RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the clogosphere?

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What is going on?

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[edit] Daily Fail / Video Game photo

Has the offending photo been removed from the article, am I being particularly stupid, or is there another reason why the WIGO doesn't make sense to me? rpeh •TCE 21:58, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

In the comparative size image, the rocket on the far right is a fictional rocket from the Kerbal space simulator.70.62.74.74 (talk) 14:25, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Ah thanks. Never heard of that one. rpeh •TCE 18:25, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Likewise. Would the average reader be expected to know this? A quick reverse image search shows various versions of this chart exist & DM has probably just posted the wrong one without realising. A little sloppy maybe but pretty weak as a Clogosphere entry about the MAil "outperforming itself yet again". WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:30, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
It's a pretty subtle one. I should probably have spotted that the "Kerbal" design is ridiculous, but then again, today's "ridiculous" is tomorrow's "normal" in a lot of stuff. I'm glad it wasn't just me that didn't spot it though. rpeh •TCE 20:06, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


[edit] On Christians and "Hitler 2"

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/3/7/11174064/do-christians-really-favor-trump He doesn't have the sort of support some think he does apparently.

[edit] The Triggering

The impression I got from #TheTriggering was that it was meant to make fun of how saying some mundane things like "manspreading is not a thing" or "criticizing your viewpoints isn't harassment" can get people worked up. Maybe some people see it as a grand defense of free speech from the SJW menace out to get them, but I don't think that is characteristic. Now obviously there are going to be racists and far-right people saying derogatory things, and they shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, but at the same time it's kind of dishonest to call everyone using it an "asshole reactionary" and acting like its a targeted assault on minorities or something. As one poster said, no matter how many people post intelligent things via #thetriggering, people will always focus on the few racists.TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 23:24, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Just tell me, how you like my... rationality

Regarding the Everyday Feminism article, this... is kind of why I tend to be a little easy on the people who complain about "SJWs". Because, despite being a minority of people, the anarchists and supremacists do sometimes land a soapbox at prominent press like EF. And then confirmation biases take those articles and run with it.

Reading through the article, I'm not entirely sure the author knows what "being rational" is. For instance, they write:

Their goal was to ensure that Black people had the same treatment under the public transit system as whites and they never compromised their goals, even as transportation was denied to them over the course of a year. Without transportation, Black lives were completely disrupted. They had to either walk (for those who had that physical ability), or they had to find other forms of transportation.

As a result, they found a new way of operating — they relied on one another.

Black taxi drivers lowered their prices dramatically, Black people with cars began supplying rides to those without cars, and churches bought cars and station wagons to help those who didn’t have access to a vehicle. They organized carpools and collectively established on pickup and dropoff locations.

That was how Black community members developed their own autonomous, sustained transportation system for thousands upon thousands of people that didn’t involve the American settler colonial government.

How rational do you think that was?

That's... incredibly rational. They found an alternative that protests against the established state of public transport while simultaneously minimizing the effect on the largest number of protesters' personal lives through sharing of resources and cooperation. Boom. A logical recourse to a clear problem. What else were they supposed to do? Blow up buses and take bus drivers hostage? Stay at home and do nothing, while sending a note to their employers that they will not be arriving to work due to a protest against the bus system?

