Talk:Anti-vaccination movement/Archive1
A few more "concerns"
- Diabetes [1]
- Aluminum causes Alzheimer's [2]
- Misc concerns, heavy metals, drug companies are evil [3]
- Maybe i'll save some of these for another article?--PalMD-yada yada 14:58, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- My memory's a bit fuzzy (ha!), but wasn't there serious study at one point on aluminium and Alzheimer's? If that's the case, it's more a case of the public perception being outdated than anything. Makes me wonder if the current research into Omega-3's impact on dementia doesn't pan out in the end, we'll be talking about it in the same way in a decade's time. --Kels 15:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Such is the way of medicine. We were sure vitamin E was good, but it actually increases mortality once we studied it. That is why it is unwise to draw conclusions without data. Perhaps aluminum was found in Alzheimers plaques, but that says nothing about exogenous alum. intake. Medicine is full of examples of decisions being made because they "made sense" but later turned out to be wrong when subjected to the harsh scrutiny of statistics.--PalMD-yada yada 15:26, 22 June 2007 (CDT) 15:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- True, but it was a valid line of inquiry, even if it panned out. Calling it a "concern" seems a bit misplaced, since it seems more a case of the public awareness catching up with the research more than something groundless. --Kels 16:07, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Such is the way of medicine. We were sure vitamin E was good, but it actually increases mortality once we studied it. That is why it is unwise to draw conclusions without data. Perhaps aluminum was found in Alzheimers plaques, but that says nothing about exogenous alum. intake. Medicine is full of examples of decisions being made because they "made sense" but later turned out to be wrong when subjected to the harsh scrutiny of statistics.--PalMD-yada yada 15:26, 22 June 2007 (CDT) 15:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- My memory's a bit fuzzy (ha!), but wasn't there serious study at one point on aluminium and Alzheimer's? If that's the case, it's more a case of the public perception being outdated than anything. Makes me wonder if the current research into Omega-3's impact on dementia doesn't pan out in the end, we'll be talking about it in the same way in a decade's time. --Kels 15:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Shaping up well
This is shaping up well, I think we should work in the autism omnibus trial thats happening, do you want me to work on that? Tmtoulouse 14:19, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- That'd be great, thanks.--PalMD-yada yada 14:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Cool, my ability to work on it today will be sporadic but I will get it done. Tmtoulouse 14:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- I would actually love help from someone on the thimerosal section, perhaps one of our chemists?--PalMD-yada yada 14:32, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
- Cool, my ability to work on it today will be sporadic but I will get it done. Tmtoulouse 14:23, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
I'm really not in agreement. This article lacks most of the appropriate citations it should present, has a huge POV bias, and just generally is written in an opinionated tone unworthy of the gravity of the subject. I specifically nixed a couple lines in the "conclusions" section that were pure opinion and thus unsupportable, and added "citation needed" tags where appropriate. 24.29.11.58 (talk) 23:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)Ubiquitousnewt
- Im debating finding a place for abandoned unsafe vaccines, like rotavirus, and for HPV vaccine controversy.--PalMD-yada yada 12:38, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
- The CDC is quite frank about side effects of these (small pox photos are scary). You won't find such photos for required vaccines, though, because the CDC's purpose is to control disease (read: propagandize), not provide the pros and real cons of vaccines, which would freighten some. Heart♥Gold tx 22:44, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Getting rid of polio and smallpox seems like pretty big 'pro's to me. What have you got for 'con's? --Gulik 20:14, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
- You won't find a lot of those other photos because they don't exist. Smallpox has well-recognized risks which are proven. The other vaccines do not. No great pics to show off.--PalMD-yada yada 21:43, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
- The photos I was referring to were photos of adverse reactions due to the smallpox vaccine (read: cowpox infection). The CDC is forthright on adverse reactions when they are not tasked with propaganizing for the vaccine. You won't find many photos at CDC on adverse reactions due to other vaccines, but if you want, I can send you one of my neice's reaction to measles vaccine. I'll even arrange to give permission to the CDC to display the photo to educate taxpaying citizens about the risks of measles vaccines, so that members of the "herd" can make informed decisions. But the CDC is not about educating, they are about propagandizing to further their reason for existence: Control disease at a population level, loosers of the vacination lottery be damned. (Well, there is an "insurance program" to pay money to the loosers, but they are still loosers.)
- Arguably, the rate of Polio outbreaks went down as much due to education and chlorinated pools as to the vaccine, or so I have heard it argued convincingly, from my recollection.
- The last 5 cases of Polio in my state occurred not long ago, and based on the information I have from the health department (very reliable source), it was due to a child being immunized in another country with live vaccine, having a suppressed immune system, and spreading it to four other unvaccinated Mennonites in my state after the child traveled here.
- Which should be another article...the use of live vaccine in Africa by Bill Gates' foundation as a part of a (kinder, gentler, and economical philanthropic) strategy to immunize more children...
- It backfires, because every time a child in some village gets polio after getting vaccinated, the mother stands outside the missionary (secular humanism) polio clinic warning other parents about the vaccine. Whether or not the child got polio from the live vaccine is beside the point; it is reasonable for an uneducated African mother to believe a fellow African mother caring for a polio victim over some white dudes and dudettes on a mission. You would do the same if you were in that position (uneducated, poor, neighbor's child suffering in front of your own eyes).
