Talk:Anti-vaccination movement/Archive2

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[edit] New refs etc. 2011

There have been several books and articles published in 2011 that are worth mentioning. They include:

--Penglish (talk) 12:10, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Ideological objections

Shouldn't there be something in here about the (generally) right-wing ideological objections to vaccines? You know, resisting any attempt by the state to do anything that might resemble "socialised medecine", liberal nannying, or reducing one's personal freedom to chose not to vaccinate. And also the specific objections around the social impacts of vaccination, such as one cervical cancer one Schlafly objected to because it would discourage abstinence among teenage girls. And then further, that when the objections are raised, they are most likely to be raised as pseudo-scientific ones rather than the actual objections themselves. I don't know enough about it to write anything, so over to somebody who does if it has any merit. Ajkgordon (talk) 09:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but can't think of how to make it a section. Will mention it somewhere. Scarlet A.pngsshole 09:37, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
It's a start, but I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, so it needs improving. Sorry if I came across as a bit harsh in the libertarian bit, but I just get really frustrated with some libertarians' inability to grasp the concept that one's personal decisions do affect other people, so I take every opportunity possible to tell them to go fuck themselves. Star of David.png Radioactive Misanthrope 10:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry but I removed that little bit just because it doesn't fit with the "Gold" label of the article. Otherwise, exactly what I thought it should say. Ajkgordon (talk) 10:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey, if it didn't fit, it didn't fit. Star of David.png Radioactive Misanthrope 10:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Personal irony

As an aside, I find it ironic that the night I almost threw my TV out the window because of a Jenny McCarthy anti-vaccine propaganda film on the "Documentary Channel" that I watched about 5 minutes of before I was too pissed off at her, I should come here and see heavy amounts of attention given to this article. That is all. Anarcho Symphony Noise Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living 10:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Since they are no longer CRTs, throwing TVs out of windows is a lot less satisfying. Ajkgordon (talk) 10:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
But throwing and embedding remote controls into them have become far easier. CRTs are quite robust. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 10:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Title change

This title is a "legacy title" from the early days of RW when we were constructing "essays" as much as "articles" and didn't have 7+ years experience in article creation and conventions. This is a solid article that has failed to really raise in prominence at the same rate of its cohorts and I think a big part of that is its title. Its an obscure term for what the article is about. I think it should be renamed to something like "anti-vaccination" or "anti-vaccination movement." Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The latter IMHO. Тyrant 19:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
"Movement" is too wikipedia. I was about to suggest "anti-vaccination debate" but it's not a debate so much as bunch of idiots on youtube and daytime tv regurgitating disparate anecdotes and semi-research. Anyone have a betterer idea? Sophiebecause liberals 19:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Vaccine denialism? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
"Ignorant knobheads"? DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 19:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Too general. "Vaccine denialism" is becomeing standard these days - knobheads are everywhere. Peter Monomorium antarcticum 19:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Like WIGO:CP? /Rimshot Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
So... ТySerious Business Guy 17:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Bump again, thinking Anti-Vaccine or Anti-Vaccine Movement. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I find the current title charming... what about just creating redirects for those? If a name change is warranted, I'd cast my vote for Vaccine denialism. — Unsigned, by: ORavenhurst / talkDo You Believe That? 18:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
The issue is that we are the only ones that refer to it as vaccine hysteria, therefor this article, one of our better ones, languishes in obscurity that it doesn't deserve. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
"Vaccine denialism" is really the only title that works given RW. "Vaccine controversy" and "anti-vaccination movement" and that ilk are, as said, too much like Wikipedia for us, while truncating it to "anti-vaccination" or "anti-vaccine" isn't really a title that makes much sense. Scarlet A.pngpathetic 18:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Just saying, by using titles like this we greatly restrict the chances of our article ever being discovered by someone who doesn't all ready agree with it. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I see that point, but what is the most appropriate direction? Odds are that even if someone didn't agree with it, they wouldn't be swayed. We have a toss up between preaching to the converted and preaching to the unconvertable. Scarlet A.pngbomination 01:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I like vaccine hysteria better, because vaccine denialism to me is still too neutral. Vaccine denialism ain't bad, but hysteria implies that anti-vaxers are deluded and histrionic. Which they are. And that's a description I can get behind for these numbnuts. Dr. Swordopolis (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Same. Osaka Sun (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I still say the title should be what people search for when looking for info on the topic. Vaccine denialism and Vaccine hysteria are both bad titles based on this criteria. Tmtoulouse (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Alright. ТyAsk me about frog-backed securities 01:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
"Hysteria" comes from the Greek word for uterus, and historically was used to dismiss the antics of women. That's why we have "hysteria" and "hysterical" referring to craziness, because everyone knows that those insane shrill women just have alien uterus disease that makes them crazy.
In any event I don't favor "vaccine hysteria". "Vaccine denialism" works, but I think it's best to follow Tmtoulouse's advice and be a bit more mainstream with, say, "Anti-vaccine movement". Picon small.pngLiquid Blue 01:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

[edit] In the news recently

I saw this[1] article on Forbes and thought it should go in. I'm no expert on this subject so I thought I'd bring it up and let wiser editors then myself handle it. — Unsigned, by: Hamilton / talk / contribs