I seriously don't understand what they're getting at here (aside from "Let's abolish the police, jails, and the largest government in the world because that will totes make everything better for anyone who isn't cis, white, straight, or male!") ℕoir LeSable (talk) 14:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you entirely, and as a sort of 2nd wave feminist (and certainly a feminist by self-identification) I think we currently do a poor job of covering non-fringe feminist cranks like the one you quote above. Our article on feminism could use some help to more critically spotlight and refute garbage like this. No less than we already bash the extreme right, the racists, the MRA's and the tankies. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
That entire 'Everyday Feminism' site seems to have dropped off the deep end. If the worst thing that happens to me today is that I get 'marginalized', I'll count it as a fine and lucky day. There are articles that might have a point -- my disgust at animal rightsers began when I saw a report about how a gang of white people going on about animal rights tried to disrupt Native Americans trying to exercise fishing rights promised to them by a treaty -- but the 'marginalization' mummery is inherently self-undermining, and framing arguments in those terms seems to be a massive case of unconscious privilege. (Privilege of that kind isn't a bad thing, however.) - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 15:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Wise words. I mean, it is plain - this is feminist crankery of the highest degree and it needs to be refuted by us. As a feminist myself, I'd prefer to call the above "feminism" within quotation marks, but I won't no true scotsman these nutjobs. This whole discussion should possibly be moved to the feminism talk page? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 15:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
So there's more than one example, there's this charming defense of North Korea from someone who clearly adheres to that line of thought (my favorite line was "privilege can be a hell of a drug"—what would someone who claims to have none of it know about that!). Really, that's some impressive mental contortions to 1. apologize for sentencing someone to 15 years of hard labor under the current owner of the country for taking a sign and 2. ramrod the cant of "privileged straight white male" into it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:30, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
That's absolutely nuts, and I also agree perfectly with what you say. I'm thinking... Based on the above discussion, with four esteemed editors all agreeing that this level of third wave feminism is absolute nonsense (and I remind everyone that if it weren't for the scotsman fallacy, I'd very much like to not even call the above feminist), I'm carefully allowing myself to get excited over the idea of us actually debunking cringeworthily postmodernist third waver nonsense (like the above linked) here on RW... We've given the MRA community due snark and refutation, with more to come. Could it be that it's finally time to also adress the elephant in the room and start refuting the third wave radicals as well? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
So you are against the entire third-wave?--Owlman (talk) (mail) 02:07, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 02:07, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
That is a delicate and proper question, one which requires deliberation and nuance in its reply for that answer to be anything but the reply of an ideologue. Add onto that, that I am actually more shallowedly versed in the inner machinations of the feminisms than I'd like to be, so I run a literal risk of taking water over my head if I get too technical... But what I dare say right now is that the material quoted above is absolute crankery. What's worse, it's not as fringe as you'd think. Sweden has an entire party based on the above ideas, who equally naïvely want to "uninvent guns globally" (?), "eliminate prisons entirely" and such postmodernist crap. I've personally debated people of the above political persuation who literally claimed that hermeneutics were more important than physics for ultimately understanding reality. So, to try to tentatively answer your question in short; no. To answer it at length; I am an opponent of illiberalism, of power + prejudice, of postmodernism, of continental philosophy over analytic philosophy and so on. Which, in a sense, pulls the rug out from under the third wave as far as my limited understanding goes. But again, it's a good question and this is literally a half-baked answer to it. I will end this rambling statement by underscoring that I am a proud feminist myself, and call myself that whenever I get the chance. And I see all the flaws in the MRA movement clear as day, believe you me. And I am just elated that we now may possibly converge on the literally equally nonsensical above crankery. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
I usually wouldn't ask such a broad question, but you stated that you were a proud second wave feminist and seemed eager to discredit third wave concepts. I will say the AFAIK the most famous TERFs have been from the second wave such as Germaine Greer. I am not opposed to postmodernism myself, but I agree that there are problems with it. I am not of fan of imprisonment as well, but I am unaware of the Swedish party you are referring. I do agree with Aneris when it comes to SJWs, but where he sees malice I see incompetence. The internet has unleashed a volley of academic concepts that the mainstream doesn't understand; it has given a platform to everyone which can reach a mass audience. Both the alt-right and SJW have misinterpreted these concepts or manipulated them in order to fit their narrative. Honestly, the best comparison I can come up with is Maoism since they have picked their underclass which they rely on and have demonised a ruling class in which they may combat.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 02:58, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 02:58, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