- Try as they might, the white missionaries for secular humanism just can't make headway with "Who are you going to believe, your lieing eyes or my scientific studies" arguments.
- The backfire: Fewer children are getting vaccinated. It would have been better to buy the safer vaccine. And more economical, in the end. Heart♥Gold tx 22:04, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
- Your niece's case, while important to her and her family, is not all that relevant as a single case report. Your "recollection" that chlorinating pools made a bigger difference than vaccines with polio is also not particularly relevant.--PalMD-yada yada 08:06, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Sources
[edit] Mennonite polio
Rather than the state department of health, it turns out the mennonite story was picked up by the New York Times. Should be sufficient to confirm to many RWs that it actually occured (either the New York Times published prematurely, or they don't have all of the facts that I have, or the Department of Health's understanding has become less firm since the last time I spoke with the epidemiologist familar with the case). 5 Cases of Polio in Amish Group Raise New Fears. I especially like the non-hysterical quote in this story by the "Amish" man, explaining his decision to get some vaccinations:
“”We'll get vaccinated if we feel it's necessary," he said. "But our definition of necessary may be very different from yours.
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- Amish definitions of lots of things are different...very different. Also, polio enters the sewerage and potentially water supplies, so lack of vaccination in anyone puts everyone at risk. As shown in the Cincinatti study, sometimes a high level of disease exposure can overwhelm normally-effective vaccines. I see what you mean about hysteria, and obviously not all opposition is hysterical, but the general feeling against vaccines is hysteria in the sense of being irrational (even if well-reasoned).162.82.215.199 15:28, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I did not recall any studies questiong the effectivness of the Polio vaccine (the Cincinatti study dealt with a different vaccine). But in general, some vaccines are less effective than others. Is polio not effective? (The context of this for others is that vaccines specifically or medicinces in general should be safe and effective, "safe" meaning in the case of vaccines causing more good than harm I think.) Heart♥Gold tx 15:51, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I suppose I've lost track of your point. The entire NYT article basically pointed out how important it is to keep up with vaccination rates, even after a disease is believed to have been eradicated. Maybe you could clarify your point for me.--PalMD-yada yada 16:29, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- "The last 5 cases of Polio in my state occurred not long ago, and based on the information I have from the health department (very reliable source), it was due to a child being immunized in another country with live vaccine, having a suppressed immune system, and spreading it to four other unvaccinated Mennonites in my state after the child traveled here."-->1. If the child had not been vaccinated, 0 children instead of 5 would have gotten Polio. 2. Live vaccine has consequences, and should be scraped. Heart♥Gold tx 17:41, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- Live vaccine has good and bad consequences, especially in this country, where so many people are immunosuppressed from chemo therapy etc, and OPV is not used in the US anymore. --PalMD-yada yada 17:53, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I suppose I've lost track of your point. The entire NYT article basically pointed out how important it is to keep up with vaccination rates, even after a disease is believed to have been eradicated. Maybe you could clarify your point for me.--PalMD-yada yada 16:29, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I did not recall any studies questiong the effectivness of the Polio vaccine (the Cincinatti study dealt with a different vaccine). But in general, some vaccines are less effective than others. Is polio not effective? (The context of this for others is that vaccines specifically or medicinces in general should be safe and effective, "safe" meaning in the case of vaccines causing more good than harm I think.) Heart♥Gold tx 15:51, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
First, I would note that the cases were among Amish, not Mennonites. Secondly, note in the article the fact that Amish Church elders did not discourage vaccination. There's a lot of mis-information out there to the effect that Amish discourage vaccination, that's not true. Nor is it true at all that Mennonites discourage vaccination. There have been sporadic cases of many diseases for which vaccinations are available due to a particular person's decision not to get vaccinated, or also of vaccine failure. — Unsigned, by: 75.62.72.173 / talk / contribs
- As I understand it, the Amish do not speak with one voice, but self-govern at a very local level. I'm not sure how this applies to the Amish stance on vaccination, though. human
00:37, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Vaccination rates for polio are down
This post-gazette story confirms the outcome, just not the method I argued. It also has another interesting "factoid" that tends to mitigate accusations of "hysteria."
“”Even before the latest military invasions, suspicion was high because of what happened after the U.S. drug manufacturer Pfizer treated 100 children in Kano for free in 1996 with the experimental antibiotic trovafloxicin, or Trovan, during an outbreak of bacterial meningitis. According to a lawsuit still pending in U.S. District Court in New York, up to 11 children died and others experienced disabilities. The suit claimed the company never received proper consent to test the drug. Pfizer, in a statement, denies any wrongdoing, noting that the disease kills four out of every 10 people infected, and that the trial, in fact, saved lives.
