these things, but they don't impact understanding of modern politics & society to the same extent as, say, Holocaust denialism or the 9/11 truth movement. I don't think we need an article on Shakespeare authorship, for example, but we have one. I wouldn't mind it, but increasingly it seems like the existence of articles like that & British English/American English is being used to justify more off-topic articles about history, languages & literature which don't really relate to anything else we write about. Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:53, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- From my perspective, which at this point is still an outsider's one, I'm a bit uncertain as to whether we want to be a semi-comedic compendium of anti-religious snark, a response to Conservapedia, or some kind of educational resource on pseudoscience and crank theories. If "response to Conservapedia" is the big thing, I'm in the wrong place; I don't give a fuck about Conservapedia. I'm more hoping it was "educational resource on pseudoscience and crank theories".
If this is the mission, we most definitely do need an article on Shakespeare authorship, and I'm just getting started on articles on the history of language; it isn't a sexy science, but it is extremely attractive to old fashioned crackpots. We absolutely need Indo-European languages in that case, and much else beside: Proto-World, Nostratic, Nicholas Marr, Amerind, Etruscan, Joseph Greenberg, Prince Madoc. This isn't the sexiest field of pseudo-science and uninformed published speculation, but it's one I know well. I still do not understand what's off mission about my fairly careful explanation of why the perennial proposals to make English spelling more logical are doomed to failure. It's a crank magnet IMO, not far different from a perpetual motion machine from my outlook. If we're doing this, I've always taken Martin Gardner as my model. You need to leave the article knowing enough of the sound science to be able to explain why the cranks are wrong.
Or maybe our skepticism and educational aims are more limited; we don't cover cranks and pseudoscience generally, only those that make explicitly supernatural claims. This is first and foremost an atheist and agnostic site. I get that it is one, but refuting all religions isn't really why I'm here either. This is what occurs to me as the actual explanation of why an article on English spelling reform is off-topic; it's an article about inherently unworkable crackpot projects, but has nothing to do with God. If this is the case, I may not belong here, either. (But Babylon still does.)
Politics becomes a problem when we deal with political subjects in the peremptory and didactic manner properly addressed to pseudoscience and crackpottery. It's always going to be a problem. I understand that I'm dealing with a consensus perfectly willing to call me nasty names for saying so, but I at bare minimum do not find the confidence of our articles on subjects like privilege, sexual objectification, or patriarchy appropriate. I consider "patriarchy" pure woo, deriving ultimately from nineteenth century armchair anthropology about how there might be some people so primitive they don't know about the birds and the bees. (Tabula rasa and noble savage. Unfortunately, this nonsense got popularized by Friedrich Engels.) Our article on "sexual objectification" told the simple truth when it called the idea a feminist snarl word based on a hostile caricature of male sexuality. "Privilege" is as overbearing and condescending as the reverse-snobbery of the underlying idea. This rubbish is always going to be contested; and I submit that it can be contested by people you could at least count as reasonable, regardless of the fact that they disagree with the site's current consensus about this stuff. Quite simply, I suspect that people who look up these concepts on the skeptical wiki are looking for skeptical opinions, and what they're finding instead is cognitive dissonance and a fair bit of avoidable friction. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC)- I agree with most of that, and the parts I don't agree with I'll save for another time because they're not relevant to my current thesis. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 06:05, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a frequent reader, but not a contributor. Speaking only for myself, I enjoy rationalwiki as a repository of lighthearted but informative and factually accurate (but not unbiased) articles about various inane and insane aspects of our culture. As I see it, the purpose of this wiki is not to be an all inclusive repository of knowledge but rather to confront and debunk ideas that are plainly fallacious. At the risk of being called out as a tumblr social justice warrior (I am no such thing, I promise) the idea of privilege is not really very controversial in social science at this point; if you term it another way, free of some of the baggage heaped on it by above mentioned internet warriors, it's really just a recognition of the effect of cumulative advantage (see also the so called "Yule Process") on social systems. The place where this becomes controversial is when you get into policy prescriptions to change or mitigate this process or in arguments over root causes. I'll go back to lurking now, thanks for humoring me. — Unsigned, by: 68.12.66.141 / talk / contribs
- Those involved in the social sciences have massive disputes, often taking the form of shouting matches and mutual anathematizations, over who is "privileged" and who is not. "Intersectionality" is an attempt to kiss and make up; but it has produced such a big tent that, by current estimates, perhaps 99% of the world's population are deemed "privileged." If the quintessentially non-privileged were to take to the streets, their catchy chant would have to be "We are the 1%!"
ListenerXTalkerX 08:57, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- My biggest concern with some of the political material here is that it's become an actual obstacle to what I see is a more pressing mission, that of winning souls for Darwin. It's amusing to look for stock tropes of denialism in our hatchet piece on evolutionary psychology, for instance; I see quite a few. Unfortunately, the fact of an evolved human nature gets in the way of several utopias. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 21:08, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Such as the forced sterilization of anti-smoking "activists"?--AndYourFoesShallRejoice... (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well, that's certainly one utopia that would be resisted by evolved human nature. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Smerdis, we're not here to "win souls for Darwin". I'm sure as shit not. If I wanted that, I would go to SeriousSkepticWiki. Or Citizendium. --Castaigne (talk) 12:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Such as the forced sterilization of anti-smoking "activists"?--AndYourFoesShallRejoice... (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- My biggest concern with some of the political material here is that it's become an actual obstacle to what I see is a more pressing mission, that of winning souls for Darwin. It's amusing to look for stock tropes of denialism in our hatchet piece on evolutionary psychology, for instance; I see quite a few. Unfortunately, the fact of an evolved human nature gets in the way of several utopias. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 21:08, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Those involved in the social sciences have massive disputes, often taking the form of shouting matches and mutual anathematizations, over who is "privileged" and who is not. "Intersectionality" is an attempt to kiss and make up; but it has produced such a big tent that, by current estimates, perhaps 99% of the world's population are deemed "privileged." If the quintessentially non-privileged were to take to the streets, their catchy chant would have to be "We are the 1%!"
WWII
As Osaka Sun pointed out, it's worth persuing. There's enough revisonism existing by pro Soviet and pro Nazi revisionists, with many of the pro Nazi revsionists coming out on the apperent moral high ground claiming that they just want "justice" for "innocent" victims and that they're debunking revisionism with their own load of horseshit. Fergelteskaya (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Forum: Contracting RW's mission.
Someone told me that I comment I'd made was what drove him to start this conversation. It seems like people have a good sense of where I stand on this, but, just to be clear.We are not Wikipedia, and never will be. By trying to write articles on Guyana and nuclear war that do NOTHING that WP doesn't already do, we're weakening our brand, and distracting attention from taking down pseudo-scientists and woo hucksters. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a crime against humanity and a military decision of questionable virtue. They weren't about the intersection of politics and religious fundamentalism, pseudoscience, or woo. There are trillions of words written about them. Ours say nothing new or valuable.
On the other hand, if our work can keep people from taking Errol_Denton and Ralph_W._Moss seriously, and can get readers to understand why their kids are spouting weird nonsense from their school textbooks, we're doing good work that needs to be done.
If I had my way, there would be a severe culling of mainspace with a narrow reading of the mission held in mind.
Also, not all people who oppose woo, pseudoscience and religious fundamentalism (especially in as far as it influences education and politics) identify with our basic "liberal-left" political orientation. sure, our article on Obama takes the worst of the idolatry around him down a notch or two, but on the whole our political orientation skews massively in a way that alienates some potential readers and contributors. No more articles on partisan political issues unless they distinctly overlap with an issue having to do with science or anti-science. Right to work laws are evil, and of questionable economic value, but they are not woo. Legit economists argue for them. I disagree with them, but they're not the public-policy equivalent of snake-oil salesmen.
None of this will matter, because we will keep allowing editors to write articles on stuff they think is cool or happen to be knowledgeable about, and we will continue to debase the nuggets of real gold on the wiki by filling it with off-mission, third-rate general encyclopedia articles and high-handed fourth-rate partisan analyses.
So it goes. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
14:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I endorse this.
ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science.
14:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thnaks. Afterthought: part of the problem would go away if people would stop redlinking off-mission terms, thereby creating the "But there are 17 redlinks to Tobago on the wiki, so I wrote a stub. It'll get missional if we keep it" defence. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
14:22, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I endorse this. You are a reasonable character.

20:08, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm also a great dancer. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
20:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm also a great dancer. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- I endorse this. You are a reasonable character.
- Thnaks. Afterthought: part of the problem would go away if people would stop redlinking off-mission terms, thereby creating the "But there are 17 redlinks to Tobago on the wiki, so I wrote a stub. It'll get missional if we keep it" defence. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- I say that we should find and raze our plethora of non-mission articles, and focus on expandind/correcting the ones we have, and then we can talk about expanding our mission.
- But saying that right now that wouldn't contribute to the conversation, would it? So, I say that we should diminish our cover of the softer sciences (the humanities and the social sciences) and focus on the harder sciences. It's hard to nail down a "pro-science" view in those, given the oh-so-pronounced rivalry between the harder and softer sciences (now bigger since postmodernism took hold of them in the 90s). But again, that's my socially-constructed, paradigm-enforcing, linguistics-blind engineer side (even if it's software engineering, I still have to take all the math and science regular engineers take. My university's crazy.) --Ray´s Super Fun Hellhole! g͘͡r̸̀a̸̶̡n̶̶͜ţ̡ ̀҉̴̨͡m̀͘͜͢e͡ ̸͟҉̷̢ỳ̸̡̀͞ơ̡̢̡ų̧r̴̀͡͝ ̡҉҉̧̛s̵̕͏̡ǫ̀́͢ų́l̵̕҉ 14:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is so much of the stuff. Most of Category:Fundamental particles, Category:Countries, Category:United States states, and probably not much of Category:Language have much do do with the core mission. And that's just off the top of my head.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 15:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree. I'm going to steer clear of comments about politics, but many of our articles on physics concepts are entirely unnecessary. Even worse, many of them are horribly outdated, and thus aren't even necessarily correct anymore. A while back on a discussion about our quantum computing article, I suggested an idea for handling hard science concepts that I think we could reasonably adopt. For articles on hard science woo, we could open with a short paragraph briefly outlining the actual science, with a reference to another source (Wikipedia is usually a decent for that, seeing as many other scientific sources are behind paywalls). This is what I did with our quantum consciousness article when it briefly mentioned Penrose and Hameroff's crazy mind quantum computing hypothesis. I think this also adds an additional benefit, in that the categories could be cleaned up a bit more to make it easier to find related content. Right now a lot of our science articles are hard to find, and there are even a few that are linked to from only a single isolated page. Thoughts? - GrantC (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Bob: Too much of the stuff? I don't care if it's too much, raze it, burn it to the ground; the fire will be one that our descendants will be proud of our efforts towards RationalWiki's mission. If they are worthy, we are to merge them with on-mission articles; otherwise, they shall be expunged from our humble dwelling. (And I'm also inclined to say that much of our stuff on gender isn't on-mission, but not many others agree with me on that one).
- @GrantC: Yeah. We should outsource science definitions or give a brief outline in the relevant articles. --Ray´s Super Fun Hellhole! g͘͡r̸̀a̸̶̡n̶̶͜ţ̡ ̀҉̴̨͡m̀͘͜͢e͡ ̸͟҉̷̢ỳ̸̡̀͞ơ̡̢̡ų̧r̴̀͡͝ ̡҉҉̧̛s̵̕͏̡ǫ̀́͢ų́l̵̕҉ 19:57, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've kept on about having reference:space over the years, for general science or history articles, only to be met with "what's the harm?" or "everything can be on-mission if you try hard enough." So what can we do? SophieWilder
20:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well my gutting of the quantum computing article went unopposed, so perhaps the folks who were dead set on this change aren't around anymore? I could see the idea of a reference space being useful if a group of articles all drew on the same concept. For example, a page briefly outlining quantum mechanics and then linking elsewhere for details (outsourcing, if you will) could be useful if we had a whole spectrum of quantum woo articles. Then again, that only becomes relevant if it's really a concern to have the same brief reference appear on multiple pages. - GrantC (talk) 20:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty damn sure that a whole lot of the articles Bob mentioned would be deleted with virtually zero opposition. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 20:29, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- So would anyone be terribly upset if over the next few weeks I started doing this with the articles within my area of expertise (physics in general and quantum mechanics specifically)? Some of those articles are a bit of a mess as it stands... - GrantC (talk) 22:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- With the possible exception of short stubs, bring it up on the talk pages of the relevant articles before taking action, & use the delete/mission templates as normal. You can't assume everyone is aware of this discussion & OK with it based on a few people agreeing here. Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:09, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well yes, I was planning to follow procedure as normal. If there's no interest here in this kind of thing, however, I'm not going to bother wasting time doing it. - GrantC (talk) 23:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Since this discussion started, I've toyed with the idea of going on a random page deletionist rampage. No, not deleting random pages, but using that button to pull up pages for evaluation, and being somewhat peremptory about deleting the ones that obviously don't make the cut. "Obviously" to me, of course.
