Talk:Anita Sarkeesian/Archive1

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This is an archive page, last updated 20 April 2015. Please do not make edits to this page.
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Contents

[edit] Tired of Writing

Before people lose their shit about grammar, syntax and spelling errors and leaving things out or putting in stuff I didn't need to, I'm tired as all fuck for some reason. I'll finish tomorrow. I plan on re-watching her videos to help flesh out her commentary.--Token Conservative (talk) 02:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Looks good so far! I fixed up a few little things, so you won't have to worry about them. Wehpudicabok (talk) 02:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
OK, went through all but a few of her videos today to expand on the coverage. I think I have monday off, so I'll probably finish then. I need to talk about her videos on toys and toy ads more and the only released Tropes vs Women video. --Token Conservative (talk) 21:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

should probably be included--Token Conservative (talk) 03:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


[edit] Trigger warning.

Does anyone but Hamilton find the descriptions contained in the article so over-the-top in their graphic nature that they need to be preceded by a warning? If the thunder don't get you/Then the lightning will. 16:50, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

  1. Act your age. I'm not being ridiculously over the top
  2. If you would like, I can make it a whole lot more over the top and graphic if you want
  3. Try keeping the dispute you apparently have in like, one area, rather than here and on my talkpage.


--Token Conservative (talk) 17:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I took out the Sam Adama "phallic knives" symbolism because I'm not sure if that was intentional by the show's creators in the first place, and that "Harrison Ford + vagina ≠ a strong female character" sentence needs to be articulated better (I didn't remove it, it's still embedded in the text). Osaka Sun (talk) 03:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I just noticed this. At a point I realized that my input was not important or wanted, even though I seem to be the only person here who has any clue who she is. So I gave up. Delete the whole article, or whatever, I don't give a shit. --Token Conservative (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Sure thing sweetheart. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:47, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


[edit] Response

(cur | prev) 22:30, 1 June 2013‎ Osaka Sun (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (-1,058)‎ . . (Undo revision 1199202 by 152.13.249.30 (talk) You claim she's cherry-picking, yet you just did the same. Also, funny you mention Samus, who has been extensively sexualized recently.) (undo)

How was I cherry-picking? I was copying nearly word for word the attack on thunderf00t. If I'm cherry-picking, so is that section. As for Samus, you'll notice that's been happening in Other M, which everyone hated. Everyone hated Samus's portrayal in Other M. Which suggests that this really is all in people's heads. There isn't some conspiracy with a bunch of men somewhere going "muwhahaha, we will enslave women even more by making games this way." People didn't go "OMG, finally, the portrayal of Samus I've been waiting for, she's much more traditionally feminine and sexualized!" That's ridiculous.— Unsigned, by: 152.13.249.30 / talk / contribs

Nobody said anything about a conspiracy. But it IS a simple fact that the industry is run by men. They aren't deliberately oppressing women, but they don't see women as equals and it reflects in their work. Work which is very difficult for women to enjoy. Hell, I can't even browse NON-GAMING sites anymore without seeing some pinup-girl with her boobs spilling out of her shirt trying to sell me Grand Theft Fucking Auto #23423.
And frankly, even if I disagreed with Sarkeesian (which I don't), I wouldn't DARE say so, for fear of being associated with the most despicable gang of misogynistic assholes I have ever seen (the people who regularly attack her verbally - not saying you are, saying you shouldn't associate yourself with them). Wehpudicabok (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Quit the reverts and start talking here, please. Wehpudicabok (talk) 23:22, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

That second paragraph right there is a major problem. We've created an atmosphere of thinking that all the media is anti-women and anyone who disagrees is somehow a horrible misogynist. I would think a site like rationalwiki should be against such thinking. That's what it says it is anyway.

People don't think that women are somehow less and that's why they're making games like that. The GTA ads are there because sex sells. And that's true whether we're talking about women or men. Video game companies aren't saying "Well, women are inferior so we're going to make it like this." They're saying "What sells, that's how we'll market it."— Unsigned, by: 152.13.55.31 / talk / contribs

Seriously, "sex sells" is your defence? Osaka Sun (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, stop ignoring everything I'm saying. Yes, sex sells. And thus things are sexualized. Because money. Seriously this is a no brainer. Men are sexualized as well as women, and I think you're ignoring that.— Unsigned, by: 152.13.55.31 / talk / contribs

The fact that women's images are used purely for marketing, with no actual acknowledgement of the humans behind them, is itself evidence that the industry doesn't see them as equals. And men are only sexualized in works that are explicitly designed as erotic entertainment for women (e.g. Chippendales). Women however are objectified constantly.
Please sign your talk page posts with four tildes (~~~~). Wehpudicabok (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
"We've created an atmosphere of thinking that all the media is anti-women and anyone who disagrees is somehow a horrible misogynist." I didn't expect the persecution complex to appear so quickly. Osaka Sun (talk) 23:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
The GTA promos are your response? Seriously? Find me one poster, one, which sexualises male characters in the same way the female ones are. The women are always either in some degree of lingerie or doing something or other associated with seduction (lip-licking, showing cleavage) and are mostly (if not all the time) characters that only appear as peds, i.e. disposable, unimportant, while the male characters depicted actually are characters in the games (Ryder, Smoke, Rosenberg, Caesar) and are depicted doing something associated with the game / setting. And even before you say it, no, Chris Redfield being jacked is not 'sexualisation'. The way he is designed is aimed at dudebros, not women. Polite Timesplitter Let's move on to some other area of sodomy! 09:45, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Just FYI, Timesplitter: I was actually the one who brought up GTA ads originally, not the BoN. I agree with your points though. Wehpudicabok (talk) 09:51, 2 June 2013 (UTC)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw — Unsigned, by: 152.13.55.31 / talk / contribs

Reading this article was like reading feminist version of Conservatopedia. Nice job defending this moron. According to you feminazis (you are the reason why everyone hates feminism), everyone who criticize you is sexist, even Richard Dawkins himself. Have fun pepper spraying protesters while screaming naked on the street. Just don't come crying about "sexist police hitting women", like Femen did. http://lolfrisky.com/pdata/t/l-18571.jpg — Unsigned, by: ‎109.239.58.246 / talk / contribs

What a useful and relevant way to contribute to the discussion. So now we at RatWiki are feminazis ? That's fantastic (especially since most of the Rats are males). I don't see the connection with John Pike (and I certainly don't the see the connection between not joining in the Sarkeesian-bashing and police brutality), but I'm not sure I want to know. Kungo GumiQui ça ? 08:26, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

After watching the (two uploaded) videos I will have to admit that Sarkeesian used a few iffy examples and made iffy general assertions (and shallow, surface-level observations and minor mistakes in research) to make her points, which is not a good reason to jump all over that and ignore the rest of her valid and sometimes very well-made points. One should always be constructive and not destructive like all these "back-to-kitchen" types. But anyways, her overall points nevertheless stand. Sexism and misogyny is present, constantly creeping and largely unchecked in the games industry. Also, another good effect is that her videos sparked discussion on the topic (in more civilized places than Youtube, /v/ or /r/gaming, obviously, like SomethingAwful or RockPaperShotgun).

On a side note:

If you want to draw up a shining example of positive development/advancement/hope in the depiction of women in video games, you should be looking at Alyx Vance from the very refined Half-Life 2 and sequels. Very athletic, able to take care of herself, not one-dimensional, no big boobies or “showing of sexy skin”, likeable personality, and most importantly: not the protagonist.

Note that this is addressing the concern that only protagonist females ever get good characterization while NPC females get pushed into sexist roles, and this is also addressing the concern/myth that violent video games with male protagonists like most shooters are too limited to have good female characterization. Thus Alyx is imo a better cherry to pick than Samus or Lara or whoever. She is also very popular, so not obscure at all.

(Yeah, more cherry-picking, I know, but it’s better cherry-picking than whatever else I’ve seen around here. If you’re gonna cherry-pick, do it right.)

At this point there's also another relevant tendency. The more refined a game is in terms of characters, the less shallow things like those arising from sexism are prevalent. Games with very shallow or cliched characters tend to have the most misogynist/sexist issues, but are conversely also the hardest to take seriously.

On a final note, as statistics like “45% of gamers are women” or “50% of gamers are women, 20% of “hardcore” gamers are women” pop up, it is apparent that we do actually need more positive female examples like Alyx Vance in gaming, so not just in terms of protagonists, though they are a key focus.

Just my two cents. Nullahnung (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, she's not ignoring anything. Looking at tropes is not about looking at counters to those tropes, whatever they be. It's about seeing if there is a very real sample of "more than some" within a genera. Maybe there is an "alian kidnapped me and I got super powers" trope. you look, find only one, and it's not really a trope. you find 30? then maybe/maybe not. it's up to you to make the argument. She found hundreds to fit the first two tropes she is working on. she says, right in big bold "please stop feeling offended" language, that these do not deal (yet) with counter examples. and these are not really about the most modern examples, either, but the "history" of the trope, if you will. Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 19:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Indeed. She also promised to look at some types of counter examples in the third part of her 'Damsels in Distress' series, so that's something to look forward to for those people who want a "balanced" discussion, and anyways, it's not like she came across as someone who is intent on ignoring anything so far.
Admittedly, the two videos she's put up so far contain minor points that are too shallow (simplifying game theory, ignoring facets, etc.) and stays on the surface a lot, but a good effect of that is that they are are very streamlined, accessible and easy to understand and appreciate for the broader audience. Nullahnung (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, she's not an academic, or at least isn't playing one on tv you tube, so you have to take that into consideration. Her audience isn't familar with academic studies of media or feminism, nor with academic feminism. Her audience doesn't understand "othering" or "embodyment" or "disembodyment" without it being explained to them. Which is not a bad thing, the audience is expert in other things, individually. I'm sure if she were writing for (or rather, i hope if she were writing for) a University class on feminism, it would be less superficial. Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 03:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Pretty much spot on. I can't say I like her regular use of rapid-fire montages very much because it robs games of their context (but to play devil's advocate, how else are you gonna show a problem is widespread?) but that doesn't change the fact that her central argument is right. Also, uh, can people stop bringing up Alyx Vance? She borderline hasn't much role except to massage the player's ego (there's even a 'joke' about her and Gordon getting it on during Ep1) but she gets praise heaped on her for covering it up with her clothing. That said, every NPC in HL is just there to jack off the player. Polite Timesplitter Cultural loneliness is a right pain 10:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Um, I think you're simplifying Alyx too much. She certainly has a lot more nuance to her personality than an "ego boost dispenser". The genius in the characters of HL2 is that they don't say much more than is needed. You can sort of guess at the rest of what they must be feeling with all the fluff and plot. Alyx's face animations and body language in particular were revolutionary at the time. Alyx may be unusually attracted to Gordon, but the rest of the way she really is just a regular person with concerns for those close to her and hopes and fears just like you and me would have if we were in that situation, riding out the rollercoaster of events along with the player. I have no trouble identifying with her, even though she is of the opposite gender. She's also never frustrating to the degree a lot of other NPCs are especially in "escort missions", and even helpful. She has a very active role to play overall, but that doesn't mean she takes control away from the player. In short, she's the perfect sidekick NPC. What more can you really ask? Name me one better designed sidekick in all of the FPS genre, you probably won't find one. Valve did an excellent job with her and you should see that the heaps of praise aren't 'just because she is covered with clothing'. Nullahnung (talk) 12:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────So she finally put out the third part to her 'damsels in distress trope' series. I will attempt to summarize what I took away from it below and throw in my two cents about it yet again:

Here's the summary: In a lot of video games it is attempted to do a witty take on the damsel trope. You would think that that would often entail mocking the trope to help gaming move on from the trope and evolve as a medium. But that is not the case. A lot of the time all the witty take is doing is reinforce a version of the trope like having the man be damselled and the woman be strong (repeating the trope, except with a different target, but still bad for repeating the trope) or having an ironic take on the trope, which is still re-stating the trope. Sarkeesian also shows examples of how even in comedy, where the damselling is the punchline/joke, that is still ultimately re-stating the offensive trope of objectifying women and thus preventing us from moving forward from the trope. Only some games like Braid actually challenge the damsel trope without reinforcing a different version of the trope, which is good. The real way forward would actually be to do away with the damsel trope altogether and have more strong women, especially as protagonists.

Personally: Good points. I would just like to point out again that "The more refined a game is in terms of characters, the less shallow things like those arising from sexism are prevalent. Games with very shallow or cliched characters tend to have the most misogynist/sexist issues, but are conversely also the hardest to take seriously." The fact that Sarkeesian cited Braid as one of the legitimate progress-making examples just reinforces my point as well, because Braid does in fact try to be highly refined in terms of characterization. (I would argue, even, that it does so to the point of being eyeball-clawingly pretentious, but that's a different discussion.)

But is it a bad thing to have these shallow games that reinforce offensive tropes, if we do not take them seriously? I mean, who the hell cares, it's just a stupid, brainless game, right? Well, my friend, evidently people ARE starting to care (Mostly women, but do we really want to alienate women from gaming? Didn't think so.). And that fact alone in my eyes is making these points valid. People do care, and not just stupid people. Some quite notable gaming critics too.

I am also thinking about adding a section to the RW video game article detailing common bullshit people say about feminist points in gaming and refuting/discussing them. It IS becoming a rather hot topic now with the release of Dragon's Crown, so it would be very relevant to our article. I would also then draw a parallel between objectification of women in video games and violence in video games, and show that they are very much different cases even though both are claimed by mainstream media to affect gamer's thoughts negatively (violence in video games in very much cathartic, whereas objectification is not, etc.). Nullahnung (talk) 17:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please do! I think it would add a lot. Most I know about video games is that Plants kill zombiees. Also, good critical work on this stuff here. You might consider an essay, and we could link it. I try to link good RW essays when i find them. :-) Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 18:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
This is (sort of old but a) non inflammatory article about this person (that I take as a con artist) and it has the best description of Anita Sarkeesian I've found so far.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/358938
"Poor Anita doesn't seem to realise that she has become the embodiment of what she hates, namely a living, breathing, stunningly attractive trope of a damsel in distress who has been rescued by a mysterious stranger. A hundred and fifty thousand times over." — Unsigned, by: 180.149.96.169 / talk / contribs
Hmm, well, some of that article is on point, and some of it really isn't. Also, it does use some inflammatory language, so I disagree with you there. For example, it makes the completely irrelevant comparison of feminist concerns to climate change concerns, which it seemingly does just to be provocative. But, you know, at the end of the day this article just an opinion piece on the internet. No need to get upset about it. Nullahnung (talk) 19:59, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

[edit] The 6KB edit

Anything salvageable in this? (note that it's still included in the article)--ZooGuard (talk) 15:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Again, does anyone see anything worthy in three-printed-pages worth of nerd-level obsession with mostly irrelevant detail? If nobody shows up, I'm going to go in with the pruning shears.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Nothing of value there I can see. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.Moderator 19:07, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Sarkeesian Debunked

Sarkeesian has been thoroughly debunked as a con artist and plagiarist. She was never a gamer, there's video of her saying this herself years before doing this series. She's stolen all footage used in her critiques from letsplay sumbissions on youtube.

In a just world she'd be sued by the same organizations currently defending her for defrauding them and the women they represent of over 160,000 dollars. If her "efforts" were submitted in an academic environment she would have been expelled for violations of academic honor.

A short video by prominent online atheist Thunderf00t which juxtaposes her kickstarter vid purporting to be a "gamer" with a previous video of her assertions a few years before that she had never touched them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWxAljFlb-c&noredirect=1

Information on her use of other’s video game footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwzB3HKDhA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvwiYmVhW94

The Randy Pitchford Murder fantasy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONuIvX21VYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8aNuP7gv8

Information regarding Anita’s past:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2h4vITidvo

Links to the lecture in which Ms. Sarkeesian admits to not being a gamer:

http://vimeo.com/13216801

http://vimeo.com/13216819 (relevant statements begin at 12:00 here)

http://vimeo.com/13216842

So long as RationalWiki continues to praise this fraud, I can't with good conscience use it as a reference.

Signed, A staunch, moderate skeptic. — Unsigned, by: 206.169.210.153 / talk / contribs 21:10, 11 November 2013

Eh, so what? Does that have any bearing on whether her criticisms of the gaming industry are valid & accurate? WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
It has a bearing over whether your article on Anita Sarkeesian is fundamentally accurate. Weaseloid is right, you are deflecting a criticism of her intellectual honesty and evidence she's perpetrated charity fraud by derailing the discussion into whether her claims are true or not. This is a person who mis-represented herself and her initial perspective. There have been plenty of videos by Thunderf00t criticizing the accuracy of her claims themselves.. you are betraying the introduction of a non-neural point of view and pushing an ideological opinion... Your reaction to this is tantamount to republicans denying the Romney "47%" video was vitriolic against the poor. — Unsigned, by: 206.169.210.153 / talk / contribs
In case you haven't noticed, we do have a sub-section at the bottom on widely used criticisms brought up against her. Nullahnung (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
(EC) Well, no doubt these allegations of using stock footage & not playing video games are a very serious matter, but it does seem from the context a lot like they're being introduced as a needless distraction in response to comments she's about the video game industry & its fanbase that a lot of people don't want to hear. As for evidence of charity fraud, where is it - in a readily accessible format please? Seriously dude, nobody is going to sit through the 90 minutes of vlog links you just posted. If you're referring to anything on Kickstarter, that's explicitly not a base for charity. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:36, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Pardon me.. but she's an outsider to the gaming community, has no interest in video games, and is swooping in to criticize something she has no passion for. It's a very valid criticism. It would be like jewish people demanding changes in churches because.. well.. there's no torah. "Seriously dude, nobody is going to sit through the 90 minutes of vlog links you just posted." -- thanks for telling this entire discussion thread that you're not interested in reviewing actual evidence: ideology over reality! very "Rational". "for evidence of charity fraud, where is it" -- Self-evident. Thunderf00t and TAA have put out better videos while drunk or sick and didn't need 160k to do them. It's obvious, especially given the plagiarism, that this money went straight to anita's favorite investment fund. As for the "criticisms section" -- She's a fraud, the evidence is mountainous. The criticisms section should be the article, and the article should be a sub-section noting the history of her saga and the attention it brought to her cause. — Unsigned, by: 206.169.210.153 / talk / contribs
Please sign your posts properly like everybody else who wants to post on article talk pages. Nullahnung (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Typical tedious tirades against Sarkeesian. Charity fraud? LOL wut? It was never a charity. Not a gamer? Like there's some set definition of what a "gamer" is. She plays video games sometimes, is that not enough? Not that it would invalidate her arguments if it wasn't true; Jewish criticism of Christianity actually has a long and valid history to use your . These are the typical pseudointellectual complaints from the a lame portion of the male gaming community who is so willfully blind to their own privilege that they they can't handle a few mild criticisms about misogyny in the video game world. This a misogyny is so obvious that I actually find Sarkeesian's videos uninteresting. It is after all the industry which gave us Duke Nukem Forever and that Dead or Alive volley ball game. --Marlow (talk) 23:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

[edit] A guided tour through truth for the anonymous IP, chaperoned by the charming AD. You're welcome

Looking at the first video, which (along with the others you raise) have already been discussed above, I see that you provide a misleading summary of a misleading edit of a comment taken out of context. This is fairly illustrative of your issues, so I'll show them to you at length with how that worked.
You called the video, "A short video by prominent online atheist Thunderf00t which juxtaposes her kickstarter vid purporting to be a "gamer" with a previous video of her assertions a few years before that she had never touched them."
That is demonstrably not true. Instead, Thunderf00t shows a short clip of Sarkeesian speaking to a classroom and describing herself as "not a fan of video games," and saying that she "would love to play video games, but [doesn't] want to go around shooting people," in regard to violent video games. This is juxtaposed with a clip from her Kickstarter, where she shows a picture of herself as a child playing Nintendo.
Now, you probably regard this as harmless exaggeration, but it's important: the video said one thing (that she wasn't a "gamer") and you grossly inflated its claims, even to the point of blatant contradiction of the facts - even though the video actually shows Sarkeesian playing Nintendo, you summarized the video as saying that she had never touched them.
Don't roll your eyes, you schmuck. I can see you. And you're not getting it. You're the crude and ill-informed end result of a snowball effect that takes slight deviation from a story in order to falsify the whole narrative.
But don't worry, it's not just your fault. Thunderf00t is also to blame, and at this point deserves about as much respect as the grainy remains of skin left encrusted on a communal bath's sponge. Because when you actually watch the goddamn lecture she was giving to a college class, you see just how massively those comments were yanked out of context.
Sarkeesian was discussing fanfiction and vidding and slash, all intense "fandoms": communities where highly interested people devote many hours to writing, reading, cutting video, and discussing about the possibilities within stories that go beyond the sanctioned stories themselves (be they literature, television, or even video games). When she says she's "not a fan," she's saying it in a very specific context - that of these intense "fandoms." Even as heavily cut as Thunderf00t's version might be, you can even hear a bit of the tail end of context in there (the word "fandom.")
She does also say she had to "learn a lot about video games" to do her project there, but that she's a bit nervous, and maybe self-conscious, and loving video games may have had a different atmosphere to the scholarly culture critic she was trying to project.
More easily explained is her later comment about how she'd really love to play video games (implying she doesn't do so a lot) - she's explaining why the heavily male-dominated and misogynistic atmosphere of the games and the communities associated with them, violent and angry, have repelled her away from those games. That doesn't preclude an earlier period where she played them a lot!
Right now, you're saying, "Yes, but she built this whole criticism on a lie about how she is a 'gamer' and identifies as one! But she can't really understand because she's not a gamer!"
You're stupid. Don't be stupid. It is definitely not the case that only fully-fledged intense members of a subculture get to launch any criticism at that subculture. At absolute best, this might call her credibility into some slight question - regardless of Thunderf00t's deceit, Sarkeesian does put on different public faces, depending on the image she's trying to project. But that's completely normal, and any level of falsehood here is so laughably minor that you yourself would shrug it off in any other context.
You know how I know that? Because you did it, and yet it wasn't a big deal to you. Remember? You exaggerated the contents of that video, to make them more inflammatory and put forward a more effective case for your beliefs?
This is not a "ooooh snap shithead you got caught being a complete fucking hypocrite" moment (well yes it is) but something more: I want you to recognize that your standard for truth is completely flexible depending on the speaker.
Further, reflect on the fact that it's okay for Thunderf00t (or you) to criticize feminism, even though you're not a member of that subculture and you arguably don't understand it at all, even though that's not okay for Sarkeesian.
Notice, anonymous, that your standards shift to reflect your biases. And reconsider how you decide what is true, or a good basis for believing in a truth.--ADtalkModerator 00:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • applauds* Finally someone sat through the actual material!
Some quibbles: 1.) It's worth noting (or maybe not, since it doesn't affect any of your arguments) that some critics have claimed that she isn't actually really playing those Nintendo games, but just posing, because the controllers look like they're not on or something. 2.) 2 wrongs don't make a right. Just because this fellow or Thunderf00t uses falseness to his advantage doesn't mean it's ok for everybody/Sarkeesian to do so. 3.) You can criticise things from outside, but really it's just not on the same level as if you did it from the inside. Levels of expectation and disappointment and all.
Not that any of what I just wrote really matters, of course. Nullahnung (talk) 01:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I wasn't pointing out hypocrisy for its own sake, because I think that's usually a pretty lame thing to point out - the fallibility of humanity ensures that everyone fails to live up to their values in many ways, large and small, but that doesn't negate those values unless that failure is systemic. Instead, I was pointing out that anon's ideas of fairness shift according to convenience, so maybe they should rethink their validity: if mild hypocrisy or contradictions disqualify someone from comment, after all, then anon and Thunderf00t should consider themselves disqualified.
You are very right to say that internal criticism is much more effective than external.--ADtalkModerator 01:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
What her detractors are referring to about posing with a controller is, for a few seconds in her kickstarter video, she can be seen fiddling with an Xbox 360 controller that might not be on, the lighting makes it difficult to tell. At most it's a weird oversight, particularly since she's shown fiddling with two other controllers that are clearly turned on. I'd like Sarkeesian's detractors to tell me if they seriously expect her to make her cameraman wait while she loads up a video game and gets into it. Or if she actually bought what would essentially be three expensive paperweights as part of her grand scheme to make it rich quick. Not that I'm accusing you of being one of her detractors, I'm just posting this for clarity's sake. As for the Nintendo controller, that'd be this image, the source for that is the official Feminist Frequency tumblr page. Radical Pacifist (talk) 08:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I imagine the OP was sparked by Tf00t's recent video. As distasteful as it is to say it now, back when I was first leaving the family cult Tf00t's videos on creationism were a great resource for me. It really makes me sad to see the turgid mess that he now calls videos. The worst part of this is that there probably is something to critique with the A+/feminist movement in atheism, or at least refine but he is so far off the mark that it's not even worth paying attention. Tielec01 (talk) 02:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Bravo to AD for an simply masterful dissection of these arguments. Is Thunderfoot still talking about Sarkeesian? It's shocking how these mild videos have drawn so much flack from just about every male nerdy youtuber. Despite being progressive in gay rights and racial relations, there is a huge blind spot in the geeky segment of our culture (which I generally consider myself a part of) when it comes to women's issues. --Marlow (talk) 16:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

You need $6000 to fight pseudo-science and leave Sarkeesian article w/o valid criticism. No donation from me. 85.131.110.70 (talk) 22:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Anita's Irony Reference

You can't claim it's an internet law when it's only referenced in one blog and has never been used generally. The assertions underlying it are also intellectually dishonest. The backlash to talk of "misogyny" online is from people tired of people twisting themselves into pretzels to claim there's misogyny in places it does not exist. It's the same crap with MRA's claiming "misandry" online where it does not exist. I call them out on it all the time.