It may have been mentioned already, I'll check and find a spot for it. Scarlet A.pngtheist 10:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Hehehe... one of the comments says "here are some links to studies that PROVE the vaccine makes things worse" - ooh, a study in the Lancet? PNAS? The BMJ? No, www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoughVaccineIsMakingMattersWorse. Herp derp derp herp herp derp. Scarlet A.pngnarchist 10:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
That facebook page links to at least one real study regarding parapertussis herp derp derp. Anyway I heard that something like 90% of people coming down with pertussis had been vaccinated and I personally know someone who was vaccinated 1.5 years ago and still got it. From what I've gathered, it sounds like the acellular pertussis vaccine (e.g. DTaP) may be much less effective than the (destroyed) whole virus vaccine, i.e. DTwP. Also, I heard that the US government bought buttloads of DTaP and is trying to push it to save face. I don't believe in woo woo; but it is an awful lot to ask the average person to sort all this stuff out or to trust in government bureaucrats and researchers to be unbiased and not succumb to politics, the influence of money, and groupthink. At least some of the people who are turning down vaccines are probably making rational decisions based on their limited time, cognitive abilities, access to data, and level of trust in various organizations. I have ideas on how to improve the situation but I'm sure they'd be rudely attacked here.Abraxas (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
If you mean to trust in anecdotal evidence and "I heard" then, yes, you probably would be rudely attacked here. Scarlet A.pngnarchistModerator 17:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Resistance to compulsory vaccination among healthcare workers is often reported. These are the very people at the heart of healthcare, which raises doubts about the quality of the evidence and the consensus <ref>Vaccine required, workers resist story in new News8 2012, Nov 30</ref>. This was edited out of the article... uncomfortable huh?--Brasov (talk) 12:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Not terribly impressive. It's people being paranoid - and "heart of healthcare" doesn't really say anything. These are assistants and nurses, not people qualified to assess medical risks. If you bother to read the article, the main thrust of the argument is this: "Because it's a violation of my rights and i [sic] don't believe any employer should force, coerce or threaten any employee to receive a vaccination they're opposed to just to keep their job,". The article then goes on to mention wariness of "formaldehyde, mercury, and illuminum". Two of those aren't actually in vaccines, and one of those things doesn't exist. As a quality of source, and quality of argument, that is genuinely laughable. Scarlet A.pngbominationModerator 12:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, clinicians who inform patients about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, who are in a privileged position to observe their adverse effects on others first-hand, refuse to be vaccinated themselves. It must be paranoia. These people are just irrational and uneducated about the vaccines they recommend. Alrighty, nothing to see here, move on...--Brasov (talk) 13:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Au contraire, clinicians who inform patients about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, who are in a privileged position to observe their adverse effects on others first-hand, are taking the annual flue vaccine in droves in the UK. When you look at the stories you link to the two examples given are a nurse's assistant and a housekeeper. Not exactly Health Care experts, for all that they do a fine job in their fields. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Largest National Nurses Union Opposes Mandatory Flu Vaccination as Condition of Employment We got the vaccine zealots here downplaying the refusal by health professionals of "safe, life saving vaccination" that's happening all over the place. There only seems to be a problem when a vaccine is made mandatory for them, but not as a condition for admission of kids in school. But you swear they're innocuous, they save patient's lives, so just f--ing take the vaccine!--Brasov (talk) 13:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Compare and contrast with UNISON - one of the UK unions representing nurses -
UNISON is urging all nurses and midwives working in health services to get their seasonal flu vaccination.

Gail Adams, UNISON Head of Nursing, said:

More and more nurses, midwives and healthcare workers recognise the need to have the vaccine, because flu can kill, which is why having the flu jab will help to protect staff, their patients and families.
This is the nurse's union - nothing to go with government or big pharma. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh, and from the link you posted
Despite that, the BCNU and other health-care organizations continue to recommend immunization to their members. It’s the best we’ve got, Ms. McPherson said. But it has to be a matter of choice.
So they're not against the vaccine, they're against it being mandatory. This is hardly "refusing to be vaccinated", it's "refusing to be mandated to be vaccinated" - that's a very different thing. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Thimerosal