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- I have no idea what this quote is supposed to show. I did have experience with the whole Trovan thing, but it doesn't relate to vaccination.162.82.215.199 15:29, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] NPR Story on parental fears
I think this is the story I was basing some of my arguments on, though it is about Indonisia and Africa. Hope this helps in the cite department. (Also, PalMD, I hope my hostility toward your sentiment doesn't get confused with hostility toward you personally...Sometimes I feel the need to defend the underdog, especially when I think they are being characterized unfairly). Heart♥Gold tx 09:47, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- By the way, I think PalMD can confirm from the description of "drops" and other clues, the vaccine in question is likely if not definitately live vaccine. He can probably also confirm that live vaccine, whild effective, is less safe than the more expensive vaccines we ususally use in the United States. Heart♥Gold tx 09:57, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- You are correct, the "drops" are OPV (oral polio vaccine). They are cheaper, easier to administer and distribute, and can provide passive immunization by being passed from a vaccinated person into the sewerage and water supply. In areas with endemic polio, this can help foster immunity. The story shows how lack of proper public health education can help foster disease.162.82.215.199 15:32, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- And the "underdogs" are those denied vaccines because of superstition, hysteria, lack of education, government malfeasance, etc. 162.82.215.199 15:33, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Sleep apnea
I have seen studies that indicate what the image to the right indicate, namely, that sleep apnea is correlated to DPaT vaccination. Now, I do understand that the rate of SIDS does seem to be independant of DPaT, but failing to mention the initial (and maybe confirmed) findings that DPaT does seem to have an affect regarding sleep apnea will not convince anybody capable of read an article with big words in it. Heart♥Gold tx 20:56, 27 June 2007 (CDT)- That graph is, first, of one child. now, I hate to sound like a vaccine apologist, but some changes are to be expected after the introduction of a vaccine into the body. After all, the immune system is being triggered, and is developing defenses (antibodies) against whatever the vaccine is intended to protect against. humanbe in 21:06, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Sorry, I have to add to the chorus. A bar graph on the sleeping habits of a single child, measured god-knows-how, might as well not exist, it is such weak evidence.--PalMD-yada yada 21:08, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I will look for a study. I have it in my notes somewhere...have to search through a lot of files. Regarding criticism of this graph--that is why it is in the talk page and not the article. Also, I think the official argument is that while there may be a relationship to apnea and some vaccines, there is no such relationship for vaccines and SIDS (and there are some good studies on this second point, according to my recollection--if I remember correctly, all of Japan stopped the DPT or DPaT vaccine, and the SIDS rate was not affected. Regarding apnea, devices exist to measure it, I think they have even been approved by the FDA.Heart♥Gold tx 22:34, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Sorry, I have to add to the chorus. A bar graph on the sleeping habits of a single child, measured god-knows-how, might as well not exist, it is such weak evidence.--PalMD-yada yada 21:08, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Copied from user talk:HeartOfGold#Vaccine hysteria
In this article, you refer to a study that showed a connect between the DPT vaccination and sleep apnea in infants. It's now got a {{fact}} tag on it that I'd like to get rid of. Was there a particular study that you had in mind. I can't seem to find one, though I admit I haven't been too dogged about it. Help? -Smyth 14:19, 27 September 2007 (EDT)
- I believe HOG left an image on the site somewhere showing a graph of one child's apnea events over a few weeks, where they go up a lot after vaccination. Hopefully he mentions the source. It might very well be in Vh talk or an archive. humanbe in 14:46, 27 September 2007 (EDT)
- You're right, I found it in Vh talk. He mentions looking for a study after the criticism (that he understood) about the evidence being anecdotal, considering it's of, as you say, one child. I'm wondering if it maybe should be removed pending a reference? I don't really have any vested interest except for cleaning up the unreferenced articles list. -Smyth 15:01, 27 September 2007 (EDT)
I just posted some information that has been released over the last couple of years relating SIDS with families that have a history of genetic psycologicaly depressive traits.--TimS 15:06, 27 September 2007 (EDT)
- Very interesting. It doesn't really address the apnea issue though, right? Or am I missunderstanding something? -Smyth 15:14, 27 September 2007 (EDT)
[edit] neologism?
"If anti-vaccine ideas are to impact macro vaccination policy"
What is "macro vaccination" and where did the phrase come from? humanbe in 20:57, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- The point is, policy is done by analyzing populations. The wording may be ackward, I just wanted to draw attention to the fact the policy for vaccination is a lot like deciding whether or not to drop a nuclear bomb: well, if we don't, X million will die, if we do, only Y hundred thousand will die. Heart♥Gold tx 21:01, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Actually, samples are studied, and then conclusions are extrapolated to populations. Individuals really can't be studied, although and RCT with N=1 would be ideal, it is impossible.--PalMD-yada yada 21:09, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Since it is a made up phrase I am going to remove the word "macro". humanbe in 21:18, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- nevermind, HG beat me to it. Oh, and with vaccination, the "gains" are better than the 10:1 in the comment above. humanbe in 21:22, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I don't want to open up the debate, but I do not dispute that vaccination programs make sense at a macro level. And since I am taking advantage of the "herd" being vaccinated, I am not really desiring to propagandize for my personal beliefs. However, I will critique this article if you want it to be more effective at convincing others that vaccines are perfectly safe. Heart♥Gold tx 22:38, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- nevermind, HG beat me to it. Oh, and with vaccination, the "gains" are better than the 10:1 in the comment above. humanbe in 21:22, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Since it is a made up phrase I am going to remove the word "macro". humanbe in 21:18, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I appreciated it, but let's keep it to the talk page and try to develop stuff to move over.--PalMD-yada yada 22:39, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Actually, samples are studied, and then conclusions are extrapolated to populations. Individuals really can't be studied, although and RCT with N=1 would be ideal, it is impossible.--PalMD-yada yada 21:09, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Some interesting studies to look for
Just found some notes...