Further, the linked "citation" comes from a blogger who is closely aligned with Ms. Sarkeesian. How about we take Fox News quoting Breitbart as "journalistic integrity" too. — Unsigned, by: 206.169.210.153 / talk / contribs

With a little over 1.3 million hits on a search engine starting with 'G' I think your claim to non notability flounders somewhat. It may have started as a reference on one blog but so did Poe's law. The way that it has gone viral speaks volumes. Innocent Bystander (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
*cough, cough* If you search for the exact string, you'll get ~850 results.*cough, cough*
Independently of what you call it, the phenomenon exists, and existed even before Sarkeesian - there are people who's first reaction to "this isn't cool" is "shut up, you fat/ugly/slutty bitch".--ZooGuard (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
There are rules for determining what is and is not an internet law? When did that happen? Last I heard, an internet law was something somebody made up that spread out from there, through other websites. As in, we're allowed to say it's an internet law if we feel like. Because the term has no real meaning. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 08:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, you can't just make up any old internet law in your own little Austrian Cooking forum and then expect people to accept it "because we feel like it". It does need some degree of notoriety on the internet above that. This is another case of "Where do we draw the significance line?", so I tend to not look at this sort of thing too closely (unless it's literally just something someone made up in their own little Spanish Cooking forum). Nullahnung (talk) 10:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] I have to comment on this

I have to comment on this. Without being explicit so I don't drag my employer into this - I pretty much work in this industry in Silicon Valley. Look, the only thing people care about in this area is making money. They'd love to open the market in any way they can. They will exploit anything about human nature to make money. If you know of a good way to open up 50% of marketshare, there's plenty of companies that want your input - all of the companies do. This isn't about men oppressing women, or being sexist, this just making a product to sell. In the 1980s, girls and women simply did not play video games and believe me - corporations tried with disasterous and expensive money losing results - they learn from this. That's just the way it was for whatever societial reason - nerds did and only they did, it was a social stigma - but if people have changed, tell us all how to exploit the 1/2 of the demographic. The accusation that we're all men and sexist bigots it's ludicrous. I have a superior who is smarter than me, more capable than me, harder working than me, more knowledgable than me, about my age, who is female and Indian. She's goddamned brilliant and nobody questions it. I have coworkers that are trangendered, who are cross dressers, gay, black, white, Indian, Muslim, atheists, and even one that is rumored to be a furry. We simply don't care - there's no room for bigotry of any kind in Silicon Valley - that sort of thinking weakens your competitive edge and it's competitive here. Lots of unique people out here, and what many people would just say are outright wierdos. Corporations just design to the maket and they hire anybody that can do it. So please don't talk about the industry seeing women as equals or inferiors - you don't know what you're talking about. Nobody gives a crap out here. We're a meritocracy believe it or not. The reason for the backlash on Anita is she simply doesn't understand what's she's talking about - she's not a technologist, or an engineer, or a marketer. She doesn't have a clue. Work here if you can cut it, find out for yourself. If you worked in this industry, your mouth would be agape with the level of ignorance and arrogance coming from this woman. She has no idea and it's blatant that she doesn't. We are probably the most diverse area in all the United States. Games are a business, that's it, and it's HARD to do. You think you want to make video games? Everybody does, you compete against the entire country for a job, and you get paid crap, work long hours, and for what - to make toys for kids. What type of person do you think wants to do that? Normal ones? Eveybody out here would want to sell more junk to that untapped market if possible. Anita is supposed to be working at EA now which is HQed in Redwood City - about 10 miles from where I live - watch their sales and see if she's actually useful or just a whiny idiot that was hired for PR reasons. Time will tell if she has anything to actually add to the industry other than to get on television and youtube and insult and industry she has no experience with. — Unsigned, by: 108.80.56.226 / talk / contribs 10:03, 26 December 2013

On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. (You can indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line.) Thank you. I don't recall hearing that Sarkeesian had commented on employee demographics within the games/software industry, so I'm not sure how the diversity of your colleagues has any bearing on the issue. As for the old "she is an outsider & has no right to criticise our ways" routine, I think most of us are tired of hearing this argument, & frankly I'm baffled that people can say things like this without realising how idiotic it sounds. You do realise that the people who review games for the mainstream media also generally aren't engineers & "technologists"? You do realise that Sarkeesian didn't critique games from a technical standpoint? WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 12:42, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
So you're not sexists. Wonderful! Stop making sexist products then. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 21:44, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I think you just missed the entire point. Even if the games were the most anti-female list to ever exist, with zero exceptions and zero anti-male tropes, it would still not reflect that the people that make the games are in any way sexist or in any way have sexist motives. It's just a matter of supply and demand. Bearing in mind this guy works in the industry and seems to know a thing or two about it, why would you ignore his points and dismiss him off hand. If you have a problem it's with the audience, not the industry. As he stated above "In the 1980s, girls and women simply did not play video games and believe me - corporations tried with disasterous and expensive money losing results". Unless you can find a way to open up the market and convince more women to game, games will continue to be, what you consider to be, sexist. There has to be a market to expand into. You can't create a market and force people into it.208.87.233.180 (talk) 09:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. The first thing we are going to have to disagree on is that the IP above thoroughly understands the gaming market, and the second thing we are going to have to disagree on is that women are not entering the market in a significant enough way. Nullahnung (talk) 12:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
I thought RW encouraged original research and experts in a field? Anyway, that doesn't matter, my main concern with you comment is your second point. The point the IP above was making is that if women were entering the market in droves and taking up action games then games developers would seek to capitalise on that in order to improve their market share and, all in all, make money. As it stands you are arguing that women are significantly entering the market which, if true, would mean that games with less sexist tones wold already take a larger market share and the production of games wouldreflect this. Understand? 85.115.33.180 (talk) 13:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying, don't be insulting. You think the IP above is an expert, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
"if true, would mean that games with less sexist tones wold already take a larger market share and the production of games wouldreflect this"
Games with less sexist tones ARE taking a larger market share than before. What you may need to realise is that the gaming market is not quick to respond. It will take some time for this industry to mature, and it already is in the process of maturing. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't rail against games like Ride To Hell that are also still coming out... Nullahnung (talk) 13:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, no offence meant. There is no reason to assume the person is an expert, but they're in the industry which certainly counts for a lot. Also, if the market is changing anyway then what's the problem? For example, games like Ride To Hell are fucking terrible. The reason it's terrible isn't due to it being sexist, it's because the developers of the game were lazy and had a low budget. It has poor graphics, poor dialogue, a poor story, poor gameplay and all in all was just pathetic. Rallying around lazy games is just ridiculous. I could just as easily talk about how Ride to Hell's main character has pretty much no reason to do half the shit he does, adding to the "boys are stupid" campaign. Saying that the industry needs to "mature" is also ridiculous. There will always be game developers that take the easy way out. That deosn't however mean that they're immature. They're cost-saving, that's all. It's not maliciously attack people and it's just as bad for men and gamers in general as it is for women when a game like Ride to Hell comes out. 85.115.58.180 (talk) 14:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
You want to talk about actual good games that come with sexist issues? Dragon's Crown. It's a fantastic game with a fantastic art style, fantastic gameplay, etc. etc. . Now, even though the art style is fantastic and really cool, it is still a bit sexist and that is worth talking about. A deeper issue might be the relative shallowness of female Non-Player Characters as opposed to male NPCs, which is familiar, but is still worth criticising. Overall a pretty good game with issues that are worth talking about and seeing how we could have improved the variety and creativity of the game if we didn't have those issues, or if the issue is difficult to change, like for the art style, then at least have a talk about it.
For the gaming industry to mature all that needs to happen at first is more talking. I'm not counting on developers who take the easy way out to lead the industry either, I'm counting on the guys who are willing to be creative. Nullahnung (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I think we're pretty much in agreement. No mass conspiracy. It's more a matter of poor budget than anything. The obvious point the "sex sells" doesn't really need to be said as it goes hand in hand with "they're out to make money". The problem many people see is that this environment is:
1. A product of "patriarchy".
2. In any way intended to be sexist.
I think it's also prett obvious that the level of hype Anita and TF have put around this subject is undue. While it's certainly a phenomenon, I'd hardly call it a "problem". You said it yourself, the industry is already changing. People don't change quickly either mind you, hense the slow changes. Anyway, nice speaking to you. 85.115.33.180 (talk) 14:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'm glad we could come to some sort of compromise. I do agree that things are rarely, if ever, intended to be sexist (and of course I also don't believe that there is a mass conspiracy). The amount of hype may be undue compared to so many other issues we could also be talking about, but it spurs discussion we wouldn't have otherwise had, so I'm actually okay with it. Nice speaking to you too. Nullahnung (talk) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The thing that always strikes me about this is that the amount of hype almost entirely came from the gamer comunity. After all, Ms Sarkeesian had a pretty low profile before the death threats. What makes Ms Sarkeesian special is not what she says, it's the gaming comunity's reaction to it. Placeholder (talk) 16:28, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I'm okay with that. And who better for the hype to come from, honestly. I shows that people care and they are willing to discuss it. The violent threats were a kicker, but the response from the rest of the gaming community was an integral part in the hype too. Nullahnung (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Question

How does one "strictly censor" their own Twitter account?--AndYourFoesShallRejoice... (talk) 17:00, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

(I think) you can block tweets to yourself from showing up on your page and block your reply/rts as they are needed. Zero (talk) 17:07, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
It's unclear what do you mean. It's also still unclear why "strictly censor" is used to describe her behavior, whatever it is.--AndYourFoesShallRejoice... (talk) 18:39, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
"limits access and replies to her tweets"? PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.Moderator 18:50, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] One person is misleading therefor their movement is inherently flawed

What's the name for this phenomenon, wherein an extraordinarily elaborate campaign is staged to target some things said by one person, as if it destroys an entire movement? You see it more in politics, but the sheer extent of the hatred for Sarkeesian outpaces anything I've seen. Ikanreed (talk) 19:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Poisoning the well (not really)? Cherry Picking? Quote Mining? I dunno. I'm not even sure a term for this exists yet. Zero (talk) 20:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Nutpicking. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 16:05, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, it's mighty disorganized for a campaign (let alone an "extraordinarily elaborate campaign"), and in my experience you're attributing an unwarranted amount of common purpose to this simple case of "gamers raging on the internet". (Unless you know something I don't know, if so, please explain.) Nullahnung (talk) 20:47, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Elaborate doesn't mean organized. A campaign can come from seeing one person outraged on the internet, and going and being another one yourself. It's not like most of her critics are people who have been "tapped into" the feminist movement as a whole for any long period of time. Scale is as relevant as cohesiveness here. It's not without warrant to say that at least a fair percentage of people who are on this boat have said "Anita Sarkeesian is what's wrong with feminism" or something very similar, as if she were definitional in some way. And I'm more interested in a word for the idea than debating whether this case is an exemplar of it. Ikanreed (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Likewise there have been many disgruntled gamers going on about how "Anita Sarkeesian isn't a real feminist", denying her a label they don't really understand to begin with.
That is the problem with non-cohesiveness. You get a lot of variety, some that will make your case, some that will contradict your case. Nullahnung (talk) 22:56, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Isn't this just a bit fanboyish?

The only things that I know about this lady are what I have just read in this article. But it really does read as though it were written by a fanboy.

Before I receive any flames I would point out that I have no knowledge of anything factually incorrect in the article because I know nothing about her either way. I'm just surprised to find something on RW which is so relentlessly complementary.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 16:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Any criticism I could agree with that she has received isn't actually relevant to the topic of feminism in pop culture that she examines, but rather just personal dirt. We are not a site on celebrity scandal dirt, so those have not been included.
Any criticism that was actually relevant to the topic of feminism that she examines comes from people RW doesn't agree with, so that's why she gets so much positive treatment here, to show that we are against those people so to speak. Nullahnung (talk) 16:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
That said, I agree with you that it reads too fanboyish. Just saying why I think we have it like that, not saying I like it. Nullahnung (talk) 16:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
So we have to abandon snarky POV if people we (or some of us) like are being criticized? As I said I have no horse in this race and I note above that there are strong opinions but it doesn't read like one of our usual articles.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
It's not that we've deliberately tried to keep snark out of the article, it's more that nobody has bothered to put any in. Also, the original article was written by Hamilton, and nobody has bothered to change the fanboyish tone since. Lazy bastards, all of you!(<-hypocrite) Nullahnung (talk) 19:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
That's not actually true. There have been several examples, including a recent one that pointed out that in the past 2 years Anita has done fuck all with the $160K she got from kickstarter. It was reverted almost instantly, like pretty much every edit that goes against the "status quo" around here. Hobby (talk) 21:10, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I tried to put that criticism in, but people are saying what she does with her Kickstarter money is more personal dirt than stuff that would be relevant to the feminist examinations of pop culture topic. I can sort of see that reasoning, so I let it be. Nullahnung (talk) 21:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Except that character does seem to matter in other contexts when talking about people taking a stance as an opinion maker in the public, political, or moral sphere. To give an example in a related context, consider the article on Hitchens when talking about women. This is off-topic to the central positions that have cast him in a political light (like atheism) but is included anyway. Notice how "views" is scarequoted at the title of that section to lead us into the idea that this is dirty, irrational stuff. Another example that relates to this article in a different way is the article on TheAmazingAtheist. Beside reading like a character attack in general, the content on his e-begging is similar in substance to the criticism of Anita's kickstarter campaign. That is, money was petitioned for a website, which materialized, but was inadequate to expectations, especially considering the amount of money which was donated. I'm not saying either of these characters are good people, but that the standards about what information is relevant when discussing a personality should not be based on hate or love. If there is a standard that disallows the dirt on Anita but allows it in other articles with a more negative tone, we need to be clear about what that standard is. Shirtsleeves (talk) 21:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I also find it rather odd to consider this "personal dirt", considering it was a project funded by almost 7000 people. I'm not saying that we need to write a section on "what she could be doing with the money", but writing a bit on how she certainly hasn't delivered what she promised (even $6000 worth of content) should at least be mentioned. Hobby (talk) 07:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
We'd be criticizing her for being lazy, which doesn't seem worth it. The thing is on Kickstarter you typically don't control how much money you get. You set a lower limit of how much money you think you want to use and then how much you actually end up using depends on how generous people are and your personal ability to spend it wisely. That's quite irrelevant to the topic of "do her videos have a valid point to make?" I don't know what's going on with the TAA page, as I have not much interest in that page and don't intend to fully read it anytime soon, but I'd let it go on this page. Nullahnung (talk) 10:48, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of, people accusing her of being a scam artist and a professional victim, then supporting that claim with the fact that she has done very little in the way of actually using the money or following though with her series. Especially as her video quality, length, frequency and style have all remained pretty much the same. At a glance it's almost as if the budget is unchanged, which leads people to wonder, what the hell did she even need $6K for? Never mind $160K. Hobby (talk) 11:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
You know, time is money. If she's a really inefficient video maker, and has to feed herself for the whole of her planned series, then it becomes somewhat more understandable to ask for 6000 dollars. That people ended up giving her 160000 doesn't really oblige her to do more from a Kickstarter perspective, though it kinda does oblige her to do more from a generosity perspective. Still, we'd just be criticising her of being lazy.
Calling attention to her victimhood is a separate issue. If donators choose to give her that much attention and money because people are swearing and threatening down her efforts, then that's their choice, why should we concern ourselves with that? Again, doesn't seem worth it. Nullahnung (talk) 11:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Two things. One, her video quality has actually skyrocketed. In side by side comparisons of her old videos, lighting is better, audio is sharper and CGI quality is smooth. To say that she's been sitting on it and profiting from the gullible is just dishonest. Second, why is it that everyone who seems to bitch heavily about her series and the money she got has likely never kicked the project? Did you? Do you have the right to complain she's wasting your money? Zero (talk) 13:36, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

1. The claim that her video quality has "skyrocketed" is bullshit. I've seen both her old and her new videos and the only thing the older ones are missing is experience. As you look through them you'll see that several videos that were after she took a break but before she had the money are the same quality as her newer videos. In fact, the only thing you could possibly be referring to is her low frame rate, pixel art video where she advertised her concept for a game (which she would then sell btw, hence the word "advertised"). It was however, only a minute long. She also used to do at least one video a month.
2. I actually came in too late to kick her project, but does that mean I should be banned from criticising her? What kind of fucked up logic is that? Unless they take my money I'm not allowed to say that they wasted other people's money...which should be put in contrast with TAA who has several cash projects listed on his RW page as scams. Did you give him money? Do you have the right to criticise him? See how bullshit that line of reasoning is? Hobby (talk) 14:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I've seen people do higher quality videos with a much tighter budget (just an average writer), and not even kickstarted. She's not the most efficient content producer. Still, that doesn't warrant mentioning.
I don't know why we need to have that stuff over on TAA's page, if we do have it (I'm thoroughly uninterested in reading it right now), but I don't support having it here on a page I'm actually interested in. Nullahnung (talk) 14:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Another criticism on her is that she took her gameplay content from various Let's Players without asking their permission, which I find to be incredibly rude and lazy. But that too is just personal dirt, saying she's rude and lazy, so I can see why we wouldn't want to mention it. Nullahnung (talk) 14:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Here's a simple citation. [1] And a better one. [2]
And I don't believe that for a second. We criticize TAA's projects because unlike Anita he produced nothing of value with them.
Third, I'd be interested to see any proof of her ripping from Let's Play videos. People keep parroting it, I've yet to see it backed up. Zero (talk) 14:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Here's the investigation people keep citing for the LP stuff: http://victorsopinion.blogspot.be/2013/07/anitas-sources.html If you can show me why I shouldn't trust it, I will take back what I said about her being rude and lazy.
About her budget-utilization... if she manages to respond convincingly as to what she has done with the money, then I will also take back what I said about her being an inefficient and lazy content producer.
But anyways, none of this is relevant to the article, I have to repeat, this just pertains to whether or not I'm going to take back my words. Nullahnung (talk) 14:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
What? Zero, one of your sources claims that a professional camera would cost $5000. You'd have to go REALLY top of the line to spend that much. Your own source also points out that Anita certainly hasn't spend as much as she received. Even if we assume she's spend top dollar on everything, she still has at least 90% of the money left, according to your sources.
Nullahnung, how is this not relevant? She was given all that money and yet still steals content without asking or paying. Both her videos and her logo use stolen content, which is also funny because Zero's source said "The videos, produced in a nightly news style with plenty of clips from the games being discussed". She still asks for donations and subscriptions on her website (as if she needed any more). She has completely failed to even remotely keep up with the level of video output that's to be expected from someone who was just given a lot of cash and hired people to help her make videos. Is 1 video a week so much to ask? 1 a month would be enough for fucks sake. This is not just laziness, this is flat out disregard for the people that put her on the pedestal. Some youtubers manage 1 video a day, yet a well funded vlogger with a producer can't manage 1 a month. Hobby (talk) 16:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I have no stake in this discussion, but most professional photographers/videographers would vehemently disagree with your idea that $5000 is "REALLY top of the line". - Grant (Talk) 16:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
(EC)You're just repeating the point that she is disappointingly lazy and inefficient. I don't see how "betraying the reasonable expectations of donators" in any way relates to the discussion of feminist arguments in pop culture that we are concerning ourselves with. Nullahnung (talk) 17:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
It definitely relates since the implication is that giving money to anyone proposing to solve feminist issues seems a rather shitty idea. Apparently people will even argue that they have no accountability since it was the thought that counted. --Someon (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
No, that's not a logical implication at all. And legally, there is in fact no accountability here, since the money was freely given without conditions. Now, ethically, a bit higher production rate after that kind of overfunding might have been called for, but I wouldn't exactly call it Sarkeesian defrauding her funders or anything. They knew how the Kickstarter principle works. Octo8 (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


