Talk:Apartheid
Should this really be in a series about US discrimination? PFoster 19:52, 30 December 2007 (EST)
- I don't see a reason for it.
Acer Blue 16:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- I removed the template, not relevant to the topic, apart from the covert support from Reagan and Thatcher govts, using SA to fight commies in Angola. --PsyGremlinSpeak! 16:20, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't it raise a whole series of issues to put Coloured and Bantu in inverted commas, but not White and Indian. PatGallacher (talk) 12:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
- Not really, they dont necessarily mean what you'd expect unless you know something about S.africa. --il'Dictator Mikal 08:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think I do know something about South Africa, and I'm not sure what I would expect if I didn't. PatGallacher (talk) 11:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
The discussion of Israel on this is extremely biased, and sometimes outright false. John Kerry never labeled the occupation as apartheid, only that it risks becoming apartheid. As well, it does not provide the Israeli side of the argument, such as, there is no reason why Palestinians should be using Israeli roads, as they are in another territory than their own, and that permits to move into Israeli territory is similar to every other country's border policy.
Kentuckyball (talk) 10:15, 31 March 2015 (EST)
- Your argument is filled with apologetics for Israel that is not credibly asserted by human rights reports and I'm removing it. The assessment of John Kerry's remark is true. However, pointing to the Israeli side of the argument would be akin to using the Serbian government to support its nationalist policies in the 90's or using South Africa's strident anti-communist policies to delegitimize any armed resistance and terrorism committed against it (the Truth and Reconciliation Commission acknowledges that anti-apartheid groups killed more civilians than militants, but nobody seriously labels that acts of terrorism). I will go through your addition one by one.
- The Israeli roads are built on PALESTINIAN LAND. The International Court of Justice ruled in July 2004 that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza are occupied Palestinian Territory. That is the opinion of the highest world court and included judges who were more sympathetic to Israel. On the basis of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 49 - part 6, an occupying power cannot transfer its citizens to occupied territory. In addition, a country cannot annex territory it acquired by war under the UN Charter. This is no different than when Iraq illegally annexed Kuwait or when Russia illegally annexed Crimea. These are basic standards of international law. The only reason Israel is being criticized in the international community is because it has been flagrantly violating international law for the better part of 50 years since it occupied the Palestinian Territories. As a result, to say that Palestinians need permits and different roads on THEIR LEGALLY ENTITLED TERRITORY would be similar to the US trying to restrict the movement of Iraqis in its occupation of Iraq or Saddam Hussein arguing that the restriction of Kuwaitis is necessary despite the fact he invaded and occupied it. You have omitted the context of military occupation which is itself a violent act.
- The claim that the UN exerts bias against Israel is unfounded and frankly, ridiculous. The UN created Israel through the 1947 Partition Plan at the expense of the Palestinian population and in flagrant violation of their rights by giving 56% of the territory to people who owned only 7% of the land. And even though it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war, the UN allowed Israel to acquire 22% more land in the land of Historic Palestine after 1949. And even after 1967, despite the fact declassified Israeli documents have shown that Nasser did not intend war (Begin's quote: "In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him") and rather that Israeli officials were trying to provoke a conflict (by entering in DMZ's in Syria), the UN still gave away and allowed Israel the pretext of arguing self-defense. Only when Israel started building settlements did it incur the wrath of the international community.
- In addition, the UN has actually gave Israel far more leeway than it affords under countries. Has Israel been sanctioned for its annexation of the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem in contravention of UN Resolutions? No, but Iraq under Saddam Hussein and Russia have incurred sanctions. Has Israel had sanctions placed upon it for possessing nuclear weapons in violation of the NPT? No, but Iran is being sanctioned for even trying to develop nuclear energy. Has Israel had its officials placed at war crimes tribunals? No, but the likes of Milosevic and African dictators have. Has Israel been forced to withdraw from territories it occupied? No, but Indonesia has from its occupation of East Timor. The only reason that more resolutions are dedicated to the Israel-Palestine question is because the UN has failed to resolve the dilemma of the Palestinian refugees for a better part of 66 years and has not achieved a sovereign Palestinian state. We're talking about a conflict, since the Balfour Declaration, that has lasted for nearly a 100 years and a military occupation that is the longest current one in the world (48 years). Again, don't you think it's more than a little appropriate to dedicate resolutions to a conflict that has lasted an ungodly amount of time? This is what makes the Israel-Palestine question a little different from say Sudan.