Serious damage to astrocites exposed to Thimerosal concentrations 8.5 times lower than the one found in a flu vaccine vial have been documented in <ref>Sharpe MA, Livingston AD, Baskin DS. Thimerosal-Derived Ethylmercury Is a Mitochondrial Toxin in Human Astrocytes Journal of toxicology. 2012;2012:373678. Epub 2012 Jun 28.</ref>. Astrocytes are altered in the frontal cortex of autistic subjects, which may contribute to the pathogenesis of autism <ref>A.M. Sheikh1, W. Guang, F. Cao, A. Yin, M. Malik, W.T. Brown and X. Li Alteration of Astrocyte in the Frontal Cortex of Autistic Subjects International Society for Autism Research. 2012 May 17</ref>. This was edited out of the article too... uncomfortable! --Brasov (talk) 12:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You know thimerosal is more or less phased out now, right? Get with the times. Scarlet A.pngnarchistModerator 12:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I live in the present, pal. Do you? Thimerosal is the flu vaccine that's been peddled ad nauseam in the media as we speak, so it's indeed used and promoted in a massive scale. Also, phasing out a toxic substance is no excuse to lie about its safety. You get the fallacy, don't you?--Brasov (talk) 12:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Thimerosal was phased out, as a purely precautionary measure to placate morons like you in 2005. Come out from under your tin foil hat and meet the real world. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
In medicine, precautionary measures taken against plausible dangers, silly, not against beliefs. Otherwise medical consensus wouldn't be evidence based, which is not what you want to imply, do you? The decision to remove it was a made to decrease overall exposure to mercury among young infants. Now, you're in denial of the two papers from 2012 connecting Thimerosal, astrocites and autism. Pants down!--Brasov (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
In immunology it's important to reach herd immunity and, with arseholes like you around, you have to work around the latest scare stories in an attempt to keep the levels high enough. Oh, and I don't think those papers say what you want them to say. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The H.I. fallacy is so easily debunked. Vaccine-induced antibodies have waned by 10-20 years. Most wane as early as 2-3 years. This means that people vaccinated as children remain susceptible during at least 3/4ths of their adult lives. So we've always been living well below 50% immunization coverage for any "vaccine preventable" disease, including polio, whereas the Herd Immunity threshold is above 95%. Why aren't the streets littered with corpses? Shouldn't we all by dying of "vaccine preventable" diseases? --Brasov (talk) 15:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think those papers say what you want them to say. You've got to read them first, then debunk. Not the other way around, moron! You're proving to be a ball of assumptions and beliefs.--Brasov (talk) 15:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
You don't get to just pick a random, unreplicated in vivo study and claim it trumps the multitude of large scale, replicated studies that have shown no serious adverse effects from the use of thimerosal in vaccines. You also fail to understand our positions, we are stating that there is no evidence for thimerosal causing problems not that it does not. If evidence emerges it will change our minds and we go from there. But small scale, single studies do not serious evidence make. Tmtoulouse (talk) 15:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
When the study focus on an aspect never looked at before, which is the case of Thimerosal and astrocites, previous evidence is irrelevant. In previous studies this kind of toxicity was simply assumed not to be there, and therefore, the associated symptoms would have been discarded as "unrelated". You may also understand that the weight of evidence is different for a passive subject, the researcher, than for a person actively undergoing the medical procedure. For the latter, the plausibility of a serious adverse outcome is enough of a deterrent. The plausibility is there and more data keeps surfacing.--Brasov (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The nice thing about epidemiological studies is that a specific causative factor is not needed. You can look directly at a treatment and it's effects and everything in between is a black box. Thimerosal containing vaccines underwent multiple large scale epidemiology studies that show no significant health defects, and most defiantly no relationship with autism diagnosis. Another point to make is that neither you, nor I, are toxicologist or have the expertise to fully vet the kind of studies you just linked to. We have to rely on the community of experts in that field and that involves replication and extension and metareviews none of which has happened yet for your "new data." One lesson I have learned in science is that the vast, vast, vast majority of "significant" results published in only a single study go absolutely no where. There is sooo much research being published right now that it is easy to find something that says anything you want. So far what you have cited doesn't even have other citing to it yet, let alone any sort of vetting by the wider community. And speaking of the expert community the strong consensus based on all the evidence that neither of us has the time nor expertise to go through is that there is no problem with Thimerosal in vaccines. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The nice thing about epidemiological studies is that a specific causative factor is not needed. If it were so, Cohort studies would not rank 4th in the Hierarchy of Evidence. This means they're still plagued by biases, including diagnostic bias, if the diagnosis depends on the knowledge of the exposure status. If no exposure of astrocites is suspected - lack of knowledge - then diagnostics can oversee it. Your argument that epidemiological studies are robust to detect interactions not considered in the model, is weak.--Brasov (talk) 16:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Where epidemiological studies excel is in linking treatments to overt symptoms and particularly other diagnoses. If thimerosal exposure increased the likelihood that someone would be diagnosed with autism the epidemiological study would find that link. It would also find that link to any noticeable and reportable symptom associated with the treatment. Your right that epidemiological studies are not very good at detecting extremely rare adverse effects or symptoms that go unnoticed by patient or researchers. But this was not your initial claim. If you want to back track and say that thimerosal might cause changes to the body that don't cause major overt symptoms and are not easily detectable, that is very different than saying look it causes autism. The ladder is directly addressed by the epidemiological data, the former can not be addressed by epidemiological data. Going back directly to the linked study, lets reverse this in a thought experiment. If I came to you and said that I have a single study that discovered that when I put cancer cells and healthy cells in a petridish administration of a miracle drug only killed the cancer cells, would you advocate approval of that drug immediately for treatment of cancer? Would the fact that no one has yet to replicate it, or even cite to the research bother you? How far up the evidential ladder would you have to go till you got interested in the drug? Same idea applies here. It doesn't become interesting until there are multiple independent replications of the data. About the time the first major meta-reviews are being published that's when I am interested, but still convincing evidence will require looking at in the "wild." Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
How far up the evidential ladder would you have to go till you got interested in the drug?. For a patient in perfect health, as is the case with vaccines? Infinity and beyond. You can't apply the same reasoning to a healthy individual and a terminal cancer patient. You're losing sight of the context and have drifted far out. --Brasov (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Wow you completely missed my point, and agreed with it at the same time. You don't make decisions about safety and efficacy based on a single study, specially not one of the quality you have linked to. Tmtoulouse (talk) 19:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Yet another miss. You do make decisions about safety and efficacy based on a single study if you're a healthy person proposed for treatment of a perceived risk. You do even with less, if the product is a strong neurotoxic of no therapeutic value. You treat people, not risks, and the effect of a mixture of both intended an uninteded antigens on a given indivudual is Russian Roulette.--Brasov (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this is supposed to say. It seems like pigeon chess - all you've done is say "nu-uuuh!!!!!!" and that's it. What is your point? You present one, single, small-scale study, are told by a statistics expert that this is not a significant trump card to play against larger and more useful evidence, and then what? Just reply "no", and that's it. Scarlet A.pnggnosticModerator 23:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
My point has been spelled out in very clear wording before replies started to drift after red herrings: "When a study focues on an aspect never looked at before....". The red herrings mean you guys struck bedrock. Replies have entered a loop, uninteresting. --Brasov (talk) 23:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
That didn't very clearly explain anything. That's why I'm curious as to why you think this single study trumps a lot of other evidence. Besides, you're still discussing a chemical that's phased out of vaccines, and using it as a case against all vaccination - even still a compound for which there is no epidemiological link to neurotoxity stemming from exposure in vaccines. Scarlet A.pngpostateModerator 00:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