[edit] TAA

A sideline, because I noticed something about "we" criticizing his projects: The sections in question were originally added by a drive-by BoN who seems to be fixated on the TAA and more than a little ED-influenced. Up until now, they continue to stand out as inserts, even retaining the non-standard section title style (on RW, only the first word in section titles starts with a capital). I won't be very disappointed if they disappear or get radically rewritten and re-framed.--ZooGuard (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Snark

Since this discussion kinda drifted to other points, here is my take on snark: The article has it. It's just not directed at Sarkeesian. But IMO, that's okay. After all, we are not a neutral encyclopedia - we do shamelessly take sides. So it is IMO entirely within SPOV to get snarky about Sarkeesian's detractors instead about herself. Octo8 (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

It started with my accusation of fanboyism - by which I mean that it is uncritically, even gushingly, positive.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 17:49, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree with Bob on this. Simply leaving out every possible criticism and calling it gossip or not important is a poor excuse. Hobby (talk) 20:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, I would also like to have a less fanboyish article and in addition some relevant criticism is always appreciated. I don't have the leisure time to come up with something right now, though. Nullahnung (talk) 20:47, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
My point is that SPOV only means there should be snark involved. It doesn't say at whom it should be targeted. It doesn't need to be the person the article is about. So "gushingly positive" articles could still hold up that policy. The reason the article is so pro-Sarkeesian is because the wiki (or, well, at least the editors who have worked on it so far) are pro-Sarkeesian. And the wiki never made pretences to being neutral. Octo8 (talk) 20:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the mission even suggest that criticizing Sarkeesian is necessary at all? After all, it's not like we're trying to make a WP-style article about her since WP's already got one of those. If we're talking mission, then she's no big deal, but the primarily sexist/authoritarian backlash is fair game. --Kels (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
True, true. We don't need to have any criticism. At the same time fanboyism is... unsightly, as evidenced by non-biased (or as close to non-biased as you are going to probably get) readers like Bob_M. But in principle, the article is fine.
If someone were to go seek for criticism to add, it would have to specifically relate to talking about the topic of sexism in pop culture which she is missional for. Nullahnung (talk) 23:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm a bit late to this discussion but - picking up on Bob's original point - I'm not in the least surprised to see fanboy content at RW. Check out, as examples, our articles on Stephen Fry, Terry Pratchett, George Carlin, and the now-deleted pieces on Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore. I would argue that this article has more mission-relevant substance than any of those. Re criticism of Sarkeesian, there's no reason to exclude it as long as it's fair & intelligent criticism. Most of the critiques that have been added to & removed from the article so far have been mutton-headed smears like 'she hasn't played enough video games to talk about them' etc. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, Stephen Fry, Terry Pratchett and George Carlin are all pretty famous and in the entertainment business, but still a fair point. Nullahnung (talk) 23:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Violation of RationalWiki's alleged purposes

I must say I'm not a user of the RationalWiki, I stumbled on it as I was Googling for Anita's older college lecture videos, and felt curious about what difference this article might make from Wikipedia's, and also because I'm deeply interested in following the case of Anita Sarkeesian, and lastly because the Rational part of the name got me curious. However, I found this article to be curiously uninformative, much like the one on Wikipedia, except that the latter is actually well written and well organized. This article in this Wiki is no more than an attempt at promoting her propaganda and pseudo-analyses, paranoia and delusions of entitlement (and ironically sexism, which can be made a strong case for as well) and her victimhood strategy, and devoid of any critical analysis of the case at hand.

This is what the home page claims RationalWiki to be about:

   Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement. 
   Documenting the full range of crank ideas.
   Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.
   Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media. 

I failed to detect any of the above in this article. Since, as I mentioned, I'm not a user of this Wiki, I don't feel very inclined to be concerned about this, but more inclined to shrug this website away and move on. For that reason, and also because the issue seems to have been extensively discussed and exposed in this same page, I won't bother elaborating. My main point is that this article violates all the premises by which this Wiki is claimed to exist. However, this wiki could very well become a place where all the information pertaining her and her campaign could be gathered, ideally in an impartial and mature manner, for everyone's convenience. -Skaruts (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Scream!! (talk) 15:23, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
"However, this wiki could very well become a place where all the information pertaining her and her campaign could be gathered, ideally in an impartial and mature manner, for everyone's convenience."
Information without opinion gathered in an impartial and mature manner is the job of Wikipedia. You're complaining in the wrong place.
The only comment you've made that hasn't already been discussed here is whether or not explorations of sexism within media fit within the mission of RationalWiki. Nullahnung (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh, my mistake, then. You see, the front page is misleading and you might want to adress that, I thought I was speaking to Rational people in a RationalWiki. I'm terribly sorry to disturb your slumber. Won't happen again. -Skaruts (talk) 23:51, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
And Drink! Zero (talk) 23:52, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:I_thought_this_was_supposed_to_be_RATIONALWiki Nullahnung (talk) 00:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm in the Heroes of the Storm alpha, and you are not, FYI. Hipocrite 15:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

Someone vandalized the Anita Sarkeesian page and removed all negative content. please help. — Unsigned, by: 71.89.180.198 / talk / contribs

Uh, nobody did that. Can you show the specific revision? Zero (talk - contributions) 12:14, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Her latest video in the series has some taking-things-out-of-context (like she mentions that you can kill hookers in some games and kill them for money, but actually those were games where you could kill pretty much any NPC and also for money). That's a negative, but I don't feel like there is any good way of putting such minor criticism in the article, so I let it be. Nullahnung (talk) 02:40, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of material used in arguments.

Many people have already pointed this out, but many of the major criticisms of Anitas work have been about her inherent incorrect interpretation of source materials. For example, one of the games she often refers to as "Objectifying women" is Hitman:Absolution, in which she states (while showing a scene of someone doing it) that the game has you kill innocent women in revealing clothing and dispose of their body, yet the game actively discourages you from killing people, especially innocents, and attacking the women there usually alerts the security, screwing you over. In the clip, the player pointlessly drags one of the corpses over the other in a circle for a few minutes before dumping the body in a container far from the scene where they were killed, suggesting that Anita has purposely chosen a clip that completely misrepresents the game and exploited the game mechanics in order to prove her point that the game is sexist. In the game, the entire plot revolves around you avenging the assasination of a women anyway since Agent 47 was very close emotionally to her, suggesting that Anita either hasn't played the game at all or is lying purposely. Another game she uses is WatchDogs, in a scene where the player walks through a human trafficking auction with naked women on display, claiming that this encourages the objectification of women. In the game, Aidan Pearce clearly shows his disgust for it through his diologue, manages to save one of the women there, and can complete an entire mission set on bringing the trafficking ring down and killing those who set it up (Which is part of the main mission), yet Anita says that the scene is in a strip club and is horrifically sexist. Wut. RationalWiki members, just because she fights for a good cause, doesn't mean she isn't bullshitting. Actually watch some of her work before siding with her. — Unsigned, by: 86.183.5.63 / talk / contribs

I think you have a point. I've caught her bullshitting with source material before, but wasn't sure how to include that in the article. If you can provide a link to the video where she commits said mistakes, maybe I can review it to verify what you're saying. I may include a sentence about how she makes conclusions that don't follow from the examples she shows off. Nullahnung (talk) 19:27, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Weak points of Sarkeesian's analysis

After watching the part of Tropes vs. Video Games that talks about "Women as Background Decoration", there was something that bothered me about various points she made about female NPCs, notably prostitutes, but I couldn't think of how that could in any way be relevant to our article.

Then I read this blog post that expresses the same kind of concerns that had bothered me. It tries to critique Sarkeesian's video as free from bias as possible (of course it's not possible, but it's a good try, relatively seen): http://dpadblog.com/2014/06/17/critique-of-sarkeesians-women-as-background-decoration-video/

Basically, a problem Sarkeesian has, I think, is that due to her not really experiencing the games she is supposed to examine in depth (with the whole watching Let's Plays instead of playing herself thing), she may not have had a complete view of what role NPCs exactly play in video games. Owing to that she draws some conclusions about things in games being detrimental to women that are unwarranted. (If all corpses of NPCs you have killed disappear in video games due to technical limitations, why is it notable that the corpses of NPC prostitutes you have killed disappear? Why is it notable that you can rob dead NPC prostitutes of their money when you can rob all dead NPCs of their money? etc.) I think maybe this warrants a short note that her analysis isn't as on point as one would like sometimes.

What does anyone else think? Am I way off, or am I right on some things but still missing the point, or am I making an elephant out of a mouse, or what? Nullahnung (talk) 21:51, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this is wrong, if a bit nitpicky. I want to sit down and actually play this level myself before I say mention it, but even then I'm a bit of the impression it's too weak. Zero (talk - contributions) 15:45, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I didn't really specify any particular game (I have specified GTA:SA before). Which level from which game do you mean? Nullahnung (talk) 15:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh. Hitman: Absolution. Zero (talk - contributions) 15:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh right, the one that Thunderf00t is making a fuss about. I don't really know enough on that one myself. Would be good if you could get a personal impression and then share what you think. Nullahnung (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Worse?

In the article I found this a little odd, Worse, someone actually created a game called Beat up Anita Sarkeesian which allowed players to simulate doing exactly what the game's title implied. This was compared to threats, spurious reporting of her videos and attempted "doxxing," all of which are surely worse.

Am I the only one who thinks attempts to censor the videos and possibly even expose the person to real life violence are worse than an offensive game, even if the attempts failed?

Perhaps it is better, instead of "worse," to write "more amusingly."

Fonzie (talk) 16:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The game embodies a disgusting sentiment. It may not be "worse", whatever scale we are using for "better or worse", but it certainly is not "amusing". Though "more amusing" does not automatically mean "amusing", since it is a relative term, people tend to read into it the implication that it be "amusing". So to protect such readers that are not sufficiently pedantic with the language they see from taking it the wrong way we should in no way write "more amusingly". Instead we should maybe just replace "worse" with something neutral that doesn't convey a judgement. Nullahnung (talk) 16:24, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Like: "Additionally" or "Also" ... MarmotHead (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Easy to clarify. It's intuitively worse, in that someone went to that much effort to perpetuate the threat. It's usually pretty easy to dismiss threats as low-effort trolling by lazy people(on the internet). Going to that extreme kinda makes it seem like someone is dedicated to the threat, and might follow through. Spurious logic, sure, but it's there. Ikanreed (talk) 17:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Ikanreed makes a good point. Doesn't mean I'm gonna revert my edit, but it's a fair point. Nullahnung (talk) 17:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Art Theft

Should we acknowledge that Anita stole someone's art:

http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/anita-sarkeesian-fanart-plagiarism-theft/

http://cowkitty.net/post/78808973663/you-stole-my-artwork-an-open-letter-to-anita

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-corruption/anita-sarkeesian-steals-intellectual-property-sells-it-then-ignores-demands-of-victim/

John Pannozzi (talk) 18:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. On the other hand, she's claimed fair use for it, just like with the borrowed LP material that we decided we wouldn't mention. The problem with mentioning it is the same with the LP material, namely that it could have been an honest act of rudeness in the name of fair use and has nothing to do with sexism on the internet, which is the topic that we wrote this article for in the first place. Nullahnung (talk) 18:46, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Short answer, no. We went over this charge at Wikipedia and decided it was not notable enough to include. Worse, these articles are all leaving out that Anita did reach out to her and fixed the image to make amends. It is not worth our time since it's too inconsequential to anyone. Zero (talk - contributions) 18:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you can charge the first article for "leaving out". It mentions that Anita has reached out to Smith and that they were working on coming to terms with the issue. At the time of writing the author may not have had the latest details about the outcome of said outreach. Nullahnung (talk) 18:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Then why report half the issue? If we write everything about it, it would actually serve as points in her favor as fixing a mistake. Zero (talk - contributions) 18:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
That's not what I implied. I was changing the topic towards whether you can justifiedly charge the dailydot article writer with "leaving out". Yes, I was being an annoying pedant going on a side tangent again, as I often do. For that I apologize, I'm not proud about it. Nullahnung (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────This guy just did the same drive-by on Wikipedia. He's not working with good intentions it seems. Zero (talk - contributions) 19:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

The art is only "stolen" to the same extent as the various game companies' copyrighted images/footage which Sarkeesian uses in the same context within her videos (which, given the nature of her analysis, I'm sure many of these companies would prefer her not to if they had a legitimate case for copyright infringement). If these images are fair use, then so is her use of the fan-art. If anything, the fan-artist is more likely to be infringing copyright/intellectual property by creating this artwork in the first place than Sarkeesian is by reusing it, but this is a legal grey area that tends to be tolerated (much more so than women critiquing sexism within video games, it would appear). €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Minor but probably inconsequential correction on "If these images are fair use, then so is her use of the fan-art." The two are used in very different contexts. The clips and images used in-video are used for the purpose of commentary, while this fan artwork has been used for the purpose of branding. FWIW, the other images used on the logo are official art, and arguably form part of the oeuvre she's commenting on. So there is a continuum of strength of the fair use claims, the strongest being the in-show material, next the official artwork on the logo, and the fan artwork weakest. That said, none of us are in any position to state definitively whether the claims are valid or not. More importantly, the part that makes it probably inconsequential is that we still don't know whether it's deliberate dishonesty (which might be worth including) or simple carelessness (which almost certainly isn't). Cock-up before conspiracy, and all that. — Unsigned, by: 86.152.1.96 / talk / contribs
Generally speaking, it's off mission regardless. If someone is actually sued, charged, or convicted, it might be worth noting on the subject's page due to sheer importance. Random accusations(that don't highlight hypocritically) just aren't ever worth discussing. Ikanreed (talk) 20:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I just heard people criticize Anita on a forum I frequent that is generally made up of fairly sensible folks, so I was worried that there was a dark side to her that was being suppressed on this wiki.John Pannozzi (talk) 00:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] What Anita did not show you

Anita showed a clip from the 80s SMB anime special with Peach screaming and running behind Mario. She selectively showed this to portray a false narrative of Peach being helpless in that anime special. I actually watched the whole thing, and there are contrasting scenes which dispute this. This leads me to judge she either didn't watch the whole thing (inadequate research, lazy) or omitted it to suit her narrative:

What happened in the show isn't Mario being an uber-brave hero and Peach being a damsel. It's realistic fear of a GIANT DRAGON by both the plumber and the princess. In Peach's case, she's overwhelmed because she spent who knows how long battling Bowser's massive army and just jumped through dimensions. Even then, she only ran behind Mario once. Mario immediately ran behind her after experiencing no prior stress, and he did it a second time after having time to collect his wits. So if anything, the male character is being portrayed as weaker and more cowardly than the female.

Anita also conveniently leaves out how Luigi is portrayed as a carefree drunk who just floats around sipping sake when there's a kingdom to rescue. No misandry there. Tyc (talk) 23:27, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Realistic? Misandry? Are you being serious?
I don't see any of those clips really showing the Princess as other than a damsel in distress. What you describe as Peach attacking Bowser looks like a lift from King Kong with the girl struggling feebly against a giant monster. I see the Princess is hiding behind Mario in the last three of those clips. When he runs around to hide behind her instead in the last two, it's just a comic reversal to amuse the audience by making our hero look ridiculous; it doesn't really affect how she is portrayed. I haven't watched the film, but is the gist of it basically that the Princess is in peril & Mario saves the day? ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 00:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
And gets a pretty undeserved case of blue balls. Zero (talk - contributions) 05:27, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Women as Background Decoration part 2

While I thought this episode was pretty good, I have to say one line just resonated with me so well I...feel kinda moved by it. "What does it say about our culture when games routinely bend or break the laws of physics and no one bats an eye. When Dragons, Ogres and magic are inserted into historical influenced settings without objection. We're perfectly willing to suspend our disbelief when it comes to multiple lives, superpowers, health regeneration and the ability to carry dozens of weapons in a massive invisible backpack. But somehow the idea of a world without sexual violence and exploitation is deemed too strange and too bizarre to be believeable." Wow. Zero (talk - contributions) 18:53, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

So? Suspension of disbelief is very selective to begin with. However, the "sexual violence and exploitation" is mostly there be exciting/intense/escapist and hence serves the same general purpose as the dragons. Of course, premises vary from work to work - in Game of Thrones, for example, while the sex and violence are definitely made with entertainment in mind, their main purpose is to contribute to the "unadorned realism" of the series, that is then mixed with the fantastical/speculative elements. 93.223.20.206 (talk) 21:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Horseshit. There's nothing realistic about the sex scenes in Game of Thrones. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Who taught you that shyte! 93.223.20.206 (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't get it. What games does this apply to, that sexual violence and exploitation is deemed indispensable for the sake of realism? They are simply part of games to fulfil male desires (in the sense of the gamer feels more motivated to go against the bad guy if the bad guy did something to beautiful women). The realism argument doesn't really apply. Nullahnung (talk) 19:19, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I'll save the explanation. Start here. Zero (talk - contributions) 19:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I've now watched it. (note when I say sexual violence, I actually mean sexual violence & exploitation, but too bothersome to write all of it every time) She leads into it by saying that games containing the sexual violence depict it as something normal, a fact of life. (A bit of a contradiction to earlier in the video when she claimed that those games represent it as something exceptional only done by exceptional bad guys and that the theme is actually quite common in real life.) Thus the games assume it to be "realistic". And then the quote that you quoted above, comparing it to dragons and ogres and then saying that we somehow feel the need for depictions of sexual violence for believability in our games. I simply disagree with her on this. We don't need any of that. It's just that in some of our AAA games they decided to include it. Nullahnung (talk) 19:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Notably she also says that games lack a narrative about the struggle of women against said sexual violence, which would represent hope of a world without said violence. That's a fair point. The absence of such a narrative doesn't mean you can just conclude that we would find it bizarre or unbelievable, though. It's just that the game makers didn't consider spending the resources on such further sophistication of their dumb action game. Nullahnung (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I think she makes two separate points regarding sexualized and gendered violence. One is the overly caricaturised evil dudes with blackened hearts that do this(as opposed to normal everyday people)[Let me put it here that I think the Watch_dogs scenes were depicting of vengeful ex-partners and this is not an exampl of this but her other examples hold very well.]. The other is people say to her that if the games didn't have these tropes, they just wouldn't give a "realistic" vibe(and let's face it we've all heard of this hand waving of the issue.)
"It's just that the game makers didn't consider spending the resources on such further sophistication of their dumb action game." Here's the deal though, they do spend resources to create scenery and scripted events that rely on the overly used tropes, such as the sexually-welcoming looking women brutalised, as shown in the video, opposed to what you see in their male counterparts. Yes, they can decide that they decide to take the easiest form of creating an emotionally-charged and tittilating environment, that doesn't mean we can't criticise and put pressure on them for it and request better quality.Shadow Nirvana (talk) 20:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, so about the two separate points, the first one, fair enough, the second one... nope, haven't heard that type of hand-waving before.
About the usage of tropes as the easy way out. Sure, criticise it. I believe Marlow compared it to criticising Michael Bay movies for being overly shallow (explosions + super models) and I'd agree with that. Nullahnung (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the point of Sarkeesian. Most of the exemples of couple violences are here to demonstrate how the bad guy is really bad. Anyway the hero is encouraged to stop this violence. In some way, the game is learning the player, he should try to stop any violence he sees. --Vouze (talk) 17:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Her argument is more "Why is it women who are most commonly in these situations?" Motivating the player is one thing, but it is so cheap that it isn't worth it. Zero (talk - contributions) 18:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
If that's her point, then why not complain of equally "cheap" "shortcuts" to establishing someone as "evil", e.g. classics such as killing kids, beating up the weak, stabbing/shooting someone from behind etc. etc.?
The problem is that Sarkeesian seems to insist on tying her cherry picked examples to some implicit or explicit level of misogyny among game designers/gamers/society as a whole. Her arguments seem to fail the "turn 'em around test": If I applied such a Sarkeesian'esque analysis to most violent video games, I'd have to conclude that they're made by and for a rabid group of man-haters as by far the largest proportion of opponents the player has to beat, slash, shoot, or blow up are male...
As already mentioned Sarkeesian also appears to at least sometimes employ a kind of "heads you lose, tails I win"-logic in which, if realistically depicted, sexual violence against women is trivialising the issue, and if absent or muted it's a sign of game designers knuckling under to a societal taboo and trying to deny the issue.
I admit to not being much of a Sarkeesian afficionado, but from what I've seen so far, her arguments seem to revolve around rather shallow and cherry picked pop cultural analyses followed by a sort of Giorgio Tsoukalos-style, "I'm not saying it's due to misogyny... but it's due to misogyny!"-conclusions. Not that misogyny is wholly absent, but Sarkeesian seems to be able to make pretty much everything into an example of it.
ScepticWombat (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Look, her analyses and examples may not be on point all the time, but she does have good points as well. Why is it that women are so often the ones who are damselled in video games? There is no good reason, really. It would be more interesting if there was less of a gender imbalance in that regard. Why is it women who are so often used as titillating background characters? There's no good reason, really, it's just that men are still the majority of consumers and those who make games think it may appeal to them more to do things that way. Nullahnung (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I absolutely agree that such depictions of women are (way too) easy shortcuts, but my problem is that Sarkeesian seems to depict them as expressions of misogyny as well. Using that logic, the "hulkification" (as I guess the opposite of damselling might be called) of male characters is indicative of man-hating. The absurdity of this counter-claim illustrates why the larger implications (i.e. beyond sloppy writing) that Sarkeesian seems intent on drawing from her analyses is bunk. In terms of your example: Why is it men who are so often depicted as brainless mountains of muscle? Or why are men so often the stock mooks to be gunned down? If Sarkeesian framed her analyses as being about sloppy writing and personal preferences of topic and style of games, that would be a different matter. However, she frames them as being, to put it bluntly, about gender warfare, which is where the wheels come off her cart in my eyes. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
I think you are unfairly strawmanning her a bit when you say that she frames them as being about gender warfare, I don't think her opinion is that extreme. As for the men being cannonfodder thing, it would be nice if we could get past the societal stigma of "omg, you can't hit girls, they are weaker, it is immoral!" in video games and it would only be a bit of equality if women could be cannon fodder as well. You see, it would actually elevate the status of women in video games if they could at least get recognized as worthy-enough enemies to become cannon fodder. About the hulkification thing, that's false equivalence and I'll let Jim Sterling speak to that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR9UMgOFeLw Nullahnung (talk) 11:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
I did say that I was putting it bluntly, and perhaps too much so. As regards the female cannon fodder thing, I think that if such a game was produced, it wouldn't take two weeks until Sarkeesian would've made a video calling it "trivialisation of violence against women" or something similar (hence, why I called it "heads you lose, tails I win"-logic).
The irony is that women are actually far more likely to be bosses than mooks, which kind of suggest that they're considered to be more worthy opponents than males, but then an alternate argument would be that this shows that powerful women are viewed as exceptional aberrations by game designers (and I have a hunch as to which interpretation Sarkeesian would favour...).
As to Jim Sterling, I wasn't claiming that men are being objectified, but that they're being stereotyped. Sterling's argument is that male characters are usually not being made into sexual objects and I agree with that. However, while male characters aren't (often) objects of sexual desire, they are, as we seem to agree, the targets of the majority of violent activity and are not supposed to solve most problems in anyway except KILLKILLKILLKILLKILLKILL!!! This is why I disagree with Sterling calling this "idealisation" (unless he either thinks that the "Hulk smash"-type is deliberately being presented as something to strive for, or is using "ideal" in the Weberian sense of "ideal type"). Sterling also talks only of protagonists, which I think makes his video less than useful in the context of our discussion, because I was not only, or even mainly, talking about protagonists. My point is that these are in large part "genre problems" with shooters/hack 'n slash and similar games. That is probably why Sterling's video side is composed mainly of screenshots from them, alternating with the kind of semi-softporn games where, for instance, beach volley seems to be almost an afterthought... These games are rarely trying to tell much of a story.
Thus we're back to preferences and style: If I don't like dumb "blast everything in sight"-games and think that they're dominating the market, then I'd complain about that. What I wouldn't do would be latching onto the fact that their stories are so sloppy, short and clichéd that they'd fit on the back of a matchbox and turn the narrative shortcuts they employ into an argument of some sort of male chauvinism.
Oh, and for the record, I'm not a particular fan of shooting games (they tend to become rather repetitive), I do agree that loads of games could do with far better writing, and I think that sexual eye candy (and flashy graphics too, come to think of it) are far too often used as substitutes for good gameplay and/or storylines. All of these factors are, in my eyes, hardly a gender matter. ScepticWombat (talk) 12:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Let's not throw around words that are charged with different meanings depending on who uses them, like misogyny, let's just call it "systemic bias in representation of women in video games which favours men over women" for the sake of our discussion, which I believe is close enough to what Sarkeesian means.
Your predictions as to Sarkeesian's reaction to the cannon fodder thing, well, we can't say for sure unless it happens, now can we, so let's not make such assumptions.
As for women being more likely to be bosses than mooks... I feel like women are also underrepresented in the bosses category. The fact that they are less underrepresented in the bosses than in the mook category still doesn't make that a good thing, wouldn't you say? It is merely a lesser underrepresentation that is therefore less worthy of note than the mook underrepresentation.
It appears we can at least agree that women are more objectified than men. I do agree that men are stereotyped in some ways, but I think this will solve itself to an extent once we can bring in more diversity in terms of gender representation. I don't think Sarkeesian needs to talk about problems of male representation in video games, because her video series specifically focuses on the representation of women in video games.
As for other types of games not having as much of a problem with gender representation as shallow, shooty AAA titles, you've got a point there. Nullahnung (talk) 13:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of this article

