Talk:Atheist fundamentalism
Nice work, Weasel. Really nice. TheoryOfPractice 18:49, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- Cheers. :-) ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:56, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- Don't we have better things then to worry about semantics? It seems like we are dismissing a valid argument on the grounds that the wording is off, which is a Conservapedia thing to do. I suggest that the article be modified to reflect that the argument can be valid even if the wording is awful. --"CURtalk 21:01, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- I second TOP. really nice Weaseloid... CUR, the reason it's so important is that it isn't just a matter of semantics, but of "argumentation", or rather, false argumentation. Instead of arguing with a person on their level, and to their merrits, people who must use WeaselWords (no offense meant, WO) to denigrate their opponent and say "see, see, he is just like what you are claiming we are", do not really grasp the issue, but are in effect just tap dancing. Are there atheist extremists? sure. Do atheists become obsessed with attacking religious folk? Sure. But they are not Fundimentalists, nor are they "anti-religionists" or other such terms which exist in the mind of the right to say "I am rubber you are glue, bounces off me and sticks to you", and of course the ever important "I know you are but what am I?"--EnAttendantGodot 21:06, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- (bloody EC) Though it's very nicely written, I kinda agree with CUR. They usually mean militant atheists, and use the fundamentalism term because it describes very similar behavior. Perhaps some arguments can be added against militant atheists to make the article a bit less about semantics and also represent both sides? Actually, I'm an atheist, but I fucking loathe some of those retarded 14yo atheist kids whose idea of an argument is an insulting motivational poster (no offense CUR). --GTac
- Ah, me to. I hate people who try to tell other people what to believe- in fact, I created a userbox saying it. Exceptions apply of course (people trying to spread their belief, or a belief that could be harmful to others), but we generally have no right to tell people what religion to follow. One reason why I am not Dawkin's biggest fan. --"CURtalk 21:14, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- CUR, I think why I like the article is that it says 1) there is no such thing as an atheist fundi, 2) here's why people use it. Isn't that a good thing to have as a resource for people combating the RightWingConservativeFundiMonobeing? --EnAttendantGodot 21:16, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- Perhaps. But I think that some atheists can be exceedingly obnoxious. I think we need an article on that sort of thing. --"CURtalk 21:17, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- We already have antitheism & atheist thumper covering "that sort of thing", both linked from here. My point with this one was not to duplicate them too much, but to discuss the use of a fairly misleading term. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:20, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- We also have Achristian. ħuman
21:32, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- We also have Achristian. ħuman
- (ANOTHER EC GRR) Well, I don't have a huge problem with this article, I just wanted to say that it seems kind of petty to me, because I think the term isn't that strange. Yeh, technically it's wrong, but practically it makes sense, since some militant atheists act just like they are fundamentalists of their religion (yehyeh, atheism isn't a religion, but some people, including atheists, act like it is). Sooo in short, this seems to me like pointing out that someone made a common typo: true but unnecessary. PS, I just noticed that EnAttendantGodot made the same joke as me when I had the previous EC. How peculiar. --GTac 21:25, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- We already have antitheism & atheist thumper covering "that sort of thing", both linked from here. My point with this one was not to duplicate them too much, but to discuss the use of a fairly misleading term. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
- Perhaps. But I think that some atheists can be exceedingly obnoxious. I think we need an article on that sort of thing. --"CURtalk 21:17, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- CUR, I think why I like the article is that it says 1) there is no such thing as an atheist fundi, 2) here's why people use it. Isn't that a good thing to have as a resource for people combating the RightWingConservativeFundiMonobeing? --EnAttendantGodot 21:16, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- Ah, me to. I hate people who try to tell other people what to believe- in fact, I created a userbox saying it. Exceptions apply of course (people trying to spread their belief, or a belief that could be harmful to others), but we generally have no right to tell people what religion to follow. One reason why I am not Dawkin's biggest fan. --"CURtalk 21:14, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- Don't we have better things then to worry about semantics? It seems like we are dismissing a valid argument on the grounds that the wording is off, which is a Conservapedia thing to do. I suggest that the article be modified to reflect that the argument can be valid even if the wording is awful. --"CURtalk 21:01, 16 February 2009 (EST)
Er, shouldn't it be "fundamentalist atheism"?
Radioactive Misanthrope 04:06, 17 February 2009 (EST)
- What's the difference? ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:15, 18 February 2009 (EST)
Contents |
[edit] "Essentially meaningless"?
I suggest that basing arguments on the premise that "atheism is not a religion" is not a good idea, since that premise is disputed, and "atheist fundamentalism" has some meaning to those who believe that atheism is a religion. At least some people at Conservapedia, for starters, regard atheism as a religion. So do the U.S. courts. So do I.
ListenerXTalkerX 03:11, 17 February 2009 (EST)
- U.S. courts have practical reasons for sometimes classing atheism as a religion (e.g. protecting First Ammendment rights) but certainly wouldn't ever class somebody as an atheist fundamentalist. Your argument relies on an arcane definition of religion. Even if we accept that definition, atheism still only involves one belief (or disbelief) and no specific practices or moral guidelines - so what would be the difference between an atheist fundamentalist and any other atheist? ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:15, 18 February 2009 (EST)
- The atheist fundamentalist would advocate crushing the opposition by force. That is not part of atheism, but then again Christian fundamentalists take on some beliefs that are not part of Christianity, either.
ListenerXTalkerX 11:36, 18 February 2009 (EST)
- The atheist fundamentalist would advocate crushing the opposition by force. That is not part of atheism, but then again Christian fundamentalists take on some beliefs that are not part of Christianity, either.
[edit] ...
Are you serious? I mean, you're missing the point on so many levels. Okay then, atheism isn't a religion. So? That's not the point of the term. "Atheist fundamentalist" means that you shove your lack of religion down Christians' throats the same way fundies shove their religion down non-Christians' throats. And you do. I mean, holy shit are you really focusing this page on the fact you aren't literal fundies instead of the symbolic use of the term? I mean, you aren't exactly symbolism-free either.Lilfut (talk)
- "Atheist fundamentalist" is a derogatory word with no real meaning. We don't really have fundamentals. Maybe you're looking for Militant atheism? — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 23:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Oh ho ho. That slaps me on the knee. My point is, the term is more symbolic than literal.