you're still discussing a chemical that's phased out of vaccines. Look, you're repeating. I already said Thimerosal is used massively, in spite of your "phase-out" allegation, in flu vaccines. When I'm forced to make such obvious points, it means I'm being challenged by people that know zilch about the subject.--Brasov (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
there is no epidemiological link to neurotoxity stemming from exposure in vaccines. I've already addressed that too. Go back to my: "Cohort studies rank 4th in the Hierarchy of Evidence. This means they're still plagued by biases, including diagnostic bias...". Being asked the same questions over and over again shows your lack of arguments against the points made.--Brasov (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The page states that no new vaccines contain thimerosal. That is phasing out. It also states the CDC has no evidence that it's harmful. Now, when you state "cohort studies rank 4th" that means this: NOTHING. Studies look at evidence in different ways, and some allow us to see subtle effects more easily. But that doesn't mean one type of test will show one answer and something else might show a different one. Vaccines have been used for so long as studied so extensively that these studies will have shown a link - regardless of this arbitrary ranking. You don't understand how testing and epidemiology work if you're making this assertion. Scarlet A.pngpatheticModerator 11:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
That is phasing out. Red herring. The product is used massively as we speak and the intention of phasing it out has no bearing on the toxicity of the product, other than precautionary measures amount to an acknowledgement of risks.--Brasov (talk) 13:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Vaccines have been used for so long as studied so extensively these studies will have shown a link.(1) regarding use, claims of autism are abundantly filed by users and denied. (2) Regarding "studies will have shown a link", this is Inductive reasoning, which is subjective and does not necessary follow.--Brasov (talk) 13:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
when you state "cohort studies rank 4th" that means this: NOTHING. When you dismiss with You present one, single, small-scale study, it also means NOTHING. Debunking a study without opening its text and reading it is an exercise in stupidity, I won't play. Still you claim that epidemiological studies where this type of toxicity wasn't even contemplated in the design, because it was unknwon, imply the study on astrocites is flawed. It actually implies the studies are irrelevant for the topic at hand. --Brasov (talk) 13:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Another point to make is that neither you, nor I, are toxicologist. Thare are many situations in which an "appeal to authority" is fallacious. For example, a toxicologist publishes a concentration of Thimerosal that is highly toxic in-vitro to astrocites: concentration A. Another toxicologist publishes the concentration of Thimerosal in the Flu vaccine: concentration B. What level of expertise is needed to conclude: B > A? I'll tell you: not even basic arithmetic or the four rules. Then you can go to great lengths to explain how the highly toxic vial concentration is supposed to diffuse from the injection site into the bloodstream without exposing your astrocites to a toxic concentration in the process.--Brasov (talk) 16:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
But that is just it your leaping way ahead of yourself. Your not comparing apples to apples, your comparing a single, non-replicated, uncited, small scale, in vivo study to 20 years worth of research spanning many forms of data collection and analysis. You have a single data point, the field has a preponderance of evidence. The appeal to authority comes not in examining a single study but rather the experts who have reviewed the extremely voluminous amounts of published studies and tell us that their is no evidence of an increase in risk associated with its use. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
You're diverting, not addressing my objections. I'm not "jumping ahead of myself", as the concentration A is given in the study I cited above, and B is given in any flu vaccine insert. Go look them up. Then tell anyone that isn't illiterate that's fine and dandy to have such a vial injected. An please, stop hiding behind "voluminous" amount of volumes you've never read and neither have most of the "voluminous" amount of "experts" that subscribed you pretended consensus.--Brasov (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but when I was at the annual meeting of the Royal Statistical Society which was held, that year, in honour of a medical statistician, I brought up the subject of vaccine hysteria. These guys have read the volumous amount of volumes - they wrote most of them. They also know, as statisticians, how to handle data, what is significant and what is not. Call it an appeal to authority but whose opinion would you take, a collection of the top medical statisticians in the UK or some internet nutter? Just saying. Innocent Bystander (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
or some internet nutter?. Someone like you? Going back to the "volumous amount of volumes" argument... The volumes of knowledge Evolution has written in our genes vastly overweight anything your petty Society members can possibly achieve. Vaccines do not make a healthy human, neither do meds. Our genome has defined, by Natural Selection, what's good for our health: proper nutrition, proper elimination, physical activity, rest... just use the evolutionary knowledge instead of reinventing the wheel.--Brasov (talk) 11:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
If you're looking for Vaccine Hysteria you need go no further than the WHO: WHO - State of the World's Vaccines and Immunization "Foreword - Imagine a world without vaccines. Life-threatening diseases would present a daily risk. We would live in fear of deadly strains of diphtheria, tetanus and measles; polio would be a constant danger and in a matter of hours could paralyze a child, and smallpox would continue to scar and kill. All these diseases would claim the lives of our children in vast numbers, families watching helplessly. Lives would be cut short and people’s movement severely restricted. Cities would be places to flee at the first rumour of infection rather than magnets for culture, commerce and learning. It is hard to imagine the loss in lives, creativity, productivity, potential and well-being.".--Brasov (talk) 17:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
You can not compare a very small scale in vitro study, with zero replication and say that its results through some magical crank transitive property are perfectly applicable to exposure in people through vaccines. Your missing a lot of middle and that is why your jumping ahead of yourself. Regardless, I am not in the mood for internet argument, I am not an expert nor are you. I assume your point in all of this is you want to include new material in the article. I am telling you that at the very least you would have to cite evidence that has been independently replicated. Until then there is no point including something that is likely to go nowhere. Tmtoulouse (talk) 17:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
What Trent said. Otherwise this is argumentum ad tedium. Scarlet A.pngnarchistModerator 17:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
"8.5 times lower than the one found in a flu vaccine vial" A flu vaccine dose is 0.5 ml. The human body has about 5000 mililiters of blood. The vaccine is injected into the veins, not the carotid artery. Don't worry, it's still safe! Hipocrite (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
A highly toxic vial with "safety factor": the subject itself. It's like: "Hey, this junk is deadly to astrocites and you'll make it safe, not us. No worries!". The subject is expected to function as waste filter, diluting the toxic concentrate with its blood and swearing by Glaxo that no toxic level can ever reach the brain in the process. Mindless and reckless. Not with me, not with my child!--Putin2.jpg Brasov 00:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
And what exactly puts you in possession of information that medical science does not have about the toxicity of vaccines and/or thimerosal? And do try to come up with something better than cui bono. EVDebs (talk) 01:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Medical science is the source of the data I share. You must be mistaking science with textbooks, package inserts of CDC fliers. Go to the primary sources and look at the data, then instead of buying the author's interpretation, question it. Find the flaws, reconnect the dots. Brains have a function, don't take inductive shortcuts like "lots of people can't be wrong". They can because they also took the same shorcut. --Putin2.jpg Brasov 02:00, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Ah yes, the Eric S. Raymond error cascade. Because science never uses multiple lines of evidence to prove things. EVDebs (talk) 02:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Science this, science that... Appeal to an abstraction. Science can't be assimilated to scientists, which are people presumed to produce science. When the founders of Evidence Based Medicine, Cochrane Collaboration were forced to conclude: "...The review [ of industry funded studies ] showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies..." you know something is very, very rotten in Danemark. Your appeal to trust (the mental shortcut again) has to be backed by evidence of the safeguard mechanisms of Science actually being observed by the people doing vaccines. But the evidence points to the exact opposite.--Putin2.jpg Brasov 10:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian Public Health Association