- D. C. Christie, et al., "The 1993 Epidemic of Pertussis in Cincinnati: Resurgence of Disease in a Highly Immunized Population of Children," New England Journal of Medicine (July 7, 1994), pp. 16-20.
- Analysis of the study shows ineffective vaccine was probably not the largest part of the story. Even small reductions in herd immunity can contribute to outbreak. Letter was published Nov 24, 1994, NEJM.--PalMD-yada yada 22:52, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- I don't suppose they offer free trial memberships at the NEJM? Heart♥Gold tx 22:59, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- M. E. Pichichero, et al., "Diphtheria-Pertussis-Tetanus Vaccine: Reactogenicity of Commercial Products," Pediatrics (Feb. 1979), pp. 256-260.
- Dr. Viera Scheibner and Leif Karlsson, "Association Between Non-Specific Stress Syndrome, DPT Injections, and Cot Death," (2nd Immunization Conference, Canberra, Australia, May 27-29, 1991).
- W. C. Torch, "Diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus (DPT) immunization: A potential cause of the sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS)," (Amer. Academy of Neurology, 34th Annual Meeting, Apr 25 - May 1, 1982), Neurology 32(4), pt. 2.
- In 1993, during a pertussis outbreak, 82 percent of children stricken with the disease had received regular doses of the vaccine.
- Susceptibility to pertussis 12 years after full vaccination may be as high as 95 percent.
- One study has shown a strong correlation between the DPT vaccination and a dramatic increase in apnea and hypopnea episodes.
- Another study noted a bimodal increase in the occurrence of SIDS at two and four months of age, when the DPT shots are usually administered.
- Raising eyebrows: While correlation does not in itself establish causation, it neither disestablishes causation.
- That's all for now. Gotta go camp with the children in the yard. Heart♥Gold tx 22:50, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- Don't forget to use DEET.--PalMD-yada yada 22:53, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- We have a tent:) Young children, just camping in the yard...after watching a recording of America's funniest videos. Heart♥Gold tx 22:54, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- If you have an email, ill try to send you the text.--PalMD-yada yada 22:59, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
- My email is on my account page, or if you want to send non asci, you can try EHeartOfGold@yahoo.com Heart♥Gold tx 19:50, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Sorry
But this is the whole problem with the anti-vaccine movement. "They" do not cite sources, they do rely on anecdotal info, and they do tend to say "even if science proves it, no one will get it" (education anyone???). Any rational defense of anti-vaccine ideas must include facts, not opinions. I honestly cannot debate anyone who just gives opinions and case studies of N=1.--PalMD-yada yada 08:29, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- PalMD a few point that hopefully will clear things up. If you don't want to debate, that is fine. Really, I am offering what I see as large hurdles you need to overcome to write a convincing article:
- Regarding the African mothers
- It is *rational* for African mothers in the situation I describe to be highly skeptical to the point of refusal. I think that if you try to empathetically put yourself in their shoes, you will admit that you can see how such situations arise. It is not hysteria. I do not say that the mothers are right, or that they have science on their side, but given that frame of reference, their beahavior is highly rational, and not fairly called hysteria. It is a real problem that needs to be dealt with. (BTW, if you haven't heard of such things, I will try to find the NPR program I heard it discussed).
- Regarding the polio case:
- If you doubt that this Mennonites case occurred, I can give you a contact at the department of health. If you do not dispute that it occurred, but only its relevance, we don't have to waste time. I did not draw the rational conclusion from the Mennonite perspective, but to them it must seem to be confirmation (based on their experience) that Polio vaccines are bad.
- Regarding anecdotal information:
- The adverse reaction of my niece is anecdotal. However, science is not about filtering such information. In the case of the taxpayer funded CDC, the CDC *appears* to not be forthright in providing a complete education on vaccines that are "required." This cdc (smallpox adverse reactions cdc) image search on google shows a link to the CDC within the first 3 hits. However, this (measles adverse reactions cdc) image search on google does not turn up anything from the CDC on the first three *pages*.
- The reason I am debating is because this article is portraying anti-vaccination sentiment as "hysteria." It is not pure baseless hysteria. At worst, it is rational hysteria and at best just rational.
- What you call annecdotal I contend can be referred to as a counter example (something that is sometimes useful in the realm of falsifiability). Regarding citing sources, I provided what I thought were some very high quality sources. The other stuff is public knowledge and or obvious opinion, but let me know which items you want references for.
- Now, if you just don't want to expend energy debating whether or not the anti-vaccine movement is hysterical, how you decide to spend your time is up to you. But if you want to consider alternative perspectives, I am offering mine, on the talk page, per request (with some cites). Heart♥Gold tx 09:13, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Pardon me fer butting in but,
- I don't think you (plural) are so far apart.
- It looks as if you're both acknowledging the same things.
- I think the question comes down to:" Can vaccination programs be injurious to single persons but still be of benefit to society at-large?"
- This then begs the question: "How many 'isolated' (anecdotal) people have to suffer before we reassess each program?"
- I see Doc's position as "There always going to be some risk, but it's better for society that we all share that risk equally and take the vaccinations to ensure that all have a level of protection people in the past prayed to have."
