Talk:Anti-Semitism
A statement that anti-Zionism is not antisemitism is plainly wrong, since anti-Zionism can be, and frequently is, a form of antisemitism. Braiman 11:54, 15 March 2008 (EDT)Braiman
- You are completely correct, but this will never stand here. TmtamesP 11:58, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- That is completely incorrect, since anti-Zionism is opposition to the specific political ideology of Zionism, while antisemitism is irrational hatred of Jews in general. The fact that antisemites are by logical extension also anti-Zionists does not mean they're the same. You might as well say that anti-Communism is the same as Russophobia. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 12:08, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
A statement that moving your hands is not comunication is plainly wrong, since moving your hands can be, and frequently is, a form of comunication. NightFlareSpeak, mortal 12:04, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- They are two different things. Of course, having the attribute of antisemitism means that one will probably be anti-Zionist as well, but to construe from that fact the idea that opposition to the political and diplomatic methods of the state of Israel inherently includes antisemitism is as ludicrous as saying that 'since all Frisian cows are black and white, all black and white cows are Frisian'. --מְתֻרְגְּמָן שְׁלֹום
- Ooh, ooh! A fallacy of illicit conversion! Quite a rare beast outside its natural habitats. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 12:24, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- No, its just like how modern conservativism inherently includes fascism, or the belief in the Christian faith inherently includes lunacy or a brain disorder. Both of those views are legit on this site. TmtamesP 12:23, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- And a fallacy of composition! We're really getting some good spottings today. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 12:26, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Opposing to the methods of the state of Israel does not qualify as anti-Zionism, it does not necessarily qualify as Antisemitism either. Yet, if one applies different standards to Israel and others, singles out Israel, criticizes Israeli methods, but ignores or excuses similar methods used by the other side, it is still not sufficient to qualify as anti-Zionism, but it is sufficient to qualify as anti-Semitism.Braiman 13:21, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
The equation of anti-Zionism to antisemitism depends on the belief of territorial self-determination which everyone doesn't believe in. Multiculturalists and internationalists that believe in a border-free world won't equate the two. On the other hand, some people equate Zionism to aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, but that has nothing to do with hating the Jewish people. --Nolidor (talk) 01:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Two Shekels
Anti-Zionism is often a cop-out for antisemitism. I disagree with policies of lots of governments but that doesn't mean I think the entire right of them to exist is at fault, and Zionism is, at it's base, a belief in a Jewish state. I may not be a fan of theocracy, but those who are anti-zionist are almost never simply against settlements, etc, but against the very right of Israel to exist as such. I went to college as this debate caught on and, being a lefty, was present at many pro-Palestinian/anti-Zionist rallies and meetings, most of which frequently were clearly antisemitic.
I was protesting during Gulf War I, when the radio announced missiles falling on Jerusalem. The crowed cheered. I puked.
It's tough for others to understand sometimes, but, given the horrible problems with authoritarianism in the mideast, focusing on anti-Zionism, to those of us with family in Israel, seems a moot distinction.--
-PalMD --Does this sig line make me look fat? 12:36, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- That's putting a certain dichotomy-based spin on things - why not criticise both of them? Also, comparatively lesser human rights violations in more democratic countries can hurt the cause of human rights more, since you get a 'why should we stop when they ...' reaction.
- Also, 95% of those considering themselves Anti-Zionist I know are opposed to the expansionism of Israel (West Bank, for example, and sending in settlers), not the state itself. --מְתֻרְגְּמָן שְׁלֹום
- Why would they consider themselves Anti-Zionists then? The whole Israeli left (~50% of Israeli population) are opposed to the expansionism and settlers, yet most of them are Zionists. The basic tenet of Zionism is establishing an independent state for the Jewish people in the historic homeland of this people. If you support this goal, you are not an anti-Zionist. However, if you deny this basic right to the Jewish people, you are an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite.Braiman 13:03, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- I must say that I agree. Creating a homeland for the Palestinian people does not have to involve the destruction of israel, which is essentially what anti-zionism is.--
-PalMD --Does this sig line make me look fat? 13:26, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Seems to me a lot of this depends on how the terms Zionism and anti-Zionism are used. I've seen some use Zionism basically to mean the God-given absolute right to all of the land of ancient Israel to the Jewish people, with the implication (or outright statement) that the Palestinian people have no rights to it whatsoever. This is an extremist form, but one that does exist. I wouldn't call anyone who balks at that necessarily an anti-semite. But, if Zionism is used to mean the basic right to a state of Israel in some form, then perhaps many or most anti-Zionists are anti-Semites. But it's still a political issue rather than a religious or racial one. In my opinion, it would behoove everyone, whatever their opinions, to admit that the state of Israel is a fait accompli and isn't about to go anywhere, so we can all move forward with settling borders and working out the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank. Israeli settlements in the area are of course a huge issue, and if opposing their expansion is "anti-Zionist" then I suppose I'm "Anti-Zionist" in the sense that so would be nearly half the Israelis, and all my Jewish friends. But under PalMD's definition (which seems to be the more accurate one) I am not anti-Zionist. DickTurpis 14:08, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- I must say that I agree. Creating a homeland for the Palestinian people does not have to involve the destruction of israel, which is essentially what anti-zionism is.--