- That plan would include other editors caring enough to restore some of the deleted pages, and me not wheel warring in those cases. Since it resembles a "kill 'em all and let FSM sort them out" scheme, I've let it simmer in the back of me mind without taking action. Still, it seems like one way to approach the issue. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well yes, I was planning to follow procedure as normal. If there's no interest here in this kind of thing, however, I'm not going to bother wasting time doing it. - GrantC (talk) 23:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- With the possible exception of short stubs, bring it up on the talk pages of the relevant articles before taking action, & use the delete/mission templates as normal. You can't assume everyone is aware of this discussion & OK with it based on a few people agreeing here. Wëäŝëïöïď
- So would anyone be terribly upset if over the next few weeks I started doing this with the articles within my area of expertise (physics in general and quantum mechanics specifically)? Some of those articles are a bit of a mess as it stands... - GrantC (talk) 22:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty damn sure that a whole lot of the articles Bob mentioned would be deleted with virtually zero opposition. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 20:29, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well my gutting of the quantum computing article went unopposed, so perhaps the folks who were dead set on this change aren't around anymore? I could see the idea of a reference space being useful if a group of articles all drew on the same concept. For example, a page briefly outlining quantum mechanics and then linking elsewhere for details (outsourcing, if you will) could be useful if we had a whole spectrum of quantum woo articles. Then again, that only becomes relevant if it's really a concern to have the same brief reference appear on multiple pages. - GrantC (talk) 20:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've kept on about having reference:space over the years, for general science or history articles, only to be met with "what's the harm?" or "everything can be on-mission if you try hard enough." So what can we do? SophieWilder
- I'm inclined to agree. I'm going to steer clear of comments about politics, but many of our articles on physics concepts are entirely unnecessary. Even worse, many of them are horribly outdated, and thus aren't even necessarily correct anymore. A while back on a discussion about our quantum computing article, I suggested an idea for handling hard science concepts that I think we could reasonably adopt. For articles on hard science woo, we could open with a short paragraph briefly outlining the actual science, with a reference to another source (Wikipedia is usually a decent for that, seeing as many other scientific sources are behind paywalls). This is what I did with our quantum consciousness article when it briefly mentioned Penrose and Hameroff's crazy mind quantum computing hypothesis. I think this also adds an additional benefit, in that the categories could be cleaned up a bit more to make it easier to find related content. Right now a lot of our science articles are hard to find, and there are even a few that are linked to from only a single isolated page. Thoughts? - GrantC (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is so much of the stuff. Most of Category:Fundamental particles, Category:Countries, Category:United States states, and probably not much of Category:Language have much do do with the core mission. And that's just off the top of my head.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 15:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Start with the stubs. Let's not casually destroy anything someone worked hard on. That should preferably be relegated to user space, to avoid any drama.--"Shut up, Brx." 21:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree with some of what is being said here. There is a lot of our content that isn't on-mission and wouldn't be on-mission even if the mission changed to reflect what I advocated above. I'd favor cutting our articles on countries and science concepts and the like.
I feel like there's a misunderstanding about what I've proposed. I am not advocating that we start taking positions on every political issue, nor that we become uniformly left-wing. I am advocating that we counter lies, misinformation, bad analyses and bad policies, in politics as in science. As I said above, sometimes someone in the political discourse makes an argument that is simply wrong and ought to be thoroughly debunked with reference to the facts. Wikipedia must remain politically neutral so it can't fulfill this function, and Politifact and other organizations like that seem to be more concerned with appearing unbiased (by criticizing right and left exactly 50% of the time each) than with actually being unbiased (by basing their rulings on facts). That leaves RW as the only site I can think of that would take on this role. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Let me give another example of something that would be "on-mission" if my reworking of the mission were put into effect. I recently came across an article wherein Bill O'Reilly criticized the parents of a transgender child (female-to-male) for putting him on hormone blockers, saying that it violated his "informed consent." This is simply ignorant of the facts that transgender children have to receive information and be evaluated by psychologists before they can receive such treatment, so obviously he had already given informed consent. When I see people making political arguments that are clearly based on known falsehoods, it really pisses me off. This isn't scientific, and I agree that as it stands now, the mission doesn't cover this. But it is a simple matter of what is true and what is not. It is an indisputable fact that the child gave informed consent. It is an indisputable fact that O'Reilly's position is based on falsehoods. These are the sorts of topics that I feel we should be taking on. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
It also occurs to me that if there are enough people who agree with my characterization of politics but disagree that we at RW should be taking it on, perhaps the answer would be to start another website, one that does for politics what RW does for science and religion. Thoughts? Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- The problem I see with this very worthy idea is the very problem I see with RW at present -- mission creep. What you describe has a strong potential to become "someoneiswrongontheinternet.com," and thereby losing the valuable stuff (like a prominent TV commentator being not even wrong in his analysis of a high-stakes issue, as you describe) in a sea of people complaining about bloggers, vloggers, fringe websites, etc. etc. etc...I've been here in one guise or another since the website was a months-old baby, and I wish that way back in the summer of 07, we had throttled the desire to fill the site with partisan analyses and social science/humanities oriented targets, and kept a strong focus on pseudoscience/woo sort of stuff. The place might be less fun that way, but it would have a clear focus and do one thing really well, as opposed to a bunch of things kinda half-assed. But I'm repeating myself. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
23:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I blame Trent for putting the "authoritarian" part in the mission statement as that is what a lot of the politics seems to fall under.
ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.
23:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Or, more specifically, it falls under what certain pinkos defined as "authoritarian" in order to fudge over the fact that communist countries always manage to become authoritarian. Look at the linguistic gymnastics employed by Bob Altemeyer, referring to people with certain psychological traits as "right-wing authoritarians" even though he was forced to admit that quite a significant number of them are not right-wing.
ListenerXTalkerX 03:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- That's not actually what Altemeyer says. Altemeyer takes very great care to inform the reader of his works that when he's referring to "right-wing authoritarians", that does not correlate to the popular conception of The Right in American politics. The political definition of "right wing" is different from the academic definition thereof. Communism-Leninism may be a part of the political Left, but it has practically always formed a right-wing authoritarian hierarchy, as opposed to a left-wing leaderless/anarchical structure.
- This actually highlights what I would be concerned about in gutting the political articles; deletion done by editors who don't have a firm grasp of the concepts being discussed (and actually referred to in the articles thereof). --Castaigne (talk) 15:40, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- ...may be a part of the political Left, but it has practically always formed a right-wing authoritarian hierarchy. Yes, left-wing organizations are right-wing, freedom is slavery, etc., etc. I would suggest that you investigate exactly which academics re-defined "right-wing" as "favoring the use of leaders."
ListenerXTalkerX 07:57, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- If you investigated, you would find out that this has been the practical political science consensus for over 30 years now. You can talk about supposed leftists moving the goalposts to suit themselves, but we do ourselves no favors in ignoring current academics for what we "feel" should be correct. If you have a problem with popular versus academic definitions, then it would seem you also have a problem with popular versus legal definitions, which have the exact same qualities.
- So, to get down to brass tacks, unless you have a specific reason why consensus in political science should be ignored that isn't based on personal opinion alone, deal with it and move on. Write an essay on the subject. Present some data. But your own opinion don't impress. --Castaigne (talk) 13:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I do not, in general, have a problem with the use of jargon in technical contexts — I use it in my own work — but very few of the technical terms I have come in contact with could be confused in the least with popular terms describing the same thing (e.g., the political spectrum) in a different way.
- On the other hand, these sort of technical terms are excellent for use in equivocation, which Prof. Altemeyer seems to employ quite a bit, if as you claim he is actually using "right-wing" in the political-science sense. He himself says he is using it in the "psychological" sense, apparently based on a false etymology using an Old English word meaning "lawful."
- As to the "supposed leftists" who got their sticky fingers into the definitions, just look at the chief influence on Prof. Altemeyer's work. It was no political scientist, but Theodor W. Adorno, who identified openly as a communist and was criticized for producing an "authoritarian personality" scale that did not even pretend to include left-wing authoritarians; even Prof. Altemeyer acknowledged that most of that work was bunk.
ListenerXTalkerX 08:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- LX, are you seriously re-arguing a three and a half year old argument in which you went down in flames and didn't even realize it? Come. On. EVDebs (talk) 02:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- Would you be able to point me to this argument so that I can know exactly what points he is going to make and thus determine whether it's worth my time to invest in rebuttal? I'd appreciate it. --Castaigne (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- Never mind. Found it. Yup, not worth it. --Castaigne (talk) 04:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- I had forgotten about that argument myself. One very interesting point that EVDebs made during it was that Prof. Altemeyer's book was a "popular" text, thus absolving it from the need to be peer-reviewed. What does that do for your "he's using the technical language of political science" argument?
ListenerXTalkerX 05:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
- Not a damn thing, because his popular work The Authoritarians was taken from his scholarly works Right-Wing Authoritarianism, The Authoritarian Specter, and related essay Authoritarian Aggression. Of course, The Authoritarians is a hell of a lot easier to find since he made it free on the web, but you can get a hold of the other two and examine his empirical work if you go through an Inter-Library Loan with a university. Or you can contact him directly; he's very approachable and usually very happy to share his empirical research on the subject of authoritarianism with others, even lay people...though it can be daunting, since he's been researching it since 1966. Be prepared to wade. --Castaigne (talk) 08:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
- I had forgotten about that argument myself. One very interesting point that EVDebs made during it was that Prof. Altemeyer's book was a "popular" text, thus absolving it from the need to be peer-reviewed. What does that do for your "he's using the technical language of political science" argument?
- LX, are you seriously re-arguing a three and a half year old argument in which you went down in flames and didn't even realize it? Come. On. EVDebs (talk) 02:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- ...may be a part of the political Left, but it has practically always formed a right-wing authoritarian hierarchy. Yes, left-wing organizations are right-wing, freedom is slavery, etc., etc. I would suggest that you investigate exactly which academics re-defined "right-wing" as "favoring the use of leaders."
- Thank you. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Wait, wasn't Human the one who thought up the "authoritarian" part? --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 03:17, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Don't blame me, nope. ħuman
04:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Don't blame me, nope. ħuman
- Or, more specifically, it falls under what certain pinkos defined as "authoritarian" in order to fudge over the fact that communist countries always manage to become authoritarian. Look at the linguistic gymnastics employed by Bob Altemeyer, referring to people with certain psychological traits as "right-wing authoritarians" even though he was forced to admit that quite a significant number of them are not right-wing.
- I blame Trent for putting the "authoritarian" part in the mission statement as that is what a lot of the politics seems to fall under.
- A few thoughts. Some of the problem may flow from questions as to how to organize the material. Would you prefer to have an article about Alphabets, or a series of articles about Korean nationalistic claims of the origin of writing, Hindu nationalistic claims.....? The "encyclopedia style" subject simply struck me as a way to organize a set of material that I thought to be reasonably on-mission: legendary claims about the origin of writing, claims that it all came from Atlantis, a set of very similar nationalistic claims that say "ours was independently invented"; and I cribbed a list of undeciphered scripts because I consider them to be crank magnets.
- Second, about hard sciences versus social sciences. I doubt that historical linguistics is a "hard science", but what I can tell you is that there are dozens of people out there promoting eccentric theories that are firmly and knowably wrong. (And usually Basque is involved. Would that Larry Trask were still alive.) I suspect this is so for others as well. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 01:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Just a thought which I don't know is feasible, but I note that a growing number of articles have a High/Medium/Low importance template on them. I wonder if there's some way to limit Random Page to only choose from the medium and high importance articles, based on templates, and thus limit the number of avenues for people to get to low/no importance articles and save folks the work of going 'round and deleting them? Between that and only putting Med/High articles on the front page or public pages means that most of the current cruft can languish in obscurity, maybe getting taken care of when one ends up in Recent Changes but without need for a purge. --Kels (talk) 03:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Your princess is in Trent's castle, not in this one. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 03:17, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Article priority templates are only used by about three or four people. Regarding them as any kind of reliable indicator of priority is a really bad idea. Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Article priority templates are only used by about three or four people. Regarding them as any kind of reliable indicator of priority is a really bad idea. Wēāŝēīōīď
A Big Idea for contracting the mission
The original four-point mission statement was almost certainly thrown together at the spur of the moment. It isn't our Ten Commandments, and really ought to be scrapped completely in favor of something less broad.