- I see Heart's position as :"I see that there are protections for society but what about the people who face the burdens for losing that lottery that the vaccinations are proving to be?"
- If I am in error and this, in no way, is either of the views, simply move on and delete this if you so desire. ~~ CЯacke® 10:02, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- To this I would add that I contend that citizens in the developing world should have access to the best Polio vaccine available, instead of the less expensive live vaccine, or vaccination programs in those countries are not going to be as effective as one would hope (unless freedom of speech can be suprressed instead, something I do not advocate).) Heart♥Gold tx 10:16, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I agree with Rob, but one of the larger points is that there is little proven harm even to individuals. As cited in the article, statistics bear out that the risk to individuals, not just populations, is greater unvaccinated then vaccinated. You can either buy that data or not. If an individual is harmed, statistically speaking, they were at higher risk of being harmed by not being vaccinated.
- As to the developing world, there are tons of anecdotes, but the solution is education, not depriving people of vaccines. As an example, my pathology professor's friend raised money to buy measles vaccines, showed up in an African health minister's office with them, and said, "I hold the lives of a million children in my hands". The minister reportedly said, "Did you bring food to feed them, too?"75.62.26.189 10:17, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- BTW, the oral vaccine is very effective,and also allows for passive immunization, and less expensive oral administration, but as stated, it has problems.75.62.26.189 10:18, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- Effective is one thing, safe and effective is another, and safe is a third. Some nutrional suppliments are safe but not effective...and so on...anyway, what you call "passive immunization" would be called "terroristic biological attack" if committed by Arabs...not saying a conviction would result, but propaganda would. Heart♥Gold tx 17:43, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It is no more a terrorist attack than fluoridating water...or does that sap our precious bodily fluids? (movie ref).--PalMD-yada yada 17:54, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It's an unfair trade practice aimed at destroying the livelihood of dentists. What are you, some kind of Commie? --jtltalk 18:26, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- Older doctors and dentists still attempt to prescribe flouride from time to time (to my children because we bought bottled spring water for some years), but dentists fresh out of dental school are being educated that ingesting flouride pills might prevent cavities in your stomach, but really doesn't help teeth.
- At least according to my friend's wife who recently graudated from dental school, and our new pediatric dentist. Can you cite the study, PalMD, that showed flouride pills are a safe and effective means of preventing cavities? As far as I know, there are none. Yet MDs are still prescribing flouride pills as if it actually does something. (I have challanged two MDs, one dentist, and one pharmacist to cite such a study in real life. Not one of them returned my call, even though they initially said it would not be a problem.)
- The comment about sapping our precious bodily fluids is a good example of the caricature used to promote pseudoscience (e.g., that flouride pills should be prescribed for children who do not drink flouradated water. As for flouridated water, I have read conflicting studies, but yet we continue to do it without conclusive proof.).
- Regarding flouridated water, there are rational reasons to be skeptical. First, municipalities, usually required by state governments, most often buy the least expensive flouride compound available, said compound being the recycled industrial waste product from the manufacture of Aluminum and fertilizers.
- And propagandizers for flouridated water cite annecdotal evidence to support their case.
- Psuedoscience if you ask me. Heart♥Gold tx 21:13, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It's an unfair trade practice aimed at destroying the livelihood of dentists. What are you, some kind of Commie? --jtltalk 18:26, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It is no more a terrorist attack than fluoridating water...or does that sap our precious bodily fluids? (movie ref).--PalMD-yada yada 17:54, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- Effective is one thing, safe and effective is another, and safe is a third. Some nutrional suppliments are safe but not effective...and so on...anyway, what you call "passive immunization" would be called "terroristic biological attack" if committed by Arabs...not saying a conviction would result, but propaganda would. Heart♥Gold tx 17:43, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I have never heard of fluoride pills...ever. Topical fluoride treatments are usually given at dentist offices. And, truthfully, anyone who still doubts fluoridated water goes into my (ad hominem) book as a crank. Sorry.--PalMD-yada yada 21:16, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- Call a pharmacist, or talk to an old pediatrician (who probably still prescribes them to patients who have private wells).
- Calling me a crank sounds like more pseudoscience. Show me the science.
- And, even if flouridating water worked, so what. Forced medication of a population via the municiple water supply doesn't sound exactly wholesome. What's next, studies show that potassium nitrate reduce libido, rape, and birth rates. The world is over populated. So lets add potassium nitrate to the water supply.