Article on how to evaluate reliability of info on the net. [2] Focuses on vaccination info, but is obviously more broadly applicable. Pashley (talk) 06:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Now they're blaming peanut allergies on vaccines

It was only a matter of time before food allergies joined the list of evils purportedly spread by vaccines.

I just found this article on a website called "The Doctor Within". In it, the rise in serum vaccinations is correlated with the rise in peanut allergies. Coincidence? Or ... conspiracy!

Were the Vaccine Denialism article an ordinary article, I'd have added an entry about this topic immediately. But since it's a GOLD-quality article, I'd want someone else's take on the subject (preferably someone who's more knowledgeable about the subject matter in the linked website) before I add anything to the article.

--Tracer (talk) 05:02, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Opinions of autistic individual

I've been scouring the web to attempt to find an opinion from somebody who actually has autism on this whole thing. Surprise surprise, I find nothing from any sites promoting denialism. Unfortunately (but not unexpected) I also didn't find much from any organizations dedicated to autism. I've read some autistic individuals who have written how they find it all very insulting, especially because it seems to be a bunch of parents, some of them with autistic children themselves, saying essentially, "Now that I personally believe that vaccines caused my child to get autism, if I could go back in time I would have not vaccinated and let them risk serious illness and death rather than have had them come out this way." I was wondering if anyone had a good source for something like this, since it's a gold standard article and I didn't want to just throw the claim out there that "Some autistic individuals feel..." --ShadowofLords (talk) 17:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Autism Speaks actually is in the anti-vexer crowd. Zero (talk) 17:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Is that really relevant though? POV is great and all but is it really needed on such an article? Firemylasers (talk) 20:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I think it's definitely relevant. (Though I'm autistic myself, so perhaps there's a bit of a conflict of interest.) We want to show that the belief is not only untrue, but that it's ridiculous. The underlying premise is "I'd prefer my child to have polio over autism", which is an awful thing for any parent to think about their child. The angle should probably be less "this is offensive to autistic people" and more "they haven't thought of the implications of their belief". Kimberly (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
It's not really a conflict of interest, more an inside view. If you want to add a comment saying what you just said here then go ahead. It needs saying. SophieWilderModerator 20:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Relevant?

Found this on Reddit. Claims the anti-vax movement has over 1,100 victims. It blames them all on Jenny McCarthy though. But still, seemed relevant.--Token Conservative (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

It could be relevant, but I don't think that's the right figure to use. The people that died of those "vaccine preventable" diseases might have actually gotten the vaccine (they're not always effective), they might not have been able to take the vaccine for health reasons, they might be opposed to vaccination for a religious reason even though they don't deny vaccines' effectiveness, etc. Kimberly (talk) 22:13, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Vaccine safety concerns are to be separated from vaccine denialism

CAUTION Wiki newbie ...

I think it is important to point out that there are two issues. 1) Vaccines vs. no vaccines debate. 2) Unsafe vaccines vs. safe vaccines debate.

I am talking about unsafe vaccines vs. safe vaccines.

I have references to peer reviewed published scientific papers showing relation between vaccines/injections/tick bites and food allergies below.

https://sites.google.com/site/vaccineinducedfoodallergy/

I think denying such evidence would not be in line with rationalwiki's mission as I understand it.