I consider myself a "third wave" radical feminist (although I suppose I may be too old school for some), and the article was still rather silly to me. The concept that the patriarchy and gender binary only came to town with European colonists makes me throw up in my mouth a little. It seems to set out to make a point that should be made about tone policing, but then goes off the deep end even by social justice standards as it starts to advocate that rationality is a oppressive concept (which is actually using the oppressor's definition of "rationality" as being calm and level-headed) and advocating for anarchism and "decolonization", whatever the fuck that means or is supposed to look like. Third-wave feminism is, by my understanding at least, is nothing more than being more mindful of intersectionality and other social issues, at its philosophical core it is not that distinguishable from "second-wave" feminism. That's if you put a lot of stock into the "waves" at all. The issue at play has more to do with the introduction of the Internet and the perpetual race to be the person who says the most "radical" and righteous thing, which used to only happen in closed academic circles where less people could see. Hentropy (talk) 03:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
^ This is probably the best introductory explanation of third wave feminism I have heard.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 03:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 03:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── In fact, the 'patriarchy' is largely the result of the two great disasters, the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution, both of which made for larger, more hierarchical societies and, by doing that, put male social instincts at the forefront and sidelined female social instincts. I entirely agree that this is the paper posturing of 1980s academics brought out of the unintelligible prose of minor journals and into the light. It's all about problems with words, so the solution appears to be more and different words, and this is one of the reasons why we haven't had a politically effective left in this country for the past thirty years. And the business about 'marginalization' carries this focus on words and images forward, which is why its reappearance is so dismaying. I'm no Marxist, but a functioning left wing needs a dose of materialism that this sort of posturing puts out of reach. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 18:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the patriarchy is a result of any event, it's a part of human nature just as rape and tribalism/war is and has endured between prehistoric man and the agricultural revolution. The basic social order or women being "protected, but subjugated" existed before civilizations and is a result of woman's peculiar ability to have babies, but with so many different peoples and tribes it is hard to generalize. There are some early societies that embraced women as administrators, but it did not become a trend. The industrial revolution and the fall of monarchies did indeed change the game, because under feudalism and despotism your average peasant man and woman did not have more rights than each other. Which is not to say that they were equal. With more social mobility, however, there became a gaping chasm between what men could do in society and what women could do, and the weakly-supported ideologies keeping women from full citizenship could not last forever in a liberal society. I do agree that a true leftist movement in the US largely failed due to it being too confined to the ivory towers, but it can also be blamed on that old nemesis, racism. The white American working class was simply unwilling to accept the academic Marxist ideas of races being united in class struggle, so we got the softer left-wing populism of Wilson that was racist as hell and not the "true" socialism of Debs. Hentropy (talk) 05:31, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
"Disasters"? Yeah, I hate grocery stores and antibiotics too! I long for the days when you didn't know when or if you'd eat your next meal, and you could die from a little scratch. --Ymir (talk) 18:09, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm guessing they meant "disaster" strictly in terms of gender roles? Kind of like how German chemist Fritz Haber was a "disaster" by pioneering chemical warfare and the weaponization of chlorine, cyanide, etc., while simultaneously a "savior" through his invention of the Haber-Bosch nitrogen fixation process, a miracle that saved countless lives from hunger by revolutionizing fertilizers and allowing for the kind of prodigious farming and food production we see today.
At least, I hope that's what they meant. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
The Neolithic agricultural revolution was indeed a disaster with regard to gender roles. The same phenomenon has actually been observed among captive chimpanzees in zoos. They know where their next meal is coming from reliably, so all of the social hierarchy games that they tend to play are exaggerated. Likewise, agriculture created larger societies and gave a free hand to both status seeking hierarchies and communal violence, and as a result magnified the effects of male instinctual behavior. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Louie Louie

I'm not entirely sure where that "headline" for the Louie Gohmert news post is coming from. As stupid as his reasoning is, he focuses more on the "we need to encourage both genders #alleducationsmatter" line rather than anything religious.

If it's meant to be a direct quote, PZ Myers already commented on that aspect: no reliable sources actually attribute that quote to him.

There are lots of these lying "news" sites out there that rely on making shit up to stir up interest, because apparently the real idiocy going on in the Republican party is just not enough. Shut them off.

ℕoir LeSable (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

[edit] WSJ on CERN

Tagline for the link is terribly misleading. The article addresses how CERN is often a focal point for weirdos and their crankery, but in no way endorses any of it. B4Xiphos (talk) 09:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

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