Lilfut (talk)
- Most atheists, Dawkins, Hitchens excepted of course, don't shove our lack of any belief in the stupid concept of god down anyone's throat until they shove their contrary belief down ours. I have just eaten
& stiltontalk 00:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Most atheists, Dawkins, Hitchens excepted of course, don't shove our lack of any belief in the stupid concept of god down anyone's throat until they shove their contrary belief down ours. I have just eaten
- There is one fundamental of being an atheist, and that can easily be seen by looking at the name. "Atheism" simply means "no gods" or "godless". Taken at the "literalist" and "dogmatic" interpretation, it can be read as "no gods for anyone ever under any condition". Anyone adhering to that kind of philosophy could easily fall into the same behaviors as religious fundamentalists.
- If there is a fundamental, it can be followed.
- If a fundamental is strictly adhered to, the follower is a fundamentalist.
- "No gods" is a fundamental in atheism.
- Therefore, fundamental atheists are possible.
- QED. 76.106.251.87 (talk) 01:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Oh ho ho. That slaps me on the knee. My point is, the term is more symbolic than literal.
[edit] Bon droppings
Cut from article:
"Whoever wrote this preceeding paragraph needs to change it, because the reason you give for calling atheists fundamentalists cannot in fact be a reason why something is not true. Even if the term were "only" used for that, it does nothing to address whether or not it's true that some atheists are fundamentalists. The fact that "rational wiki" has entries worded so UNRATIONALLY is quite painful to those of us that are capable of actual rational thought. Whoever wrote that paragraph is a complete dunce, who couldnt argue his way out of a wet paper bag."
ħuman
01:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Definitions.
The way it was explained to me is that atheism is belief that gods are not real, and not just a simple lack of belief in them. "I do not believe in X" and "I believe X is not real" have two different meanings, and there are other problems associated with the lack of belief definition, most noteworthy is it includes dogs, and after all, don't all dogs go to heaven? Cheshire (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- The two definitions are "weak" and "strong" atheist. The first you're talking about "weak" atheism; a mere lack of belief. The second you're talking about "strong" atheism, where one feels there's suitable evidence to assert that there probably isn't a God or gods, rather than just assert a lack of belief in them. However, you are right that defining it by a "lack" of belief proves problematic, hence the development of other terms like "bright" or "freethinking" all the way to Thunderf00t's favoured "PEARLism".
pathetic 20:25, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- Most atheists with whom I have had contact use the evidence question. There is no evidence for gods therefore they do not believe in them. That's certainly Dawkins' position. This is sort of like the the so called "weak atheist" position. The thing is that it's not really necessary to provide arguments against the existence of a being if no real arguments have been provided for its existence.--BobSpring is sprung! 20:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Atheism isn't "belief that gods are not real", it is "a lack of belief in them" (simple or otherwise). The a- prefix is a negation, as in agnosticism, anarchy, any of these examples. The strong/weak atheism dichotomy is really just a philosophical construct, mostly applied in flimsy criticisms of atheism. The God issue is the only one where people are called on to make this distinction. Those who do not believe in the existence of Santa Claus are not expected to define their non-belief as a strong belief in His non-existence or a weak position of assuming He does not exist until any evidence to the contrary should come to life. Not believing in something is enough. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:36, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it's a philosophical construct. But that's almost the point, the term "atheist" as it stands and as its etymology suggests is practically useless - why do you define something based on what it isn't? Hence you get the strong/weak definitions appearing amongst others. And while it's true that no one is ever called in practice to make the strong/weak definition for the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus or Befriciastein, the god I just made up off the top of my head by jamming on the keyboard, it doesn't mean that, in principle, the distinction does not exist. But, we have to remember the context of atheism is the ubiquity of religion, it's almost normative behavior to be a believer. So any discussion about the definitions and semantics of the terms needs to keep this in mind. If we were in a world where only 1-2% of people believed in higher powers or creator gods, then we'd be having a completely different discussion.
pathetic 22:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the strong/weak distinction is necessary when talking to theists; but from the point of view of atheists themselves it's pretty irrelevant?
- If so, then I'm not sure that I agree. I don't believe in Santa, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Satan, Vishnu, God, ghosts and fairies for exactly the same reason - there is no evidence they exist. Yet you seem to be suggesting that, when talking about one specific mythological being, I have to define myself as a "strong" or "weak" disbeliever. The result of this is to implicitly accept that one of these non-beings is unique in some way. I'm not buying it.--BobSpring is sprung! 06:17, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure you are understanding, you don't have to define as anything, I'm just saying people have generated these terms and made a bigger deal of it because of the ubiquity of religion. As I said, it's almost the case that atheism is non-normative. It's analoguous to feminism, which only makes sense the context of male-dominated history, otherwise it's pointless. In an historically gender equal society we wouldn't have feminism or any debates about it, similarly in an overall atheistic society we probably wouldn't even have a term for "atheism" because that would be like describing a normative person and "not non-normative" and wouldn't make sense. So you have to keep in mind that everything we do when discussing the subject only makes sense with the background of religious dominance in the world. You can apply the same reasoning to God as to the Tooth Fairy all you like, but you can't deny that religion is big and thus changes the "rules" slightly; we don't have Santa following cults or numerous books espousing reasons why the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. The belief/non-belief dynamic is a lot more complex than "oh I just don't believe it" (do you imply it by lack of evidence only, do you think there is positive evidence of non-existence etc.), but we only see it in the case of God because that's the big subject and there is passion on both sides. You could, in principle, get strong or weak Tooth Fairy deniers but we generally don't see it because the Tooth Fairy isn't this big overarching belief system that fills 90% of the brains on the planet and not believing in it is just The Way It's Done, rather than a non-normative response to an ubiquitous belief system. Anyway, that's the point expressed about 12 different ways so far.