Vinucube (talk) 04:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I could swear this article used to be called vaccine hysteria--"Shut up, Brx." 05:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
This subject has been discussed in detail here:http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/78023-direct-evidence-from-the-cdc-that-vaccines-cause-food-allergies/ Vinucube (talk) 04:40, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
And you got woodshedded to hell and back by a bunch of people who were clearly bored with your PRATTfall. EVDebs (talk) 04:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Please provide evidence. Vinucube (talk) 15:43, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the links to Science Forums. I knew you were talking total bollocks and it was nice to see everything you said so completely debunked in one thread.
People like you have blood on your hands. Measles was all but dead - and now it's babies that are dead due to unfounded panics spread by morons. Vaccination works and the minuscule risks are far, far outweighed by the benefits but now we're having the old bogeymen resurrected with measles outbreaks clearly associated with panicmongers like you. Innocent Bystander (talk) 16:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I hope I made myself clear. I am not anti-vaccine. I am pro-safe vaccines. Since the gap appears large between our positions, lets try smaller steps ...
Red meat allergy caused by tick bites
Tick bites result in the injection of a protein called alpha-gal (which is present in red meat) into the blood stream causing red meat allergy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057034/
Food allergies caused by proton pump inhibitors (PPI)
When acidity in the stomach is reduced by acid reducing medications, food proteins are not broken down. They travel to the intestine intact and get absorbed into the blood stream causing food allergies. http://www.immuneweb.com/wenzhai/pdf/010301.pdf
Gelatin allergy caused by gelatin in the DTaP vaccine
Gelatin in the vaccine injected into the blood stream causes gelatin allergy. Nakayama T, Aizawa C, Kuno-Sakai H. A clinical analysis of gelatin allergy and determination of its causal relationship to the previous administration of gelatin-containing acellular pertussis vaccine combined with diphtheria and tetanus toxoids. J Allergy Clin Immunol 1999;103:321--5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
If you disagree with the above, counter-evidence of comparable quality will be greatly appreciated.
Vinucube (talk) 03:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Usually, people who are anti-vaccine try to disguise their qualms with some JAQing off over safety. The rub is that "safe" is such a relative term and prone to misuse. Questions over allergies and adverse reactions aren't denied by the pro-vaccine 'side', but they are significantly overblown and misrepresented by the anti-vax movement. Trying to say that "safety concerns" are legitimate is to give a lot of false legitimacy to the anti-vax movement by claiming the pro-vaccine crowd ignore them. This is patently false. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 12:01, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
All medical treatments carry a risk. Putting on a sticky plaster (Band Aid) carries a risk - there are a number who are allergic to the glue. However we still use sticky plasters because the benefits outweigh the risks by several orders of magnitude. Similarly with a treatment like the MMR, one of the anti-vax bogey men, there is an associated risk. A risk that is well known, well understood and well documented. However, when this risk is measured against the risk to the health of children from these diseases then the benefits outweigh the risk by several orders of magnitude.
But scaremongers like Vinucube, for whatever reason, are putting populations at risk. People die because of anti vax scares. Distorting the facts by wildly exaggerating the risks is plain evil. Am I being harsh? Ask the family of Gareth Colfer-Williams. Innocent Bystander (talk) 12:16, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
To clarify, we are discussing vaccines/injections causing life-threatening food allergies. Vaccines/injections causing anaphylaxis is a secondary concern.
As far as I know, vaccine inserts and CDC documentation do NOT list the development of food allergies as a possible side effect.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495022 is an example where food allergy is induced in mice. Mice are injected with food proteins along with alum as an adjuvant and the mice develop food allergies.
Food proteins are injected into humans via vaccines/injections and they too can contain alum as an adjuvant. All the evidence above from varied and independent sources demonstrate in both humans and animals, Charles Richet's Nobel Prize winning discovery that proteins injected into the blood stream, causes the organism to develop an allergy to the protein.
Nakayama et al., reads "In the preliminary
results investigating the immunogenicity of gelatin in
DTaP, a trace amount of gelatin in DTaP was immunogenic.
We examined 165 paired sera obtained before the
first dose of DTaP and 1 month after the third dose of
DTaP. Of 165 paired sera, 62 were obtained from the
recipients of gelatin-free DTaP, and IgE antibodies to
gelatin developed in none. In 103 recipients of gelatincontaining
DTaP, IgE antibodies to gelatin developed in 2
recipients."
So 2% of gelatin containing DTaP recipients developed allergy to gelatin. Food proteins levels vary widely in vaccines as shown here:
http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/gelatin-allergies.html
MMR has 10000x more gelatin than DTaP.
"In the gastrointestinal tract of babies born by c-section, there is a pattern of "at risk" microorganisms that may cause them to be more vulnerable to developing the antibody Immunoglobulin E, or IgE, when in contact with allergens" - Christine Cole Johnson, Ph.D., MPH, chair of Henry Ford Department of Health Sciences.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(12)03130-2/fulltext
Nakayama et al. looked at the effect of only one vaccine. Vaccines are given in multiple doses with each dose increasing the percentage of population that develops immunity. One can expect the same result for food allergy development. Today not only are kids receiving 20-30 or more shots, they also receive as many as 5 shots in one sitting. That's 5 times the amount food proteins and adjuvants at one time.
Number of C section deliveries have been going up.
Number of vaccines shots have been going up.
Number of simultaneous shots per sitting have gone up to 5
Number of Americans with food allergies have gone up to 15 million.
Given all the evidence I cited, what are the odds that all of the above is a mere coincidence?
Regarding benefits vs. cost, we are talking about the cost of developing vaccines free of food proteins vs. the benefit of saving the lives of children lost to life-threatening food allergies.
To clarify again, my goals are as follows:
Intermediate goal:No more than one vaccine a month to reduce risk of developing food allergies.
Final goal: Eliminate food proteins from vaccines/injections.
BTW:Nakayama et al., I cited is reference 78 in CDC's own document called "Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)".http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm
Vinucube (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624794 Vinucube (talk) 05:14, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Vinucube you have a point that there appears to be a correlation (and potential mechanism seen in the sources you've provided) that merits further study. There are so many factors at play though, I would suggest at MOST a brief mention that there is no literature available that proves or disproves the possibility of vaccine-acquired immunogenicity to common food allergens. Then again, that's more fuel for the Jenny McCarthy's of the world to use in their quest to spread preventable childhood disease and hysteria, so it would most likely be best to wait until a study is released to make any claims. Does anyone know of any current studies of a bonafide link? For all we know this "increase" in allergies really could just be genetics, non-clinical misdiagnosis, or overly protective parents who keep their kids "safe" from immunity-building encounters with said allergens. Beatgroover (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Why was this moved from vaccine hysteria?

A minor quibble, surely, but I think categorically vaccine hysteria would be the better title for the article. Denial doesn't really fit all the stuff the page discusses. http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Vaccine_hysteria&action=history ADK moved it at some point,] but I don't know why.