This article really seems one sided. I came here after reading an article about a Youtuber Thunderfoot (which held a good deal of, mostly earned, criticism) to find that the article on Sarkeesian has no criticism of her work or ideologies (which is not non existent), but rather deals in attacks on her and praises her work. I'm not arguing that she has some good points about poor female characters, because she indeed made some good points, but this doesn't seem very, very one sided as she has been criticized in a rational manner. Is this because of deletion, as someone posted here? 178.221.180.232 (talk) 23:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC):

This article reads like a personal rant. It is full of unprofessional statements like "the shitstirring". The article does not allow any reporting of a counter-narrative such as the wide criticism Sarkeesian received for her treatment of "Hitman" where she purposely sets out to murder some strippers and desecrate their bodies, even though the game penalizes such behavior, and Sarkeesian inflames her rhetoric by insinuating the gamers experience a perverse sexual high from gameplay they actually do not pursue. Her mentality is something like this: Streets are designed so that I could mow down pedestrians with my car, watch as I mow down pedestrians with my car, conclusion: all drivers are murders given incentive by the street designers to kill pedestrians. I should also add that any attempts to fill in Sarkeesians biography or to mention controversy or criticism here are immediately deleted. It's ironic that a 'rational' wiki is full of inflamed rhetoric and shuts down any neutral, facts that don't fit the 'official narrative'. — Unsigned, by: MoonDust / talk / contribs 16:15, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
How do you know that she purposely sets out to do all that stuff, then records it and puts it in her videos? Last I heard she just takes the footage from other video playthroughs on the grounds of fair use. I know Sarkeesian isn't always 100% on point with her examples, but heaping such accusations of bad faith on her without evidence isn't helping anybody. Nullahnung (talk) 16:47, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
The trouble is that a lot of the criticism is steeped very heavily in its own misunderstanding of feminism and sexism. Finding genuine critics of her work has proven to be unfruitful. The most compelling argument about her works (that I have seen) boils down to "The series is incomplete." In other words, hardly worth mentioning. This is the same argument we keep having over at Wikipedia. Zero (talk - contributions) 01:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand how criticism from other established academic feminists Youtuber theFactualFeminist is 'unfruitful'. The truth is Sarkeesian refuses to debate anybody, anywhere. She has never engaged her critics, ever. — Unsigned, by: MoonDust / talk / contribs 16:15, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
HER WORK is heavily steeped in misunderstanding of sexism - finding people correcting said misunderstanding in a compelling way is exceedingly easy: it basically writes itself. Search for "Sarkeesian response" or "Sarkeesian rebuttal" on YT, and you shall be fruitful. You won't even have to click past the 1st page!
A relatively notable, especially now, example would be JordanOwen42 who's made dozens and dozens of point-by-point rebuttals of her talks and videos - not perfect by any means (like 10-15% of his points are weak / influenced by some irrational opinions of his own), but still a very valuable resource as far as compelling rebuttals go. I don't even remember him saying anything about the "incomplete video series"... it's certainly a marginal point at best in the responses/rebuttals that I've encountered. 93.223.20.206 (talk) 20:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
For me the most compelling criticism is that she does not do much work to make sure her findings fit in context (seemingly taking most of her research from LP material, if she researched more in-depth, maybe she wouldn't have a problem with NPC corpses disappearing which happens for technical reasons). However, it is not interesting to us what the quality of her work is and how much of it she does, it is more interesting that people are focusing so much negative attention on her and making a big fuss where there shouldn't be any. As David hill said, the most effect she's had on games so far is adding slightly more diversity. Nullahnung (talk) 09:20, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, the negative attention has everything to do with the poor quality of her work, as well as her stated goal to spread this poor quality around in order to "make a change". Had she gone the more humble route of "well this is my take on things, but I'm just another voice on the interweb" instead of lecturing from above, the blacklash may have been interesting - but stupidity mixed with arrogance is well-known to be an inherently inflammatory combination.
Another major contributing factor is the unquestioned support she's been getting from the mainstream media and many other voices pretending to speak for rationality and enlightened values - were this wiki, for instance, to admit that most of her arguments are complete tripe, it would definitely contribute to dampening the backlash ;) 93.223.20.206 (talk) 20:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter how sub-par her video series is, nothing can justify the backlash. And if you know anything about the internet at this point, it's that the harassment topic can and will overshadow any previously focused less important topic like gender representation in video games. Nullahnung (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't talking about justification, but causation - the internet is known for its abudance of assholes and trash-talkers, which means that saying something as inflammatory in public can be expected to lead to such results.
Also, I was talking more about the intense critical backlash rather than the threats - i.e. many of the "level-headed" critics still express a high amount of irritation and frustration with her, which I'd say IS justified for the named reasons.
PS: This wiki isn't "the internet" - or, rather, it can choose not to be ;) 93.223.20.206 (talk) 21:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
As I mentioned when they topic came up before, I know nothing about this woman apart from what I have read in this article. I repeat this is my only only knowledge of her. So I am told that this wonderful person is often the subject of virulent criticism, and I am also told that any and all criticisms which have ever been levelled at her are the work sexist fascists.
It is certainly possible that this is true - but looking at it from the outside it seems kind of doubtful. Is anybody that wonderful? I would also point out that I am exactly the sort of person who I would have thought that the article was trying to persuade, as anybody with a horse in the race probably has a firm opinion already.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 18:13, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
It's my opinion that the article should be persuading gamers who have stumbled upon her videos and by extension our article, if anything, because those are the group most likely to be interested in her, but that doesn't seem to have been the route we have taken. Nullahnung (talk) 21:15, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree that this article is extremely biased towards Anita's viewpoint. It writes off all criticism of her as just being the work of misogynists and ignores all the genuine criticisms (her lack of research into topics, nitpicking, lying about filing a police report, etc.). If we're going to be a rational site that gives clear information without bias than we cannot simply sing praise for this woman while handwaving any of her flaws away. Are we basically admitting here that they don't care about factual accuracy as long as we can insult/criticize a group that a few of us don't like? Because that's kind of the opposite of what Rational Wiki is supposed to be.(174.96.232.101 (talk) 17:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC))
Thanks everyone for pitching into the discussion rationally. In the meantime I've taken notice of Anita Sarkeesian's practice of publishing hate mail without any regard for privacy. Apparently Feminist Frequency's twitter account (Sarkeesian's FF twitter account to be precise) doxxed several people who emailed Sarkeesian. I think this is relevant because the article addresses personal attacks on Sarkeesian.
Link:
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/488855173813379072/photo/1
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/488854560291561473/photo/1
178.222.185.172 (talk) 13:15, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Quite recently I was linked to some other articles on this wikia after seeing a Facebook argument on #gamergate and the, so called, "Social Justice Warriors". In the meanwhile I've managed to read up on some other sources on the matter. After reading the articles here I've noticed a certain bias in a lot of them. All seem to be in the same vein. So I can only conclude that the community of this wikia is such that it makes it inhospitable to other schools of thought. And seeing how I got no responses here, I will make no further attempts to better or add to this wikia. In any case, thank you very much for your time and consideration. 109.92.70.211 (talk) 03:04, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I would like to see some mention that criticism of Sarkeesian's position exists which isn't just antifeminist rants. (This video is a half-decent example. You might not agree with his arguments, but at least he's making them in a level-headed manner. He's actually appalled by the sexist vitriol that's been levelled against Sarkeesian. Once, I found an even better level-headed video that discussed women in video games, but sadly I haven't been able to locate it again because of all the vitriolic attack videos that show up when you search for "Sarkeesian") -- Tracer (talk) 01:28, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Well, I posted this one a while ago, which criticises some of her points about women in video games in a level-headed manner: http://dpadblog.com/2014/06/17/critique-of-sarkeesians-women-as-background-decoration-video/ Nullahnung (talk) 10:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Wow. This section of the talk page is definitely the most civil dissent-filled section of RationalWiki, which is ironic considering the topic. I'm seriously surprised no one has mentioned the "Isn't this supposed to be RATIONALWiki?" thing as an appeal to ridicule.TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 22:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Awful biased and unreadable

This article reads like a blog post made by one person that obviously sides himself with Anita's side. Usually this wiki is a pleasure to read but this article should be at least edited to an extent that some of the bias and the swear words are edited out. — Unsigned, by: 93.172.14.227 / talk / contribs

Actually it's all about bias in games journalism. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 09:34, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
If you think this is bad, check out the article on Rebecca Watson. Greatnecro (talk) 01:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
I dont't get it. The article on Rebecca Watson is barely 2 paragraphs long, with a "See also" link at the bottom to the article on Elevatorgate. How is that horrible? --Tracer (talk) 13:00, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
She's a woman. With opinions. And we don't openly hate her for it. Ikanreed (talk) 14:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] This entire wiki article needs to be deleted ASAP

I don't see why there is even an argument here to begin with. This wiki's goals state that the point of it is to be pro science, to analyze and refute pseudoscience and the anti-science movement, document crank ideas, explore fundamentalism and authoritarianism, and finally, how to analyze and critique how all these subjects are handled by the media.

So why, then, I must ask, is there even an Anita Sarkeesian page at all? I understand that many here are feminists. But at this point, you are bludgeoning this Wiki over the head with your ideologies, regardless of correctness, and you are essentially replacing one fundamentalist system with another. There is no longer any objectivity to be found here. The very fact that Anita Sarkeesian is being presented here when she has absolutely nothing to do with the aims of this wiki is confusing. Is this Wiki really about video games and sexism? Or is it about science and the promotion of it?

You're not refuting anti-science or fighting against it. You're actually promoting ideology and fundamentalism. Let me remind you the definition of fundamentalism: "strict adherence to the basic principles of any subject or discipline."

^^ Feminism is the ideology which is being strictly adhered to on this wiki. And in doing so, you are costing tremendous amounts of credibility to what was once a genuinely rational wiki.

Anita Sarkeesian is a video game critic. She is not a scientist. Gender studies are usually not based in science but in the humanities anyway. Taking a stance against sexism is something that delves into morality.

But to be a skeptic: to be a rational thinker, we must evaluate topics completely without regard to morals. In the last two days, I have observed dozens of instances where science has been neglected in favor of politics or ideology.

Therefore, I highly recommend this entry on Anita as well as her opponents to be deleted. Please put this wiki back on track. You can always create a feminist wiki that deals exclusively with feminist issues. Feminism is neither rational or irrational: it's an idea. It is not a subject of science. It's a belief system. And completely regardless to whether or not it is a correct belief system, rational thought is independent of ALL such systems. In choosing promote a belief system on a wiki designed for rational thought, you have invalidated everything this wiki claims to stand for. Please stop the ideology pushing. I don't think you realize how bad of an idea it is to merge ideology with science. Parogar (talk) 16:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

One last thing. I'd like to remind people that, while I am personally against sexism and misogyny, it's a fact that there have been misogynist scientists who have contributed greatly. Why am I mentioning that at all? Not to promote misogyny by any means, but to point out that, if the goal of this wiki is to fight anti-scientific beliefs, then fighting misogyny is not part of this wiki's goals. Though noble, you are not actually fighting anti-science by fighting misogyny, as being a misogynist is not linked to being against science. You can be both at the same time, even if it is immoral. And that's something you'd automatically realize if you think rationally. Which is something that, sadly, this wiki no longer seems to promote. Parogar (talk) 16:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
In fact, I just checked this page: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Contents and noticed that the most commented on and debated articles on this entire website (anything and everything to do with feminism) aren't even on there. So clearly, this website has lost all of its function, as it has chosen a course that puts it at odds with its stated goals. This is now a biased wiki that seeks to promote an ideology and a belief system over being skeptical and debunking anti scientific claims. In other words, there isn't even a category listed on that page for the agenda being promoted, because it's NOT on the stated agenda. It's something that has developed over time, and it has become authoritarian in nature, the very thing which this wiki claims to be against. I highly suggest that the feminists of this wiki put aside their personal beliefs for the greater point of sticking to the goals claimed in this wiki's "about" page. Otherwise, for what purpose does it even exist? Parogar (talk) 16:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Except that it fits well within items 3 and 4 of our mission statement. RW is about a lot more than just science. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 16:27, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah, brand new user comes in and says "feminism isn't on mission just delete all this" as all their edits, and hangs onto a balance fallacy as essential to impartiality. We've seen this before you, and we'll see it again, when you give up and leave. The the conclusion every one of these discussions arrives at is that anti-feminism is an artifact of traditionalist authoritarianism, and can be critically deconstructed as such. It's not hard to see past these "It's important that we don't talk about feminism at all, ever" posts, when that's seemingly all you care about. Ikanreed (talk) 16:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
"The the conclusion every one of these discussions arrives at is that anti-feminism is an artifact of traditionalist authoritarianism, and can be critically deconstructed as such."
Anti-feminism is opposition to feminist claims which can be based on many different mindsets and worldviews - ranging from rationality to specific ideologies such as "traditionalism", and with a lot of visceral emotional opposition and mulish opposition to anything calling itself "feminism" because reasons, inbetween. You are correct in stating that feminism and views surrounding feminism are susceptible to rationality and scrutiny - however, you are incorrect in thinking that feminism generally stands up to those, while anti-feminism generally doesn't. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Look, mates, you know very well that new sections go to the bottom of the talk page. I want to do it for you, but you keep edit conflicting me with your replies. This could be avoided if you could, in addition to leaving your reply, put the section in its rightful place. Thanks. (<-hypocrite) Nullahnung (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
There, I've done it now. Nullahnung (talk) 16:33, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
What does Anita Sarkeesian have to do with parts 3 and 4 of this website's goals? Do you not see how you're so attached to a particular belief system that you will actually claim that it is something it's not? It's not just feminism, but anti-feminism as well that has no place in a website with these states goals. In fact, just look at the content of your post. You accused me of being a "newcomer" as though that has some validity in your argument. Basically, you're suggesting that the age of my existence is relevant to my opinion. This is known as an ad hominem attack. And it shows just how far this place has fallen. And I've been a reader for a very long time. I've only recently decided to contribute anything. Parogar (talk) 16:41, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it's an ad hominem, good job. And what you just posted is called a "red herring" as long as we're playing fallacy bingo. The argument I presented was pretty clear. It's covered under authoritarianism, because anti-feminism is a common authoritarian thing. The end. It's up for debate, but here's where your newness is relevant, you blow in, declare that you understand what's best for the wiki, on a flimsy, if verbose, pretense, without having shown any interest in anything else, besides removing things you disagree with. I was letting you know we've seen your exact editing pattern before, and it's never been honestly in the interest of improving rationalwiki. Ikanreed (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I challenge ANY of you to prove using logic and reasoning that feminism has any basis in rationality and not merely morality. Bear in mind that I agree with much of its stated goals. But please provide EVIDENCE that feminism is inherently rational. Feminism is the belief in gender equality. And why do you want this? Because it is morally just. I agree! But that's MORALITY, not RATIONALITY. Parogar (talk) 16:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Imagine, if you will, a debating club. Members come and go but there's a comonality, a general agreement about what they want to debate about. And then, one day, a new person arrives and says "You've got it all wrong, you're debating the wrong things." How do you think that would play. So, yeah, you might have a point. Personally I don't think so. But what you don't have is the right to come here and tell us how our Wiki should be run. I have seven years invested here. I'm not ready to have someone tell me what I can and can't have articles on. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 16:49, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
And so I ask ^^ Is that rational? "I have seven years invested here. I'm not ready to have someone tell me what I can and can't have articles on." <- Those are your words. Are they based on rational thought? I am not mocking you. I am not trying to disrespect you. I'm trying to ask you if you can see what has happened to this wiki and why it is problematic. There's too much emotion and personal bias attached to this. Anita makes some great points about video games. She also makes some I disagree with. But for the life of me I can't understand why it would be included in this wiki other than because it interests the member base. I actually miss the days I could link to the science-based articles on here without having to worry that it's all just "feminist propaganda." Parogar (talk) 16:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

@Ikanreed Please define the word "Authoritarian" for me. Authoritarianism Parogar (talk) 16:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, for heaven's sake: read "The Authoritarians". It goes into a lot of detail about the notion, and it's not whatever simplification you cooked up in your head. Suffice it to say, sexism really, definitely fits into the umbrella category, due to their adhesion to traditionalism. I know a reading assignment is a lot to ask, so here's a critical excerpt:
[...]groups anathema to authoritarians, such as homosexuals and feminists[...]
Now, please chill a bit. Ikanreed (talk) 17:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
@Ikanreed " I was letting you know we've seen your exact editing pattern before, and it's never been honestly in the interest of improving rationalwiki." <- And this is the problem with anonymity on the internet. Look, I don't like being anonymous. If you Google my username "Parogar" you'll see that I have fought for rational causes to the point of exhaustion. I've debated with thousands of people about psychics, ghosts, magic, religion, and every other faith-based nonsense that humans tend to believe in. I adore science. I love skepticism. And it's abundantly clear that you're not being fairly objective here. Just think about what your response to me is. You actually want me to read a 267-page PDF opinion piece which you feel is somehow sufficient evidence to define an entire group of people as authoritarian despite not being a mind-reader and not having any scientific evidence to support your claims? Let me remind you that this is called "rational" wiki. Please, tell me if I am incorrect in the following statement:
On this website, rationalwiki.org, you feel that feminism is a valid topic because "anti feminists" are authoritarian, which means you somehow know based on scientific evidence that people who are against feminism are all against feminism (or even most) on the basis that they want power? So women who are against feminism are authoritarian? Men who reject feminism out of not understanding it are authoritarian? How many people, I must ask, who are against feminism, do you honestly speculate are against it because they both, A, understand what it's actually about, and B, even understanding it, still think that women are unequal? I'm sure you'd find that it's a minority, as a recent survey suggested that 84% of people believe in equal rights for women.
But wait. I'll take this point even further. So not only do you base your argument on an opinion piece, and not only do you claim that an entire subset of the population are all inherently authoritarian, but you claim this without evidence to support it. But let's say you're right. Let's say being anti-feminist really IS authoritarian and that you somehow know what everyone is thinking and feeling and what their views are. How then does an article on Anita Sarkeesian, a video-game critic, debunk these authoritarian claims? Or are you suggesting that you have scientific evidence that the portrayal of fake women in video games and their creators translates into anti-feminism which translates into authoritarianism which is one of this website's aims? And here I thought this place was called rational wiki. Parogar (talk) 17:14, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Feminism is about treating women as humans. As women are humans it is rational to treat them that way. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with you 100%. Women are human beings deserving of respect as they are NOT mere objects for our amusement. But can you prove that this is rational? Is there any actual evidence to support the conclusion that we SHOULD behave morally? Do you see how subjective this is? When we delve deeply into it, everything regarding this topic comes down to philosphy and the nature of good vs. evil. This is far removed from creationism or other anti-scientific claims which can be refuted without any need for philosophical debate. We know creationism is wrong because we can observe mutation, natural selection, genetic drift, and gene flow. We understand how allelic frequencies change. We understand how genes work. And we can use this knowledge to completely shut down the idea that the reason women feel pain during childbirth is because a talking snake told one to eat an apple. But can we do the same with your claim? Is it rational to promote good moral behavior? I've seen firsthand where that ends up. I've been fighting FOR Pro-LGBT causes for many years. And every single one of the homophobic morons I argue with swear up and down that their morality trumps my morality. The truth is that science should be free of such questions of morality. Because humanity is inherently irrational. Thinking rational is to put aside all emotion. Emotion can never mix well with rational thought. Parogar (talk) 17:25, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Ummm, Altemeyer's The Authoritarians is not an "opinion piece," but a report of his research findings. There may be opinion mixed in, but it's worth a read all the same. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:27, 12 November 2014 (UTC)



Lawl, am I the only one who felt reminded of "you should killusalllll on SIGHT!" when reading the title of this topic? Actually, I don't know why I just said that.