pathetic 15:24, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, but looking at my list above, you do have people who believe in Satan, Vishnu and ghosts. Weaseloid makes a good point below that strong/weak is in reality insufficiently clear. (I may be somewhat more sceptical than him about everything I think, but would obviously be convinced by evidence.) Dawkins, if I remember correctly outlines a seven point scale starting from (1.) utter belief to (7.) utter denial. I think it's more useful than strong/weak.--BobSpring is sprung! 19:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- The belief/non-belief dynamic is indeed a lot more complex than "oh I just don't believe it", which is exactly why the strong/weak dichotomy is a useless straw man distinction. At best there is a continuum of how strong atheists' convictions are. E.g. I would probably be somewhere on the middle of it & don't feel comfortable identifying as either a "strong atheist" or "weak atheist" - I feel relatively certain that there is no god, but if I encountered any compelling evidence, I would of course consider it (on an extraordinary claims/extraordinary proof basis), though I see this situation as very unlikely to occur. My conviction that Santa Claus & the Tooth Fairy do not exist is even stronger - I'm damn sure they don't exist & it would take a hell of a lot to convince me otherwise. My convictions about ghosts, maybe a tiny bit weaker - I don't believe in them, but keep an open mind to some extent (& a good horror movie can have me almost believing in them for an evening). The same continuum goes for non-paranormal things. I don't believe that real-life alien encounters have occurred, but find the concept more plausible than either ghosts or gods. I don't buy into the 9/11 Truther conspiracies, but certainly could be convinced if some real evidence came to light. Etc. etc. etc. Any instance of not believing something cannot be easily classified as either a weak or strong non-belief. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- But two medium sized brushes are better than one huge brush surely? It's just a model or a construct to define two sub groups, you can divide it further than that if you want.
pathetic 07:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't accept that there are two subgroups. That distinction really isn't there in real life. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 17:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- There are very few things that "are there in real life", though. Some people use weak/strong to define different ways of not believing (simply "not believing that it exists" and "believing that it doesn't exist", a subtle difference that some people use), Bob above points out Dawkins Kinsey-esque scale, which I do agree is slightly more "useful", but again, you could argue that a linear scale with just seven points isn't subtle enough, where is the distinction between what would change my belief, a measure of the belief's "elasticity", for instance? Many people view the inflexible and linear left/right political spectrum as too restricting so started to introduce different dimensions. But again, these things don't exist in real life either, as the views of an indiviudal are always going to be more complex, nuanced and varied with related topics (you can be an atheist and believe in psychic powers and ghosts, for example). But these are models and ways of distilling the beliefs of many into simple or more complex models depending on your purposes - I think the weak/strong distinction works like this. But anyway, my entire point is that we only go into this much depth and clarity with the God/atheism question because of the ubiquity of religion, and atheism acting as a response to that (hence why I think you can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts even though fundamentalist atheists say you must reject all supernatural. No, this isn't the case. We have good working definitions of God and gods supplied by the hundreds of religions around the world and this specifically is what atheism rejects, because if these religions didn't exist, neither would the concept of, or the term for, atheism.).
pathetic 08:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- There are very few things that "are there in real life", though. Some people use weak/strong to define different ways of not believing (simply "not believing that it exists" and "believing that it doesn't exist", a subtle difference that some people use), Bob above points out Dawkins Kinsey-esque scale, which I do agree is slightly more "useful", but again, you could argue that a linear scale with just seven points isn't subtle enough, where is the distinction between what would change my belief, a measure of the belief's "elasticity", for instance? Many people view the inflexible and linear left/right political spectrum as too restricting so started to introduce different dimensions. But again, these things don't exist in real life either, as the views of an indiviudal are always going to be more complex, nuanced and varied with related topics (you can be an atheist and believe in psychic powers and ghosts, for example). But these are models and ways of distilling the beliefs of many into simple or more complex models depending on your purposes - I think the weak/strong distinction works like this. But anyway, my entire point is that we only go into this much depth and clarity with the God/atheism question because of the ubiquity of religion, and atheism acting as a response to that (hence why I think you can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts even though fundamentalist atheists say you must reject all supernatural. No, this isn't the case. We have good working definitions of God and gods supplied by the hundreds of religions around the world and this specifically is what atheism rejects, because if these religions didn't exist, neither would the concept of, or the term for, atheism.).
- I don't accept that there are two subgroups. That distinction really isn't there in real life. Wéáśéĺóíď
- But two medium sized brushes are better than one huge brush surely? It's just a model or a construct to define two sub groups, you can divide it further than that if you want.
- I'm not sure you are understanding, you don't have to define as anything, I'm just saying people have generated these terms and made a bigger deal of it because of the ubiquity of religion. As I said, it's almost the case that atheism is non-normative. It's analoguous to feminism, which only makes sense the context of male-dominated history, otherwise it's pointless. In an historically gender equal society we wouldn't have feminism or any debates about it, similarly in an overall atheistic society we probably wouldn't even have a term for "atheism" because that would be like describing a normative person and "not non-normative" and wouldn't make sense. So you have to keep in mind that everything we do when discussing the subject only makes sense with the background of religious dominance in the world. You can apply the same reasoning to God as to the Tooth Fairy all you like, but you can't deny that religion is big and thus changes the "rules" slightly; we don't have Santa following cults or numerous books espousing reasons why the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. The belief/non-belief dynamic is a lot more complex than "oh I just don't believe it" (do you imply it by lack of evidence only, do you think there is positive evidence of non-existence etc.), but we only see it in the case of God because that's the big subject and there is passion on both sides. You could, in principle, get strong or weak Tooth Fairy deniers but we generally don't see it because the Tooth Fairy isn't this big overarching belief system that fills 90% of the brains on the planet and not believing in it is just The Way It's Done, rather than a non-normative response to an ubiquitous belief system. Anyway, that's the point expressed about 12 different ways so far.