- As far as whether there is a security justification, it's worth noting what the record says. The suicide bombings in the Second Intifada only occurred after the IDF blatantly overreacted to demonstrations by killing Palestinians through a 20:1 death ratio. And in actually, the suicide bombings were provoked by assassinations policies conducted by Israel which makes their security arguments all the less credible. Consider what military analyst Alex Fishman wrote in Ynet in November 2001: "Whoever gave a green light to this act of liquidation knew full well that he is thereby shattering in one blow the gentleman’s agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. [. . .] Under that agreement, Hamas was to avoid in the near future suicide bombings inside the Green Line."
- What do the human rights reports have to say about the legitimacy of the security argument? Amnesty International, in its 2003 report Surviving under Siege, mentions that "attacks intensified as restrictions on the movements of Palestinians increased, calling into question the effectiveness of indiscriminate restrictions that treat every Palestinian as a security threat and punish entire communities for the crimes committed by a few people.” And the outcomes of the security policies enacted on Palestinians emphasizes its deliberately discriminatory nature that undermines its self-defense arguments. Amnesty writes on the issue of mass arrests, "They are imposed on the Palestinian population alone, and not on Israeli settlers, and are often imposed on Palestinians for the benefit of Israeli settlers. Even on occasions when Israeli settlers have initiated confrontations, attacking Palestinians or destroying their property, the Israeli army invariably imposed closures, curfews or other restrictions on the Palestinians, including by declaring a closed military area and excluding them from it."
- Amnesty also notes, "Most of the restrictions on movement placed on Palestinians . . . are imposed to prevent the Palestinian popu- lation from coming into contact with the Israeli settlers. [. . .] The sweeping restrictions on the movement of Palestinians are disproportionate and discrimina- tory—they are imposed on all Palestinians because they are Palestini- ans, and not on Israeli settlers who live illegally in the Occupied Ter- ritories. . . . They have a severe negative impact on the lives of millions of Palestinians who have not committed any offence." If Israel truly was concerned about security needs, it would stop building settlements and occupying another person's land while affording the benefit of its law to the illegal settlers while denying this right to the majority population it brutalizes and controls.
- And the apartheid analogy has been made by a number of respected commentators, including: president Jimmy Carter, former Israeli Attorney General Michael Ben-Yair; former Israeli ministers of education Shulamit Aloni and Yossi Sarid; former deputy mayor of Jerusalem Meron Benvenisti; former Israeli Ambassador to South Africa Alon Liel; veteran Israeli journalist Danny Rubinstein; South African Archbishop and Nobel Laureate for Peace Desmond Tutu; “father” of human rights law in South Africa John Dugard; B’Tselem; The Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI); and the Haaretz editorial board. Even Ariel Sharon, the former prime minister of Israel, himself said that the "the Bantustan model was the most appropriate solution to the conflict."
- The excuse that it cannot be racial segregation because it's done on nationality grounds is a pathetic argument and wouldn't even pass the test of international law. Race is not a biological aspect, it is a social contract that is determined by people's observations. As John Dugard notes, "The idea of race itself has long been shown as social construct rather than scientific reality, with a process of ‘racialization’ entailing the social utilization of the concept of race as a biological category in order to organize and distort perceptions of the world’s various populations".
- If race cannot be determined biologically, what classifies as racial discrimination and what does Article 1(1) of the Convention for the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination have to say? What they say amounts to discrimination is this: "the term ‘racial discrimination’ shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. " In other words, yes, discriminating against someone on national origin can be classified as racial discrimination.
- And for those who seriously study the practice of apartheid, you would know that the South African government used the Bantustan excuse for claiming that it was not entitled to respected the rights of the indigenous blacks was because they lived in their "separate nations" like KwaZulu and Transkei. They used the excuse that the Bantustans were different countries and as such, were not responsible for blacks. In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority functions in a similar way by doing the dirty work of Israel's occupation despite the facade of "Self-rule". Consider what former Israeli minister Natan Shransky had to say: “The idea of Oslo was to find a strong dictator to . . . keep the Palestinians under control.” Former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami also had this to say, "One of the meanings of Oslo was that the PLO was . . . Israel’s collaborator in the task of stifl ing the [fi rst] inti- fada and cutt ing short what was clearly an authentically dem- ocratic struggle for Palestinian independence". So again, to assert that the Palestinians are not being discriminated against in the occupied territories under the ideal of them having self-rule in enclaves is frankly misleading.
- Bear in mind that there are other articles on the wiki that are better suited for a prolonged analysis of Israel/Palestine. The focus of this article should be overwhelmingly on south Africa. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 04:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)