Anyway, I'm decidedly anti-Sarkeesian and anti-Feministwiki, as some might have noticed, and I think you're being kinda stupid here.
No, they shouldn't delete the page - this wiki has looser views on notability than Wikipedia, and tends to be openly snarky and humorous. The latter doesn't stand in the way of rationality as long as Poe's Law doesn't start applying, the former is even a contributing factor - why not debunk a crackpot just because they're not sufficiently notable?
Anita Sarkeesian is a crank - if this wiki became rational tomorrow, this page wouldn't be deleted, it would merely turn against her (to a large degree). However, this simply ain't gonna happen - the feminism section of this wiki is firmly and hopelessly ideological; it's MO is to back everything said by either the Sarkeesian camp or the FTB camp without question. You can mock it, you can argue against it on the Talk pages, but if you really think this is gonna change, you're being naive.
Losing credibility? It's already lost it, to the point that it doesn't even hurt anymore.
No, feminism isn't outside science and rationalism - it makes a lot of factual claims, and makes a lot of arguments vulnerable to logical scrutiny. That's why they're called "ideologues" in the first place!
So it totally has a place on a "rational wiki", except that it should be evaluated critically, and reprimanded when it forgets its place ;)
No, talking about morality doesn't stand in the way of rationality - you can bring up Nazi experiments and say they were unethical (or any less formal term you might feel like using), and you can judge people's words and actions as long as you represent them accurately. Being rational isn't to lower yourself into a detached state of zen nihilism, it just means acknowledging facts and avoiding false conclusions.
I don't see any problem in combining rationalism with secular humanist morality. Especially considering the origin of this wiki (as a response to a certain fundamentalist conservative "wiki" that shall not be named), it's probably the most sensible approach. However, its decision to transcend the reasonable center and land way too far on the left, less so.
"Anita Sarkeesian is a video game critic. She is not a scientist. Gender studies are usually not based in science but in the humanities anyway. Taking a stance against sexism is something that delves into morality."
Wrong - gender studies deal a lot with facts, which doesn't automatically mean they do it properly.
"Humanities" isn't a field that's limited to morals and opinion pieces - it includes a lot of fields that are scientific in nature, such as history and sociology, and even the things on the other end of the spectrum, such as literary criticism, are very much susceptible to logical scrutiny. At the very least, books and video games are things that exist in reality, and that you can make factually wrong statements about.
"IF I HAD ALL THOSE WASTED YEARS BACK I WOULD HELP THIS SITE BACK ON TRACK"
Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, but I'm pretty sure it's always been this way. The two issues I've found it to be most irrational about, namely Sarkeesian and Elevatorgate, didn't exist a couple of years ago, however that doesn't mean the wiki itself was more reasonable.


There's some other dubious stuff you've said, but whatever. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 18:10, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


[edit] intellectual honesty

Parogar, you're not being honest anymore. This article is almost entirely about anti-feminist hatred piled on her, not herself. You know that. Please cease bullshitting me. I don't appreciate it. Ikanreed (talk) 17:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I am being honest. I'm NOT disagreeing with you. There is no excuse for the death threats and harassment that gamers have made towards this women. It is atrocious. But, as a whole, I fail to see the relevancy in promoting it as part of a website that, until recently, was almost exclusively dedicated towards fighting the conservative-led anti-science movement. I agree that the attacks on Anita, regardless of my interpretation on her views, were wrong and reprehensible. But it's still promoting morality. How often do you open a math book and find a lengthy derision of Pythagoreans for drowning Hippasus after his discovery of irrational numbers? Parogar (talk) 17:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
...a website that, until recently, was almost exclusively dedicated towards fighting the conservative-led anti-science movement... Err..., no, wrong. This web site has had a strong Feminist stance for many, many years and our Feminism article predates 2008. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
That may be so, but as a reader, I never felt an ideology was being pressed on me until only the last year or two. I mean, when the biggest challenge a website like rational wiki is facing is angry attacks by MRA's, one must only step back and examine this with some objectivity to realize that someone has made a huge error. The fact that there is even a "war" going on between two moral-based ideologies on a website promoting rational thought is a slap in the face to the very idea of rationality. Parogar (talk) 17:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
It's not just about the anti-feminst hatred piled on her, it's also about anti-feminist criticism piled on her, as well just criticism piled on her, and dismissing it as "half-assed" or "nonsense". I've seen news articles that were exclusively about the harassment - this page isn't like that. Just saying. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Uh huh. Ikanreed (talk) 19:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] What if I claimed women did not deserve to be equal

I absolutely don't think this. But for the sake of proving my point, I'm going to make a claim that I would abhor had someone made it to me. Suppose for a moment that I say the world is better off with women being submissive to men. Can you prove using scientific evidence that I am wrong? Or would you have to merely insist that your morality, which is subjective, demands that all people are equal? Can anyone here honestly say that feminism is not simply about doing the right thing? The good thing? It's commendable, but it's anti-science to promote it in the context of rational thought. Because no matter how much you'd like to deny it, the very fact of the matter is that fusing morality and rational thought will always result in at least SOME of it being held back. Fusing together science and morality hinders science. It might make us all feel better as people, but it hinders science. That much should be patently obvious if we observe the world through the lens of history. Parogar (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

How can it hinder science if it opens up the scientific fields to half of the population? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:49, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Good point. I didn't consider that. Parogar (talk) 17:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Scientifically it has been shown that tit-for-tat is the optimum solution to the iterative prisoner's dilemma. This maps onto human behaviour in as much as the ethical position known as "the golden rule" which is, if you believe in evolutionary ethics as I do, a positive survival trait. It doesn't make sense to apply that "golden rule" to only one half of the population. Ergo, I'm a feminist. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 17:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but using science to justify moral beliefs seems absurd to me. We don't need some kind of scientific proof that a certain kind of behaviour optimises survival to justify treating women as equals, that seems awfully cold and pragmatist, whereas moral behaviour is all about feeling warm and fuzzy for me. Nullahnung (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, so how, as rational atheists, do we get our morality? Big, big question. The golden rule feels right, equitable, decent, all the other good words - and is warm and fuzzy. But why?
This all goes along with why do I love my wife and son. Oh, easy, I'm genetically programmed to do so. Otherwise my genes would die out. That sounds cold and hard but it doesn't stop her smile being the most precious thing in the world, or that inner glow I get when my son is happy.
Knowing the "why" doesn't stop me marvelling at the outcome. A flower is pretty to attract insects but that doesn't stop me filling my garden with colour. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 18:33, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Ok, so I guess we can use science to attempt to explain why we feel certain things are moral, but judging behaviour to be moral or immoral will still be through applying a set of moral beliefs. Seems plausible. Nullahnung (talk) 19:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I need more time to consider this point you made before I say anything else. It's simple, but it's meaningful. You're suggesting that promoting equality will lead to more people interested in the sciences. And naturally, the more people doing science the more people who will further it. This is definitely a good point. I really don't have anything to say in response to it. Parogar (talk) 18:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I do have one thing. I still feel that it's fair to criticize rationalwiki as being excessive in this regard. I don't think the methods and manner has been entirely fair here. MRA's are dicks. I don't think anyone reasonable is going to deny that. I wrote a scathing rant about them the other day actually. But my point is that appearing extremist (which some articles really do) can sometimes be more harmful than trying to be a bit more balanced. Like the MRA article. It's ... troubling.
"MRA's are dicks. I don't think anyone reasonable is going to deny that."
Some are, others aren't. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
And, in what way are we "extremist"? Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 18:06, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to plead the fifth to that one :) Parogar (talk) 18:09, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, you could say it's not derived from any facts. However, technically that would only work against arguments claiming to be based on "realities about gender", not so much the "wouldn't ie be fun?" kind - and also, values can't be derived from facts alone, only facts in combination with more general values.
However, I'm not getting into this moral philosophy horseshite right now, and this is all beside the point - this site isn't called "MorallyDetachedScienceWiki" and it's stupid to hold it to those stand- ah fuck it I've already covered that. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so you're right, Dox, when you say that we need more women in science. But I've thought about it, and modern feminism (especially Anita Sarkeesian) will not be able to fulfill that role, because a negative cannotation has been applied to it, and it continues to worsen. At this point, promoting feminism will impede equality. Promoting feminism is not going to lead to anything fruitful. That's the unfortunate reality of the situation.

For example, take Anita Sarkeesian: she's what is known as an antagonistic feminist. Or, in modern speech, a bitch. She is immediately off putting to moderates. Far too extreme and rage-inducing. To help women, people need to actually like and want to join the cause trying to do so. Not a whole lot of people like feminism. To be honest, I like some ideas of feminism, but I dislike it. Maybe not to the degree I hate MRA's, but I tend to be more in the middle on the side of Egalitarianism. And yes, you can link me to the dictionary definition of feminism and then tell me to read "Bad feminist," but to do so is to deny that a culture has formed around the word, which it has. Parogar (talk) 18:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

At any rate, I've made my points, and I have little else to add. I'd like to personally thank each and every one of you who took the time to debate this with me. I'll leave you in peace, because truthfully, my intention was not to harm RationalWiki, and I am not here to troll or harass. Wattpad.com/Parogar is where I can be found if anyone would like clarification about anything. But for now, I don't want to cause anymore disturbance. Take care. Parogar (talk) 18:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The madness of the militants… the small body of misguided women who profess to represent the noble and serious cause of political enfranchisement of women, but in fact do their utmost to degrade and hinder it.

Manchester Guardian ( 2 March 1912 )

or
The way in which certain types of women, easily recognised, have acted in the last year or two, especially in the last few weeks, lends a great deal of colour to the argument that the mental equilibrium of the female sex is not as stable as the mental equilibrium of the male sex… It seems to me that this House should remember that if the vote is given to women those who will take the greatest part in politics will not be the quiet, retiring, constitutional women… but those very militant women who have brought so much disgrace and discredit upon their sex. It would introduce a disastrous element into our public life… One feels that it is not cricket for women to use force… It is little short of nauseating and disgusting to the whole sex…

Viscount Helmsley, speaking in the House of Commons, 28 March 1912

Yep, same old arguments. Damm feminists, they get so uppity the put people off. Simply not cricket! Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 18:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
You asked above about appearing "extremist". Whilst that's almost certainly overstating the case, have a look at the polemic that passes for RW's considered opinion on rape culture. It presents its subject as an established matter of fact, without any attempt to acknowledge its roots as an academic concept / rhetorical device that sprang from second-wave feminism in the 70s.
It's entirely possible to argue that there is no such fucking thing as "rape culture", whilst still acknowledging the importance of drastically reducing the incidence of rape and vastly improving victims' experience of the criminal justice system. You'd have fuck all chance of telling that from the article, though. Robledo (talk) 19:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Allegedly using NLP (a.k.a. normal English grammar)

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/10/10/youtube-neckbeard-exposes-anita-sarkeesians-secret-plan-to-hypnotize-the-world-by-using-the-verb-to-be/ You may want to watch the video first, it's at the bottom of the post.--ZooGuard (talk) 07:53, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

When you manage to provide Manboobz with legitimate ammunition against you... there are problems! Mammoth sure knew how to pick a video out of several :D
It's kind of regrettable, really - while by far not the only one to have made high-quality rebuttals of her nonsense, Owen's still one of the most prominent ones, and one of the best... most of the time. Too bad that he's kind of a kook himself - a "taxes is theft" libertarian, and occasionally this NLP stuff (which is not to be confused with some valid observations about her choice of words in the kickstarter video etc.). Sometimes he gets overly melodramatic with Nietzsche's "master and slave morality", or doesn't get a feminist joke even though he criticizes Sarkeesian for not getting jokes.
Sure hope he keeps that shit ouf of the movie, or it's just gonna be known as "the rightwing/libertard/numerologist/drama queen" perspective on things. Then again, who cares - he's the one who went through with starting such a project, not someone else, so whatever happens happens I say :) 84.187.96.221 (talk) 02:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] No-nonsense claims

1)

"Anita on the other hand only goes as far as to say that sexist tropes that exist can be perpetuated in media like video games."

Perpetuation is a form of causation.

"Ultimately she is just suggesting that it might be better if video games treat women better."

Would, not might, and saying, not suggesting.
Not just "better", but not/less misogynistic.

"She is by no means trying to restrict developers in their creative freedom, merely hoping to maybe influence their attitudes."

Her lack of legal/censorship ambitions is what sets her apart from Thompson. Her narrative, however, that there's something morally wrong with the medium and that it harms/affects the minds of consumers, is made out of the same cloth. He's the poster-child for the "conservative moralizing" camp, she the poster-child for the "liberal social justice" camp - both camps are highly notable for their literalist, tone-deaf mindset and their self-righteous condemnation of completely benign things.

2) No, she's saying she's not a fan and doesn't play video games. Stop lying. 93.223.20.206 (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I have a shot glass with vodka here. Trying to decide on drinking it. Apart from that, show me the proof I crave that she doesn't play video games. Zero (talk - contributions) 07:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I didn't say she doesn't play video games, I said in that video you linked to "for context", she said she didn't. Or, more accurately, she said she'd like to play video games but they're too gross - technically you could also read it as saying she hardly plays games, or does so casually. The part with her not being a fan, though, was black on white. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
So he found out through research that people who are against feminism (and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that 99% of them don't even understand what feminism is) are pro-authoritarianism? Look, I understand why people support feminism. But as someone who is a frequent critic of it, well ... okay, see now what I'm about to state is an anecdote, and as such, it means absolutely nothing, but I may as well say it. Based on my own personal observations, I'd argue that the people against feminism are actually against feminISTS and they can't tell the difference. I've made this mistake myself. They miss-attribute the feminists for the feminISM. But again, I can't prove that this is true, so you may as well take that with a grain of salt. Either way, by supporting Anita Sarkeesian on a website about rational thought, you've essentially done the equivalent of picking sides in Game of Thrones -- and that, I must insist, is the diametric opposite of being rational. Parogar (talk) 17:31, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Why do you think repeating yourself like this is going to achieve something? Your argument is shitty. You've apparently mistaken "rational" for "logical absolutist" and that's... well... silly. Ikanreed (talk) 17:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
It's more like picking the side of Walder Frey. And also, you're being the White Walker to my King of the North right now - stay on topic pls kthx. 93.223.13.154 (talk) 18:42, 12 November 2014 (UTC)



"Most videos criticizing her rely on attacking her credentials, claiming she's "not a real gamer" and is therefore "biased.""

More lies. The large chunk of most of those videos focus on her fallacious content, and don't "rely" on any of the ad-hominem stuff even when they do touch on it.


"Additionally, because of the attacks on her she has disabled the like/dislike feature"

lmao 84.187.96.221 (talk) 02:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorism

Yeah. It has gone from being dumb to being terrorism. More on this when the air is cleared. Zero (talk - contributions) 03:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Can't we just copy some of the stuff from our Gamergate article that this article doesn't yet have? Nullahnung (talk) 07:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm kind of surprised that Anita doesn't carry a gun herself. Fairly sure I wouldn't leave the house without some kind of weapon in her position, because holy shit. King Skeleton (talk) 07:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, Anita lives in California somewhere. Gun culture is very different there. Zero (talk - contributions) 12:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Having a gun on you isn't always a huge help when someone fires at you. The assailant always gets the first move anyway, so you're basically relying on that person's initial action failing to kill you and the guy giving you enough time to pull out your gun. You'd probably be better off wearing a bulletproof vest. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 17:02, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Eh, a vest won't be that helpful, they're primarily designed for military situations where the attacker aims for the centre of mass. People with no military or police training tend to aim for the head. King Skeleton (talk) 17:11, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Possibly the worst response to death threats is to carry a gun. Firstly, the lone gunman will have done his worst before you even have time to draw and secondly, if you do draw, it all but ensures a fire fight with ensuing fatalities - probably innocent bystanders. Is that really what you want? Life is not like the movies, ever. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 11:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Wow - what a piece of anti-gun tripe right there! Sure, having a gun on you will increase your chances of survival / stopping your assailant, but what if you hit someone else instead? Leaving yourself completely at the mercy of the assassin and let him kill you is definitely the better choice, especially considering that you'll also leave others at his mercy, and not only that but he actually threatened to shoot other innocent bystanders as well... oh wait. But in either case, crossfire with accidental injuries < letting an armed psycho Mr. Blonde all of you one by one. Eh? 93.223.20.206 (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The problem with this scenario is it works if you've pissed off a squad of crackshot ninja snipers in perfect cover firing Hollywood instant death bullets, not so much in real life where it's about as sensible as "there's no point learning martial arts because the attacker always gets to throw the first punch." Sure, in a worst-case scenario you won't get to draw at all, but there's plenty of other possibilities (attacker yells "die whore!" while fumbling with a gun stuck in his belt, scuffle at the door which ends with shots being fired, etc) where that doesn't apply. And given the attacker is as likely to hit an innocent as you are (particular since that's what he's actually trying to do) that doesn't really hold up unless you argue the attacker is also necessarily a better shot than the defender. King Skeleton (talk) 00:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
And if the attacker is behind any kind of cover, you'd have to be a hell of a good shot - assuming you can even locate him in time. All this stuff about "a good guy with a gun" presumes that gunfights are usually fought like wild west showdowns. SophieWilderModerator 13:10, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Such is the culture of concealed carry. And it would be rather hypocritical if Sarkeesian participated in it while cancelling a gig because of it. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, her focus is on video games, right? If she gains enough levels, she'll have sufficient hit points to withstand a couple of direct hits before returning fire, assuming her assailant doesn't get off a lucky headshot for double damage and hasn't found the rocket launcher yet. Of course, her attacker might have a high hit point total too, so she might have to shoot him six or seven times. --Tracer (talk) 13:07, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Her focus is sexism in media. She just started a video games segment, which drew the ire of dimwits scared of change. Ikanreed (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Not scared of change, opposed to bad change. 93.223.20.206 (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Sarkeesian's School Shooting Gaffe