Perhaps in favor of something like this for our public-facing pages:
| RationalWiki is a resource for refuting pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, and pseudohistory, as well as documenting the major figures who promote such things. In addition, it provides some tools for building critical thinking skills. |
And an addendum to it on community policy pages that goes like this:
| RationalWiki is not a general encyclopedia and does not contain articles on every state, historical event or figure, or blogger you find interesting. Nor is it a dumping ground for refutations of every political party, politician, policy, or religion that you disagree with. |
Admittedly I just did the same thing Trent did way back and threw this together in about half an hour. Nonetheless, while it's rough, these two statements have a few major advantages over our current mission statement. Namely, it lets the reader know exactly where our strengths are (unlike the nebulous and unhelpful "authoritarianism and how it's handled in the media" bit we currently have). It's purposefully inclusive enough that all our major articles fall under it — all our creationism and medical woo articles are included, but so are otherwise important pages like Freemen on the land (via pseudolaw) and David Barton (via pseudohistory).
It's also explicitly exclusive. Every article on a state, country, political party, politician, pissant internet celebrity, or political/economic policy that random editors happen to not like is gone. It's radical and painful, but heavens does it eliminate an enormous amount of cruft and garbage — and forces us to focus on the stuff we're actually good at.
Radioactive Misanthrope 01:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Question! Given that communism purports to be a "scientific" philosophy, would it fall under the "pseudoscience" banner?
ListenerXTalkerX 02:22, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Man, you went straight for the kill.
- I don't know. Maybe? I'm unfamiliar with the scientific claims of communism. If they do, then a communism article on RW would specifically address those claims, while excising all the crappy Wikipedia-esque stuff that's on the current page. People know Wikipedia exists, it's okay for us to say "we're won't cover everything, that's what Wikipedia is for". We don't need a collection of other people's opinions on it, or several paragraphs on its history, or to cover the endless debate of whether it works or not, or several paragraphs on its derivatives. We should address any specific historical and scientific claims and leave it at that.
Radioactive Misanthrope 03:03, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- And that defines the whole debate right here. "Refuting pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, and pseudohistory" always has a political aspect to it. Osaka Sun (talk) 03:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- (EC) I actually agree with the proposal, but I felt it was necessary to give a preview of things to come as editors (myself probably included) would try to shoehorn pet peeves into the scope of the new mission.
- As to communism, no less a figure than Karl Popper pegged it as a pseudoscience, and its economic theories are now considered "heterodox economics," like the Austrian School.
- To my mind, the only time the refutation of pseudoscience, etc. has a political aspect is if some politician or "social activist" is promoting pseudoscience as part of their agenda. Refuting the claims of "Flat Earthers," for example, does not have much of a political aspect.
ListenerXTalkerX 03:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Until they start to pressure the Ministry of Education for equal time in the geography textbooks. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
03:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Has that happened?
ListenerXTalkerX 03:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- It has with their creationist brethren. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
03:50, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and that, you see, is the crucial reason why going after creationists has a political aspect, while going after Flat Earthers does not.
ListenerXTalkerX 03:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Did you have your sense of humour surgically removed, or did they do it with some sort of pharmaceutical regimen? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
03:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Communists seized it on behalf of the people.
Radioactive Misanthrope 04:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Communists seized it on behalf of the people.
- Did you have your sense of humour surgically removed, or did they do it with some sort of pharmaceutical regimen? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- Yes, and that, you see, is the crucial reason why going after creationists has a political aspect, while going after Flat Earthers does not.
- It has with their creationist brethren. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- Has that happened?
- Until they start to pressure the Ministry of Education for equal time in the geography textbooks. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- And that defines the whole debate right here. "Refuting pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, and pseudohistory" always has a political aspect to it. Osaka Sun (talk) 03:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well done, RM! Here, have an Internet. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 03:17, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Should the atheist and anti-theist interests of the site be mentioned in there? I'm not sure it's fairly covered by pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, and pseudohistory, but I foresee a stink if we start removing the material, which I mostly don't object to as a believer.
I am always in favor of moving gently rather than forcefully, and slowly rather than abruptly, but that's just me. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Now this proposal just seems to cut too much to me. Just looking through our cover articles I find several that would seem not to fall within the new mission: Same-sex marriage, Poe's Law, New Age (the article is in "Category:Pseudoscience" but that seems specious to me considering that New Agers generally don't even pretend to be scientific), Birth control, and Citizendium. Are we to cut all of these gold-level articles from the wiki? Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 06:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- An article on Citizendium does not advance our mission quite so much as our ability to gloat at Larry Sanger. As to the New Age article, New Agers routinely abuse psychology and quantum mechanics, to name just two scientific/medical disciplines.
ListenerXTalkerX 06:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- My point in saying this was that RM's proposal would cut out a lot more of our core content than I think we're acknowledging. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 06:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- The CZ did advance our mission. After all, it is/was a platform for cranks and shysters. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 15:17, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I think that RA's suggestion has merit. I would also like to suggest that the content of all our articles should be at least 80% mission-related. All to often I have seen an article created and then justified by a single sentence or paragraph related to the site's objectives.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 09:18, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- 80% is a rather arbitrary figure. Articles like the RationalWiki Atheism FAQ for the Newly Deconverted would need to be moved to essay space because of this threshold. Nullahnung (talk) 11:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- In that case I would say either (a) so be it or (b) redefine the mission so as to make it acceptable. Which is really what the debate is about. Surely asking that 80% of article content fits in with what we are supposed to be doing is not too much to ask?--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 11:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Nullahnung (talk) 11:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Is Same-sex marriage 80% or more on-mission? Should we delete it if it doesn't meet that threshold? Does it matter that the article is (by virtue of being a cover article) supposed to represent the best of what we produce? Does anyone else see a discrepancy between the RW we put forth in editing (expansive and inclusive) and the RW we supposedly advocate (slim and lean, talking about few topics very thoroughly)? Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 11:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly, its always been my thought that if something is well written, thought provoking and funny, that makes it far more useful and serving then anything that conforms to some nebulous "mission". Most people I've shown the place to stick around because of the humor, and not because of some focus that never really existed. Slashing and burning most of the site for it seem deeply counter productive. I mean, if you want Wikipedia, just go to Wikipedia. --Revolverman (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think where pseudo-law and pseudo-history mesh the current mission is that they are forms of denialism in that they deny a large body of well established research for illegitimate reasons. If anything, I would alter the first point to say, "Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience, anti-science, and denialism" (is there one anti-science movement?). (In some ways, item 2 incorporates this, but "crank" could be interpreted in many ways. Item 4 is probably superfluous, but ultimately is harmless.) I would rid of the third bullet, although some of those ideas come out naturally from pseudoscience and denialism.
talk 13:02, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- 50% mission content within a page is probably a more realistic target than 80%. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 14:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- 50% mission content within a page is probably a more realistic target than 80%. Wėąṣėḷőįď
- I think where pseudo-law and pseudo-history mesh the current mission is that they are forms of denialism in that they deny a large body of well established research for illegitimate reasons. If anything, I would alter the first point to say, "Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience, anti-science, and denialism" (is there one anti-science movement?). (In some ways, item 2 incorporates this, but "crank" could be interpreted in many ways. Item 4 is probably superfluous, but ultimately is harmless.) I would rid of the third bullet, although some of those ideas come out naturally from pseudoscience and denialism.
- Honestly, its always been my thought that if something is well written, thought provoking and funny, that makes it far more useful and serving then anything that conforms to some nebulous "mission". Most people I've shown the place to stick around because of the humor, and not because of some focus that never really existed. Slashing and burning most of the site for it seem deeply counter productive. I mean, if you want Wikipedia, just go to Wikipedia. --Revolverman (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Is Same-sex marriage 80% or more on-mission? Should we delete it if it doesn't meet that threshold? Does it matter that the article is (by virtue of being a cover article) supposed to represent the best of what we produce? Does anyone else see a discrepancy between the RW we put forth in editing (expansive and inclusive) and the RW we supposedly advocate (slim and lean, talking about few topics very thoroughly)? Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 11:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Nullahnung (talk) 11:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- In that case I would say either (a) so be it or (b) redefine the mission so as to make it acceptable. Which is really what the debate is about. Surely asking that 80% of article content fits in with what we are supposed to be doing is not too much to ask?--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 11:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- One possible problem I see if RW's scope were to be limited to countering and refuting pseudo-stuff is with religion-related articles. Not all of them are directly about pseudo-stuff. Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ, for example, is about a valid historical controversy. Most of the ahistoricists/mythers are cranks (promoting ideas such as Christianity as a Roman conspiracy to subjugate the Jews, but this isn't what the article addresses!), while those arguing for historicity are not generally cranks, but include lots of serious scholars. Nevertheless, the case for historicity is weaker than Wikipedia acknowledges, and the case for ahistoricity can be said to be at least somewhat stronger, if only implicitly (by virtue of the weakness of the case for historicity). Paradoxically, the cranks may well have the right basic idea here (it sure seems so) and the mainstream historicists overstate their case. Since, however, Wikipedia is biased in favour of the historicist view because it is mainstream, and ahistoricity is fringe (but not pseudohistory at all, at least not in all of its forms; the general idea is sound), RationalWiki's commentary is much needed. A strict interpretation of missionality would, however, require that Jesus-historicity-stuff be removed, which very few people here would be OK with, I think. --84.151.165.59 (talk) 00:34, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- If it came to it, I would be interested in a new political Wiki but support it being kept in a narrow manner; I like the humorous approach RW takes and consider political extremism and crankery a good fit --Barryjon (talk) 04:15, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Wait, stop if you've heard this before. Most of the people in this debate have legitimate points in their arguments if they're trying to be serious. We must become serious towards what is a serious issue, but not overly serious. If we can agree on something, it will be for the better. However, I am not calling for the end of the debate. We must work until those with serious,reasonable viewpoints are heard.--The Madman (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
- If it came to it, I would be interested in a new political Wiki but support it being kept in a narrow manner; I like the humorous approach RW takes and consider political extremism and crankery a good fit --Barryjon (talk) 04:15, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Too many contributors, obviously
Too many people are participating in RationalWiki! We must remove them.
Making the site unreliable was not sufficient. We must, instead, disgust them off. Make them never want to bother with this mob of fuckwits again.
There are many excellent ideas above, but I'm sure you can list more below. - David Gerard (talk) 11:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Lol! The most excellent David Gerard nails it. ħuman
04:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Lol! The most excellent David Gerard nails it. ħuman
- What exactly is your point? Minus the sarcasm, please. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 11:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've been watching this thread since it started and haven't been able to put my feelings into words. David G expresses them excellently. Folk jumping on newbies with cries of "OFF MISSION!" is no way to encourage new contributors. A lot of stuff is 'off mission', the site could easily be pared down to half its current size but then who would take a second glance? If RW is going to be purely a reference site then go that way but if you want a 'community' then relax and let the sacred mission expand.
- Oh and you'd better remove the snark as well as tightening the mission - not very "rational" is it? </sarcasm> Scream!! (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- There are certainly too many people to solve this issue through discussion. Not that I'm entirely sure what "this issue" even is.
bomination 13:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm generally on the "don't touch the current mission statement" camp, but I'll take some exception to this. A lot of the "snark" is gratuitous, not especially funny and goes against the site's purpose (the spirit, not the letter of the mission statement). Especially the kind of slap-on "snark" added in a drive-by by another user. OsakaSun, for example, is especially guilty of this (all those piped links...).--ZooGuard (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bad writing is a separate issue - David Gerard (talk) 15:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I say this with the acknowledgement that I am not well-educated in the hard sciences. If we removed politics entirely from RW's purview, I would stop editing -not out of spite, rather there'd be little for me to write about. I think our page on Authoritarianism needs more work, it could give people a good idea of what would actually be on-mission, and we could use it as a better yardstick to determine what political articles should stay. --TheLateGatsby (The end of the dock ) 15:39, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've neglected to speak on the topic of politics so far, but I'm of the opinion that there do exist political ideas that fall within the mission. As someone who is well-educated in the hard sciences, however, many of our science articles are, well, useless glut. They're often written at a level that tries to be accessible, and the result is a bunch of rambling screeds about certain topics that barely scratch the surface (certainly not enough to give any real information), are still often too complex to be grasped by folks with no scientific background, and usually contain some hand-wavey "oh yeah, here's where this relates to woo". Unlike articles on politics, our articles on science can easily be wrong (and some of them are, expressing fairly outmoded theories that have since advanced). There clearly aren't enough scientists here to fix these issues now, so what do we do about it? I think paring them down is the best answer, and I'm confident we can do so in a way that still maintains their usefulness and doesn't destroy information. - GrantC (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I say this with the acknowledgement that I am not well-educated in the hard sciences. If we removed politics entirely from RW's purview, I would stop editing -not out of spite, rather there'd be little for me to write about. I think our page on Authoritarianism needs more work, it could give people a good idea of what would actually be on-mission, and we could use it as a better yardstick to determine what political articles should stay. --TheLateGatsby (The end of the dock ) 15:39, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bad writing is a separate issue - David Gerard (talk) 15:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- There are certainly too many people to solve this issue through discussion. Not that I'm entirely sure what "this issue" even is.