- Crank. Ad hominem--not science. Heart♥Gold tx 21:26, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It's called "public health" (sewers, vaccines, etc) and it has saved more lives then any doctors. Deal with it or move out to Idaho with the wackos. I'm tired.--PalMD-yada yada 21:27, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- I don't think anybody drinks from the sewers, vaccines are not really required (contentions of propagandists notwithstanding), and I don't know what you mean by etc. I did not bring up flouride, you did, and you did it without even knowing that MDs still prescribe flouride pills to prevent tooth decay (without any studies to show that it is a safe and effective preventative measure). The man of science is resorting to name calling, refusing to cite scientific studies...I understand it is frustrating for somebody like you to deal with somebody like me (who holds a different world view), but really, if science is on your side on flouride, let me know. If you don't have the time or interest, simply say you disbelieve most of my assertions, regret bringing up flouride in the first place, and don't have the time or inclination to carry on a discussion on flouride. I can respect that. But understand, you're the one who is using ad hominems (precious bodily fluids, crank, move to idaho with the wackos...). I am simply pointing out how "men of science" are widely (especially older doctors) still prescribing pills to children while declining to cite studies to show that flouride pills are a safe and effective means of preventing tooth decay. Heart♥Gold tx 21:35, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It's called "public health" (sewers, vaccines, etc) and it has saved more lives then any doctors. Deal with it or move out to Idaho with the wackos. I'm tired.--PalMD-yada yada 21:27, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- Im just saying, im a very well-trained physician, and ive never even heard of giving fluoride pills...it's not mainstream medicine. And yes, people do drink from sewers, or the effectively did before people were required, often against their will, to start using sewerage and septic systems and stop drawing water from wells and rivers contaminated with sewer water. Famous London typhoid history, the folks there hated it. The Chicago river actually had its flow reversed to prevent disease. So you see, I feel like I am debating with a well-meaning, intelligent person who really has no idea what he's talking about. That's why i feel it's futile.--PalMD-yada yada 21:40, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
- It is not anymore (at least it is not universially recommended). But, as I have said, I have had two MDs (pediatricians) and one dentist give me perscriptions for fluoride pills (for my children, actually). I assure you it does occur. And there is controversy over how it works, with the recommendation now being that children be instructed to chew the tablets (because evidence suggests that is where the benefit is, in a topical application). BTW, I buy fluoridated toothpaste for my children, and instruct them not to swallow it, and to rinse well after brushing. I have of course refused to fill the three prescriptions, but I did talk to the pharmacist on the third--as I said, none of the MDs, dentist, and pharmacist would come back to me after they assured me that the drug was approved by the FDA as a safe and effective treatmen, and would be able to provide data on the submitted study (this was the specific question I asked...vis-a-vis the FDA requirements that a drug have a study that it is safe and effective). As far as I know, fluoride pills were grandfathered in, and the FDA never required a study to show that they were safe and effective. Other studies have shown a benefit, but it appears that it is topical (which, it sounds like, you agree). If you do agree, why fluoridate the water? If you don't agree or disagree, just have doubts, fine. But it is rational to think that fluoride in toothpaste (not intended to be swallowed) and flouride in topical dentist office treatments (again, not intended to be swallowed) probably works, but it is equally rational to be highly skeptical about *ingesting* flouride pills, especially since one recent Harvard study has detected a link (requiring further study) between flouride and one form of bone cancer. Crank, not, rational and skeptical, yes. Heart♥Gold tx 22:00, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Unseasonal rise in measles
There's been an unusual rise in measles in the UK following a triple vaccine scare over the past few years. Apparently there's usually a decrease in the summer school holidays but not this year. Susan Jayne Garlicktalk 00:33, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Hmm, interesting. Do we have a link? News or Science journalism, either would be a good start. humanbe in 01:23, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
bbc story if you knew the aggro it taketh me to find things like this on this bloody pda.Susan Jayne Garlicktalk 01:38, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] reflist | 2
Didn't seem to change anything? Were "we" shooting for the small font reflist? Or something else? Bohdan7 01:22, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- It works for me, ref list 2 puts references in 2 columns instead of just 1. Bohdan43 01:26, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
Dunno hoo did wot but cud thei undone it - reflist begins @ #33 on mine now - help. Susan Jayne Garlicktalk 01:44, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Mercury - autism disproven
Another nail. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080107/sc_nm/autism_vaccinations_dc_1 Someone with more medical knowledge or who actually gets the journals in question could probably say more on the subject. --Shagie 18:15, 7 January 2008 (EST)
- Added to refs.--PalMD-Mmmm...Brains! 19:05, 7 January 2008 (EST)
Yet another nail. http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN30505454 says "The mercury in a vaccine preservative is pumped out of a baby's body too quickly for it to do any damage, researchers reported on Wednesday in a study they say should further absolve shots of causing autism." Again, if someone with more medical knowledge... --Shagie 14:53, 31 January 2008 (EST)
They claim a shorter *blood* half-life of ethylmercury than methylmercury, which no one disputes. They also claim that it is rapidly excreted from the body through feces, which their data does not support. Yes it is rapidly eliminated from blood compared to methylmercury, but it isn't rapidly eliminated from the body! By using Pinchichero's own measurements for ethylmercury excretion, 23-141 nanograms of mercury per gram of stool (dry weight), to eliminate the average ethylmercury dose for infants by 6-months in the 1990s (187.5 mcg) for infants in 50th percentile for weight progression (3.5-8kg) with averaged stool weights of 6-18 grams (dry weight) per day is shown below.
| Stool Hg concentration (ng/g) | Daily Hg excretion (mcg/day) | Days to excrete 187.5 mcg | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Minimum | 23 | 0.14-0.41 | 457-1,339 |
| Maximum | 140 | 0.84-2.52 | 74-223 |
Even the best case of 74 days is still a rather long time. The study indicates that blood half-life is comparatively low, but elimination from the body is not fast at all. Hence the logical conclusion is that deposition in tissue is highly likely.