[edit] I'm "Strong"
Reason: If the concept of god did not exist, is there anything that would cause you to invent it? As far as I can see there isn't. 19:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- ignorance (I don't know where we came from) + curiosity (Where did we come from?) + laziness (This is making my head hurt, I just need an answer) = god, or something like that. The concept of god is pervasive throughout independent civilizations across human history. Historically, if the concept of god didn't exist, someone made it, and we've seen this time and again. If there has ever been a civilization which has not considered a higher power, I would like to see it. 207.67.17.45 (talk) 19:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, but now we've got
as muchmore of an answer than any religious claptrap ever gave us. Ain't science wonderful? 19:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. But I still don't believe any society (or individual, for that matter) has left the possibility of god unconsidered. 207.67.17.45 (talk) 19:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Never said they had, but, with the benefit of hindsight, is that any reason to consider it now? 19:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- So, if the concept of god did not yet exist, would there be any reason for you to arrive at considering it? I'd say yes. The concept is a logical consequence of curiosity about origins. 207.67.17.45 (talk) 20:04, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not really. It utterly fails Occam's Razor, for instance, without which I would feel safe shaving. ħuman
07:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not really. It utterly fails Occam's Razor, for instance, without which I would feel safe shaving. ħuman
- So, if the concept of god did not yet exist, would there be any reason for you to arrive at considering it? I'd say yes. The concept is a logical consequence of curiosity about origins. 207.67.17.45 (talk) 20:04, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Never said they had, but, with the benefit of hindsight, is that any reason to consider it now? 19:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. But I still don't believe any society (or individual, for that matter) has left the possibility of god unconsidered. 207.67.17.45 (talk) 19:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, but now we've got
[edit] Wikipedia's worst
This must be the most biassed article anywhere in wikipedia. It has absolutely no purpose except to push a prejudiced viewpoint. Froma a complete agnostic when it comes to gods or anything to with them, including their existence and non-existence. — Unsigned, by: 88.207.238.71 / talk / contribs
- Are you shore you are in the right place, this is not wikipedia? - π 13:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- You know, this is why we need to change the default skin, so morons don't confuse RW with WP. You'd think the big brain in the corner was enough, but obviously not.
pathetic 15:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nice. And I say change nothing. Pandering to idiots is a never-ending struggle. Quaru (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- As the Facebook login incident demonstrated, even a different layout and colour scheme won't discourage clueless people from making assumptions.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is the worst article I've ever read on Prodigy. Prodigy's admins should remove it immediately! ħuman
18:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This must be the absolute worst internet porn I have ever seen. There is no nudity and no purpose except to push a prejudiced viewpoint. I simply cannot work with this material. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This must be the absolute worst internet porn I have ever seen. There is no nudity and no purpose except to push a prejudiced viewpoint. I simply cannot work with this material. Wéáśéĺóíď
- Wait a sec, are you trying to tell me that wasn't a RationalWiki article? I thought someone had just put that huge red banner there using DISPLAYTITLE.
pathetic 20:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is the worst article I've ever read on Prodigy. Prodigy's admins should remove it immediately! ħuman
- As the Facebook login incident demonstrated, even a different layout and colour scheme won't discourage clueless people from making assumptions.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nice. And I say change nothing. Pandering to idiots is a never-ending struggle. Quaru (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- You know, this is why we need to change the default skin, so morons don't confuse RW with WP. You'd think the big brain in the corner was enough, but obviously not.
[edit] Extremist Atheism article?
If there's one thing the "GOD IS SO GOOD!!!" YouTube kerfuffle has taught me, it's that "extreme/fanatical/zealous atheism" exists, pound-for-pound with "extreme/fanatical/zealous theism". However, this article (Atheist fundamentalism) is really only about the idea that "fundamentalism" isn't an accurate term to use with "atheism" because there's no idea that an atheist can adhere to fundamentally. But it's still obvious that many atheists (no matter how misguided they are) lean more towards the "I believe that God doesn't exist" to such a STRONG degree that they are absolutely willing to force their views down other people's throats--and more than just write books about it. Unless people just want to deny that extreme atheists exist? But I'm sure that's not the case... -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 08:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Or perhaps not. Just recognized that you're more of the guys-sitting-in-the-corner-of-the-pub-yelling-BULLSHIT!-than-an-honest-encyclopedia. Kinda defeats the purpose of being "rational", but then again, it's not my site. Cheers! -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 08:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I hope that little rant has made you feel all betterer. :) MtDPinko Scum 10:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'll just go strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up a tube station in the name of Richard Dawkins, then.