I support making it hysteria again.--"Shut up, Brx." 02:52, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

There was a fair consensus, lead by Trent if I remember rightly, that nowhere else refers to the anti-vaccine movement as "vaccine hysteria". There were a few alternatives given, but "denialism" stuck because of its relative relation to most other denialism topics. Scarlet A.pngnarchist 11:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Actually, re-reading it, it appears consensus that both titles were a bit shitty. Scarlet A.pngmoral 12:04, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Article

Worth a look & a link: The Facts In The Case Of Dr. Andrew Wakefield Pashley (talk) 12:54, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

[edit] How about people claiming vaccines simply don't work?

This page does a good job of debunking the "vaccines do harm" theories, but how about the (related) claim that vaccines don't work and/or don't have anything to do with reduction in disease rates? I'm talking about stuff like this: http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/do-vaccines-save-lives-what-infectious-disease-mortality-graphs-show/ where the claim is that disease rates were declining before the introduction of vaccines. Joakim Ziegler (talk) 15:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

This should be discussed too.--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 15:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Rename? (again?)

OK, we've had this debate before, but what is really the harm in renaming this to "anti-vaccination movement?" Most people who are searching for this topic are going to search for it under that title, and it is the title that would, in all probability, get the most hit from google, yahoo, etc. Vaccine denialism, while a classic RW-esque title, isn't likely to bring the internet searches for this topic here. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 11:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I support a rename. I like vaccine hysteria, but RNS' is okay too--"Shut up, Brx." 12:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Anybody else? Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Denialism is better IMO but I would never get in the way of some good SEO. Can this be done with redirects, or does this not work? (I was not born with the ability to understand the magics of the internet) Tielec01 (talk) 07:52, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
By default, MediaWiki will leave redirects unless the person moving it turns the option off. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 08:39, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

[edit] No Known Cause for Autism is a totally false statement.

The statement there is no known cause for autism is totally wrong. There are MANY known causes of autism. Probably dozens. A bunch of genetic defects, prenatal conditions, etcetera. There are many large scale studies showing on the average vaccines do not cause autism and may even be a little bit neuroprotective - not surprising considering we've got vaccines for some types of meningitis, a known cause of brain problems, whooping cough, ditto for that, etcetera.

But there are MANY known causes for autism.— Unsigned, by: 75.61.129.92 / talk / contribs 02:45, 9 January 2014‎ (UTC)

[edit] Known side effects - flawed risk analysis

The article says:

"complications are more likely to arise from illness than from vaccination."

and cites as evidence:

"The current impact of vaccines on health is very simply stated here. Children who get measles have a 1 in 20 chance of developing a serious complication; however, serious complications from the vaccine number 1 or 2 per million"

Those of us who have studied probability can quickly spot the fallacy here:

1. The 1:1,000,000 of getting a complication from a vaccine applies to all vaccinees.
2. In contrast, the 1:20 probability of a measles complication doesn't apply to all non-vaccinated persons, but only to a percent of them that contracts measles, which is ...?

So the author is not being honest here by comparing apples and pears. This risk analysis is totally bogus. 145.64.134.241 (talk) 15:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's pretty clear. Somebody is more likely to contract a serious problem from measles than vaccines. How is that hard to discern? Zero (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
You have no idea of probability calculus. You need to know the percent of non-vaccinated persons that get measles before you can discern. 145.64.134.241 (talk) 15:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
That being said you have no idea about calculus either since this isn't even calculus! But maybe this will satisfy your curiosity: "Nearly Universal." Zero (talk) 15:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
If by "this" isn't calculus then let's remove the bogus probability comparison from the page and the corresponding bogus conclussion.
Your CDC link does not address the missing data of what percent of non-vaccinated people get measles, so it adds nothing to the debate. 145.64.134.241 (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Fuck it. Seriously. If I show you the CDC saying "Nearly Universal" and that's not good enough for you then I'm not wasting my time satisfying a BoN. Zero (talk) 15:48, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

"Infection with measles virus was nearly universal" does not imply clinical measles was universal. It is clinical measles that has complications, obviously, while infection can go subclinical. 145.64.134.241 (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
OK, lets try this - and I've biased the figures as far as possible against vaccination.
  • Pre vaccine prevelence of measles was 'near universal' - let's call that 80% to be on the safe side - and ALL measles is clinical.
  • Of that 80% 5% get serious complications - so that's 4% of the population get serious complications
  • Even in a measles outbreak the risk of vaccinated children getting measles is <5% (If there weren't vax deniers then there would be no measles but that's another story)
  • Of those 5% 5% get serious complications - that's 0.25%
  • Plus, of course the 2 per million from vaccination complcations - so we've got to raise that to 0.2502%
  • So, by vaccinating your child you reduce the risk of serious complications by a factor of 16.
  • So anyone who doesn't vaccinate their child is putting him or her at a stupid and uneccessary risk - not to mention the whole herd immunity thing. We no longer need to vaccinate for smallpox because we vaccinated it out of existence.
Placeholder (talk) 16:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
You say: "Pre vaccine prevelence of measles was 'near universal'", but the CDC say: "infection with measles virus was nearly universal", which includes subclinical. Then you claim "ALL measles is clinical", but the CDC is talking about infection with measles virus which can be subclinical:
Seroconversions in unvaccinated infants: further evidence for subclinical measles from vaccine trials in Niakhar, Senegal.
"...One-fifth (n = 53) of the placebo controls seroconverted..."
You're shifting goals and trying obfuscation. 145.64.134.241 (talk) 16:28, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
You say "Of that 80% 5% get serious complications " but the CDC says: "Acute encephalitis occurs in approximately 0.1%" an this is the most serious complication mentioned by the CDC.
Regarding the vaccine, the CDC says "...one additional febrile seizure occurred 5–12 days after vaccination per 2,300–2,600 children who had received the first dose of MMRV vaccine". So we have a vaccine complication akin to encephalitis in 0.04% of vacciness. That's a lot more then the pretended 1 in 2,000,000.
The whole risk/benefit analysis of vaccines is a chimp's tea party where vaccine dangers are downplayed and measles complications exaggerated. 145.64.134.241 (talk) 16:45, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Good to know that you are here to restore objectivity. Your hostile certitude inspires confidence. I'd point out that in the linked CDC article "Nearly Universal" seizures occur as a complication of measles in .6%-.7% of cases, or about 1 in 167 infected. If you want to count febrile seizures as a serious complication on par with death, we can do so, but it would probably not be favorable to your position. Note that encephalitis occurs ten times as often among the infected as compared with the vaccinated, .1%. Yes, a complete analysis in terms of mathematical probability needs to recognize that not all people who go unvaccinated contract the disease, but infection rates vary depending on the population that you live in. In the pre-vaccine world measles was nearly universal, though, and not at all close to 1 in 10.
And looking at your actual quote on febrile seizures, it looks like you may be failing to comprehend. Here's the full quote:
Two postlicensure studies indicated that among children 12–23 months of age, one additional febrile seizure occurred 5–12 days after vaccination per 2,300–2,600 children who had received the first dose of MMRV vaccine compared with children who had received the first dose of MMR vaccine and varicella vaccine administered as separate injections at the same visit. Data from postlicensure studies do not suggest that children 4–6 years of age who received the second dose of MMRV vaccine had an increased risk for febrile seizures after vaccination compared with children the same age who received MMR vaccine and varicella vaccine administered as separate injections at the same visit.
Emphasis is of course mine. What is your actual argument? If you are talking about why we should or shouldn't avoid vaccinating for measles, which is what I thought we were talking about at this point, then this information doesn't do much to advance your position. It merely points out that there are problems with a particular strategy for vaccinating for both measles and chickenpox in one visit to the doctor. Both groups in this comparison were immunized against measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox. Some receiving the combined vaccine had an unexpected worrisome outcome in comparison to the long-standing, more conservative immunization strategy, and this is a relatively worrisome thing about the new-fangled MMRV vaccine. Shirtsleeves (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] MMR South Wales Backlack