I'm going to admit up front that I have my own biases, & that I'm also new here(in fact, this is my first edit here). I don't care for Sarkeesian as a person, let alone a scholar, & the following links illustrate why I don't like her: 1. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525818089364283392 (On the day a school shooting occurred in Marysville, she tweeted about the shooting, https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525781036580356096 , followed by the tweet linked here, in which she presents a statistic claiming that 98% of school shootings are perpetrated by males, though the objectivity of the source she uses for the statistic is questionable, since the source itself uses the statistic & a handful of reports to assert that cultural perceptions of masculinity are the culprit behind school shootings, to which I would say correlation does not imply causation.) 2. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525793436025118721 (She then asserts that men & boys are always the culprits of school shootings because of ideas of "toxic masculinity".) 3. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525834975942164482 (She blames Patriarchy for school shootings.) 4. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525781140943011841 (She makes a scaremongering appeal to emotion, to claim that our culture causes men to be violent, even though she hasn't presented any studies to cooborate this conclusion, & being a neither a sociologist nor a psychologist, she did not have the knowledge nor authority to make the claims that she did.) 5. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525850299487883264 (Declares herself a victim of hours of hate for making the tweets mentioned above, I read the tweets made to her, many praise her, some are what I'd consider hate, but she seems to forget about a few, such as myself, who were genuinely offended by her comments, which I took to be in very poor taste, & rather insensitive to the victims of that tragedy. In other words, she spoke too soon. Before this, I'd often heard comparisons to Jack Thompson, but of course, I didn't take those comparisons seriously, I just thought of her as some nobody who decided to talk about video games from a certain ideological perspective, but in this instance, I was reminded of the cynical abuse of the Columbine disaster by various groups intending to promote a particular ideology, including a few who wanted to blame video games, such as Doom, for the shooting. In light of this, I can say that the Thompson comparisons seem much more apt.) I bring this up because so few sources address these comments made by her. I didn't want these things to sink into the ether because, in my opinion, these comments definitely bring the credibility of her work into question, whether these comments were made out of genuine concern, or cynical self-promotion, & the latter is a possibility, since being a feminist activist is now her career. Varian French Fry (talk) 15:51, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, do you think it's unreasonable to ask why massacre perpetrators are almost invariable male & to look for possible answers? ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
It would be perfectly fine if she were presenting her opinion as a hypothesis, a starting point for study & peer review, but it seemed more like she had taken her statistic (which I remind you, came from a possibly non-objective source) as proof of her position in of itself(I consider it something of a logical leap to claim "A majority of school shooters are males, therefore our culture encourages violence in men."), & also, she made these comments the day a tragedy had occurred, & she was well aware of this. I find that incredibly disrespectful. Varian French Fry (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
She's a longstanding feminist cultural critic. She didn't just jump to "our culture encourages violence in men" from a shooting - that's what she's been saying for years. So have various other people. And why are her comments about what causes shooting any more disrespectful than anyone else's? Whenever one of these massacres occurs people talk about it, what it caused it, how to prevent it happening again; right away, the same day. The anti-gun lobby weigh in demanding more gun control; the pro-gun lobby weigh in demanding more concealed carry for protection. People talk about mental health, bullying, ostracism. But when people talk about feminism, this is apparently a problem. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:04, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Would it be okay if some televangelist was claiming that we need to "poot gahd bak in skools!" because of this? Was it okay when Doom & Marilyn Manson were blamed for Columbine? Also, Sarkeesian's a pop culture critic, & she's claiming that our culture causes men to be violent, & she's currently making a series called "Tropes vs. Women", in which she points out what she considers to be troublesome trends in media, & she's currently making a living off of her activism, think about that. Varian French Fry (talk) 22:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm thinking about it. I don't see what your point is. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
My point is that she may intend to rehash the "Media causes violence!" moral panic of yesteryear within the framework of feminist thought. Varian French Fry (talk) 01:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
How can media not influence an individuals views? Have you never consumed media with a political message before? Of course media can cause sexism. That isn't the same as saying it can make you violent --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 01:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
If you'd read my main post, it would become clear that I was calling her out for asserting that our culture makes men violent. Varian French Fry (talk) 01:46, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Okay, what is it that you believe causes men to be violent? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 01:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Mental illness, abuse, testosterone, abuse of meth or crack, & maybe cultural perceptions of masculinity, but you really have to ask, "If cultural perceptions of masculinity cause school shootings, as Sarkeesian claimed, then why are school shootings so rare?". Varian French Fry (talk) 02:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
They're not; they happen disturbingly often in the USA. & Did you read the article Sarkeesian linked to? It suggests answers to some of these questions. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:15, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
They're common in the US compared to other countries, but considering the size of the country & availability of weapons, that's not saying much. What's more, the media has a tendency to milk school shootings for all they're worth to draw viewers, which can give the appearance of school shootings being a common occurrence(it's like how Armageddon predictors will point to an increased incidence of earthquakes as a sign of the end-times when the reality is that earthquakes are receiving more attention from news media than they use to.). Lastly, I did read that article, & all I saw was fallacious scaremongering. Varian French Fry (talk) 02:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Per factcheck.org: http://www.factcheck.org/2014/06/spinning-statistics-on-school-shootings/ , there were 30 serious school shootings in the US between Dec 2012 and June 2014. The UK hasn't seen a fatal school shooting since Dunblane in 1996, and has ~ 1/4 the population of the US. Population size and the availability of firearms are certainly factors, but if anything US media downplay school shootings because they are depressingly frequent. Queex (talk) 15:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Okay, so maybe I don't spend a lot of time reading about school shootings, so tell, would you say that school shootings are on the rise? Varian French Fry (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
That's harder to find out. I'm loathe to try. The last time I tried to draw together some data for firearms in the US I gave because just about every source I could find for numbers was repeating the same debunked claim that had been lauded amongst the trigger-happy set. You tend to get similar excitable and less-than-credible numbers from those fever swamps, and the more credible sources don't say much other than 'it's difficult to find out because political lobbies have made it their business to obstruct the collection of data'. Queex (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Seriously, go to the Wikipeadia page on school shootings and you find that the US has a page all of its own - and that's because they have more than the rest of the world put together - ok, maybe that's because WP is US centric. But go to that page, read it and weep. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 16:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Alright, I looked at it, certainly more school shootings than I expected, but what I'd really like to know is if school shootings have increased or decreased in the past century, & I'd like to compare that to depictions of men in culture throughout the past century, to see if this "toxic masculinity" claim she made holds water. Yeah, I made this post because I was angry at her making a school shooting all about her politics, but now I want to see if I can prove her wrong! Varian French Fry (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
You might have a point if she were asking questions and not telling people what the answer was. I can't think of a single other case where we've responded favourably to someone grinding their political axe against a tragedy, especially immediately after the event. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 19:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
How about the widespread backlash against MRA & incel culture in the wake of the Isla Vista killings. RationalWiki was fairly solidly behind that. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:07, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Well that was slightly different. Men's rights forums are hotspots of extremist ideologies and misogyny. Video games don't tend to be as political. There are some hugely toxic communities within the subculture but most video games don't reflect what the average GamerGater stands for --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 01:40, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
What does any of this have to do with Gamergate? ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 01:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
It's my fault, I got mixed up between an article I read last week about video games cause violence vs sexism and the general point of the tweets. Sorry --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm surprised this is at all controversial. In many human cultures, men are encouraged to act in ways that show off their 'masculinity', i.e. visual displays of 'macho' behaviour. Since this typically involves establishing oneself as physically superior to those lacking in strength and masculinity, violence is seen as affirming one's masculinity. In America, school schootings regrettably seem to have become some kind of 'trump card', an ultimate act to raise the levels of one's perceived dominance, strength and proud disregard for society's 'weak' civilizedness to supreme heights in one fell swoop, regardless of one's social status prior to committing the act. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 00:38, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
What you're expressing here is an opinion, perhaps the starting point for study & discussion, but not a proven fact. What was controversial to me was not the possibility of a connection between gender roles & violence(which I will concede is a possibility), it was the fact that Sarkeesian asserted this connection as if it were fact on the day that a school shooting occurred, & she did so while aware of that a school shooting had just happened. Also, you seem to disregard biological factors & the possibility of mental illness as well as child abuse. I know that when things as unpredictable as school shootings occur, it would be nice to have one sole cause upon which to lay the blame, but in our complex society, we do not have that luxury. Varian French Fry (talk) 01:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not saying that's it's been scientifically researched and proven as fact and I never claimed it'd be the only factor, but it's such a blatantly obvious connection that questioning it being a major factor smells strongly of denialism. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 04:11, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Until your opinion transfers from hypothesis to theory, skepticism is not denialism. Varian French Fry (talk) 14:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Patriarchy is a well established theory. It's not like Sarkeesian is saying things about society & culture that people haven't been saying for decades. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
*sniff* *sniff* Still smells like denialism to me. Seriously, just suggesting that the way men are brought up in our society might play no role whatsoever is as ridiculous as suggesting that people are members of certain religions, not because they were spoon-fed certain religious beliefs by the people around them starting from a very young age, but because membership of specific religions is an inherited trait. Genes don't control everything. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
What's ridiculous to me is that she's basically retreading the "Media makes us violent!" moral panic, but she's doing so through a feminist perspective, so even though RationalWiki rejected that same BS when it came from Thompson, it's suddenly okay because Sarkeesian is a feminist & she said that our culture only makes men crazy, but I know where that road leads us. She's going to push for less violence in media because most violence in media is perpetrated by men, & somehow, that is affecting our young men in the real world. What's more though, I did not intend to have this kind of debate, I made the first post here because I was concerned about Sarkeesian jumping to interpret a tragedy so soon after it had happened, how she did so with logical fallacies, & how some people(like myself, who has personal connections within Washington state & the city of Marysville) might be offended by her doing so. I was not intending on debating how our culture makes our boys violent, I was only intending that someone other than goddamned MRAs be concerned about her lack of tact! I don't ever want to see this kind tactic coming from the left again, it was bad when the right did it! Varian French Fry (talk) 13:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm still not seeing what's offensive about this. She wasn't endorsing, justifying, profiteering from or joking about the shooting. She was clearly upset about the shooting, as were a lot of people, and was talking about what causes these kind of incidents - again, as were a lot of other people. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
So you don't see what's wrong with a pop culture critic, armed with a degree in communications, who's made a career out of examining & critiquing pop culture tropes when they do not present women in a way she sees as proper, declaring that our culture makes young men want to shoot up schools, the day a school shooting happened? I'm of the opinion that if she were truly torn up about the shooting, she could have waited a week or two before promoting her own rancid take on the issue! Maybe waited until after the affected families were done burying their kids! Perhaps our culture does play a role in causing issues like mass shootings, alongside a myriad of other factors that could be addressed, & maybe issolating our young men by branding them possible killers wont make it less likely that they will become killers, did you think about that! Did you think about how every young man who's every shot up a school has been diagnosed with mental health issues, & did you think about the differences in behavior between mentally ill young men & young women, which could result of biological factors in our sexually-dimorphic species! No? Then I guess blaming Schwartzenagger for making boys want to be able to hold a fully automatic machine gun in one arm is perfectly reasonable, and don't give me that "Ableist!" crap when I bring up mental health issues as a factor, because if I'm perpetrating a stigma against mental illness, then Sarkeesian's perpetrating a stigma against the male identity! I hate double-standards. Varian French Fry (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Sarkeesian, along with practically everyone else, commented on the news at the time. She's a pop culture critic and, as such, she drew the parallel between the violence seen in the US school shootings - and, believe me, it's extreme - with that which she sees in pop culture and pointed towards an over arching "toxic" culture of male violence. She didn't do a Thompson and go video games lead to violence. She didn't blame video games for school shootings, she didn't blame video games for anything - she blamed what she perceived as the toxic macho culture. As far as I am concerned the "gaffe" is totally one of your perceiving. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 14:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
@Varian French Fry: No, I don't see what's wrong with her comments. Aside from your strange assumptions about what I do or don't think, your whole rationale for "how dare she say that" just keeps looping back to "I don't agree with her". You haven't justified why talking about these shootings in terms of culture & gender should be more objectionable (in a broad sense, not just to you personally) than talking about them in terms of mental health; nor why a feminist should be expected not to take a feminist view of them. ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Holy crap Varian French Fry, that is one nasty false equivalence bro.BlackProg (talk)17:47, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Explain.Varian French Fry (talk) 18:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
She isn't assaulting male identity, if anything she is pointing out how society and how it not only glorifies guns and violence but ties them to what being a "man" is, is an incredibly toxic line of social conditioning. She is broken up, but people's need to say "He was insane, only insane people do this" promotes a lot of stereotypes against the mentally ill that isn't true. (It's also interesting that only white males get the "mentally ill" card, minorities are always just seen as default bad people with agency when they shoot up somewhere.) Mentally ill people are generally harmless or are more likely to be a threat to themselves than anyone else, it's ableist to shift all of the blame on mental illness when that isn't the only cause and ignores the social systems in place. We can't have a culture that promotes violence, murder, gangs and guns only to then act surprised when people take these to heart. Also, biological determinism in this issue is a really shitty appeal to nature bro.
Men aren't oppressed either, so there is that. People with mental illness are.
You're giving Sarkeesian way too much power, she is only pointing out that the way our culture promotes violence and the objectification of women. It's you MRA's and Gamergaters who literally go batshit insane and start making these wild conspiracy theories. BlackProg (talk)-22:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
When did I say anything about race? Varian French Fry (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, people with mental illness are oppressed, so lets let all the paranoid schizophrenics out of the assylums! Yeah, I know that's a grossly offensive characterization, but that doesn't change the fact that people with mental illness can be dangerous to others, especially when they can get guns, & that men do have problems in our society that are unique to men, whether it be making up 93% of workplace deaths, receiving far heftier prison sentences than women for the same crimes, or making up the vast majority of homeless individuals; I know that doesn't prove men are oppressed, but can you say that women are oppressed in this day & age? Varian French Fry (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
You, sir, need to pull your head straight out of your ass, because I am neither an MRA nor a Gamergater. Varian French Fry (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
You seem to know the MRA's talking points quite well and I can say women are oppressed in this day and age. Paranoid schizophrenics are usually not violent people, they are actually usually withdrawn and would rather be left alone man. They can be dangerous, but the large majority of schizophrenics and mentally ill people aren't a threat. I mentioned race as a side note, nothing more. I apologize for that.-BlackProg (talk) 21:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I do not think women are oppressed in the modern first-world, but that's just my opinion. I am not an MRA, though I've also left feminism behind me, so I guess I just want equality. Varian French Fry (talk) 21:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
That's what most feminists want too! Just some equality! 141.134.75.236 (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't know about that, the root of feminism is feminine, which is clearly a gendered term. Not only that, but I have many issues with feminism, in particular, the feminism promoted by Sarkeesian & her supporters. Varian French Fry (talk) 15:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
(EC) We can talk semantics about what "oppressed" means all day, but when you get right down to it, we do have our issues within the first world, the most prominent of which would be the career disparity, part of which is the glass ceiling, and the wage gap (adjusted one). Which is why people say feminism is not much more than equality-striving when applied to current conditions in society. Nullahnung (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
See? You cite all these misandric issues, but when someone points out that the problematic way our culture conditions men can mentally destabilize and emotionally detach them, you go all on the defensive. It's a misandric issue too! 141.134.75.236 (talk) 21:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, branding all teenage boys as potential Harris & Klebold imitators without any real proof is good for our young boys, declare them possible killers without evidence & watch their self-esteem soar! Varian French Fry (talk) 15:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Wait, how is pointing out that macho culture's conditioning of men causes some men to become mentally unstable and emotionally detached bad to men? This is culturally enforced misandry! Seriously, the MRAs should be all over this. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 15:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
What's with the strawmanning and unfounded generalizations throughout this discussion? For one thing, Anita didn't even mention "media", she just mentions our culture's perpetuation of toxic ideas of masculinity. If you insist on broadening the oh-noes-violent-video-games-are-making-people-violent moral panic to a oh-noes-our-cultural-upbringing-is-influencing-people-in-potentially-bad-ways moral panic (and assume because it's a moral panic it can't possibly be true), you're effectively claiming people are immune from being influenced by their surroundings. Can't you see how ridiculous that is? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 14:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I drew the connection between blaming media for violence & blaming "macho culture" for violence based on the fact that she's a culture critic who makes a living by critiquing media, & her gaffe was making unproven claims about what causes school shootings when one had just occurred, but why should I bother? You're all so convinced that Sarkeesian can do no wrong that you're stepping up to justify a tactic that RationalWiki has tradionally opposed when it came from the likes of Thompson. I can't argue why what she did was wrong now, I'm too emotionally involved. I'm just going to get frustrated & lash out if I keep trying. I'm done with RationalWiki & feminism now. Varian French Fry (talk) 15:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I just love it when single-issue editors sling around accusations of closed-mindedness. It's almost as delicious as when they fail to stick the flounce. Queex (talk) 15:47, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Well it looks like I'm not done. So let me get this straight, you're going to try & mock me by calling me a "single-issue editor" when every single editor on every single wiki ever, started by editing a single issue; & by doing so, you proceed to make new editors feel unwelcome on your little wiki, & thus, would seem to be against new perspectives finding their way into your special little echochamber, based on how much you seemed to relish my retirement from editing this wiki, & you also seem to be mocking me for not sticking around & trying to explain to ideologues why an ideology does not justify a lack of sensitivity to sufferers of a school shooting, is that correct? Varian French Fry (talk) 16:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Look, the thing here is you're not the first, and you're not the last, to come in, find a single article, obsess over a "slant" that fits with the overall mission of rationalwiki, go "you're all so stuck in your ways about THIS, and it undermines my appreciation of everything else on raitonalwiki". That's almost SOP for rednames. The advice I have for everyone in your position is find an unrelated article to the one you're stuck on, and see if you can't find a flaw to improve on it instead. Heck, try the random article button. Ikanreed (talk) 16:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps I am getting obsessive about the fact that noone but MRAs seemed to care that she used a school shooting as an ideological soapbox. Varian French Fry (talk) 18:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Okay I've read these properly and I think your problem is that she is straight out saying what the reasons for the shooting are rather than using studies or presenting her opinions as questions? However she links to an article in the first tweet that does support her viewpoint. After that she is noting content that is in the article. I would agree that masculinity is not going to be the only reason for shootings such as this one, although it is the cause of a lot of violence. Everything considered twitter isn't a good medium for starting debates --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I 100% agree that Twitter is no place to have a debate, that place is just a breeding ground for toxicity. That said, I read the article she linked to, & I must say that I did not find it convincing. There were no studies, just an opinion posed as a question(& it might as well have been rhetorical), based on a statistic, but despite that, Sarkeesian seemingly took that essay as a statement of fact. However, if you've been paying attention, I more had an issue with her simply jumping to interpret a school shooting as a means of promoting her ideology so soon after it had happened, but I brought up issues I had with her rational when they stuck out to me. Varian French Fry (talk) 19:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
"If you've been paying attention, I more had an issue with her simply jumping to interpret a school shooting as a means of promoting her ideology so soon after it had happened". So if I only try to refute a part of your argument then I am not paying attention? How exactly do you expect people to dialogue with you? I do understand to a degree. I hate it when people try to capitalise on things like this, but the whole of America does this. She is just tackling it from another perspective. This is more of a moral issue than anything else. It is important to critique why these shootings happen and what the causes are for them. There is clearly a degree in which society is to blame. I again agree that the article does not go far enough, but it's an interesting idea and I don't think I'm persuaded otherwise by the timing of the posting. Hopefully more study will go into this. Either way you really need to work on the way that you communicate with people if you hope to win anybody over --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:59, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
"I hate it when people try to capitalise on things like this, but the whole of America does this. She is just tackling it from another perspective." So is it okay because everyone else does it, or because she chose to do it from a different perspective? That said, I do need to work on how I communicate with people, & I'd also like to see this "toxic masculinity" hypothesis properly tested & critiqued before anyone else tries to claim such an opinion as fact. Varian French Fry (talk) 20:51, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Well no, it isn't okay because everybody else does it. The best way to critique this is in an article post on the phenomenon as a whole, not on the talk page for a feminist critic on an obscure wiki. You're not going to change the way the American media deals with school shootings by attacking feminist critics, it just comes across like another person trying to attack Anita despite her not being particularly radical in her views. I suppose I see "toxic masculinity" as fact because I see it pretty much every day here and where I grew up too. You don't think masculinity is the cause for aggressive behaviour by men? Why do some men act aggressively and others don't? It's not biological, I'm perfectly adept at controlling myself. I think you will find it is tied to masculine identity --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 21:47, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
So should I take this to the School Shooting article? I brought up what I considered misconduct on Sarkeesian's part here because I wanted to see if it would be recognized as misconduct, but I was surprised to find that several stepped up to defend this sort of action, & promote a hypothesis that hasn't been properly studied & reviewed, & I was implied to be a denialist because I did not accept her opinion as fact. Varian French Fry (talk) 15:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It's more about you trying to stake a claim to 'more rational than thou' when your preconceived notions are so obviously on display. Maybe it's all in good faith and you just happened upon a hot-button topic for you first, and for whatever reason you're not quite taking on board the responses as much as you should, but the odds are against it. Queex (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't really staking a claim to 'more rational than thou', so much as sharing my righteous indignation at Sarkeesian acting as a political vulture, & now at the double-standards that RationalWiki's staff seem to have in regards to the abuse of tragedies. Though I did make some attempts at logic, if only to make you aware of how I've come to associate her with Thompson(yeah, I know I keep bringing him up, but it seems like such a perfect match, Thompson attacked violence in media from a conservative angle, & Sarkeesian attacked it from a feminist angle). That said, maybe I'm not being too rational, maybe I just got pissed. Maybe I should step back for awhile... Varian French Fry (talk) 18:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh, stop it with the Jack Thompson comparison already. It's not the same. Jack Thompson actually believes that playing video games on its own causes people to be more violent. Anita Sarkeesian has said no such thing, afaik. You keep going back to: her being a pop culture/entertainment media critic + she thinks our culture promotes violence in men = must mean that she thinks the entertainment media on its own promotes violence in men. That is not a perfectly logical conclusion. It is spurious reasoning, one side of this equation does not guarantee the other. Calm down and think about it. Nullahnung (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Well in that case, if she's a pop culture/entertainment media critic, then she's not qualified to say jack about what causes school shootings, is she? Seems a tad out of her jurisdiction, no? Maybe she shouldn't be asserting her opinion as fact when all she has to back up her claims is an article, which is itself an opinion piece by an ideologically-minded one, yes? But whatever, I shall now refrain from making anymore references to Jack Thompson. That said, entertainment media is a part of culture & plays an important role in shaping it(she's admitted as such in her first episode of Tropes vs. Women in Games), so if politicians were to take her claims about a "culture of toxic masculinity" seriously, where do you think they'd start? Varian French Fry (talk) 19:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
They might come for our balls! Ohmy.gif WèàšèìòìďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Hardy har har... — Unsigned, by: Varian French Fry / talk / contribs
Well, it's good that you now see how the Jack Thompson comparison doesn't apply. Yes, entertainment media plays an important part in promoting all sorts of cultural aspects. That doesn't mean they are to blame, however. We don't blame the air for conducting the soundwaves whenever we shout at each other either. Nullahnung (talk) 19:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I did not say the comparison didn't apply, I've just overused it. That said, censorship of media is so much easier than, say, lending an ear & a sympathetic shoulder to troubled kids, or providing healthy outlets for male adolescent aggression, & Sarkeesian has claimed that media reinforces cultural stereotypes harmful to women, so I'm just making what I believe is an educated guess when I suggest that Sarkeesian would try to tie her opinion of what causes school shootings together with her work in media critique. What's more though, I'm still fairly certain that making claims about what caused a particular school shooting shortly after it had just happened, is in rather poor taste. Varian French Fry (talk) 20:10, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
What makes you think Sarkeesian would advocate censorship or oppose lending an ear & a sympathetic shoulder to troubled kids? WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, I suppose I don't know for sure, but I know that she's mostly involved in media, so that's where my mind led me. Varian French Fry (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Do you know that she's mostly involved in censorship of media? Or are you still confusing her with Jack Thompson? ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
@Varian: Will you come off the whole "wants to censor entertainment media just like Jack Thompson" thing already? I have yet to hear anything about Sarkeesian seriously advocating such censorship apart from wild guessing and "my mind led me to believe" from people who don't think things through. Step back for a minute, calm down and stop assuming such things about Sarkeesian. She is criticising tropes about women in video games, by no means is she suggesting that we censor such tropes, only that we take a critical look at them and maybe consider the metric buttload of other tropes that are waiting to be explored instead, possibly ones that represent women in a more balanced manner which will result in diversification of taste. Nullahnung (talk) 20:48, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
*Sigh* You're right, I'm not thinking straight, so I'm going to go ahead & step away from this subject for a bit. Varian French Fry (talk) 20:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Happens to all of us. I'll give you credit for seeing and admitting it. Nullahnung (talk) 21:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Then you haven't read the school shooting article, which states there doesn't exist a predictor (cultural or otherwise) besides being male. --Someon (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Where did I posit the existence of additional predictors? 'Being male' and 'being male while living in a culture' are largely indistinguishable, you know. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 00:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the "I'm so vague I don't even know what I'm saying" stage. How exactly are you going to shoehorn your views to fit when video games, movies, etc. do not have an effect? --Someon (talk) 12:16, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the "Let's draw wild, generalizing conclusions way beyond the scope of the research" stage. Playing violent video games doesn't cause people to act more violently outside of the games, therefore all environmental input has no effect whatsoever on any individual. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 12:29, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, you are just dodging the question. What might that input be? --Someon (talk) 21:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Dodging? I'm pointing out that the basis for your question is completely ridiculous. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 22:25, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, dodging. And what's ridiculous is that a few lines up you are pretending to be so certain but down here you can't answer a simple question. --Someon (talk) 18:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Look, your whole objection is based on the idea that the totality of all culturally-charged sensory inputs throughout people's lives don't have any effect on people at all. If you can't see how obviously bogus that idea is, that's your problem, not mine. Ciao! 141.134.75.236 (talk) 22:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm a little late to this party and I'm jumping back a few paragraphs but to call school shootings "rare" is a little mindblowing. The US averages more than one a month. FFS, that is not "rare" by any measure. The fact that it can be considered rare by some says a great deal about how much gunplay the US is prepared to put up with. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Sure, look at the US. But then also look at South Korea, which averages 0 school shootings per year (I don't know if they've ever had one, in fact), and they are much more avid about video games over there. Nullahnung (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
WTF? This isn't a even a conversation about video games. Do you think if it involves Anita Sarkeesian it must be all about the Gamergate? Also, as per Wikipedia, "South Korea has one of the most restrictive gun policies in the world": privately owned guns are heavily restricted (for hunting or sport only) & stored in police custody when not in use. Makes school shootings kind of an unlikely occurrence. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
How did you come to the conclusion that I was talking about Anita or Gamergate? I wasn't I was simply adding a point to the whole school shooting in US and what they have to do with violence in video games topic that this thread (as in, this particular side branch that was just started) seems to be about (which has barely anything to do with our article here other than the Jack Thompson comparison). Nullahnung (talk) 02:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
If you weren't talking about Anita Sarkeesian, you're on the wrong page. This is a thread about comments she made about "ideas of toxic masculinity in our culture" (not specifically video games) contributing to mass shooting. See OP for the relevant links. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
But if someone here branches the discussion off to somewhere that then has barely anything to do with Anita, I can participate in that, no? I don't pretend to be well-versed in etiquette here, so if you prefer I don't do such things, then ok I'll try not to. Nullahnung (talk) 02:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what branch you're talking about. A couple of people mentioned video games as examples of cultural influencers, but the strawman you're tilting at (that video games directly cause killing sprees) isn't something anybody has said or implied. Your comment seemed to be a response to Doxys Midnight Runner, who wasn't even talking about games at all. WěǎšěǐǒǐďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Someon brought up the it's-been-proven-violent-video-games-don't-make-you-more-violent thing and then used it to argue that cultural media have no effect on people at all. I think that's where Nullahnung got it from. Or he was thinking of this discussion. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, 141.134.75.236 is right on that one. There was also the confusing indentation which got me, which has since been fixed. I'll try to be more careful next time. Nullahnung (talk) 09:17, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Speaking of why there's such a great discrepancy of school schooting occurrences between countries, I think one of the major reasons is because in most countries, there's no (or hardly any) precedent for the act. But the fact that school schootings are "a thing" in America sadly lowers the treshold considerably for troubled youngsters to commit the act. Well, that and the availability of guns in America. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 04:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It comes down to gun ownership. US (90 guns per hundred residents), Switzerland (45.7), and Finland (45.3) are the top 3 rich Western countries (Serbia and Yemen are the real #2 and #3, but the first has been in much political turmoil and the second is even currently almost a war zone). In 2000-2010 there were ~50 US school shootings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2000s), or a rate of 50 / 300 ~ 0.17 shootings per million residents and Finland had 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_school_shooting) for a rate of 2 / 5 ~ 0.4 per million (ofc that statistic is much more noisy). Switzerland (as far as I can tell) had none, but that is also very embarrassing for Sarkeesian's argument, seeing how Switzerland didn't give women the vote until the 70's (in stark contrast to Finland) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_Switzerland) and they are one of the few countries where women are still a minority in higher education: (http://www.oecd.org/gender/data/populationwhoattainedtertiaryeducationbysexandagegroup.htm). I suspect the real reason the Swiss don't get school shootings is that gun ownership is lower in the age group of school shooters, because they are competitive in gun deaths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate): US 10.30 per 100k, Switzerland 3.84, Finland 3.64. --Someon (talk) 18:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Sarkeesian didn't make any comment about Switzerland, nor draw any connection between school shootings & female suffrage. There are enough cultural differences between these countries (& way more when you add in South Korea, Japan, etc) that you can't really put them in all the same bag. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel
Now you are just being ignorant and simple. If I trust the OP she explicitly blamed the patriarchy for school shootings. Japan and Korea have essentially no guns in the hands of private citizens, so it's moronic to use them as examples. --Someon (talk) 21:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Sarkeesian commented on "ideas of toxic masculinity in our culture". Where you're getting that she was including Switzerland within that statement, or should be "embarrassed" by Switzerland's lack of school shooting, I have no idea. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
If you are really failing to see the connection, I'll have to keep insisting you are mentally handicapped. But to make it plain: Sarkeesian's ramblings are blatantly self-serving to start with, and every stone I turn makes them seem more laughable. There is little evidence to support them and plenty to counter them. Why you want to hang out on such a sinking ship nobody knows, though I have an idea. --Someon (talk) 22:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
How are you countering Sarkeesian's claims by citing another country which has fairly high levels of gun ownership & where mass shootings are virtually non-existent? Doesn't this tend to support Sarkeesian's argument that the root causes are cultural & undermine your own claim that "it comes down to gun ownership"? WěǎšěǐǒǐďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Sure. But then she would need to show how the US instills an especially "toxic" form of masculinity to account for all the school shootings. Good luck with that, like. Robledo (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Well what else accounts for all the school shootings, when you actually think about how other countries that do have fairly easy access to guns somehow don't have this problem? We've seen vague talk of testosterone & biologically determined mental illness. Are there sound reasons for believing such factors to be more prevalent in the US than elsewhere? Or is the possibility than the main differences are cultural really so outlandish? ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 00:29, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm sympathetic to the idea of a cultural component, and not blind to the fact that most violent crimes are committed by men. However, any cultural component is likely to be insanely difficult to delineate, and even harder to address effectively. FWIW, my money is on the near-idolatry of the right to bear arms as both a symbol of freedom from oppression, and as an echo of a founding mythos rich in tales of lone gunmen blowing folks' heads off for great justice. Frankly, clearer heads would begin with trying to reduce US teenagers' easy access to firearms and ammunition. Robledo (talk) 01:41, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
That's assuming all toxic forms of masculinity would motivate people to commit the specific act of a school schooting. There are plenty ways it can express itself, and in America school schootings have apparently "caught on" as a particular extreme way it can express itself. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 23:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Is this the right thread to post my opinion of gun control in Switzerland and and how different cantons interpret it?--Coffee (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure, knock yourself out. That's not something I hear about everyday. Nullahnung (talk) 20:54, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Does this gigantic conversation even have a point anymore?