pathetic 11:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've just been out knocking on doors handing out my atheist tracts and forcing people to read them. It's quite hard work. Maybe writing books that people will chose to read out of interest (or not) isn't such a bad way to do things.--BobSpring is sprung! 12:18, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- To be fair, I'm an atheist too. However, I do have trouble reconciling with some elements within the atheism movement which uses language similar to the religious folk I sought to escape from. Tactics, on the other hand, are a different issue; maybe atheists are not acting to the degree of handing out Chick Tracts or killing others for the sake of their beliefs, but I can't help but feel that many atheists are guilty of use the whole "I'm smart about these things, so I must be smart about EVERY thing" and/or "I'm not acting out of anger, malice or ignorance, so therefore I'm more right" fallacies (I'll be damned if I can't remember what those fallacies was named exactly). Reading some of the comments on the top of the page makes me believe that other people here recognize this too. Of course, if you think I'm wrong about everything, I certainly wouldn't mind a little enlightening. :) -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 21:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that what your are talking about are common human failings. Atheists are no more or less likely to be prone to these than any other group of people. --BobSpring is sprung! 11:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, how does one separate a militant theist who is seen by certain--perhaps misguided--people as the exact reason why religion is absolutely wrong and detrimental to human society, versus a militant atheist who is seen by certain people as someone who is simply guilty of being human with very human flaws? Is the militant theist also guilty of being human and thus they are not representative of religion (particularly the idea that religion is a bad thing), or is the militant atheist an example of the extent that atheism can take someone and is thus a perfect example of how atheism is "wrong"? It can't be both... right? -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 03:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that I'm not sure that I fully understand your point. Though I think your may be conflating "religion" and "god". There is no doubt in my mind that religions do many strange and some bad things. But that does not mean that gods do not exist. All religions could be completely wrong and evil and god could still exist. Or god might not exist and all religions might be the best thing since sliced bread. The two things are not dependent on each other though, for some reason, they seem to be combined an a rather flawed argument - "As religion is bad then I don't believe in god". It's really a non sequitur.--BobSpring is sprung! 23:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, how does one separate a militant theist who is seen by certain--perhaps misguided--people as the exact reason why religion is absolutely wrong and detrimental to human society, versus a militant atheist who is seen by certain people as someone who is simply guilty of being human with very human flaws? Is the militant theist also guilty of being human and thus they are not representative of religion (particularly the idea that religion is a bad thing), or is the militant atheist an example of the extent that atheism can take someone and is thus a perfect example of how atheism is "wrong"? It can't be both... right? -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 03:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that what your are talking about are common human failings. Atheists are no more or less likely to be prone to these than any other group of people. --BobSpring is sprung! 11:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- To be fair, I'm an atheist too. However, I do have trouble reconciling with some elements within the atheism movement which uses language similar to the religious folk I sought to escape from. Tactics, on the other hand, are a different issue; maybe atheists are not acting to the degree of handing out Chick Tracts or killing others for the sake of their beliefs, but I can't help but feel that many atheists are guilty of use the whole "I'm smart about these things, so I must be smart about EVERY thing" and/or "I'm not acting out of anger, malice or ignorance, so therefore I'm more right" fallacies (I'll be damned if I can't remember what those fallacies was named exactly). Reading some of the comments on the top of the page makes me believe that other people here recognize this too. Of course, if you think I'm wrong about everything, I certainly wouldn't mind a little enlightening. :) -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 21:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've just been out knocking on doors handing out my atheist tracts and forcing people to read them. It's quite hard work. Maybe writing books that people will chose to read out of interest (or not) isn't such a bad way to do things.--BobSpring is sprung! 12:18, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'll just go strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up a tube station in the name of Richard Dawkins, then.
- I hope that little rant has made you feel all betterer. :) MtDPinko Scum 10:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I think 66...62 is touching on a meaningful point, but not entirely going into it, that this article doesn't seem to deal with the definition of "fundamentalist". Under the original definition--a Christian movement believing in literal interpretation of the Bible--"atheist fundamentalist" is obviously absurd. 'Makes for a pretty empty article. However, the meaning has degenerated past "guys who kill and blow stuff up" to a point of name-calling. Specifically, anyone with views too extreme for the speaker. By that definition, there's an atheist fundamentalist around every corner. 69.196.131.220 (talk) 03:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Communists
I don't think any of the new atheists can fairly be called "atheist fundamentalists". But I think a lot of the communists could be called that. Although the new atheists strenuously disagree with religion, they don't propose unequal rights for religious people - such as, banning religious people from holding jobs, blowing up churches, killing priests/ministers, censoring religious books, etc. But, historically, the communists in the Soviet Union and other countries did all these things. So, although I don't think New Atheism is a form of atheist fundamentalism, I think a lot of Soviet Atheism was. One of the distinguishing features of Christian or Islamic fundamentalists, is not just their beliefs, but also their opposition to the rights of others. New Atheists don't fit the bill, but Soviet Atheism surely did... --Zack Martin
11:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that I would agree. Also those communists were atheists as a consequence of a positive belief - the "self-evident truths" of communism. So they actually has some views to be fundamentalist about. But then I'm not sure if that makes them "fundamentalist athiests" or "fundamentalist communists".--BobSpring is sprung! 12:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Or, more accurately, fundamentalist Marxists. It's the bit about religion being the opium of the masses that gets jumped upon. Jack Hughes (talk) 14:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there we go. There have exists all-too-human atheists who hate religion to the degree that they would use their powers to eliminate those who disagree with them. Obviously no atheist today is preaching intolerance towards theists... or are they? -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- The strong atheists and some antitheists would qualify, I think. However, it seems like strong atheism is mostly associated with political philosophies like communism or Objectivism (though Objectivists don't advocate the elimination of religion by force). Really the only one I can think of that would qualify as not subscribing to atheism as part of a political philosophy that requires it is Hitch, especially since he thinks Iraq was worth it to take out the Muslim fundies. Otherwise, I'm drawing a blank. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I may have misunderstood. Are you saying that strong atheists hate religion and would eliminate it by force?--BobSpring is sprung! 11:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- As I've mused at great tl;dr length on the atheist page, you cannot get a stronger form of atheism: "I don't believe in God". It's all relating to your positive attitudes towards it, and the 'strong'/'weak' and the 'implicit'/'explicit' distinctions relate to these attitudes toward the belief, not the supposed "strength" of the belief (e.g., living as if there is no god, actively denying god, and so on). It's wrong to confuse "strong atheism" with "antitheism" as those are different things. You can say that some atheists are anti-theists, and that most anti-theists are atheists. But you cannot say that "more atheist" is a real thing, yet alone say that this equates to anti-theism.
pathetic 15:22, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- "I may have misunderstood. Are you saying that strong atheists hate religion and would eliminate it by force?" No, just that I'd file them under "atheist fundamentalist" because they claim definitively that no god exists or that they've "disproven" god. But when strong atheism overlaps with political ideologies like communism, they would use force. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- When I was an atheist, it was not for political reasons. As for the Reds: (1) their anti-religion campaigns were aimed at opponents of communism rather than at theists; (2) the only reason we do not call communism a religion is a rather trivial semantic issue, viz., to date, Reds have merely canonized Marx rather than deifying him.