If you want more evidence linking mercury and autism you can easily look beyond vaccines. One study shows a strong correlation between mercury pollution (from power plants, etc.) and autism rates. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16338635. So yeah, hardly a nail in the coffin, if anything corroborating evidence. Information (talk) 05:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Also should mention that there are studies showing that autistic children have significantly lower rates of mercury excretion than neurotypical individuals http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12933322 - their inability to excrete mercury would make them far more susceptible to mercury-induced neurotoxicity, and their baby teeth indicate a higher deposition of mercury to tissue during development http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17497416. Here's a review showing the parallels between mercury intoxication and ASD http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810216
For people who call themselves rational, you guys obviously don't do much investigating of your own, otherwise you'd already be aware of this information. Information (talk) 06:43, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
[edit] ........
Your blog is interesting!
Keep up the good work! — Unsigned, by: bunchanumbers / talk / contribs
[edit] Measles outbreak among home schoolers
[4] Czolgolz 23:20, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Alleged Baxter flu vaccine contamination
Not sure if anyone's watching this talk page, but I was curious if there's anything to this story:
http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html
I saw it under the following tagline: "Baxter International, the same company that is rapidly working on a vaccination for the swine flu, has admitted to accidentally shipping the live avian flu virus in vaccine packaging to 18 different countries. "
As with just about every medical scare, Google searches turn up thousands of "medical news" hits, but zilch from major news sources. Anyone know anything about this one?
Junggai 11:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think it's as big an issue or as dangerous as the headlines may suggest so it's probably not "major" news.
d hominem 14:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- It certainly seems to fall under "vaccine hysteria" though. Not sure if it's worth adding as an example, but if someone wants to try... ħuman
21:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- The problem, and the reason I posted it, is because I was unable to find any information from a source I recognized that either confirmed or debunked the wild assertions of the linked article. I found dozens of articles from shady-looking "medical sites" and from blogs that repeat the same story. Usually an accusation this widespread and serious has some diligent fact-checkers on it. And since the incident allegedly happened a couple of years ago, I would think that it should have been examined already. Junggai 21:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- Good point. If it was a "real" occurrence that mattered at all, it would have at least been in some major "papers of record", and they're all on-line these days. Who knows, it might be a complete fabrication or twisting - of course, in that case, we'd still have a reason to write about it. If we could find any "real" facts... ħuman
23:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- Good point. If it was a "real" occurrence that mattered at all, it would have at least been in some major "papers of record", and they're all on-line these days. Who knows, it might be a complete fabrication or twisting - of course, in that case, we'd still have a reason to write about it. If we could find any "real" facts... ħuman
- The problem, and the reason I posted it, is because I was unable to find any information from a source I recognized that either confirmed or debunked the wild assertions of the linked article. I found dozens of articles from shady-looking "medical sites" and from blogs that repeat the same story. Usually an accusation this widespread and serious has some diligent fact-checkers on it. And since the incident allegedly happened a couple of years ago, I would think that it should have been examined already. Junggai 21:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- It certainly seems to fall under "vaccine hysteria" though. Not sure if it's worth adding as an example, but if someone wants to try... ħuman
[edit] Conspiracy theories?
There seems to be a recent trend towards the paranoid fringe including vaccination in to their new world order conspiracy theories, mostly around reducing the population. I'm sure we ought to have something about that, but I'm not sure it really fits in to the theme of this article. Should this article be limited to real (if wrong) health concerns over vaccines, or can it be expanded to cover total lunatics too? --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 12:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd put the conspiracies in a entirely separate article. The hysteria tends to be either A) overreaction to real events or B) misunderstanding the idea of vaccines. Conspiracy theories are a different, but still relevant, animal, I think.
d hominem 12:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- (EC)How about a separate Vaccination conspiracy theories or something? I have read about how if you don't take your government mandate swine flu shot you will get set to FEMA camps, from a Canadian. - π 12:51, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- The flu (regular and H1N1) vaccine will have nanobots that take over your brain and bring about the swine zombie apocalypse.
d hominem 14:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- The flu (regular and H1N1) vaccine will have nanobots that take over your brain and bring about the swine zombie apocalypse.
- (EC)How about a separate Vaccination conspiracy theories or something? I have read about how if you don't take your government mandate swine flu shot you will get set to FEMA camps, from a Canadian. - π 12:51, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Cover story
As this is a well sourced, well illustrated, concise, relevant and important article, I'd like to nominate for cover status. It'll probably need a few passes for quality, but in general, I think it's nearly there.