Just got a notice from someone whose name sounds like the lyrics to a Stevie Nicks song, directing me here. I don't see a WP-style "I agree with Opinion Leader X" option so I figured I would say hi in this section, for whatever that's worth. Justbrowsing (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Keeping science articles
Someone above suggested getting rid of articles on legitimate science, since they didn't fall under the mission statement. I feel that we should keep them, and perhaps change the mission statement to include articles on legitimate science, and perhaps an explanation of said sciences.
Realistically, almost everyone here has referenced a RationalWiki article to refute and debunk some crank ideas.... however, if the person has no knowledge of the subject in the first place, it's difficult to come to a rational position on said subject. As such, I think we should keep (but definitely clean up and update) science articles to better inform people so they are aware of the conventional views of particular sciences in the first place.
In fact, I envision RationalWiki as so much more than just a site that refutes bullshit claims and their pundits, but rather I see it as a potential well of information on all things scientific, evidence based, and rational (this includes subjects outside of just science, obviously). Gone are the days when we were just essentially a Conservapedia trolling site, as we have developed into so much MORE, and something greater. We've already been referenced by several prominent sites who trusted our expertise on several subjects, and have introduced critical thinking to several people who would of never otherwise heard of our site, or thought outside of their worldviews. If we continue to post articles on science and other such things, our influence will grow, and help expand rationality, knowledge, and critical thinking, along with prominent sites coming to view us as an excellent resource. TokenSkepticMagician talk 22:18 January 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Just for the record, TSM's first edit was in August 2013, so they were probably not around when "we" "were just essentially a Conservapedia trolling site".--ZooGuard (talk) 13:48, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- We were NEVER a CP "trolling site". Get over it, please. ħuman
04:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- We were NEVER a CP "trolling site". Get over it, please. ħuman
- Nope. Not even a little bit. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
04:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Who cares? Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 13:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Who cares? Wèàšèìòìď
The counterargument, already made multiple times on this page, is that this would be trying to do what Wikipedia already does better than we can ever do. Weaseloid
Methinks it is a Weasel 13:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- ...due to the vast difference in popularity/well-known-ness and in the size and qualifications of the user base. Wikipedia already fills the "general knowledge encyclopedia" niche. Citizendium is a case study in what happens when you try to "re-do Wikipedia, but a little bit different". At the moment, RationalWiki is supposed to be striving to fill a different, more specialized niche.--ZooGuard (talk) 14:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- "At the moment, RationalWiki is supposed to be striving to fill a different, more specialized niche." What niche is that?: the one that contains articles on tiny Caribbean nations, the history of the development of Indo-European languages, criticisms of campaigns to limit the power of organized labour and studies of 19th-century European cultural movements. What niche encompasses all those things? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
14:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Token, what exactly do you think we can do here in terms of writing a general science article that Wikipedia doesn't? What specific contribution can we make to the field of enhancing a general understanding of science that isn't being done somewhere else? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
13:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- (EC)I'm not Token, but one thing Wikipedia doesn't really do and RationalWiki could do is to promote science topics and their nature to the general public in a condensed form with reference to significance and how they relate to other topics (commentary style). Wikipedia is more there to give an overview of topics with all the detail (encyclopedia style). Nullahnung (talk) 14:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- The coverage of straight science is necessary as background material for some articles. I think keeping many as support articles would be fine if we explain their relevance to other articles in the article itself, or integrate them into the pseudoscience-related article. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Essentially I think what Nullahnung was saying is a good idea, although if people want to do an expansive, informative article on a particular subject, I'm certainly for that as well. TokenSkepticMagician talk 0:17 January 11th, 2014 (UTC)
- Many of the science articles in WP are too technical for most people to understand, and that's why woo and pseudoscience spreads. Perhaps we can write straight science articles, but in simpler language. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 15:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- WP does have "introdction to..." articles where the main one is too technical. Or science stuff could go there. SophieWilder
18:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I like the idea of linking there. What I see as part of the problem is two-fold: 1) Many of our science articles are also too technical for most people to understand, and 2) some scientific topics simply can't be explained in layman's terms so easily. Most misunderstandings about quantum mechanics or electromagnetic theory, for example, would not be solved with some more simple article. - GrantC (talk) 18:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- WP does have "introdction to..." articles where the main one is too technical. Or science stuff could go there. SophieWilder
- Sometimes just the topic of a science article is on-mission, e.g. evolution-related articles - David Gerard (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- The coverage of straight science is necessary as background material for some articles. I think keeping many as support articles would be fine if we explain their relevance to other articles in the article itself, or integrate them into the pseudoscience-related article. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- (EC)I'm not Token, but one thing Wikipedia doesn't really do and RationalWiki could do is to promote science topics and their nature to the general public in a condensed form with reference to significance and how they relate to other topics (commentary style). Wikipedia is more there to give an overview of topics with all the detail (encyclopedia style). Nullahnung (talk) 14:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Token, what exactly do you think we can do here in terms of writing a general science article that Wikipedia doesn't? What specific contribution can we make to the field of enhancing a general understanding of science that isn't being done somewhere else? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- "At the moment, RationalWiki is supposed to be striving to fill a different, more specialized niche." What niche is that?: the one that contains articles on tiny Caribbean nations, the history of the development of Indo-European languages, criticisms of campaigns to limit the power of organized labour and studies of 19th-century European cultural movements. What niche encompasses all those things? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- Electromagnetism and Quaoar have short notes on associated woo, for extra missiony goodness - David Gerard (talk) 15:16, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Again, I see the problem basically as being one of how to organize the material. A RW article ought to be chiefly about debunking various wonderlore topics. On the other hand, the large, coherent, and neatly packaged woo subjects like astrology are relatively scarce. A lot of relevant material is quite simply going to attach itself to something else entirely. Basque language would not appear to be a promising subject for a RW article: but, in fact, there are all sorts of stuff (e.g. Basque is the surviving speech of the Neanderthals. Basque is the liturgical language of the secret pagan witch cult) that seems obviously on topic here. It seems to me that we obviously need Basque language as well, just because I think it would be better to deal with these subjects on an easily searched title rather than devote separate articles to all the separate theories. This is what I've been trying to do in articles like Sanskrit and alphabet. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 16:05, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- +1 - David Gerard (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Again, I see the problem basically as being one of how to organize the material. A RW article ought to be chiefly about debunking various wonderlore topics. On the other hand, the large, coherent, and neatly packaged woo subjects like astrology are relatively scarce. A lot of relevant material is quite simply going to attach itself to something else entirely. Basque language would not appear to be a promising subject for a RW article: but, in fact, there are all sorts of stuff (e.g. Basque is the surviving speech of the Neanderthals. Basque is the liturgical language of the secret pagan witch cult) that seems obviously on topic here. It seems to me that we obviously need Basque language as well, just because I think it would be better to deal with these subjects on an easily searched title rather than devote separate articles to all the separate theories. This is what I've been trying to do in articles like Sanskrit and alphabet. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 16:05, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, a key example of what I was talking about is Quantum mechanics. Wander in there, and then follow the other links that wander around the related topics, and you'll find a mess of articles all over the place. In the QM article alone, there's very little of substance (that Wikipedia doesn't do better) up until the "Problems with interpretations" heading. Then there's our article on Quantum collapse, which effectively rehashes the QM article in a more complicated form, and has even less connection to our woo articles. I mean hell, check the "What links here" section on the quantum collapse page. A single woo article links there, and then a bunch of articles about other quantum mechanics phenomena (that are all general information and not woo-related at all). Should we delete the quantum mechanics article? No. A lot of legitimate woo stuff links there. Should we condense it down so that we can explain all of our quantum mechanics related theory on that one page, and then offload the rest to Wikipedia or external sources? I think so. The space of articles on QM alone is large, unwieldy, and difficult to navigate on the wiki. Keeping them all up to date and relevant would be a monumental task, and judging by the fact that only a few people have edited any of them in the last year, I would wager that's not going to happen at this current stage. That's why I think we should cut them down; the alternative seems to be leaving up a whole bunch of relatively irrelevant often out-dated information. - GrantC (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- That's an editorial matter rather than a missionality matter - one where the correct answer is "go the hack" - David Gerard (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well it seems to be at least a bit of a missionality matter, since for many of those articles, the article after the hacking would end up being a blank page. I figured it was worth talking about in the theme of missionality, seeing as it fundamentally changes the landscape of a large part of the scientific article space. - GrantC (talk) 20:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Compare and contrast to X
A lot of times the science, and off mission articles on rational wiki have a structure of "as opposed to this woo here's a basic layman's understanding of article subject" and wikipedia doesn't reproduce that mechanism of considering things. A lot of times I'll pull up science articles on rationalwiki for the purposes of seeing what BS people say about it. It's not reasonable to toss off those jumping-off points. Ikanreed (talk) 15:11, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps: have 'here are the key points on topic X (with links to more indepth articles elsewhere) and here are the woo/more on-mission topics that lead off from it.' 171.33.222.26 (talk) 15:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- That was sort of the suggestion I made above. Keeping around a small, basic reference article for topics oft-mentioned, but offloading more detailed queries to Wikipedia or elsewhere. Also, there's a lot more "science glut" on this wiki than you might think; it's just that most of it is rarely linked to, and often doesn't come up in a search unless you're looking for them exactly. - GrantC (talk) 17:40, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I rather like this and the previous section. Having refutation articles with "simplified" science articles from a lay perspective as quick reference. Including articles on social sciences, of course, and in either case mainly from a quick understanding to back up the refutations/critical articles rather than the in-depth and sometimes impenetrable detail of many WP articles. Not only focused, but it keeps us from being a crappy version of WP plus saves us from necessarily deleting them wholesale. --Kels (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Basically 'sufficient information for the reader to know what the woo is in reaction to (and (link to source of all misinformation page). 171.33.222.26 (talk) 16:17, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- I rather like this and the previous section. Having refutation articles with "simplified" science articles from a lay perspective as quick reference. Including articles on social sciences, of course, and in either case mainly from a quick understanding to back up the refutations/critical articles rather than the in-depth and sometimes impenetrable detail of many WP articles. Not only focused, but it keeps us from being a crappy version of WP plus saves us from necessarily deleting them wholesale. --Kels (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
"[The] proposal would cut out a lot more of our core content than I think we're acknowledging"
- Have we explored the option of moving some of these articles into funspace (or, more formally, as TV Tropes does it, "Useful Notes")?
- If we intend to do this, the missionality/deletion process needs to be much faster than it currently is and involve more users than the typical 5-10 on talk pages. Osaka Sun (talk) 16:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- 5-10? There are people here who think that when three of them "vote" they can do anything they want. ħuman
04:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- If we want to get more votes on deletion proposals, we could institute a central page for deletion proposals, like Wikipedia does, instead of discussing it on the talk-page.
ListenerXTalkerX 05:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with this. Regardless of whether the mission changes or not, a central page for deletion votes is a fantastic idea. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- If we want to get more votes on deletion proposals, we could institute a central page for deletion proposals, like Wikipedia does, instead of discussing it on the talk-page.
- 5-10? There are people here who think that when three of them "vote" they can do anything they want. ħuman
Man is a political animal
And too often our politicians (I don't care which country you live in) come up with complete festering piles of bollocks with about as much evidence to support as e.g. young earth creationism. Crank ideas offered by e.g. George Osborne are every bit as much crank ideas as those offered by George Carey or worse yet Pat Robertson - and are also only taken more seriously because of authoritarianism. In fact the only reason crank ideas are relevant rather than rationalwiki being a simple exercise in mocking the afflicted is because of the political traction they can gain (e.g. with Andrew Wakefield). I therefore see no reason that politics is outside Wikipedia's remit as it currently stands.
I also see no reason to keep what was always a political site cooped up and defang one of the most likely aspects of importance. Neonchameleon (talk) 16:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- +1 - David Gerard (talk) 16:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- +2. Politics are often based on erroneous information (like the Florida drug-testing-welfare-recipients), and that's as worthy of fact-checking and debunking as much as anything else. If nothing else, articles like WWII and the like should be used as a statement of the facts and a place to correct common misconceptions about the war and its major players. --74.182.83.96 (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- +3 --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 19:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- +2. Politics are often based on erroneous information (like the Florida drug-testing-welfare-recipients), and that's as worthy of fact-checking and debunking as much as anything else. If nothing else, articles like WWII and the like should be used as a statement of the facts and a place to correct common misconceptions about the war and its major players. --74.182.83.96 (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Never going to have a united purpose or consensus on broader concepts
There's a lot of problems with specifically opening up our mission to general topics like politics: there are logically sound, and rational reasons to support a number of different concepts and ideas in politics. It's not like the missionality of RW stops the second we start talking politics... rather, it requires that politics be viewed under the same scope that we treat all other content: if it's bullshit, call it out.