Personally, I'm inclined to think it doesn't. We're basically stuck in an argument about Vivian's views about what feminism is, rather than anything constructive to the article. I'd like to see that part, if it really is only part, of the conversation taken to a debate or forum namespace. Ikanreed (talk) 15:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Not particularly, it's meandered quite a bit. I'd vote to moving the whole thing to a debate, unless we are done with it --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It's a "someone is wrong on the internet" discussion. To quote Varian Yeah, I made this post because I was angry at her making a school shooting all about her politics, but now I want to see if I can prove her wrong! so he's now playing what I call Sarkeesian Gotcha - a common game among her detractors.
I'd let it stand. Varian, like Phoar, that other guy we had a few days ago, is one of those "reasonable" types who, when given enough rope, hang themselves. More and more his true colours are coming out. I was quite impressed by his having left feminism behind. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I actually bothered to talk and explain to him and got him to see how one of his beliefs was misled (the Jack Thompson comparison). I have a feeling if more people bothered to communicate and educate and less people went about trying to discover faults in others and harping on about them "hanging themselves", society might make progress at a faster rate. Nullahnung (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Did it ever? You guys might as well put a notice on the page advising that dissenters are MRAs and nothing they say will affect the article. Nutty Roux (talk) 18:26, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure, the original "point" was an trivially shot down misrepresentation of something she said. That got handled and then spun out into a giant "feminism is so evil" debate. Ikanreed (talk) 19:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
@Nutty Roux - the thing about all these dissenters is that they completely miss the point. This article is not so much about Ms Sarkeesian as about the way she, and by extension, other women, got treated by the gaming community - not just those who abused her but also by those who stood by and did nothing. I doesn't matter one iota about her scholarship, or whether she's a true gamer, or whether she's made some gaffe. I don't want to sanctify her, I don't even agree that much with what she says. But I won't stand quietly by when people try to make out that the abuse didn't matter - or that, somehow, she deserved it.
That's why I talk about Sarkeesian Gotcha - it's exactly the same as Thunderf00t trawling through her masters thesis. Why are they so keen to attack everything she says or does? Why does it matter so much to them that they're prepared to spend so much time and effort arguing over minutiae? I suggest that it's to justify, in their own minds, what has been done to her but, surely as eggs are eggs, whatever she's done she cannot justify those level of vilification. It's not all about ethics in games journalism. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Why? It's because their masculinity is so fragile that a woman saying something bad about men or suggesting making what they consider "men things" more accessible for women is apparently a very major threat to it. So they lose their shit and try to assert dominance through threats and violence. I'm probably generalizing a bit too much here, but sadly I think it's about accurate for a lot of them. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 19:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I'd say that's definitely generalizing a bit. And that it's doing so in a kinda stereotypical way. My own view is that the threats and violence are a natural consequence of any extremist exclusionary identity politics. There's plenty of completely unrelated examples out it there. It's not some undiscovered character flaw that can really otherise them that much. It's just any time a major group announces that so and so is coming to take away your way of life, some people in their group go "Yeah! And I'm going to stop them!" Ikanreed (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Another goddamn pointless discussion

"Why? It's because their masculinity is so fragile that a woman saying something bad about men or suggesting making what they consider "men things" more accessible for women is apparently a very major threat to it."
Why what and who? If it's people like Thunderfoot, then you're full of shite muyte. If it's the anonymous trolls, well, a portion of them certainly. Your disclaimers noted :D
"My own view is that the threats and violence are a natural consequence of any extremist exclusionary identity politics."
They're also a natural consequence of various other things.
"that so and so is coming to take away your way of life"
Case in point - when something like that happens, no additional ideological views are required; they're just defending their space. In the case of the attackers, of course, the way they go about it is as unethical as it is ineffective :) 93.223.1.35 (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Just because you're not sanctifying her, doesn't mean others don't - and a lot of others, in fact, do. When they're not outright sanctifying her, they're acting like her points and agenda are completely valid and her dissenters are reactionary bigots. If you find it puzzling that this motivates people to mock and pick her apart more than they would otherwise, then maybe you ought to get out more.
Thunderfoot's latest video was mostly satire (he does that often), however, it had a point - the "exposing" of her agenda as something significantly kookier than what it appears as on the surface.
If the article isn't about her but only the "vile backlash" - then why does it spend so much space on explaining her various points, as well as on dismissing video responses and criticisms as ad homs or "nonsense claims"? And what matters it what "this article" is limited to, if related pages spend paragraphs defending her points?
As for the vilification, and especially if that's what this article is claimed to be all about, the perspective would be much improved if:
1) the serious threats were separated from those that are commonplace on the internet, accounting for her increased prominence and inflammatory statements, and
2) it was conceded that only a portion of those have to do with sexism or any other real-life attitudes, while the rest is just assholes,
upon which an attempt was made to capture both proportions.
The internet is full of trolls and part-time assholes, and gaming culture in particular is known for its heavy trash talking. Any attempt to demonstrate a new claim such as "it's also full of male chauvinist pigdogs" that doesn't take those factors into account, is pretty much pointless (or serves an agenda).
And if you wanna talk about people saying that the "abuse didn't matter" (or not enough to emphasize it this much), you should exclude all those who're saying that on the basis of having received abuse themselves and shrugged it off - or it becomes laughably rather quickly.
As for Gamergate, I don't know much about it as a whole, but until you stop counting the anti-feminist segment of it "among the baddies", many arguments made about that topic will be severely flawed as well.
To sum up my point: thoughts like "I suggest that it's to justify, in their own minds, what has been done to her" = part of the problem, bad for the article(s). 93.223.1.35 (talk) 20:28, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
This argument lost its credibility the moment it claimed that our article justified any of her points. We list a few highlighted points of hers at the beginning and that's the end of that section. Ikanreed (talk) 20:47, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
At the bottom, there's a section called "nonsense claims made against her" which attempt to rebuke a couple of such criticisms. Also there's a couple of sentences here and there that dismiss criticisms in general as ad hominems. Stop lying.
Also, I said her points are being justified elsewhere (on the Thunderfoot page) and that I don't see any reason not to consider it a case of outsourcing.
Also, you list a lot of those points, so the article isn't just about the attacks - however, I don't have any problem with those details staying there :)
Wanna keep saying this page in no way defends her against critics, remove those bits where it does - simple. 93.223.1.35 (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't defend her against constructive criticism, or other valid criticisms. It only defends her against nonsense, or what we think is nonsense anyways. Nullahnung (talk) 21:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Bottom line, the article defends her against criticism even though someone here claims it doesn't. The fact that you's think it's nonsense is of no concern - a lot of what is considered "nonsense" around here actually isn't, and you wouldn't try to rebuke criticisms that you think are valid in the first place. 93.223.1.35 (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Oooooooooooh, you're an idiot, that helps me understand your position a lot better. Have you considered the following alternate remediation to your concerns: reading what is actually written in that section? Ikanreed (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Already made a Talk section about that, been there done that kthx. 93.223.1.35 (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
No, see you said that section somehow represented a defense of her points, this is about now you reestablishing credibility as having an honest point. Saying you were critical before doesn't mean you actually provided evidence of your absurd claim you just made. I have a thing for intellectually honest arguments, and you better get on board. Ikanreed (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I said no such thing. It reads: "which attempt to rebuke a couple of such criticisms" - in this case, criticisms made against her credibility and general agenda (which actually is one of her "points", but I'll be lenient here for once). Seems legit to me... 93.223.1.35 (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
What are the problems with her "general agenda"? I get the impression she just wants there to be more video games aimed at women rather than mostly ones aimed at men --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:52, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
In this context, it's: "She's claiming that sexist tropes in video games make gamers more sexist, it's just as bullshit as Jack Thompson"
As I've pointed out in the "no-nonsense" section, the rebuttal below goes on to merely rephrase that as "perpetuating" sexism, thereby confirming it. No, she doesn't support censorship, and yes, she does claim that. So this page does defend her against a piece of criticisms, and a couple others - people should stop claiming otherwise ;) 93.223.1.35 (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
But it's not the same. Jack Thompson claiming that violence in video games will make people more violent is not on the same level as saying that sexist tropes are reinforced through the medium of video games. Nullahnung (talk) 08:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
So it's not a nonsense claim then :p 84.187.126.229 (talk) 10:47, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
(EC)Well, it doesn't have "zero sense at all", seeing how people will fall for that line of thinking, but it's a comparison that was not thought through properly, hence nonsense. Nullahnung (talk) 11:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
They are two entirely different things. It's one thing to become violent because you consume a certain media, another for it to influence your values or make you more sexist --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
They are different things. Still, it is plausible but not certain, that video games have any significant effect on influencing values/causing sexist attitudes. Personally, I find the argument more persuasive that sexist tropes, because they are so prevalent and there's not enough alternatives, hold video games back via stagnation/as a barrier to diverse tastes. Nullahnung (talk) 11:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
My take has always been that the Thompson-esque theory was that people (and particularly children) blindly go out and copy what they did in games - one thoroughly discredited. The tack taken by Sarkeesian is more that entertainment can influence how we think and can shape our attitudes, which in turn affects are behaviour in non-direct ways. A game about punching someone in the face might not inspire me to deliver a knuckle sandwich to anyone, but it might make me view fisticuffs as more generally acceptable. The evidence that this indirect effect exists is pretty much overwhelming, although of course it's power depends an awful lot on pre-existing personal and societal attitudes and the way that the entertainment is presented. There can be discussion as to how much of an effect a particular class of portrayal has, and which population sub-groups might be more responsive to it, but to claim that such influence doesn't exist at all is to want to throw out decades of psychological research. Queex (talk) 11:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I think that's a good way of looking at it. Still, the uncertain nature of this influence means that, while it is definitely deserving of consideration, I find other arguments, like the diversity one, more convincing that we should try to encourage better representation of women in video games. Nullahnung (talk) 11:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
May I quickly remind y'all that this is about whether this page takes any stance on the validity of Anita or her critics, and my point that it does remains valid? Thanks.
At the end of the day, there are parallels between her and Thompson as well as differences, and there are valid things that can be said about "the influence" as well as invalid ones. And, as anyone who's spent some time looking around the web regarding this topic should've caught, people have made different kinds of arguments against her along these lines - so some of them are valid, others nonsense.
This Talk page might end up cleaner if further discussions about this went to the proper section :) 84.187.126.229 (talk) 12:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] To all who want to post here

Please, please, go back and re-read the article. In particular re-read the Jim Sterling quote which, quite frankly, says it all.

OK, now read the artical again. Note how we're pretty neutral on her views and, in no way, go out to sanctify her. As such we are not particularly interested if you have discovered errors or problems in her work. That is not the point.

So, what is the point? As far as I am concerned she has become a symbol of much that is wrong in the world of gaming. Rational, even tempered discourse has become increasingly hard as the voices of reason are drowned out by the screams of vile hatred against those who dare to criticise and, in particular women. I know it's not all gamers and I know that some of it is part and parcel of the rough and tumble of the internet but to any reasonable observer the villification that Ms Sarkeesian, and Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu have received is so far off the scale as to be hard to credit.

So, yeah, if you want to discuss the article then go ahead. But, quite frankly, if your only point is to criticise her scholarship or to say that, somehow, she is "wrong" then, as far as I am concerned, this is not the forum. As Jim puts it

But we can't talk about that anymore, because the debate's not about whether she's right or wrong. The debate was invalidated when people tried to ruin her life en masse. The chance to debate her on merit was lost once people started threatening to rape her.
—Jim Sterling

But, OK, these are my views and not necessarily the views of the RW community Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 17:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. That needed to be said. Nullahnung (talk) 18:34, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
These are exactly my views too, this should be at the top of the page consistently --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 20:51, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Appeal to emotion on a RationalWiki. Pretty much tells me everything I need to know. — Unsigned, by: 58.111.71.7 / talk / contribs
"Oh look, a miniscule portion of editors on a site edited by many happened to make a miniscule portion of comments on a site that has many in a way I did not expect, that must say something about that site!" Nullahnung (talk) 09:56, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Lol that’s just your own version of “I’m not racist but”. Or maybe “token Sakeesian critic”.
Quit defending her against “claims” or dismissing the critics as “half-assed” or ad homs or mansplainers and then come back here.
No, no one’s being “drowned out” by the harassment, only by you and the press – the reasonable criticisms can be easily found by searching YT or Google, and are likely to cover the entirety of the first couple of pages; some of those coming from notable web personalities to boot. Both this circumstance, as well the fact that Sarkeesian still keeps making videos and giving talks about her subject, and I believe was employed by some video game company to give advice or something, kinda make this Sterling guy not entirely right on this. Sterling is not right!
By obfuscating or denying anything that is wrong with her message/agenda, you just reinforce the image that this harassment stems from misogyny (or hostility towards "just merely criticism") in gaming culture when, in fact, a lot of it is accounted for BY the problems in and inflammatory nature of her statements... which, ironically, stands in the way of capturing the extent of both the bigotry element of it as well as its "off-the-scaleness" in general.
However, far be it from me, an aspiring non-ideologue, to whine about you “reinforcing images” – just quit defending her on the page if you wanna claim neutrality, or in the talk section if you don’t want people to object and start discussions.
Seems logical to me.. 93.223.51.69 (talk) 00:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Congratulations, I don't think you could've missed the point more severely than you have. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 01:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
All points have been dealt with brilliantly. 93.223.7.59 (talk) 22:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Antagonistic feminism at its finest

I hate to be the one to say this, but Anita Sarkeesian is hurting feminism so badly that unless another huge rape comes along sometime soon (preferably one that actually happened, you know, for real and wasn't just made up), feminism is going to die.

As a man, I might have to be the one to bite the bullet here. Feminism is losing support and people are starting to turn on it. But deep down, I do believe there's a real honesty in it that has been suppressed by extremists like Sarkeesian. So I don't want feminism to die.

In other words, I might have to go out and rape someone -- for feminism. To save feminism, butt rape must happen. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that all of women's rights depend on me taking someone by force while dressed like a clown. Everything feminists have fought for from the beginning to now: it all hinges on whether or not I jump out of the bushes at some hot chick. But no fat ones. Ew.

But anyway, I'm glad that feminists don't intentionally behave in such a way as to draw the ire and venom of anyone who encounters them on purpose for a reaction. They would never do that, and neither would I. And because they haven't done it, they wouldn't recognize it even if they saw it happening. I don't know why, though, because antagonizing people always brings out the best in everyone :) I'm amazed Anita hasn't gotten more support!

For feminism. Parogar (talk) 19:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


Also, I'd like to add that she shouldn't have been dressed that way if she didn't want me to jump out of the bushes like that. Praise Jesus and Merry Christmas. Parogar (talk) 19:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Troll (Seriously, don't.) Nullahnung (talk) 20:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Credibility of the threats

1. The local police department made no mention of receiving any report from Anita about the supposed threats she received. You know, the ones that made her leave her home? Apparently, these didn't warrant mentioning to the police.