Is this worth mentioning in the article? http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323300004578555453881252798 Hobby (talk) 10:24, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Does this include morality of not innoculation, if we pretend a link between autism and vaccines did exist?

Basically, autism is generally better than dying a slow, painful, agonizing death. So, even if they did cause autism, it's the more moral option to risk autism than to risk torture and murder of a child. Hppavilion1 (talk) 19:08, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Speaking as someone with Asperger's Disorder, I agree. The "vaccines cause autism and ought to be BANNED" scare is almost a tacit admission that the proponents think we'd be better off dead (of easily prevented diseases, no less), and frankly, does nothing for my state of mind except make me angry at such glaring (and frankly, insulting) irrationality. Least that's how I see it <_<.Sensual Endeavor, the sexy pony ;) (talk) 16:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Opinions on inclusion of article suggesting MMR vaccine has reduced one cause of autism

There is a study that I want opinions on before incorporating into the article-it actually flips things around on the anti-MMR vaccine people specifically. It is a medscape article based on epidemiological rates of congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) and its relationship to autism spectrum cases. CRS is a known contributor to cases of severe autism among other horrible things. The logic of the article seems good and Medscape is typically a good scholarly source, but I am a bit iffy on the methodology. Arachne1988 (talk) 22:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't get to your linked article. Was it based on the Berger paper inBMC Public Health? MarmotHead (talk) 22:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes it is that one. I am surprised you couldn't get to it-Medscape is free to access online, more so than most academic journals. Arachne1988 (talk) 00:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
It wanted me to login and I just didn't wanna.
The article was interesting. Methodologically, it's based on mathematical models which work differently from traditional statistical studies. This version is a kind of simulation study where the authors make a few assumptions, based on the literature, and compute the results under several scenarios. It's a kind of what-if, rather than what-did-we-observe. It doesn't seem wrong, but something based on original data collection and a hypothesis is often considered higher quality. FWIW, I've been published using both this method and statistical analyses so ... MarmotHead (talk) 01:25, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Okay so I guess I will incorporate it with some qualifiers. Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't sure how sound the methodology was due to the lack of original data.Arachne1988 (talk) 20:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Here's a link to the study the medscape article references for the connection between Autism and CRS[[3]]. 10 out of 243 CRS children had full blown autism and eight partial autism, compared to one or two out of a thousand in the rest of the population. Hertzy (talk) 20:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
"Partial autism"? I wasn't aware people used that terminology. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
It's from 1971. "Partial syndrome of autism" was apparently a diagnosis back then. Hertzy (talk) 14:59, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
D'oh, I put in the wrong prevalence number, it's one in a thousand worldwide, 1.5% in the developed world.
So the vaxxers have actually made their offspring more succeptible to severe autism by increasing the odds for congenital rubella syndrome? Yikes, talk about irony. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 20:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] How the hell is there even a debate on this?

It's utterly baffling to me that so many people don't understand the difference between a peer-reviewed scientific article published in an accredited journal, and something some crackpot posted on their blog which "sounds" true.

There is literally zero debate on this "issue" from within knowledgeable scientific circles in the scientific community. The facts (and they are facts) have been analyzed and examined by qualified professionals from a plethora of various medical fields, and the results are in: autism is not linked to vaccines.

It really is as simple as that, but it's not even open to debate, as the people willing to debate this have no credible evidence and are unable to cite literally one single valid piece of evidence from any legitimate scientific journal that suggests otherwise.

It's as simple as an "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of issue. For more information on why you need to shut the fuck up about vaccines being harmful, here is a list of just a FRACTION of the studies that have concluded in no uncertain terms that vaccination is safe: http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf Parogar (talk) 20:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

You're talking as if everybody is in the habit of reading peer-reviewed accredited scientific journals. Most people actually aren't. WěǎšěǐǒǐďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:36, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
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