ListenerXTalkerX 04:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, then what's to say that someone like George W. Bush didn't just aim his religious campaigns at American's/freedom's/HIS opponents ONLY because they were his opponents and not because they were actually non-Dubya's-brand-of-Christians? It's quite clear to me that Leaders are guilty of both just using (ir)religion to push their completely non-religious agendas, as well as using (ir)religion to push their completely (ir)religious agendas, and thus use force in order to ensure their victory over their opponents. -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- If you intended that for a reductio ad absurdum, it is not working, since most critics of Bush argue that he targeted people because they were sitting on oil that his cronies wanted, rather than for any religious reasons.
ListenerXTalkerX 05:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- If you intended that for a reductio ad absurdum, it is not working, since most critics of Bush argue that he targeted people because they were sitting on oil that his cronies wanted, rather than for any religious reasons.
- Well, then what's to say that someone like George W. Bush didn't just aim his religious campaigns at American's/freedom's/HIS opponents ONLY because they were his opponents and not because they were actually non-Dubya's-brand-of-Christians? It's quite clear to me that Leaders are guilty of both just using (ir)religion to push their completely non-religious agendas, as well as using (ir)religion to push their completely (ir)religious agendas, and thus use force in order to ensure their victory over their opponents. -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- When I was an atheist, it was not for political reasons. As for the Reds: (1) their anti-religion campaigns were aimed at opponents of communism rather than at theists; (2) the only reason we do not call communism a religion is a rather trivial semantic issue, viz., to date, Reds have merely canonized Marx rather than deifying him.
- ADK: That's a good point about the difference between "strong atheism" and "anti-theism", I didn't think of it like that. I mean, I'd say I'm a week atheist, as I simply don't have any proof of the existence of (a) God, and that my (weak) atheism doesn't affect whether or not I have some anti-theist points of view (as I still felt this way when I was a theist). So wait, would you say there is a difference between "I don't believe in god(s)" versus "I believe that there is NO god"?
- I guess then, maybe this article could address the fact that there is some basis in the concept of "atheist fundamentalism", but that the term "anti-theism" covers this concept better than "atheist fundamentalism"... considering that many (weak and strong) atheists are guilty of having extremely strong anti-theist points of view, at least more than neutral-theist atheist or even pro-theist atheist (those who don't believe in god(s) but still find value in the rituals, teachings and culture found in religions) points of views... and CERTAINLY more atheists are anti-theist than not? But that's just what I think. :) In any case, I do certainly appreciate these conversations, as I have found them to be quite enlightening! -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Although subtle, nuanced and very small, I would definitely say there is a difference between "I don't believe in god(s)" and "I believe there is(are) no god(s)". The former is merely the absence of belief and, because the ubiquity of religion necessitates it, highlighting it as a position. The phrase "I don't believe in god(s)" is also placed firmly within the context of religion - you acknowledge the beliefs but note that you do not follow them. On the other hand, the latter phrase puts forward a more concrete hypothesis, and is phrased in a more positive sense. A firm statement that there are no gods is somewhat independent of existing religious beliefs - you're saying that no gods exist, regardless if people have thought them up yet or not. This is important because you can't really say for sure that you reject a religion if it hasn't been conceived yet (otherwise you're taking a very big liberty in reason). Again, this distinction is subtle but I think it's very significant. As atheism only really makes sense in the context of existing religions, it makes this so-called "weak" view (that I simply don't believe, rather than I believe it isn't true) more justifiable as it relates it back to existing religions.
pathetic 17:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Although subtle, nuanced and very small, I would definitely say there is a difference between "I don't believe in god(s)" and "I believe there is(are) no god(s)". The former is merely the absence of belief and, because the ubiquity of religion necessitates it, highlighting it as a position. The phrase "I don't believe in god(s)" is also placed firmly within the context of religion - you acknowledge the beliefs but note that you do not follow them. On the other hand, the latter phrase puts forward a more concrete hypothesis, and is phrased in a more positive sense. A firm statement that there are no gods is somewhat independent of existing religious beliefs - you're saying that no gods exist, regardless if people have thought them up yet or not. This is important because you can't really say for sure that you reject a religion if it hasn't been conceived yet (otherwise you're taking a very big liberty in reason). Again, this distinction is subtle but I think it's very significant. As atheism only really makes sense in the context of existing religions, it makes this so-called "weak" view (that I simply don't believe, rather than I believe it isn't true) more justifiable as it relates it back to existing religions.
- "I may have misunderstood. Are you saying that strong atheists hate religion and would eliminate it by force?" No, just that I'd file them under "atheist fundamentalist" because they claim definitively that no god exists or that they've "disproven" god. But when strong atheism overlaps with political ideologies like communism, they would use force. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- As I've mused at great tl;dr length on the atheist page, you cannot get a stronger form of atheism: "I don't believe in God". It's all relating to your positive attitudes towards it, and the 'strong'/'weak' and the 'implicit'/'explicit' distinctions relate to these attitudes toward the belief, not the supposed "strength" of the belief (e.g., living as if there is no god, actively denying god, and so on). It's wrong to confuse "strong atheism" with "antitheism" as those are different things. You can say that some atheists are anti-theists, and that most anti-theists are atheists. But you cannot say that "more atheist" is a real thing, yet alone say that this equates to anti-theism.