d hominem 14:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree.RaoulDuke 14:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yup, it's definitely worth showcasing. --
Ask me about your mother 21:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Judging by the mild cleanup I just did to the lead, it could probably use a good proofreading. Not that I'm disagreeing with cover storying it, at all. ħuman
21:37, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- I had a quick sweep through the article, but it's late at night and I may have missed some bits. Thanks for mentioning that Human. I had a read earlier, but didn't notice those little quirks. --
Ask me about your mother 22:10, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that our very first link (is salon.com famous?) should be to an article which says the exact opposite of our article though.--BobNot Jim 22:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, although it's kind of difficult to avoid linking to something that doesn't say the opposite of what the article says. Perhaps we need to find a place to cover Salon's foundation of their story, which is based on Verstraeten's findings which were hyped beyond all sense of reality? The Autism omnibus trial could help. --
Ask me about your mother 22:25, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- I clarified it. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is famous, and a nutter anti-vaxer, sadly. ħuman
22:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- I clarified it. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is famous, and a nutter anti-vaxer, sadly. ħuman
- Yeah, although it's kind of difficult to avoid linking to something that doesn't say the opposite of what the article says. Perhaps we need to find a place to cover Salon's foundation of their story, which is based on Verstraeten's findings which were hyped beyond all sense of reality? The Autism omnibus trial could help. --
- I'm not sure that our very first link (is salon.com famous?) should be to an article which says the exact opposite of our article though.--BobNot Jim 22:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- I had a quick sweep through the article, but it's late at night and I may have missed some bits. Thanks for mentioning that Human. I had a read earlier, but didn't notice those little quirks. --
- Judging by the mild cleanup I just did to the lead, it could probably use a good proofreading. Not that I'm disagreeing with cover storying it, at all. ħuman
- Yup, it's definitely worth showcasing. --
Oh, also by the way, I think Nx came up with a nifty way to allow the image at the top to show up on the main page without mucking it up. Something involving the height tag, I think. We should check how he did it on another CS and do it here. ħuman
22:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think it was by doing a noinclude and includeonly trick inside the image tag itself (shortening or removing the caption for instance, and reducing its size as the "thumb" option may mess up when people have it too large). I'll dick about with the lead section to do it.
d hominem 16:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Meningitis C in UK
I just ran across an interesting vaccine statistic that someone might want to tuck into the article: in November 1999, the United Kingdom started vaccinating for Meningitis C - and was the first country to do so. The results? Pretty damn awesome. In 1998/99, there were 955 laboratory confirmed cases. In 2000-2001, that had dropped to 412 - more than halved in two years. The next year, it was almost halved again - down to 211. Then again down to 121, and again down to 64. In 2008-2009, it was 13. The death rate dropped off too: from 212 in 1998-99 to 61 in 2007-2008. I made a nice little graph here. –Tom Morris (talk) 01:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
[edit] The only hysteria here is typical liberal self aggrandisment
- Your arrogance is transparent.
- Your ridicule hides your inner shame.
- Accusing those wary of our children being controlled by liberal 'health experts' as evil is an evil act.
- I don't know how you sleep at night. Ha (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Merci pour votre contribution constructive.
d hominem 13:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just the bog-troll. Ignore it. Lily Inspirate me. 13:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Who the fuck are you calling a 'bog' troll, you racist bitch? Its ok to call the resident paddy a bogman now, is it? 86.40.105.186 (talk) 13:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- If there is some rational criticism of the content of the article I am sure that we would be happy to hear it.--BobSpring is sprung! 14:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Who the fuck are you calling a 'bog' troll, you racist bitch? Its ok to call the resident paddy a bogman now, is it? 86.40.105.186 (talk) 13:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just the bog-troll. Ignore it. Lily Inspirate me. 13:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Merci pour votre contribution constructive.
[edit] Agree with BON removal
I don't see the point of the referenced story that was removed, reverted and I removed again. tmtoulouse 04:57, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Taking a look at the edit itself, I agree with your removal. There is very little point to it. The Goonie 1 What's this button do? Uh oh.... 06:12, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Bon didn't remove. That was a long standing edit as far as I can tell. ħuman
09:11, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Well, it should be excised. I don't think "and some guy told me about it at lunch" and "some editor here was involved" count as references. And the bit itself is complete shite, just someone wingeing.
Acer Blue 09:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Back in the day it was probably funny. Maybe not so much now? ħuman
09:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- If there was an inside joke, I think it's safe to say the moment's passed.
Acer Blue 09:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. It failed to make me laugh the last sixteen times I tried, so I rolled my rollback back. I hope Nx doesn't mind. ħuman
09:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, but you didn't go to your talk page and give yourself an explanation of your rollrollbackback.
Acer Blue 09:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Damn, I am so screwed now. Trent will probably fire me. And Mssr. Soros' checks will never arrive. ħuman
09:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think anecdotes are fine, even for very good or high priority articles, but they need better context and explanation than that.
d hominem 11:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think anecdotes are fine, even for very good or high priority articles, but they need better context and explanation than that.
- Damn, I am so screwed now. Trent will probably fire me. And Mssr. Soros' checks will never arrive. ħuman
- Ah, but you didn't go to your talk page and give yourself an explanation of your rollrollbackback.
- Agreed. It failed to make me laugh the last sixteen times I tried, so I rolled my rollback back. I hope Nx doesn't mind. ħuman
- If there was an inside joke, I think it's safe to say the moment's passed.
- Back in the day it was probably funny. Maybe not so much now? ħuman
- Well, it should be excised. I don't think "and some guy told me about it at lunch" and "some editor here was involved" count as references. And the bit itself is complete shite, just someone wingeing.
- Bon didn't remove. That was a long standing edit as far as I can tell. ħuman
[edit] RS
Seems RS is semi anti-vaccines, to the point of potentially not vaccinating his daughter in some cases. Nil Einne (talk) 14:54, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm stuck, who is RS?
d hominem 15:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ro... Schla... (I'm trying to avoid saying the full name as although I'm disgusted by parents who put their children at risk because of their own stupidity I'm still unsure whether there's any real reason for us to mention his vaccine views, he isn't quite Andy) Nil Einne (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