I don't see any need to expand our topics to things like religion either... some parts of religion are total fucking bullshit: they are already within our mission. Other parts of religion are NOT within our mission, and do not deserve to be mocked. (A Christian who believes in an impersonal-ish god, that everything in the bible isn't literal, and that evolution and science can inform us more about reality than where it conflicts with the Bible.) Not all religion is bad, it just happens that the majority of it (and certainly the most vocal part of it) is.
Scientology is a religion that immediately fills all parts of our mission, and can be openly mocked outright, without expanding our mission to also cover religion.
The purpose of RW has always been: to call out bullshit, and to realize that some topics are done a disservice by treating crank ideas as if they deserved any recognition or weight. This is what RW does, and it can still be focused on that, and not have its mission expanded at all. — Unsigned, by: Eira / talk / contribs 2014-01-10T17:37:19
Gordian knot
Delete/de-mainspace any article that does not refute a pseudoscientific/legal/historical claim, attack a bad idea, or criticise a well-known person who supports such claims and ideas. What would we have left? SophieWilder
18:40, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think about 800 out of 8,000 articles? ħuman
04:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Random walk through potential mission space
It would be far more productive if people would suggest language that they want the mission to be (like above) so alternatives can be considered. Otherwise, it's nearly impossible to follow this conversation.
talk 18:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed. It seems to me that getting anything out of this chaos looks increasingly unlikely. But yes, proposals for alternative increased/decreased/improved mission statements along with clear indication about how they would be adhered to would be the way to go.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- This is exciting. I usually miss out on the discussions where a handful of editors, with outsized opinions, will agree on a seemingly specific yet practically nebulous mission for RW. Then, with mandate in hand, will march off to delete all of the articles that have been stuck in their personal intellectual craws. --Inquisitor (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Recent changes is your friend.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 21:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- This is exciting. I usually miss out on the discussions where a handful of editors, with outsized opinions, will agree on a seemingly specific yet practically nebulous mission for RW. Then, with mandate in hand, will march off to delete all of the articles that have been stuck in their personal intellectual craws. --Inquisitor (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Politics allowed, but only with data
Part of the reason I've been adding consumer issue-related articles to RW is because there are a lot of aspects of life that benefit from critical thinking and solid data. We're in the same territory now as Snopes and Politifact -- hell, Snopes cites us on the semi-regular. While I think it's sensible to avoid overt political endorsements, it's still a very smart idea to cover clear bullshit in politics, at least when we don't need to defer to the expertise of the more journalistically-oriented fact checkers. (Let's be honest -- even though Politifact has a clear bias towards the radical center/Washington Village types, they're still better at political journalism than 99% of us will ever be. And the Mikkelsons are just plain badass.) In addition, there's this problem that a lot of calls for "no politics" means "don't make me think about my prejudices". If you're going to ask for a reduction in political drama, you'd best make sure you're not trying to take the lazy way out. In addition, a common prejudice in the skeptical world is against soft science; that's one of those positions that's clearly wrong but hard to articulate why logically. IMHO (and I've said this before) the reason, again, is laziness -- social sciences in general deal with a lot of subjectivity, making for a much higher noise floor than hard sciences. That doesn't excuse us from evaluating the data; we have a lot more shoveling to do before we get to the important stuff, but it's still there.
I don't want to endorse endless political arguments, of course; all I'm saying is that if we have political articles, which we do, we should have data, which we usually do. If we don't have data, it's not on-mission. EVDebs (talk) 19:02, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think data is all that's needed to make someone think about a political ideology. I found the articles on libertarianism, anarchism and libertarianism thought provoking in a way that WP could not be for instance.--Barryjon (talk) 03:01, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Mobocracy approach
Since "what the RW mission is" obviously evades wide agreement and it can be argued that every article is its own special case, why not leave the mission statement alone, but establish an ongoing RationalWiki:To don't list poll page, much like the RationalWiki:To do list, except in reverse? Anyone could list an article they think is off mission/redundant/not needed and the community would get to vote it up or down. If downvoted to death, the article would be shunted off to some NOINDEX limbo for possible rework and resurrection at the RationalWiki:To do list. Mobocracy at its finest. Leuders (talk) 20:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Seconded.--The Madman (talk) 23:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
- +2 --Castaigne (talk) 13:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- But wait. I left out the part where the secret nude tribunal convenes on the waxing gibbous lunar phase. Leuders (talk) 00:02, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- And that part...changes....only the amount of clothing and secrecy.--The Madman (talk) 00:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
I like this. Since I prefer a wider interpretation of the mission, it would be more helpful to quantify what we shouldn't have rather than what we should have. The Moose (talk) 02:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I like this as well. I feel having the whole community actively participating in these kinds of decisions would avoid a lot of drama down the road. Warlord Fred♠♣♥♦ 03:18, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- ditto. I like the transfer for a while rather than just delete. Hamster (talk) 05:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes! I love the idea of the "To don't list". Spud (talk) 06:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Brilliant idea. Simply brilliant. Impurity is the secret Unite with thy oracle
06:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Brilliant idea. Simply brilliant. Impurity is the secret Unite with thy oracle
- Yes! I love the idea of the "To don't list". Spud (talk) 06:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
However, we need a group effort from this. If we merely let the "To Don't List" falter like it's counterpart, I fear that it too may become yet another effort that not enough users seemed to be exposed to. Checking the edit log, it hasn't been edited in a while. I'd suggest something like the below to be handed to new sysops.
Be sure to check out both the To do list and the [[Rationalwiki To Don't|To Don't lists!
Does it seem too...annoying? I'm sure I could think up a RW spin on it. --The Madman (talk) 18:08, 11 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
- From what I can tell, the present To Do list isn't faltering at all. In fact, by looking over the high number votes both positive and negative, you can get a really good feel for what topics a random snapshot of RW users consider on-mission, off mission, or just plain unimportant at the moment. It's relatively slow and it's not ruthlessly efficient. But that's what RW is. BTW, I don't think articles like Kansas "harm the brand", especially if they have a funny little twist or encourage a new way of looking at something. If anything, they help keep readers within the cuddly confines of RW and not running off to starchy old Wikipedia. But if the community really wants it gone, it would be off to noindex purgatory. Leuders (talk) 18:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, Leuders. I've jumped to judge from edits, as usual with a single-purpose encyclopedia. RationalWiki is not for your single purpose articles. The mission may be easy to see as supporting one clear-cut viewpoint, but it is not. Far too often do we forget how quickly Trent threw together RationalWiki 2.0.--The Madman (talk) 20:05, 12 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
Don't "fix" what isn't broken.
I feel perfectly fine with the mission as the statement is currently. If the sysops present a option that is in no way contracting the mission or over-expanding the mission, I will be perfectly fine. Besides, it is my opinion(Or observation through trolling.) that extremes in interpretation of the mission statement leads to conflict--The Madman (talk) 21:50, 10 January 2014 (UTC) The Madman
- We have sysops again/now? ħuman
04:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- isnt everyone a sysop ? Hamster (talk) 05:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not a sysop. Warlord Fred♠♣♥♦ 07:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- You are now. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:19, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not a sysop. Warlord Fred♠♣♥♦ 07:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- isnt everyone a sysop ? Hamster (talk) 05:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
It's All There In The Name
This is RationalWiki, and I've always thought of it as an antidote to irrational beliefs in general. As far as politics, what that would mean is that any position we espouse should be well-supported by actual data, with clear reasoning. Anything with no supporting data, or discrediting data, should be torn a new one. For example, economics is a subject that is subject to great debate, and anyone who thinks to have the definitive answer is fooling themselves. We should not write an article extolling Keynesian theory as the most valid school of thought, even though it arguably is. However, an article mocking supply-side economics, which is demonstrably bullshit, is completely justified. See the difference? --ShorinBJ (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Not really, I think that's part of the difficulty in drawing the line. I am in favour of keeping the political and economic stuff, snarking validly in any direction and encouraging people to think about the assumptions and basis of their positions is enough for me--Barryjon (talk) 03:18, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
My 2 Cents
Rationality is something that is not limited to the natural sciences. It is something that is only limited by our ambitions. We should expand to be a bit more political. This should not interfere with the other tenets of our mission, and it is no controversial or detrimental if we take a few steps. Perhaps we should scrutinize these articles more, and peer review each other's conclusions/edits on the talk page. Sites like Snopes, Politifact, Factcheck, etc are very useful for this kind of thing. When it comes to more complicated subjects like economics, we should do the same collaberation and review, but we should emphasize what they call on Lesswrong "instrumental" rationality as well- that is to say, what demonstrably works, and what doesn't. There are ways we could, as the Rationalwiki:websites says, "keep an eye on the loonies" in a similar way to what the SPLC and other similar orginizations do.P3A58NT86 04:14, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to agree. Though we should tread carefully on politics as if the site comes across as overtly biased in any political direction then that may turn people away from the site altogether which would be a greater loss imho--Barryjon (talk) 03:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
This Should be a Moderate Conservative Wiki
I'm a moderate conservative, and while I don't agree with Conservapedia, I don't like your intensely scientific and anti-freedom approach to writing. We should make this wiki god fearing; but not to the point where gay's are yelled at. Evolution and creationism should be genuinely debated to see which is right. Abortion and marijuana (cigarettes 2.0) should be criticized except in strictly limited medical and emotional cases. Finally, we should have a neo-con approach to war; but for at least loosely humanitarian purposes only (they threatened our honor, protecting an ally, e.t.c), never for oil. Finally, China is a commie piece of crap and should be considered a fake country until Taiwan takes over. I hope my opinions are used in creating the new and improved RationalWiki. God (not Allah or Richard Dawkins) bless the makers of this website. --24.229.153.221 (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- You're adorable. Thank you for your contributions to the conversation, BoN. Ochotona princepsnot a pokémon 05:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- As an actual moderate conservative, please McGod no. We need fewer official political positions, not more; and I do think that our current ones are (to cant obnoxiously) "problematic." - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 06:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I second Smerdis; the only consistent position we should take is being firmly pro-science. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I appreciate this BoN's contribution, it was meant to be humorous wasn't it? That said, I do have more genuine sympathy with Smerdis view. However I'd rather try to accommodate much of the existing political content (not incidentally the article that kicked this all off as it happens but ho hum).--Barryjon (talk) 03:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I second Smerdis; the only consistent position we should take is being firmly pro-science. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- As an actual moderate conservative, please McGod no. We need fewer official political positions, not more; and I do think that our current ones are (to cant obnoxiously) "problematic." - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 06:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I think that RationalWiki...
...Should definitely expand. It is so far the only wiki that I have read so far that deals with the whole "Science vs. pseudoscience" in a way that is both funny and accurate whilst not going overboard with philosophy or scientific terms. And even with it's articles do become long reads, they are still worth to go through.
I have been through other wikis (up to this point almost always as a lurker/anonymous user) and none have the degree of quality that this wiki this wiki does. To give two examples: Metapedia is an Eurocentric, faux-rationalist neo-facist compendium of trash (or, most often, edited Wikipedia articles). Liberapedia is a U.S.A.-centric social democrat site that, besides being almost a ghost town, is dedicated mostly to preaching social democracy. Neither of them succeeds at doing anything but being a tool for propaganda of their respective ideologies, and any attempt at discussion with them from a divergent/opposing viewpoint will be meet with ridicule or will simply be ignored.
RationalWiki has it's flaws, too. Sometimes articles are edited and they lose their previous mocking demeanor to take a more rigid one which, while still on-spot, does not make the amusing read they previously were. The focus of discussion of politics/society/etc. as well seems a tad too U.S.A.-centric, even when many the same topic could be easily be applicable to many countries (However, I do realize that the majority of you must be from the United States and as such many articles will deal with U.S.A.-specific figures... Such as Frep Phelps, for example).
Returning to my original statement, I think RationalWiki should cover a wider area. Not so wide that it begins competing with Wikipedia, but wide enough that it can cover areas which affect society as a whole or areas in which discerning pseudoscience from science can be of benefit.