- I may have misunderstood. Are you saying that strong atheists hate religion and would eliminate it by force?--BobSpring is sprung! 11:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- The strong atheists and some antitheists would qualify, I think. However, it seems like strong atheism is mostly associated with political philosophies like communism or Objectivism (though Objectivists don't advocate the elimination of religion by force). Really the only one I can think of that would qualify as not subscribing to atheism as part of a political philosophy that requires it is Hitch, especially since he thinks Iraq was worth it to take out the Muslim fundies. Otherwise, I'm drawing a blank. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there we go. There have exists all-too-human atheists who hate religion to the degree that they would use their powers to eliminate those who disagree with them. Obviously no atheist today is preaching intolerance towards theists... or are they? -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Or, more accurately, fundamentalist Marxists. It's the bit about religion being the opium of the masses that gets jumped upon. Jack Hughes (talk) 14:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- BOB: I have absolutely no solid evidence that strong atheists and/or anti-theists are actively pursuing an agenda to destroy theism/religion through force. Destroying religion through intelligent and rational conversation, perhaps, but that's not through the use of "force". But that doesn't mean I haven't observed rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth atheists, who use language which is too uncomfortably similar to the language that militarized theists use when discussing people who don't share their beliefs. For example, in that "GOD IS SO GOOD!!!" YouTube video, I made some "hey theists and atheists, let's just agree on being humanists!!" However, there was an atheist poster--which was VERY quick to assume stuff about me, btw--who said to me:
- "You worship an evil, murderous, savage, psychotic god you fucking bitch. Get the fuck out of here with your fairy tale bullshit you ignorant fuck. Your bible is plagiarized from Sumerian text and other civilizations that existed before your phony bullshit jesus [sic]"
- Now this is the kind of language that made me leave religion, but I've been seeing this same shit spewing out of the mouths of a fair share of atheists. Maybe I was naive to assume that atheism would be an escape from people like this guy. .... ANNNYyyyways, perhaps atheists who talk like this guy truly DON'T have any intention of destroying theism/religion through force and are instead simply content at just SOUNDING completely irrational. But still, when I hear atheists talk like that, I have a REALLY hard time trying to believe that destroying religion by force ISN'T on their mind, and would do so, given the chance... if only because the track records of other groups of people with a similar tone aren't all that clean, DESPITE their current unwillingness to rape and pillage. -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- It's possible that you misunderstand what the word "strong" means in the term "strong atheist". It does not refer to the vehemence of their views. For example Dawkins is not a "strong atheist", as he allows for the minute theoretical possibility that a god or gods might exist. --BobSpring is sprung! 07:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Secondly, you are expecting too much from atheism. You can be an atheist and also be a mass-murderer, a priest, a politician or a bully. You could also not believe in bigfoot and be any of those things. Having said that, many athiests are rational, secular humanists and we would obviously hold them to a higher standard. But simply being an atheist tells people nothing about how you will behave. --BobSpring is sprung! 07:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. If we're going to use YouTube comments, I'm going to have to call nutpicking. As Bob says, atheism is no guarantee of, well, sanity. However, the movement here in the US seems to me driven by secularism, the same sentiment expressed so famously in Jefferson's correspondence with the Danbury Baptists. If the rights of the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. can be taken away, so can ours. Show me a major atheist organization in the US advocating for the forceful abolition of religion and I'll write an RW article tearing it apart. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 08:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Actually I'm just looking at something else from our IP:
- Now this is the kind of language that made me leave religion ...
- I don't think that's the best of reasons for giving up on religion. I would have thought the fact that religious beliefs are weird would be a better reason then some religious people are weird. You can find some weird people in every group - even here.--BobSpring is sprung! 17:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. Would that be a specific case of argument from adverse consequences? Specifically, the poor attitudes of some adherents is an adverse consequence of adherence. Thus it cannot be used as an argument against holding that belief.
pathetic 17:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. Would that be a specific case of argument from adverse consequences? Specifically, the poor attitudes of some adherents is an adverse consequence of adherence. Thus it cannot be used as an argument against holding that belief.
- Actually I'm just looking at something else from our IP:
- Agreed. If we're going to use YouTube comments, I'm going to have to call nutpicking. As Bob says, atheism is no guarantee of, well, sanity. However, the movement here in the US seems to me driven by secularism, the same sentiment expressed so famously in Jefferson's correspondence with the Danbury Baptists. If the rights of the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. can be taken away, so can ours. Show me a major atheist organization in the US advocating for the forceful abolition of religion and I'll write an RW article tearing it apart. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 08:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Secondly, you are expecting too much from atheism. You can be an atheist and also be a mass-murderer, a priest, a politician or a bully. You could also not believe in bigfoot and be any of those things. Having said that, many athiests are rational, secular humanists and we would obviously hold them to a higher standard. But simply being an atheist tells people nothing about how you will behave. --BobSpring is sprung! 07:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- It's possible that you misunderstand what the word "strong" means in the term "strong atheist". It does not refer to the vehemence of their views. For example Dawkins is not a "strong atheist", as he allows for the minute theoretical possibility that a god or gods might exist. --BobSpring is sprung! 07:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- BOB: I have absolutely no solid evidence that strong atheists and/or anti-theists are actively pursuing an agenda to destroy theism/religion through force. Destroying religion through intelligent and rational conversation, perhaps, but that's not through the use of "force". But that doesn't mean I haven't observed rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth atheists, who use language which is too uncomfortably similar to the language that militarized theists use when discussing people who don't share their beliefs. For example, in that "GOD IS SO GOOD!!!" YouTube video, I made some "hey theists and atheists, let's just agree on being humanists!!" However, there was an atheist poster--which was VERY quick to assume stuff about me, btw--who said to me:
[edit] Curious about "as atheism doesn't have a system of beliefs that one can fundamentally adhere to"
I've heard the argument of "atheism is a belief just like not collecting stamps is a hobby (as in, it isn't)"... but I've also heard the counterargument that "while not collecting stamps isn't a hobby, telling everyone how much you don't collect stamps, and how NOT collecting stamps is an regular part of your life, may be one". Or, to put it in another way, there's a difference between "I don't believe in God" and "I believe that God doesn't exist". With this in mind, wouldn't the later position form the basis of "a system of beliefs that one can fundamentally adhere to", since it clearly IS a specific belief in God's nonexistence, as opposed to a non-belief in God's existence?
If, of course, someone would argue "NO atheist is of the type 'I believe that God doesn't exist"... aside from the fact that you don't hear people organizing along the lines of their non-stamp-collecting-ism (and THEN splitting themselves into New Nonstampcollectionists or Nonstampcollectionist+ sides), there are many people who do consider themselves atheists who outright accept the position of "I believe that God doesn't exist". Even if they are in the minority, wouldn't that mean that there ARE some atheists who have a "system of beliefs that one can [eventually] fundamentally adhere to"? Or would their belief in God's nonexistence imply that they are technically no longer an "atheist" but something else?