2. The speech she cancelled? Apparently, "there was no credible threat to students, staff or the speaker, and (...) this letter was intended to frighten the university into cancelling the event". Anyone else thinks this deserves to be mentioned in the article? There's a long stretch between a bomb-threat and an actual bomb. --Norman (talk) 16:02, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Why are you rehashing months old gator nonsense? The gator blog you linked in your first point is completely wrong as usual: see link. As for your second point, that was not a bomb threat but a shooting threat, so what are you even talking about? Typhoon (talk) 17:55, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
1. This article does, indeed, show that she received threats over the internet. Just like Christian Weston Chandler, I guess, except that people actually care about her, for some reason. 2. My bad. It was a shooting threat, as you yourself pointed out, prior to asking me what I was talking about, which was pretty unnecessary considering you already corrected it... well, rationality works in mysterious ways. --Norman (talk) 21:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Correction: All the first article shows is that it's likely she received threats. --Norman (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Let me repeat Typhoon's question: Why are you rehashing months old gator nonsense?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Because this site keeps repeating even older anti-gator nonsense. --Norman (talk) 22:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
What nonsense is this? Is it that she reported her threat to the authorities but someone contacted the police department and the police department accidentally gave them wrong information? Or that she decided despite the fact that USU felt that there was no threat she felt safer to cancel because anyone in Utah can open carry?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
No, I'm talking about the fact that this article consistently portrays Sarkeesian as a modern feminist-superhero, for some reason. And that the GamerGate article completely failed to mention the threats made to Yiannopoulos or the harassment coming from anti-gators. You know, stuff like that. --Norman (talk) 00:02, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
That's because people are more likely to believe someone who can show the fact that she has been harassed on a daily basis for close to 2 years and now requires a security detail rather than someone who works for a newspaper that regularly lies to cast their political opponents in a bad light, was sued for withholding pay for his employees, and recently published a book of poetry full of plagiarism.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
We can thank Gamergate's hilarious overreaction for Anita becoming a "modern feminist-superhero". The relentless harassment from GG will continue all the way until she becomes President of the USA. Typhoon (talk) 00:11, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
With luck, by that point all of the GG/MRA/whatever clowns will all have gone seasteading, sunk, and drowned. Queexchthonic murmurings 13:24, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
And what about all the other gators who have been harassed? Did they withhold pay from their employees, too? This one's really great in particular, I think: Link. Please mind that it's the anti-gators who have started throwing around words like "sexism" and "harassment" in the first place. --Norman (talk) 12:42, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
The last time someone directed me to that particular tumblr, I was astounded at the complete lack of any harassment on display. I note that the latest post on it is a tweet from November, and does not include anything remotely resembling harassment. You get much worse from GG about every twenty minutes. I think what we have here is another demonstration that GG, in general, does not understand the difference between harassment and insult. Queexchthonic murmurings 13:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Harassment is baaaad, but insults are completely alright? Stuff like advocating genital mutilation, calling someone a slut and a whore that deserves to be raped, threateningly telling someone you hope her windows are locked, threatening to stab and shoot someone, calling for use of deadly force against individuals affiliated with #GamerGate, threatening people over the phone, doxxing and threatening someones family and and much, much more. Is that alright? --Norman (talk) 14:51, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
No, it's not okay. Nowhere do I say that, or anything like it. What I do say is that it is much, much, 'much' more common flowing in one direction than in the the other. Hence trying to draw a 'they're just as bad as the others' equivalence is either profoundly stupid or greatly dishonest. I suspect that a lot of GG are, in fact, aware of the disparity which is why so much of the stuff on that tumblr is weaksauce - they're trying to pad the numbers so that it isn't so obvious. As in that November example I specifically talked about, instead of whatever I seemed to be saying in that weird conversation happening inside your head. Queexchthonic murmurings 16:25, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
If it's much more common, then why do I only ever read about abuse happening to Quinn, Sarkeesian or Wu? These are a total of three people. Aside from that, what I'm reading are mostly petty remarks and insults, no death threats. If you want to argue with the numbers, then go ahead, prove to me that GamerGate is harassing, threatening and insulting at least as many people as Anti-GamerGate. What puzzles me is why we're talking about numbers in the first place when you explicitly contended the quality and not the amount of abuse that happened. Oh, now I remember: Because you just changed the topic mid-conversation and pretended it was always about the amount and not the quality of abuse. That's just cheap. --Norman (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Educate yourself: Gamergate on this very wiki gives a good rundown of some of the other targets. Not that it even matters for this point, because we were talking about the amount of harassment in each direction, not the number of targets. It's pretty obvious you were never intending to argue in good faith here, given that your first point was attempt to call into question the fact that she had received threats. When you were shot down on that, you then tried to play the false equivalence game. When you were called on that, you're trying to pretend that it's everyone apart from you who's changing the subject. It's not working. Queexchthonic murmurings 19:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
This site has demonstrated its "good faith" when it created completely one-sided articles about a topic that couldn't be more controversial. Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind a neutral, objective article on the topic, one that isn't a propaganda piece for GamerGate. This article is not neutral or objective, however. It lists terrible things gaters have done, while completely ignoring how gaters have been harassed, how they have condemned actions undertaken under the label of GamerGate and how anti-gaters have gone out of their way to stop any discussion about the whole affair dead, which - surprise! - hasn't exactly helped potential gaters stay out of "bad neighborhoods". Now that that's out of the way: Yes, I did question whether Anita received threats. When I was presented evidence that she did receive threats I adjusted my view, which was clear from my very first reply. Yes, I was still snarky (like every single article on this wiki, by the way), but I corrected the one error in my view that I felt needed correction, just as I changed my opinion about Brianna Wu when I found out that the aspie-hate she was supposedly spewing came from a troll-account. That doesn't mean that any shady website-owner or journalist jumping the anti-GamerGate bandwagon has any of my sympathy or support, though. --Norman (talk) 21:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
You've changed your opinion on the threats and on the troll's attempt to libel Wu -- that's good. The next step is to realise that the narratives of 'both sides are slinging death threats at each other!' and 'anti-GG are trying to close down discussion!' both come from the same unreliable sources as the earlier canards. GG advocates have already demonstrated a fast and loose attitude to the truth on occasion, as you've conceded. Why then, should you take their interpretation at face value in other matters? Why would an article about Anita Sarkeesian -- specifically the harassment she has received -- include any broad tu quoque assertions by her harassers anyway? Unless she herself has been harassing people, it's way off-topic. The only reason GG is controversial is because of the harassment it generates, as it continues the crooked work of earlier misogynists wailing against perceived enemies in some sort of culture war. It's not controversial in a 'these two sides are at loggerheads while sensible people look on in despair' sense, it's controversial in a 'no-one can quite believe how messed up this bunch of blowhards is' sense. The sort of neutrality you seem to want would have to bend the truth to breaking point to avoid making the GG movement look as bad as it is, and would be exactly the kind of false neutrality that gives succour to vaccine denialists and other cranks. GG is a crank movement, and should be given the same treatment on this wiki as any other. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:05, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The real question here, is why when faced with direct evidence that your statements are falsehoods, you double down, rather than rethink your position. Like how shitty and broken is your brain where that isn't important to you?

Like you've framed this into a world where Sarkeesian is a liar, who's out to manipulate everyone. Your evidence for this is now nothing. Why do you persist?

You don't get the nuance here that no one at rationalwiki views her videos as uniquely insightful or anything, and her only reason for discussion on here is the actions of her detractors. We're certainly not vociferous defenders of her positions. Ikanreed (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, you're not? Must be why you went out of your way to mention her academic achievements right at the beginning of the article, then went out of your way to mention her highlights (yes, you even called them that), and, in general, portrayed all her findings as objective truths, as opposed to mere opinions. --Norman (talk) 14:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
"you... discussed... facts about her! That belies a pro-position bias!" Are you going to say we're in favor of this douche because we mention he's descended from Mohammed? Or this crazy because we mention he has a PhD? Come on, bro. Highlighting her actual points is crucial context for establishing why her crazy attackers are crazy. Ikanreed (talk) 15:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
The tone makes a big difference, you know? Anita is "explaining" and "pointing out" things in this article, as opposed to "trying to explain" them. The article also says that she has to keep working, which implies that her work has any merit. I could go on, but I think I've made my point. --Norman (talk) 15:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
You've come in here blustering about completely untrue statements. Then you've twisted around to claim that it's about being explicitly in support of her videos, then you further spun that as if you were making some ambiguous-as-fuck argument about tone all along, which you then terminate with "I think I've made my point". None of this addresses your personal mistakes along the way.
Should I give you a line-by-line critique of that article? I could. I could take every single sentence and show you exactly how it portrays her views as objectively correct. I'm not going to do that, however, because I don't feel like wasting my time. If I do that, this page will be locked, plain and simple. At best, another anti-gator will give me a two-liner calling me dumb or sad or whatever mean adjectives you have that are just mean enough to sound slightly insulting but not too mean to get you banned. Maybe you'll even confront me with the "fact" that GamerGate has destroyed billions of lifes and then cite Sarkeesian as your one and only example. --Norman (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
It's a sad, sad life you live where this is important to you. Ikanreed (talk) 16:19, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Right, I forgot: We are not allowed to criticize her work after all that was done to her! Instead, we must praise it. Do I get this straight? Is it a new rationalwiki-policy to praise victims because they are victims? --Norman (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Assuming that your point was you're far more biased than you claim the article is and love tendentious argumentation, then yes, you have. Queexchthonic murmurings 16:25, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with tendentiousness per se, which probably puts me at odds with most people, but I do expect it to be done from an intellectually honest position. Ikanreed (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
In my short time on this website, I've seen two discussion-pages get locked. Do you call that intellectual honesty? --Norman (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes. I do. You know that page was locked (just from anonymous and very new users mind) because of boring repetitive comments. I know that. Pretending there's some deeper suppressing of free speech issue is exactly the kind of intellectual dishonesty I was saying I don't like. With all that in mind, do you have any non-counter-factual changes to suggest here, or are you just taking your pet persecution complex for a walk? Ikanreed (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Nice loaded question you have there. Do you honestly expect an answer to a loaded question? --Norman (talk) 19:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, that's a no on having some meaningful change to suggest to the page. I'm honestly glad you can identify a false dilemma. It's a good skill. But you need to work on identifying sarcasm. Ikanreed (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

And you have to work on noticing when people are willfully ignoring your sarcasm. --Norman (talk) 21:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Start having a point. Ikanreed (talk) 21:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Демиурги

[edit] Disgrace to rationalism

“We” have a article full of what is nothing more than opinions masqueraded as fact for dimwits to further regurgitate and further re-inforce. Knowing this is one of those matters where rational people have to thread on eggshells I was very careful yesterday doing some small, editing merely removing and rephrasing a small (small because of time constraints not lack of opinionated texts and propaganda) portion of texts that where clearly opinionated The text where under the laughable header “Nonsense claims often made against her”, my editing, giving more thorough citation of Anita saying “I am not a fan of videogames”, with a thorough explanation of context which seemed to be required by the powers that be. However clearly “we” is not looking for truth since the text is now reverted to the opinionated explanation of the the dissent. I also more clearly made the case of the juxtaposition that has been made to Jack Thompson and his arguments vs Anita Sarkeesian and her arguments, again this was removed and a opinion was re-instated in the wiki. So I’d like to remind “we” of what it is you claim to stand for, from the main page; “Our purpose here at RationalWiki includes: 1. Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement. 2. Documenting the full range of crank ideas. 3. Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism. Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.”

Now statements such as “You can make an argument that she sometimes says nonsense because she doesn't understand the game she's talking about (talking about being able to kill NPC's for money in GTA SA, or NPC corpses disappearing in-game which happens for technical reasons), but again, we aren't really interested in how well Sarkeesian critiqued X cultural product, we're only interested in the disproportionate backlash she's received, which often don't consist of well-meaning constructive criticism, but rather just bile.” This is, so disgusting so horrible that it makes me very very angry, now this may perhaps make you very glad since I am a man, however, I’m not angry for the ideas that you perpetuate but rather because of the principles of which you violate in the name of supposed rationalism. You quiet clearly state to anyone smarter then a rock that ”we” have an agenda. So overtly that even a rock can at least given time infer it from your actions. ”we” who claim to be RATIONALWIKI. I am incredibly disgusted by this behavior and I will leave it at that. I will add I use the word in no way lightly or frivolously. So to brake this down, you complete disregard peer-review, you do not document the full range of ideas wheatear or not they are in your opinion a “crank” idea. But I do give credit where credit is due and perhaps number 3 is spot on, you do explore authoritarian and fundamental ideas but perhaps, exercising would be a more suitable word, maybe edit the main page? Thank you have a good day. — Unsigned, by: Hurdur / talk / contribs

Your edits were reverted because they were a significant change in stance for the article and you didn't discuss the change on the talk page first, which is standard editing procedure on this wiki. The reason we are not discussing the mistakes she makes when critiquing cultural products is because that's not what she is notable for. There are thousands upon thousands of sloppy critics of cultural products out there that make mistakes during their work. If that was a topic that we discuss on this wiki then we'd have more articles about cultural critics. It isn't. Sarkeesian is notable for the disproportionate rage and hate that her rather harmless work received. And no, it doesn't make me glad that you're angry, just sad. Nullahnung (talk) 09:08, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
To make the second point (the "not a gamer" thing) clear in the "nonsense claims" section I added another reference (http://goingrampant.tumblr.com/post/63630373479/the-latest-anita-sarkeesian-not-a-gamer-thing) and explanation which you may find clarifies the point a bit more.
About the juxtaposition of Jack Thompson to her, it is not a fair one and the comparison is inappropriate. "Video games cause violence" is not comparable to "video games perpetuate sexist tropes". Also, Jack Thompson advocates censorship of video games based on his "analysis" of them, Sarkeesian advocates no such thing, or at least I haven't heard her say so yet. Nullahnung (talk) 09:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
It always kind of gives the game away when someone tries to pass off a huge change to an article as an m revision, doesn't it? Do they really think that an axe-grinding edit against the prevailing stance of RW is genuinely minor? Do they think that marking it as m somehow makes it more likely to slip past other editors unnoticed? Either way, it's a very strong indication that the edit was in bad faith, no matter how much whining is done on the talk page after the fact. For someone staking a claim to 'More rational than thou', it demonstrates a stark lack of thinking skills. It's fascinating. Queexchthonic murmurings 12:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing rational about instigating that all MRA's are "misogynist" in their nature, yet the very same thing is implied when she's supposedly "hated" (not critiqued?!) by "MRAs and other misogynists on the Internet". The whole article is full with questionable wording like that, which only few people seems to take an issue with. It's also disgraceful when the article is supposed to reflect on the "disproportional backlash" she's receiving, while never even mentioning the critique of her "work". It makes it look like people only disagree with her to be "misogynist", while never even mentioning valid criticism, which in many places shows her lack of knowledge on the topics she's supposedly "researching". If the "hate" she's receiving is supposed to be the topic here, then her part in that cycle certainly deserves mention too, because a lot of that "hate" has been the result of her questionable conclusions and flat out lies about what's possible and supposedly motivated in modern media. 88.217.227.41 (talk) 17:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Instigating? Do you mean insinuating? Which is still the wrong word, because we more or less state it directly. And yes, hated is the right word for death threats. "I'm going to kill you" has never been a critique. Sorry. And the "backlash" is the only thing worth noting here. Random disagreements on the internet are plentiful and not noteworthy. Ikanreed (talk) 17:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Game being deleted

So, rather than reverting, I thought I'd bring up the BoN's change here for discussion. Is Newsgrounds' deletion of the game from their servers relevant to the topic? The key point here is that someone affiliated with gamergate made the thing in the first place. What a third party did with it seems tangential, but I don't want to unilaterally declare that. Ikanreed (talk) 20:44, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

The game is likely available elsewhere, so it really doesn't matter. Revert away. Zero (talk - contributions) 21:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I thought of that. I went with the first few pages of google results, and didn't see it mirrored. Ikanreed (talk) 21:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I've got, shall we say, dark contacts. It's still around. Zero (talk - contributions) 21:18, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] A legitimate criticism section?

As somebody who takes rationalism very seriously (being a theoretical computer scientist and all), I would really love it if the criticism section gave a legitimate section of criticism. At the present time, it is very one-sided and not for the right reasons. It would be splendid if that were prepared, just like for any other figure on RationalWiki. No person should be immune to actual criticism against their ideas or views. It would be great if RationalWiki had an actual area to include this, if such a page exists on RationalWiki. The fact that the article keeps reverting back every time an actual criticism section is introduced is a sign that some are reverting versions without considering the rationality behind the statements made. To be fair, a lot of things she has said are not supported by any good evidence, and should be questioned. — Unsigned, by: ‎24.246.17.80 / talk / contribs

Wikipedian protester.png Kidding aside, you have presented no argument or statements to support your claim. Zero (talk - contributions) 22:53, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Also, what has computer science got to do with rationality? Compsci is about systems with (short-term, granted) predictable behaviour and easily-tracked states. Acting as though the world has similar qualities is a recipe for bad modelling and bad conclusions. A significant proportion of the pseudoscientists RW covers got that way because they started trying to apply their own narrow speciality to the world in general. Queexchthonic murmurings 23:16, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I say that if you read RW:MISSION and can write a criticism section that is applicable than more power to you. The problem, as I see it, is that deconstructing feminist cultural criticism is pretty far from what we do here. What we do cover is authoritarianism, which the anti-feminist reactionary backlash to Sarkeesian clearly falls under; not to mention the cranky conspiracy theories about her motives and connection with some nefarious plot to bring down Western Civilization. In my opinion the reaction to what she says is much more interesting than what she actually has to say. Her criticism of sexism in video games is pretty standard feminist media criticism, huge volumes of which can be found for literature and movies. The fact that some portions of the internet throw a collective fit about her is the strange part. Marlow (talk) 23:25, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I suppose some may argue Ms. Sarkeesian's opinions on gaming may fall (barely, stretching it) into fundamentalism. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that should be a primary focus of this article. брэндэн (talk) 00:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
We could but most of the arguments against Anita are:

- Ad Hom - Tone - Built around misunderstanding her point - Built around a conspiracy - Red Herring - Obvious misogyny - A rape threat

I have never seen an intelligent argument against her claims.BlackProg (talk) 00:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Some would definitely argue that she's a fundamentalist. They'd be wrong, but they'd still argue it. We have articles on wacky fundamentalist feminists like Cathy Brennan who frequently stray into authoritarianism and even association with the religious right. Someone like Brennan's feminism contrasts with Sarkeesian's very mild from is fucking striking. Marlow (talk) 00:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

You can make an argument that she sometimes says nonsense because she doesn't understand the game she's talking about (talking about being able to kill NPC's for money in GTA SA, or NPC corpses disappearing in-game which happens for technical reasons), but again, we aren't really interested in how well Sarkeesian critiqued X cultural product, we're only interested in the disproportionate backlash she's received, which often don't consist of well-meaning constructive criticism, but rather just bile. Nullahnung (talk) 01:12, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I actually have researched legit criticisms leveled at Anita Sarkeesian that I will parrot here.

- The idea behind her argument that Mattie Ross, from True Grit, is not a feminist character hinges on the idea that Ross promotes more "socially-accepted" masculine values of revenge and violence as opposed to "feminine values" of cooperation and peace. This is a pretty narrow slice, since there is a downside to the more "feminine," cooperative values - such as meekness and submission - which result in women who adopt them having less power and influence, which ultimately hurts women more than it helps them. -She cites Fallout and Dragon Age as examples of a male character exploiting female sex workers, yet both games allow male and female player characters, and both games have male, female and even transgender sex workers. -She shows a double standard toward male and female singers in her criticism of the song "All I Want For Christmas Is You": when it's sung by a girl, it's about how women "only" want/need a man to be happy; when it's sung by a guy like Justin Bieber, it sounds "stalkerish." That's sexist on both accounts. - She lists Dracula's female minions as anti-feminist because they demonize female sexuality. This is a valid critique.... that loses its edge once she makes no mention of how Dracula himself is the embodiment and personification of rape. She critiques the demonization of female sexuality, but doesn't do so for the male character when she was explicitly talking about evil seducers as a topic. -She regards female antagonists, and even anti heroes like the main character of Revenge, as anti-feminist, regardless of whatever the characters' in-universe reasons are for their behavior. This leads to the implication that that her ideal female characters are the "saintly and pure" types, ala Katara from Avatar. -Her praise of non-violent resolutions lead to her associating those instances with femininity, because - as a pacifist herself - she values cooperation and peace more than violence or revenge. However, associating cooperation and peace with feminism isn't the right way to go about it, because these values have always been around in male-dominated societies and aren't necessarily associated with feminism. Hence, her augment is effectively "feminine is good and masculine is bad." -Several inaccuracies in her critiques. For example, she complained about the Powerpuff Girls' use of the "Token Misogynist" trope in a feminist character, while forgetting that said feminist character was not a feminist at all (and the girls point out the irony and hypocrisy of the character in question). -Or dismissing Clarice Starling on account of Starling being overshadowed by Hannibal Lector, even though Starling has the most screen time in the film, has the story arc revolving around her, is an independent thinker, and is the character that viewers identified with. Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins both won Oscars for their roles, yet she saw Starling as an inadequate main character and feminist icon anyway. It's virtually impossible to describe the plot in a way that makes Hannibal seem anything like the lead character, but Sarkeesian says the exact opposite of this. -Claiming that Bayonetta was a single mother, and literally saying that is the only positive thing about her character. The inaccuracy comes from that Bayonetta is not a mother at all - the little girl seen following her is actually a younger version of Bayonetta herself from the past, ala time paradox. She later edited the video removing the parts in which she talks about the game itself and left only her complains about the marketing campaign in Japan, which were much more legitimate. -Instances of plagiarism - she took footage from a lets player and did not credit them with the footage. And so forth. Stuff like that can be used for legitimate criticisms. Serocco (talk) 10:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

See the comment by Nullahnung immediately above. Sure there are many valid criticisms of her work - there are of anyone's work but this article is not about that, it's about the vile and abusive way she was - and is - treated by many in the so called gaming community. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 11:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Jim Sterling put it best. The reason we aren't talking about her points is because it's no longer about her; it's about the assholes who keep throwing sexist remarks at her, subconsciously or otherwise. I still wish we did critique her points, but hey. Serocco (talk) 03:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
The page is about her. Saying it's not about her any longer is anti-thesis to even having a section about her. If you want focus on one subject then it would be prudent to actually make a page specifically for that subject. This page, however, is for the individual known as Anita Sarkeesian and examination of her claims belongs here. Where else would it go? So far it's just a bunch of sycophant pandering with accusations of misogyny thrown at people for giving criticism. This looks more like the Food Babe army at work than a rational wikipedia page. The polarization of information given is audacious and insulting to rational individuals who can quite plainly see the accumulation of bias. - VS
Seconding that. The page is about her. She's hailed as a hero, not presented as a mere victim, and heroes need to be criticized. --Norman (talk) 15:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

It's very sad to see Rational Wiki have this much of a bias towards someone and refuse to criticise the beliefs they put out into the public. Many refutations online have been put forward on many online mediums. Shame on you. 59.100.26.1 (talk) 02:36, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Please, tell us what to criticize. FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 02:51, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
The fact that her videos rip out footage from other lets plays, the fact that the camera quality hasn't improved despite receiving money. Getting plot details wrong.

[edit] Non-misogynistic, non-ad hominem, strawman free, preferably cited, criticism section

Have at it. If you want it, write it. Nobody here is going to do your work for you. - π 03:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Lets she she ripped out other lets play footage for her videos, supported gender segregated trains, got plot details wrong for games like Bayonetta, everything Serocco said. User:LordYAM
Show me the evidence. Zero (talk - contributions) 02:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Could vandalism under "Continued attacks" be reverted?

It seems to have slipped under the radar prior to the article being locked, but the phrase "Why so scared?" is still there, which seems like a bit of chan-style trolling.

Would an admin remove it? Mycohl (talk) 01:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The statement was added in August 2014 before Gamergate was a thing [3]. I think it's asking why her detracters are so scared.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:18, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it could be rewritten to reflect that, then? If I was confused, it's a safe bet that other readers are going to be, as well.Mycohl (talk) 21:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] BoN

I feel like this page makes all gamers look misogynistic. I am a gamer and a gamer gater, but I am against misogyny and the death threats she has received— Unsigned, by: 204.169.64.39 / talk / contribs 17:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you please point out some specific wording in the article that "makes all gamers look misogynistic"?--ZooGuard (talk) 17:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
(EC)That's nice of you, but as to your concerns about misrepresentation, the article scarcely mentions gamers at all. The only statement I can guess you're referring to is this one: "Sarkeesian has taken ownership of the abuse and marshaled it to demonstrate the prevalence of sexism in the gamer community." Which certainly doesn't say anything about all gamers. Just that sexism is prevalent in the community. Ikanreed (talk) 17:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
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