P.S.: Your articles on Technocracy movement and The Venus Project are better than the ones at Wikipedia. --The1992Phoenix (talk) 06:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for the constructive criticism. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
It is my personal opinion that…
There is nothing to do with the Mission that needs to be drastically changed. We don't need to start purging the wiki of massive amounts of content, nor do we need to start taking articles in about everything under the sun. It works the way it is. Of course, some minor changes (refuting more than just pseudoscience, for example) would be fine with me, but I think that enforcing huge-arse changes would cause more harm than good. Impurity is the secret Unite with thy oracle
06:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- +1 Well said. --DamoHi 22:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Impurity is the secret Unite with thy oracle
00:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- +1^2--Barryjon (talk) 03:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm newish here, but I thought I should participate in the mobocracy in some way. I agree with the Messiah of Doom's statement here. For the most part, the only disappointment I tend to have with the site is the lack of snark in some articles. I occasionally find articles that don't seem like they belong, but why not address those articles individually, rather than make sweeping changes to the site as a whole? Perhaps the articles that don't seem like they fit can be fixed, rather than removed.Dowdicus (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Impurity is the secret Unite with thy oracle
RNS' opinion
There are huge problems that arise when we open our mission up to general topics like politics, not the least of which is that people will always have differences of opinion in some areas of politics that, from the standpoint of article tone, would not be so easily solved without risking our credibility. Our current mission is very sound and has worked for years, and I see no reason to change it. Back in the day, if there was a general issue that you wanted to discuss that didn't seem to fit into our mission, you wrote it as a debate or essay (depending how you wanted to go about the topic). Intrinsic to this is that people who flag an article for missionality or deletion should do a better job of researching said topic before trying to delete it. Could that article be improved to be on-mission? Is that article still being worked on? What do I know about this article's missionality? If the article is a crappy stub about something I know to be on-mission, will I restart the article if I delete it to start over? These are the common questions that should be asked before throwing up a deletion template.
Moreover, we need to ask ourselves why people are coming to RationalWiki and, to that, what our purpose is. Our purpose has always been (in a nutshell) to be an anti-pseudoscience, anti-crankery Wiki. If we divert ourselves from that and into areas, like politics, are we prepared to deal with the possible consequences? Having been around this Wiki for quite some time, I'd argue that we'd be biting off more than we intend to chew. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- The problem that I see with the current mission is that we have never actually followed it. Lots of our articles don't fit in it – and not just the crappy stubs, either, but good, thorough articles like Citizendium – unless we take a really broad view of the phrase "crank ideas," and the problem there is that everyone will end up with their own definition of that word. (And even then there are articles like the Atheism FAQ that still don't fit.) That's why I want to remove the "crank" part and replace it with a concise statement of what areas are open for investigation. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Citizendium is, actually, very on-mission, based on the fact that most of its "experts" are, in fact, cranks. If we want to refine the current mission, that's fine. But when we start leaving the areas that are our specialty, we risk our reputation. So far as good articles that may not exactly be on-mission go, I think it should be on a case-by-case basis. If, for example, the article is well-researched and, at least, comes within a few hairs of our mission, I see no reason to kill it. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- You could always just deal with politics/social affairs via a rational aproach, though. If a politician says that he trusts "naturophats" over medical science his statement is still trash and he is promoting trash, irrespectively of whatever he is a communist, nazi, libertarian, anarchist or-- you get the idea. Granted, not all cases are as clear-cut as the one I provided but generally speaking politicians are not an honest sort. --The1992Phoenix (talk) 10:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Ah ha, but here again, if it's eve close to being mission-worthy, we've tended to keep it around anyways simply because it is relevant to our mission. Michele Bachmann, for example, does not have an article because she is a politician. Rather, she has one because she is a politician who has said and done some very outrageous things that fall well within our mission. I'd imagine any other politician would be held to the same standard. Therefore, there is no need to revise our mission to cover something we already covered. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 16:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree about the risks re core purpose being diluted but I do think that some political ideologies have plenty of crankery of their own that are worthy of a rational, snarky POV and I don't see anywhere else really doing that in the way RW does that.--Barryjon (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Correct. But, does not our mission already cover said political crankery, or have I been missing something for the last 5 years? Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 03:55, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree about the risks re core purpose being diluted but I do think that some political ideologies have plenty of crankery of their own that are worthy of a rational, snarky POV and I don't see anywhere else really doing that in the way RW does that.--Barryjon (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Ah ha, but here again, if it's eve close to being mission-worthy, we've tended to keep it around anyways simply because it is relevant to our mission. Michele Bachmann, for example, does not have an article because she is a politician. Rather, she has one because she is a politician who has said and done some very outrageous things that fall well within our mission. I'd imagine any other politician would be held to the same standard. Therefore, there is no need to revise our mission to cover something we already covered. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 16:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
If we don't expand/limit the mission after this...
...Then can we please at the very least enforce it more seriously this time? For example, can anyone how about Language, Alphabet, Geography, or fucking Argentina are in any way or form relevant to our mission? As I expressed, even if no changes to the mission are made, we should at the very least, take it seriously. --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 16:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Part of the problem I see is that most editors don't seem to be interested in wandering about voicing their opinions on mission/deletion issues. Admittedly, I fall in that category as well, as I don't generally place a vote or add to the discussions if I don't feel I'm familiar enough with the topic to make a judgment. It's difficult to "enforce" the mission under these circumstances, because it's always the same few people contributing to the discussion. The idea is that consensus should rule, but then the question becomes: if only three people participate in the discussion, is that consensus? Are all of those editors who chose to abstain from voting treated as assenting or dissenting? I think it's a non-trivial problem. - GrantC (talk) 16:45, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about alphabet, but both language and geography are subject to extensive pseudoscience and pseudohistory for political and religious reasons, and I think the Sanskrit article does a good job of demonstrating why. It's maybe not so obvious in the Anglosphere, where native speakers speak the single most dominant language in the world and most of us have access to reasonably accurate and honest maps that show territory disputes in an impartial manner, but for example there have been disputes on Wikipedia about the origins of the Armenian and Urdu languages; in both cases there were partisans insisting they were of Iranian origin, even though Urdu is nearly indistinguishable from Hindi except for alphabet and, to the extent anyone can make head or tail out of Armenian's origins (it's really eccentric in comparison to its origins and other Indo-European languages), it's closer to Greek than it is anything else. These are issues people take really, really seriously, and often get really, really wrong. Want some other explanations? Come at me, bro. EVDebs (talk) 20:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's not just obscure exotic languages that nobody cares about (from the Euro-/Anglocentric viewpoint prevalent at RW); much closer to home, but essentially the same problem as with Armenian and Urdu, there are perennial suggestions that English is a Scandinavian language or descended from French, or some weird Romance–Germanic creole, or that it has developped out of (Low or High) German, even though we can trace its history without any significant gaps all the way to Old English. The problem is that many people take these suggestions seriously. ("Many people" in this case meaning "virtually everyone, including people who should be expected to know better, such as, oh, how about, for example, linguists?") --84.151.165.59 (talk) 01:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's a little more complicated than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Classification_and_related_languages . The Germannic influence comes in when you trace further back than Old English, and there is some French and Norse influence. The English of today is descended from all that (and more). Nullahnung (talk) 01:44, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think the most accepted model right now and yes I know we're off on a tangent i don't care this is more fun than arguing is that English, Frisian, and Low German are one particular clade known as North Sea Germanic and/or Ingaevonic. Dutch and Afrikaans are what remains of a second branch, Istaevonic (basically the language of the Franks before they adopted Latin), and High German/Alemannic are a third Elbe Germanic or Irminonic branch. There's little dispute about Norman French influence on the language, but the core of most frequently used words remains Germanic, even if the grammar is a little off in the weeds and the phonetics are outright horrifying. I have heard that may be where the Norse influence came in most strongly -- in addition to the appearance of significant numbers of Norse words because of close contact between England-that-was and the Danelaw, the fact that Old Norse and Old English were almost-but-not-quite intercomprehensible may have led to a degree of grammar simplification, with things like elimination of gender and the loss of overly long compound words happening in order to ease communication in bilingual communities. Now that doesn't make English a Scandinavian language at all, any more than having an immense whack of French words makes English Romance; for example, the postposed definite article is something that (at least among Germanic language) is uniquely Scandinavian, save parts of southern Denmark where there's Plattdeutsch influence. EVDebs (talk) 02:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- As noted here, the attrition of the Old English endings, which precipitated the development towards analyticity, began in the North already before any Viking had even set foot on English soil. British Celtic substratum influence does sound like a more plausible explanation to me. Of course, most Germanic languages eventually simplified their morphology considerably (with Continental Scandinavian going even farther than standard English in the verb: they've generalised the 3rd singular ending everywhere), but nowhere else did this start as early as in English, which makes the Celtic explanation attractive.
- Where have we left off again? --84.151.165.59 (talk) 02:47, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- And, for what it's worth, almost all of the languages of Continental Scandinavia and Dutch have undergone the loss of grammatical forms and categories that are almost as thorough as those experienced by English. Spoken French has shed almost as much, compared to Spanish or Latin. All of these languages that lose their grammar share a feature. They don't allow many vowels in unstressed syllables, and have a tendency to reduce them. And when the endings become indistinct, they no longer carry any weight in syntax, and the grammar is lost. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think the most accepted model right now and yes I know we're off on a tangent i don't care this is more fun than arguing is that English, Frisian, and Low German are one particular clade known as North Sea Germanic and/or Ingaevonic. Dutch and Afrikaans are what remains of a second branch, Istaevonic (basically the language of the Franks before they adopted Latin), and High German/Alemannic are a third Elbe Germanic or Irminonic branch. There's little dispute about Norman French influence on the language, but the core of most frequently used words remains Germanic, even if the grammar is a little off in the weeds and the phonetics are outright horrifying. I have heard that may be where the Norse influence came in most strongly -- in addition to the appearance of significant numbers of Norse words because of close contact between England-that-was and the Danelaw, the fact that Old Norse and Old English were almost-but-not-quite intercomprehensible may have led to a degree of grammar simplification, with things like elimination of gender and the loss of overly long compound words happening in order to ease communication in bilingual communities. Now that doesn't make English a Scandinavian language at all, any more than having an immense whack of French words makes English Romance; for example, the postposed definite article is something that (at least among Germanic language) is uniquely Scandinavian, save parts of southern Denmark where there's Plattdeutsch influence. EVDebs (talk) 02:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's a little more complicated than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Classification_and_related_languages . The Germannic influence comes in when you trace further back than Old English, and there is some French and Norse influence. The English of today is descended from all that (and more). Nullahnung (talk) 01:44, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's not just obscure exotic languages that nobody cares about (from the Euro-/Anglocentric viewpoint prevalent at RW); much closer to home, but essentially the same problem as with Armenian and Urdu, there are perennial suggestions that English is a Scandinavian language or descended from French, or some weird Romance–Germanic creole, or that it has developped out of (Low or High) German, even though we can trace its history without any significant gaps all the way to Old English. The problem is that many people take these suggestions seriously. ("Many people" in this case meaning "virtually everyone, including people who should be expected to know better, such as, oh, how about, for example, linguists?") --84.151.165.59 (talk) 01:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
I have massively valued much of the political content
Especially stuff about Ron Paul and Libertarianism. I think pointing out inconsistencies with ideologies is a good thing. I really wouldn't like the political stuff to go. That said, I have wondered if the site doesn't come off as being a bit ideologically left wing and this leaves the site open to the, seemingly oft-repeated, "I thought this was rational wiki" on issues where there is a legitimate rational arguments on both sides.— Unsigned, by: Barryjon / talk / contribs
- You just got at a major component of why presenting leftist politics is bad for RW, although your example is weird. The real problems are snark, groupthink, some editors getting a pass on doing whatever they feel like to content and the wikis public face, and endless ass talk from others.

23:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. My examples were merely experiential. Also realise I forgot to sign above. Although it may be hard to scope an approach to politics, I think it could be done and would be worthwhile. --Barryjon (talk) 23:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I like to think that's because that's where the evidence leads, not because of ideology, although I'm not sure I'd consider our slant left as such. Our slant is basically anti-authoritarian and anti-douchebag, and pro-inquiry, pro-selfawareness, and pro-snark. After all, it's not like the left is totally unchallenged -- virtually no one here, regardless of ideology, likes the authoritarian left (see our articles on communism and radical feminism). But see what I said above about selfawareness -- virtually all of the complaints I see about perceived left-wing content boil down to "don't make me think about that or I might have to think about myself". Introspection isn't left-wing; it should be required for anyone claiming to be a critical thinker. EVDebs (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I am going to have to disagree with that, of course. My main concern is that some of the site's political stances undermine our commitment to evolution, and particularly the gene-centered, neo-Darwinian synthesis. While evolutionary psychology has its excesses, the excesses of its detractors go even further. I think the fundamental idea is sound, and denying that human psychology, behavior, and social structures have been shaped by evolution amounts to human exceptionalism. Worse, it's counterproductive in a purely rhetorical sense; whatever else you can say about evolutionary psychology, work that shares its assumptions by people such as Frans de Waal, Robert Trivers, and Jonathan Haidt offers real insights into human behavior that people can notice and even use in their daily life. And when people start seeing things in their world and saying to themselves, 'evolutiondidit' - we win. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oh stop it. When your pet field is strong enough to not be used as trump cards by creationists we'll acknowledge it is more than protoscience. Falsifiability has always been the issue, I don't care about your politics. Osaka Sun (talk) 05:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- More to the point, evo psych is not accepted by the evo devo people who should be providing the most corroborating data. EVDebs (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I am going to have to disagree with that, of course. My main concern is that some of the site's political stances undermine our commitment to evolution, and particularly the gene-centered, neo-Darwinian synthesis. While evolutionary psychology has its excesses, the excesses of its detractors go even further. I think the fundamental idea is sound, and denying that human psychology, behavior, and social structures have been shaped by evolution amounts to human exceptionalism. Worse, it's counterproductive in a purely rhetorical sense; whatever else you can say about evolutionary psychology, work that shares its assumptions by people such as Frans de Waal, Robert Trivers, and Jonathan Haidt offers real insights into human behavior that people can notice and even use in their daily life. And when people start seeing things in their world and saying to themselves, 'evolutiondidit' - we win. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- No, I disagree. Snark is not the problem; it is the solution. More snark is required. And you really need to stop giving a damn about what the "public face" of the wiki is too.