- Why would they consider themselves Anti-Zionists then? The whole Israeli left (~50% of Israeli population) are opposed to the expansionism and settlers, yet most of them are Zionists. The basic tenet of Zionism is establishing an independent state for the Jewish people in the historic homeland of this people. If you support this goal, you are not an anti-Zionist. However, if you deny this basic right to the Jewish people, you are an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite.Braiman 13:03, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
Just a brief point of order. The original Zionist thinkers were indeed concerned with creating an independent state for the Jewish people. They were not, however, hung up on it being in Palestine and considered other, much more realistic options. That the movement later came to focus on Palestine as the rightful place for such a state is the source of much of the current misery there. --Robledo 13:57, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Yes, they did consider alternatives. The alternatives were rejected at the Zionist Congress for the reason you mentioned -- Palestine (aka the Land of Israel) was the only rightful place for the Jewish state. I don't think that the alternatives were somehow more realistic. How was Uganda more realistic than Palestine? Would the residents of Uganda accept the Jewish state on their land more readily than Arabs? Look what's going on in that area now without the Jewish state on top of it.Braiman 14:23, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- lol :) And how, exactly, does an "atheist, humanist Jew" make the leap to agreeing with statements such as Palestine (aka the Land of Israel) was the only rightful place for the Jewish state. Good luck, son. --Robledo 14:45, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Interesting point Robledo. When does a person of Jewish descent start to regard themself as something other than a Jew if they no longer subscribe to the Jewish faith? It would seem to me that despite racial stereotyping there has been a dilution of the gene pool since the diaspora. We British are often considered a mongrel race with Gaelic, Roman, Viking, Angle, Saxon, Jute, Danish and Norman influences, not to mention recent intermingling with Poles, Chinese, Indians and Africans. I identify myself solely by the country of my birth despite a fair compexion and very big nose.
Genghis Marauding 15:06, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- I think it's up to individuals how they choose to self-identify. I was just ripping it a little on the tension between B's self-description on his user page and his rather shrill statements here and elsewhere. Maintaining character is hard work, though, so he shouldn't feel too bad. --Robledo 15:36, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- I see no contradiction or "tension" as you put it. I'd like to refer you to the Israeli declaration of independence. In its first part it describes the reasons and justifications for establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine from the Zionist point of view. Note that there is no mention of "divine promise" or any other religious argumentation. Note also that Zionism has been conceived and has remained in the mainstream as a completely secular national liberation movement. Religious Zionism has always been a minority branch (they have gained prominence recently, but it's a separate story).
I agree that self-identification is up to individuals. Genetics is only a part of the story. It's a contributing, but not a decisive factor. National identity is more in the minds than in the genes.Braiman 16:10, 15 March 2008 (EDT)- Shite. The early Zionist movement's shift to insistence upon Palestine as the rightful site of a new Jewish state, some two thousand years after the fact of the first, can only be explained in terms of a religious imperative, explicit or otherwise. --Robledo 17:17, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Well, I respectfully disagree. The fact that the Jewish national identity survived for 2000 years cannot be used against it. There is nothing religious about it. "Divine promise" argument is based on a religious myth. The Jewish connection to the lost homeland is based on the historical facts and a collective memory, which became an integral part of the Jewish national identity. I'll give you an alternative example to think about. The majority of the people who identify themselves as Palestinians where born and bred outside of Palestine. Many of them a citizens of USA, Canada, France, Mexico, Germany, Jordan, etc. Some of them are Muslim, others are Christians, atheists, and I bet you can find Buddhists as well. Yet, they call themselves Palestinians and insist on their right of return to their lost homeland Palestine. Are they justified in their claim? Is there an expiration date to their plight? I say that as long that they preserve their unique national identity of Palestinians and keep the link to their historical homeland as an integral part of this identity, their plight will not expire. The same goes for the Jews. If you disagree, please suggest objective criteria for the expiration date.Braiman 18:30, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Shite. The early Zionist movement's shift to insistence upon Palestine as the rightful site of a new Jewish state, some two thousand years after the fact of the first, can only be explained in terms of a religious imperative, explicit or otherwise. --Robledo 17:17, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- I see no contradiction or "tension" as you put it. I'd like to refer you to the Israeli declaration of independence. In its first part it describes the reasons and justifications for establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine from the Zionist point of view. Note that there is no mention of "divine promise" or any other religious argumentation. Note also that Zionism has been conceived and has remained in the mainstream as a completely secular national liberation movement. Religious Zionism has always been a minority branch (they have gained prominence recently, but it's a separate story).