I'm sure these are questions people have already worked out, and thus I'm sure there's a reason why it isn't included in the article. I'm also well aware Dawkins clearly stated that saying "God doesn't exist" would be a Faith-based position and thus prefers to say "God almost certainly doesn't exist", and thus wouldn't be someone who would--technically--be considered a Atheist fundamentalist because he doesn't claim a belief. But that's the thing; apparently not everyone who considers themselves to be an atheist follows this position.
I'm ultimately not claiming that atheist fundamentalism exists, just that some atheists DO have a system of belief(s) that they could fundamentally adhere to. Even if it's just one belief... two if the other belief is "all faith-based ideas are counter to scientific thought and should be criticized" (as opposed to the position of Accommodationism). What's your thought? -- 71.141.113.91 (talk) 09:27, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Most athiests I know have the same level of belief in gods as they do in fairies. There is no good evidence for them so they do not believe they exist. Should firm evidence for fairies be provided then the position would change. Now, there is a general belief system here - being that we should only believe things for which there is evidence or - perhaps more accurately - that our level of belief should be proportional to the quantity and quality of the evidence. My guess would be that this is the most common atheist position today.
- Having said that, there are other types of athiests.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 10:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- It entirely depends on what you want to call a "belief", and whether a certain collection of beliefs constitutes a "system". For instance, you believe there is a person typing this comment on a keyboard, that's a belief. That you can have this belief without having seen it happen first hand based on evidence and the fact you've seen people type into the MediaWiki interface before could constitute a belief system - e.g., methodological naturalism. In that case, atheists can have a belief system, but only in the sense that all people have some kind of belief system so that doesn't say much.
- Whether an atheist comes out and says "I don't believe in God" is entirely due to a wider context of how dominant religion is. Christianity rules US politics, the Church of England gets a free ride in the UK legislature - so to come out and say "I have no religion" is a political statement based on such context, not really a statement about whether atheism counts as a belief system to adhere to.
theist 10:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Biblical Literalism as Fundamentalist Atheism
As I understand it, the term "fundamentalist atheist" is used to apply to people who are atheists, but still interpret the Bible in a similar manner that fundamentalist Christians do.
Fundamentalist Christians are notable for looking at the Bible in very black and white terms. The book is either God's Inspired Word, or the entire document is unreliable. For example, G. Richard Bozarth once argued that, if Genesis is wrong about there being an initial Adam and Eve, than Jesus was not really the Son of God and Christianity collapses. A fundamentalist atheist, then, would employ similar logic in an argument about the Bible, bringing up all sorts of Biblical contradictions and saying that this means that we can disregard anything the Bible has to say, because it's clearly not the inerrant and inspired word of God. This, of course, ignores the fact that if the Bible is not the Word of God, it is still an ancient document that must be analyzed like every other document.
These fundamentalist atheists might even criticize Christians for not interpreting the Bible more literally, which they believe is the "right" way to interpret the Bible. — Unsigned, by: Ermac / talk / contribs
- An interesting interpretation which I haven't heard before. But wouldn't that mean that only athiests who had a particular opinion about one particular old book could be "fundamentalist atheists"? Someone who just dismissed the bible as total and utter irrelevant crap wouldn't be one? Or an ex Muslim with an opinion about the Koran but not about the bible couldn't be a "fundamentalist atheist"?--Weirdstuff (talk) 15:27, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
- As much as I dislike the odd "extreme" athesit, the anti theist ones, I've never once met or read an athist who thinks the bible was written lterally or to be read literally, any more than they would think people who wrote myths or fairy tales wrote them literally.
Godot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 16:35, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
- But most athiests would say that the Bible literately says that the world was created in seven days and that a talking snake persuaded Eve to eat an apple which then caused God to curse all women in perpetuity. And the Bible does literally say this. Nobody could argue that this is not what the bible literally says. It is also what a large number of Christians literally believe to be true.
- Another group of Christians would interpret the various biblical stories in different allegorical ways. I guess that he is suggesting that a "non-fundamentalist" atheist would chose one of these various allegorical meanings and espouse it as the "true meaning" of the Bible.
- I have two objections to this. The first being that it interprets atheism only in the light of the Christian religion and the second is that it suggests that athiests should have some opinion about what the Bible "really means" which is different to what it literally says.--Weirdstuff (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would happily mock the literal interpretation of the Bible. But I also happily, and regularly, mock Twilight. It doesn't mean I think Bella Swan literally exists, only that the interpretation from the inside is highly mockable. You know, how the mark of intelligence is to entertain an idea without accepting it. It's an interesting use of the term "fundamentalist atheist", but I've never encountered it before. I would say that it's awkward nomenclature at best, though. That said, "These fundamentalist atheists might even criticize Christians for not interpreting the Bible more literally, which they believe is the "right" way to interpret the Bible." does sound like familiar behaviour of the sort of atheist who would be deserving of the "fundamentalist" label.
theist 18:01, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would happily mock the literal interpretation of the Bible. But I also happily, and regularly, mock Twilight. It doesn't mean I think Bella Swan literally exists, only that the interpretation from the inside is highly mockable. You know, how the mark of intelligence is to entertain an idea without accepting it. It's an interesting use of the term "fundamentalist atheist", but I've never encountered it before. I would say that it's awkward nomenclature at best, though. That said, "These fundamentalist atheists might even criticize Christians for not interpreting the Bible more literally, which they believe is the "right" way to interpret the Bible." does sound like familiar behaviour of the sort of atheist who would be deserving of the "fundamentalist" label.
- As much as I dislike the odd "extreme" athesit, the anti theist ones, I've never once met or read an athist who thinks the bible was written lterally or to be read literally, any more than they would think people who wrote myths or fairy tales wrote them literally.