- Christ, it's like alt.gothic all over again. --Castaigne (talk) 13:13, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Admittedly, anyone that takes on Ron Paul is called a commie/leftie/statist/RINO etc. Even if we slim down our mission he's said so many outrageous things that his article will stay. Osaka Sun (talk) 00:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I completely disagree. Pretty much all the people who make the complaint "I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALwiki!" are racists, MRAs, Freemen, woo-pushers or cranks. It is possible there are examples that aren't, but that's what the overwhelming majority are. These people complaining is not a problem in any manner whatsoever - David Gerard (talk) 10:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Timeframe for change?
If the mission is narrowed, will we get notice? I would like to take copies of some of the articles that might get obliterated.--Barryjon (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bet your sweet ass you'll get plenty of notice. It's going to be the biggest decision ever made here. And thankfully RW is so wretched at follow through, you might as well be watching a bunch of strangers masturbate.

00:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I would think a group of strangers masturbating would be fairly good at following through... - GrantC (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- His "analogy" is that this here is like meaningless circle jerking that most probably ultimately leads nowhere. Nullahnung (talk) 00:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I did understand what his analogy was. I was setting up for my second sentence, which was a joke. :P - GrantC (talk) 00:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Seconded. I feel as if we are all trying to work towards a common goal, but get lost in some issue that makes us think irrationally. I also feel as if we can do "give and take", we might be able to reach towards a common goal that may please a good amount of us. Even the smartest people can be like that.--The Madman (talk) 19:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
- It's really unclear if the "mandate" for change exists beyond a few editors.
talk 20:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's really unclear if the "mandate" for change exists beyond a few editors.
- His "analogy" is that this here is like meaningless circle jerking that most probably ultimately leads nowhere. Nullahnung (talk) 00:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I would think a group of strangers masturbating would be fairly good at following through... - GrantC (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Less talking, more voting!
I feel like the discussion is getting out of hand at this point, or at least it's hard for me to follow. Simple idea: anyone can propose a new version of the mission in this section, with the ability to vote on each. Vote up or down on as many as you like. Copy and paste parts of other people's proposals into your own, if you like, but everybody vote. Let's see whose ideas find favor. Further discuss each proposal in another section. — Unsigned, by: Wehpudicabok / talk / contribs 02:30, 12 January 2014
![]() ![]() ![]() | 39 | The existing missions:
Our purpose here at RationalWiki includes:
|
![]() ![]() ![]() | 10 | "RationalWiki is a resource for refuting pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, and pseudohistory, as well as documenting the major figures who promote such things. The site also critically analyses politics, religion, and culture from a pro-science perspective, with a focus on refuting misinformation and bad ideas throughout these fields. RationalWiki is not a general encyclopedia and does not contain articles on every state, historical event or figure, or blogger you find interesting. Refutations of such figures may be added if they operate from an empirical, pro-science perspective. Bring the data and your analysis." (Wehpudicabok, borrowing partially from Stabby) |
![]() ![]() ![]() | 3 | "RationalWiki is a resource for refuting crank ideas, including pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, and pseudohistory, as well as documenting the major figures who promote such things. The site also critically analyses politics, religion, and culture from a pro-science perspective, with a focus on refuting misinformation and bad ideas throughout these fields. RationalWiki is not a general interest encyclopedia. We focus on subjects relating to the crank ideas which are our core focus. Because these ideas are often hilarious when stated plainly, we sometimes try to be funny." (Smerdis of Tlön < Wehpudicabok < Stabby the Misanthrope) |
![]() ![]() ![]() | -12 | "RationalWiki is a resource for analyzing and refuting pseudoscience, anti-science movements, conspiracy theories, pseudolaw, pseudohistory, and other crank ideas, exploring authoritarianism and fundamentalism, and documenting major figures who promote such things. The site also critically analyses politics, religion, culture, and media from a pro-science perspective, with a focus on refuting misinformation and bad ideas throughout these fields.
RationalWiki is not a general encyclopedia and does not contain articles on every state, historical event or figure, or blogger you find interesting. Refutations of such figures may be added if they operate from an empirical, pro-science perspective. Bring the data and your analysis. It should be noted that RationalWiki operates from a persepective known as SPOV, which may stand for all of the following: Scientific Point Of View, Skeptical Point of View, and Snarky Point Of View. This is in contrast to the more well-known NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) associated with general references such as Wikipedia. We welcome contributors, and encourage those who disagree with us to register and engage in constructive dialogue." (The One They Call Mars < Wehpudicabok < Stabby the Misanthrope) |
![]() ![]() ![]() | -6 | Add to the above proposal: "Rationalwiki is dedicated to combating ignorance that leads to unquestioning loyalty to a wide variety of topics. It may seem quick to judge at times. Examination of one's actions and viewpoints with Logic before/after/during the arguments may help you to understand."(MadmanJohnson,being serious.) |
![]() ![]() ![]() | 7 | Our purpose here at RationalWiki includes:
Our point of view (SPOV) may be described as Scientific, Skeptical or Snarky. This is in contrast to the more well-known NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) associated with general references such as Wikipedia. We welcome contributors, and encourage those who disagree with us to register and engage in constructive dialogue. |
Fundamentalism
I like the proposed mission that includes the reference to fundamentalism. I take it to include political/economic fundamentalism, am I wrong?--Barryjon (talk) 03:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Or maybe include political EXTREMISM ?--Barryjon (talk) 04:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- FFS read the mission as it stands. Extremism is already relevant to the extent it implicates something that's within our bailiwick like authoritarianism, pseudoscience, pseudolaw, etc. Otherwise you might as well create Wankspace for people to write their own academic takes on what they consider extremist and how they think it's interesting when it doesn't already support a mission goal. Come to think of it, we've already got a readymade Wankspace for lots of you to pontificate, show off, and chit chat: it's called Userspace.

20:10, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- My less experienced reading of the [mission] doesn't explicitly include political and religious extremism as far as has been included in practice. I like what's already here, my only concern would be a cull of much of the existing religious and political content. Why so angry?--Barryjon (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not angry. I'm frustrated that several people here, including you, don't seem to get it. That's become almost memetic, but since I've got one foot out the door and no longer think RW deserves the work some people have done for it, I don't care about the inevitable criticism of that position. And who's culling what now that our resident deletionist mercifully quit? That's not even part of this discussion, and you certainly don't need to change the mission to get a handle on how to deal with what we've already got; you're still going to have to spend time deciding what to do. This is a toxic subject.

22:04, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get it. I see a consensus has formed to keep the existing mission and I support that. Like I say my moan concern was that stuff would suddenly disappear, others across the various threads did bring up deletion en masse and I am reassured that inertia would likely prevent it. For what it's worth, I hope you keep at least one foot in the door. After reading this thread I also read your post from last year about curating and editing policy and think I understand more of where you are coming from and applaud what were (are?) your lofty goals for RW & RMF. --Barryjon (talk) 11:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not angry. I'm frustrated that several people here, including you, don't seem to get it. That's become almost memetic, but since I've got one foot out the door and no longer think RW deserves the work some people have done for it, I don't care about the inevitable criticism of that position. And who's culling what now that our resident deletionist mercifully quit? That's not even part of this discussion, and you certainly don't need to change the mission to get a handle on how to deal with what we've already got; you're still going to have to spend time deciding what to do. This is a toxic subject.
- My less experienced reading of the [mission] doesn't explicitly include political and religious extremism as far as has been included in practice. I like what's already here, my only concern would be a cull of much of the existing religious and political content. Why so angry?--Barryjon (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- FFS read the mission as it stands. Extremism is already relevant to the extent it implicates something that's within our bailiwick like authoritarianism, pseudoscience, pseudolaw, etc. Otherwise you might as well create Wankspace for people to write their own academic takes on what they consider extremist and how they think it's interesting when it doesn't already support a mission goal. Come to think of it, we've already got a readymade Wankspace for lots of you to pontificate, show off, and chit chat: it's called Userspace.
Skepticism and Critical Thinking
I think these do deserve prominence in the mission.--Barryjon (talk) 03:55, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- If nothing else, I think that adding the line In pursuing this purpose we promote critical thinking to the current statement might be worthwhile. But the wholesome conservatism of the live community fills my heart with great gladness. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:14, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Atheism and Religion
I must admit, I've only just noticed that discussion of religion and atheism is not part of the mission. That's not at all the impression I got or get from the site generally. I think the mission should reflect the reality in this case.--Barryjon (talk) 04:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think you find some in the evolution vs creationism paarticularly as related to teaching science in high schools. Hamster (talk) 04:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good point, Barryjon. While most of our contributors only really have a problem with religion when it gets overtly destructive or tries to infiltrate politics, I do think that discussion of religion is (if you'll pardon the pun) fundamentally part of our domain. (Also, how did I forget to sign my post above? Normally I'm very good about that. [:(] ) Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Which is not to say we don't have material on atheism; I was the one who started the Atheism FAQ... Which is only partially about atheism. But we have much bigger fish to fry here, and compared to the general theme of debunking and critical thinking, atheism is of relatively minor importance, even compared to discussing and critiquing religion. I'll take a skeptical fideist over a blinkered atheist any day of the week. EVDebs (talk) 08:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
My proposal to amend the mission
I know making such a proposal in a matter so profound as amending the mission may seem ballsy for a new user, but I should note I've been here as a reader and IP contributor since around late 2012. The block of text has put on a fair deal of weight here, so we may want to break it down into list form. I'm not sure. The One They Call Mars (talk) 07:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
How to fix RW!
All that said, there's stuff needs fixing here.
- Much of RW is just shitty.
- Our good stuff is fantastic! It usually links to stuff you'd be embarrassed to link someone to.
- Not very well curated.
- A lot of the writing is just bloody awful.
The solution is basically more writing with an eye to quality. This is of course as easy to say as it is hard to magick into existence.
But if you really want a better RW ... you need to visibly lead by example. There is no other way. It's only going to happen organically - David Gerard (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- This is the best statement I've seen on this page of how things ought to be. Doers need to do. There are too many worthy projects, but sadly more big talk. I urge people pressing to change the mission to consider their own motives; what RW already does well; how well it keeps house (badly); how well RWians respond to issues over which there's no reasonable dispute need attention (badly); and who they think reads RW and what they want; and generally how much cooler, better and inspiring RW could be if it did what it already said it was going to do.

20:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
In defense of country articles
I admit I started one of our country articles (Syria).
I also admit that many of our country articles are bad. Some read like Wikipedia circa 2007. Some are full of irrelevant local points of pride (Czech Budweiser is better, etc.)
But I think Rationalwiki needs country articles that are short and on-mission and serve mainly as links to more in-depth articles.
For example, an article on Haiti would not mention geography, cuisine, or list the political parties (let me guess, there are liberal ones and conservative ones and they're all corrupt). It would spend a sentence or two describing Haiti. It would spend a sentence or two explaining that according to some Americans, white people rebelling against England is Godly, while black people rebelling against the French are Satanic (with references) and link to articles on slavery, racism and colonialism. It would spend one sentence linking to the vodou article. It might have a sentence that quotes Pat Robertson and that also contains the word "fuckwit" and links to his article. The article would, in essence, ask the reader "Why did you enter "Haiti" into the search box on Rationalwiki?" and give some mission-related links.
An article on Argentina would mention Nazis (automatically on-mission). It would mention the authoritarian history and link to relevant articles. It would spend a sentence or two on Eva Peron, because millions of people irrationally adored her and supported her husband against their own self interest, and she inspired a musical. It would find a funny snarky way to say that. It would spend a couple of sentences talking about how dictators and democrats alike stir up over the top nationalism over the Falklands for political purposes, and link to the Falklands article, execpt that article is so crap it's parody. If some Argentine edits it to brag about how pampas steaks are better than Texas ones, we could gently revert.
Some people don't like short stubby articles, but bits are cheap, and linking is the entire point of the web.