- I think it's up to individuals how they choose to self-identify. I was just ripping it a little on the tension between B's self-description on his user page and his rather shrill statements here and elsewhere. Maintaining character is hard work, though, so he shouldn't feel too bad. --Robledo 15:36, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Interesting point Robledo. When does a person of Jewish descent start to regard themself as something other than a Jew if they no longer subscribe to the Jewish faith? It would seem to me that despite racial stereotyping there has been a dilution of the gene pool since the diaspora. We British are often considered a mongrel race with Gaelic, Roman, Viking, Angle, Saxon, Jute, Danish and Norman influences, not to mention recent intermingling with Poles, Chinese, Indians and Africans. I identify myself solely by the country of my birth despite a fair compexion and very big nose.
- lol :) And how, exactly, does an "atheist, humanist Jew" make the leap to agreeing with statements such as Palestine (aka the Land of Israel) was the only rightful place for the Jewish state. Good luck, son. --Robledo 14:45, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Er, I shouldn't need to point out that your ideas are a blueprint for mass population upheaval. If any culture is viewed as having some rightful claim on their "ancestral homeland" then where does it end? I'm from Welsh stock myself, and the Welsh have their own preserved culture and language from way back, enough to meet your criteria anyway. Britain for the Celts! Normans and Saxons out! In reality, possession is rather more than 9 points of the law where border disputes are involved. Israel exists and isn't going anywhere, no matter how much of a bad idea it was in the first place. You can't help but think that Israelis could be rather more magnanimous in victory though, and extend at least some sort of olive branch towards the Palestinians. --Jeēv☭sYour signature uses all my CPU time... 19:10, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Aye, this sounds a bit too much like the line of thought that kept Germany and France fighting over Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen for about 1100 years. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 19:20, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- I'm not talking about border disputes or sizes of "ancestral homelands", which might be different from the sizes of current homelands. I'm talking about people who lost their homeland in its entirety, who have never had any other national homeland, and who kept a link to their lost one and only homeland as one of the defining elements of their national identity. In any other place they were a minority, usually a persecuted one. This situation is rather unique. If the Jews were to regain their independence, there was no other place on Earth more appropriate than the area in their National Homeland. I definitely disagree that re-establishment of the Jewish independence in their national homeland was a bad idea. IMO, it was one of the justest moments in the world history. Refusal to accept it was the one that led to a disaster.
And about the olive branch... I'm not sure how well you are informed about this conflict, but the olive branch has been extended. More than once. There has been a little thingy called "the Peace Process" going on here for about 15 years now. Some people even got Nobel Prizes for extending olive branches. Did not help much. The war is going on and people are still dyingBraiman 08:28, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
- I'm not talking about border disputes or sizes of "ancestral homelands", which might be different from the sizes of current homelands. I'm talking about people who lost their homeland in its entirety, who have never had any other national homeland, and who kept a link to their lost one and only homeland as one of the defining elements of their national identity. In any other place they were a minority, usually a persecuted one. This situation is rather unique. If the Jews were to regain their independence, there was no other place on Earth more appropriate than the area in their National Homeland. I definitely disagree that re-establishment of the Jewish independence in their national homeland was a bad idea. IMO, it was one of the justest moments in the world history. Refusal to accept it was the one that led to a disaster.
- Aye, this sounds a bit too much like the line of thought that kept Germany and France fighting over Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen for about 1100 years. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 19:20, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Er, I shouldn't need to point out that your ideas are a blueprint for mass population upheaval. If any culture is viewed as having some rightful claim on their "ancestral homeland" then where does it end? I'm from Welsh stock myself, and the Welsh have their own preserved culture and language from way back, enough to meet your criteria anyway. Britain for the Celts! Normans and Saxons out! In reality, possession is rather more than 9 points of the law where border disputes are involved. Israel exists and isn't going anywhere, no matter how much of a bad idea it was in the first place. You can't help but think that Israelis could be rather more magnanimous in victory though, and extend at least some sort of olive branch towards the Palestinians. --Jeēv☭sYour signature uses all my CPU time... 19:10, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
- Am I imagining it or was there once talk of a Jewish state somewhere like the Thousand Islands or something? Or is this something I came up with when I was drunk? I have a very vague recollection. I'll see if I can look it up. DickTurpis 14:34, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Khazars
The Khazar royalty and nobility were definitely Jewish (by conversion), and the article seems to imply that the Khazar state was solely Turkish. I think I'm going to elaborate on the theory, possibly create an article- assuming I can muster the focus.--"Shut up, Brx." 17:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)