Also, the wording of the alternative mission statements above that include "...does not contain... that you find interesting" is I think unintentionally snobby and condescending. Better to say "is not a complete record of every interesting..." or the like. But I already voted for the original mission. Weorthe (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- When I came to the article on Egypt, the bulk of the article was a long chronology of the fall of Mubarak. AFAIK it's still here and linked from the page, but of course that is seriously dated now and the sort of thing people wonder about. I gave the article a bit more historical depth. Not every country will have as much woo as Egypt, of course, but at least some would appear to have plenty. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Our country articles are a complete mess. There's loads of missiony things to say about, eg, Colombia but it's a crappy stub, while Slovenia was once in danger of turning into a book. SophieWilder
21:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- There are crappy articles in most every category. Again, it's a matter of poor curatorship. It doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't have country pages. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:04, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- There are crappy articles in most every category. Again, it's a matter of poor curatorship. It doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't have country pages. ωεαşεζόίď
- Our country articles are a complete mess. There's loads of missiony things to say about, eg, Colombia but it's a crappy stub, while Slovenia was once in danger of turning into a book. SophieWilder
- If the country articles are kept as hubs, then we should make a template or something that specifies the article as a hub (e.g., in an article about Zanzibar Land, we could do a brief overview on the country itself then do a brief recap and link it to Yozef Norden, a political extremist from there, Zanzibarian nationalistic claims about its origin, Zanzibarian nuclear holocaust denial, etc). --Raysenn Get the paddles, he's having a cancer! 00:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Dump?
Is there a legit way to get a dump of the existing content?--Barryjon (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Erm ... not sure there is. We certainly don't run regular DB dumps that I know of. (And yes, we totally should and it is neglectful of me not to be able to answer "sure here you go".) Trent? - David Gerard (talk) 19:47, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
RationalWiki:Content dumps. 174.56.73.218 (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Special:Export I wish you the best of luck forking RW.

20:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Special:Export I wish you the best of luck forking RW.
- I strongly, strongly, urge anyone trying to get many or most of our pages to just get the XML dump and not use export. For only a few pages that works fine, but anything more than that will be a frustrating experience. Tmtoulouse (talk) 20:05, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Who said anything about forking? I am only interested in how one would get a dump/backup. Just in case some of the articles were to be culled for being non-mission.--Barryjon (talk) 20:18, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yo could just ask a sysop to copy the text of it to a userpage, eg User:Barryjon/Felidae or whatever. SophieWilder
21:42, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yo could just ask a sysop to copy the text of it to a userpage, eg User:Barryjon/Felidae or whatever. SophieWilder
Conclusion:
given that the voting is overwhelmingly in favor of the current mission statement, I propose that any further discussion on it be terminated . Lets now move on to the next items raised , which are 1. curating and 2. crappy and off mission articles. There seem to be two obvious choices -
- an article improvement drive - list articles to be improved before any new articles are created
- a deletion list of articles to be rid of as either very bad or off mission.
- cull the to do list (needs a cleanup anyway)
(yes I know thats 3 things.)
- proposals ? Hamster (talk) 04:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- David Gerard said somewhere, might have been here (hard for me to keep track of this whole conversation at this point), that we can't force people to focus their attention on one area, and if we cut off some area that we feel is getting too much attention in an attempt to divert them, they'll just leave. I agree with him, and I don't think an article improvement drive is a good idea if it includes the phrase "before any new articles are created". Otherwise it's a great idea. And yes, a deletion list is also a good idea, and better still what ListenerX said above about moving deletion discussion/votes to a central page rather than having each discussion occur on each article's talk page.
- As an aside about the mission, I am honestly surprised that the consensus was to keep it the same, and I must confess a little disappointment. But I know when to quit, and won't push for a change any more. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- I do think there's value to an strategic article improvement initiative. I think it will requires someone taking the horns and managing it. I would recommend the Main page articles since they were meant to be very mission-centric. I suspect deletion could be done through our regular process, although I think someone could look at categories as well and move more efficiently through the articles for deletion category.
talk 14:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Someone might jump down my throat for this, so I wish to cautiously add the disclaimer that my experiences with this are somewhat limited, and I could very well be wrong. I'm not sure how well the current deletion system works. In principle, I think it has the potential to work, but there are some issues I find. First off, anything too far off the areas of wide interest to the wiki is not likely to be seen or commented on. This would not be a problem normally, but an argument I've seen on more than a few arguments over page deletions has been "five people does not make a consensus". Well... When one is trying to delete a page that nobody is interested in, it's kind of difficult to accomplish anything when abstentions are treated as "keep" votes. I think a centralized page for deletions could be useful to help with this, as it would make it a bit more clear how close to "consensus" the actual result is. - GrantC (talk) 15:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- It takes three unopposed sysops to allow a deletion (plus a decent amount of time to allow proper discussion). Opposed deletion requirements are a lot vaguer, but to-to-one in favor usually carries it. The hard part is finding enough people who care either way. Deletion discussions should get mentioned in the edit comments. We once had an Articles for Deletion page, but not enough people cared enough to maintain it. Thankfully we don't have WP's army of bureaucracy nerds. SophieWilder
16:29, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying. I think I may have seen a few edge cases and had that cloud my judgment (I can recall a few deleted articles that turned into edit wars as individuals argued whether three or four sysops agreeing to delete and nobody opposed was really consensus). I agree with your point about mentioning the deletions in the edit comments, and I like what you and a few others have been doing recently (bumping articles under discussion for deletion). I think that's a sound idea overall. - GrantC (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- It takes three unopposed sysops to allow a deletion (plus a decent amount of time to allow proper discussion). Opposed deletion requirements are a lot vaguer, but to-to-one in favor usually carries it. The hard part is finding enough people who care either way. Deletion discussions should get mentioned in the edit comments. We once had an Articles for Deletion page, but not enough people cared enough to maintain it. Thankfully we don't have WP's army of bureaucracy nerds. SophieWilder
- Someone might jump down my throat for this, so I wish to cautiously add the disclaimer that my experiences with this are somewhat limited, and I could very well be wrong. I'm not sure how well the current deletion system works. In principle, I think it has the potential to work, but there are some issues I find. First off, anything too far off the areas of wide interest to the wiki is not likely to be seen or commented on. This would not be a problem normally, but an argument I've seen on more than a few arguments over page deletions has been "five people does not make a consensus". Well... When one is trying to delete a page that nobody is interested in, it's kind of difficult to accomplish anything when abstentions are treated as "keep" votes. I think a centralized page for deletions could be useful to help with this, as it would make it a bit more clear how close to "consensus" the actual result is. - GrantC (talk) 15:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- I do think there's value to an strategic article improvement initiative. I think it will requires someone taking the horns and managing it. I would recommend the Main page articles since they were meant to be very mission-centric. I suspect deletion could be done through our regular process, although I think someone could look at categories as well and move more efficiently through the articles for deletion category.
- As an aside about the mission, I am honestly surprised that the consensus was to keep it the same, and I must confess a little disappointment. But I know when to quit, and won't push for a change any more. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- I suspect a lot of it was simply a protest against the propoesd mass cull - David Gerard (talk) 21:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Proposal:
following the discussion on mission etc I am proposing the following.
- an effort to clean up and improve articles starting with the existing cover stories and high-priority articles.
- checking and agreement on http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:Articles_for_deletion and http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:Articles_that_might_not_further_the_RW_mission
- also http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:Articles_nominated_for_moving_to_funspace and http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:Articles_nominated_for_moving_to_essayspace.
Can we make decisions on these items and get it done ?
Hamster (talk) 17:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- The "high priority" tag (or any of the other priority ratings from the
{{rate-priority}}template) is a really unreliable indicator. I think, at this point, the priority ratings are only used by a handful editors. They're applied arbitrarily and no particular criteria have ever been specified for them (unlike the bronze, silver, gold quality ratings, which are also used fairly arbitrarily but at least have some basic guidelines). High priority articles include fish that survive on land and Ray Comfort's You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence, but You Can't Make Him Think. Really? There's also a separate high priority category for articles, which has been around since the site's early days & looks a bit more sensible, but I suspect that's also used somewhat arbitrarily & largely abandoned. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:39, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- ok, so how do we come up with a priority list if the existing catagories are not sufficient ? Hamster (talk) 20:10, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- The priority settings are from when someone(s) decided we should because wikipedia does. The trouble was they failed to look at why WP does so - to highlight commonly-searched terms and look after those articles more carefully than others. On RW it seems to be based on "I think this is important." The only actual high priority articles are the cover stories and entry point articles. I think we should do away with priority rating altogether. SophieWilder
20:21, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Me too. Trying to agree any criteria for determining article priority at this point will just loop us back into the same old haranguing about how important politics/feminism/linguistics/YouTube etc. are to the missions. It would be better to just gut the rate-priority template so that it no longer displays article priority or puts articles in a priority category. The relevant cats can then be deleted. Maybe keep the original 'high priority' cat around (as linked above) with some basic guidelines for usage (even as simple as "when you put an article in this category, explain why on its talk page"). Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 20:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- ok, can we use the existing rating-priority system to try to set some criteria for article improvement or deletion using some simple criteria. If we dont have something it will just stay as chaos. Hamster (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- As I said, I don't think it's a great idea. Two weeks into this debate, we're no closer to a common understanding of what RW's priorities really are than when when it started. Better to just deal with how good/bad/on-mission/important our articles are on a case-by-case basis. A single 'high priority' cat (the original one) might be worth keeping for a narrow range of stuff that we know is important and gets a fair amount of traffic. Beyond that, I think any high/mid/low system is just needless petty bureaucracy. Weaseloid
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- If you think an article deserves improvement, improve it. Find someone to help you if you need it. We'll be in the bar., swapping article improvement anecdotes and knocking back Blue Nun. SophieWilder
23:02, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- When we/I did the Main page redesign, I tried to put on the front items that were typically covered in skeptical sources. No one seemed to disagree with them, and that's where I would start.
talk 20:31, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
- When we/I did the Main page redesign, I tried to put on the front items that were typically covered in skeptical sources. No one seemed to disagree with them, and that's where I would start.
- If you think an article deserves improvement, improve it. Find someone to help you if you need it. We'll be in the bar., swapping article improvement anecdotes and knocking back Blue Nun. SophieWilder
- As I said, I don't think it's a great idea. Two weeks into this debate, we're no closer to a common understanding of what RW's priorities really are than when when it started. Better to just deal with how good/bad/on-mission/important our articles are on a case-by-case basis. A single 'high priority' cat (the original one) might be worth keeping for a narrow range of stuff that we know is important and gets a fair amount of traffic. Beyond that, I think any high/mid/low system is just needless petty bureaucracy. Weaseloid
- ok, can we use the existing rating-priority system to try to set some criteria for article improvement or deletion using some simple criteria. If we dont have something it will just stay as chaos. Hamster (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Me too. Trying to agree any criteria for determining article priority at this point will just loop us back into the same old haranguing about how important politics/feminism/linguistics/YouTube etc. are to the missions. It would be better to just gut the rate-priority template so that it no longer displays article priority or puts articles in a priority category. The relevant cats can then be deleted. Maybe keep the original 'high priority' cat around (as linked above) with some basic guidelines for usage (even as simple as "when you put an article in this category, explain why on its talk page"). Щєазєюіδ
- The priority settings are from when someone(s) decided we should because wikipedia does. The trouble was they failed to look at why WP does so - to highlight commonly-searched terms and look after those articles more carefully than others. On RW it seems to be based on "I think this is important." The only actual high priority articles are the cover stories and entry point articles. I think we should do away with priority rating altogether. SophieWilder
- The "high priority" tag (or any of the other priority ratings from the
- Here's a further idea, if anyone is interested. How about consolidation of articles? I'm experimenting with a list of minor cranks in my userspace; could this not be done for things like countries? --Castaigne (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- ok, so people want a totally ad-hoc handling of the site, with no firm guide on either improving articles or deleting off-mission stuff. Not a problem then. Hamster (talk) 05:31, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well, this IS a mobocracy. Really, the best way to create a firm guide is to get a few committed people to form a cabal (there is no cabal), decide on standards, and then unilaterally impose them. People will either concede or fight; those who fight, you see what compromises can be made. When you get few people bothering to kick, then you have created a new consensus. --Castaigne (talk) 06:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well, this IS a mobocracy. Really, the best way to create a firm guide is to get a few committed people to form a cabal (there is no cabal), decide on standards, and then unilaterally impose them. People will either concede or fight; those who fight, you see what compromises can be made. When you get few people bothering to kick, then you have created a new consensus. --Castaigne (talk) 06:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- ok, so people want a totally ad-hoc handling of the site, with no firm guide on either improving articles or deleting off-mission stuff. Not a problem then. Hamster (talk) 05:31, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


