Talk:Circumcision

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[edit] Proposed edit regarding adverse effect on sexual pleasure

I hope you don't mind, I collapsed the text you added because it was easier than fixing the formatting. I'll look over what you said and tell you what I think. Hopefully other users will do the same and a consensus will be reached. --"Shut up, Brx." 03:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay, so first of all let me say you bring up some interesting points on circumcision's effect on sexual pleasure, and that some of that should definitely be included in the article. However, it's important to remember that RationalWiki is not a general encyclopedia, and so there's only so much information we need to include in order to make the point that circumcision may adversely affect male sexuality.
Second of all, you bring up another interesting point on how male circumcision might be performed unsafely in different parts of the world. That, too, should be included in the article. I should point out, though, that the process for circumcision currently in use as an HIV/AIDS countermeasure is to use an elastic band to cut off blood flow to the foreskin, causing the foreskin to painlessly die and come off with the band within a week.[1] I am telling you this just in case you were not aware, as I imagine it might be of some interest to you.
Thirdly, RationalWiki, if not a feminist website, does have a strong tendency to support feminism. This does not mean we hate men, or are opposed to men (and if I need to clarify, while there exist some rare feminists who hate men, the movement at large is not "misandristic," and indeed supports the rights of all individuals). I feel you should know that if you wish to edit here.
As for FGM and male circumcision... Let me start by saying that I, personally, am against the circumcision of minors, except for clear medical reasons (such as in cases of phimosis). I believe the practice is barbaric and a violation of the rights of those circumcised (since they are minors, they have little say in the process themselves). It is my firm belief that circumcision of minors should be illegal, and that individuals circumcised as minors, should they wish it, ought to be granted the procedures to restore their foreskin by the government (ideally with universal healthcare, but that's not a debate for this page), as well as any psychological treatment necessary.
With all that said, I do not believe that female genital mutilation and male circumcision are equivalent. I certainly believe that they are comparable (and in many cases equivalent in effect, according to what you've said about poorly performed circumcisions), but the intentions behind the two are usually quite different (barring the forcible circumcisions that is sometimes conducted in conflicts such as in Sudan). Female genital mutilation is the attempt to control women under the assumption that woman are both property and unable to control themselves. The procedure is performed for various reasons, ranging from men sexually preferring mutilated genitals, to the shunning of female sexuality, and even to men attempting to curb women's sexual desires in order to allow them to take multiple wives. Female genital mutilation is the patriarchy stamping its boot on women.
Circumcision can arguably be said to be the same thing, but that ignores that the "ideal" female genital mutilation, as a cultural practice, is 1) to mold women to the desires of men and 2)does far more damage than the "ideal" circumcision. That is to say, the removal of the clitoris and sometimes also the labia minora (or worse, infibulation, which is thankfully less common than the clitoridectomies), are done for worse reasons and have worse effects than the removal of the foreskin (to be clear, I am speaking in "ideal" terms. Here, the FGM and circumcision are conducted in a sterile setting without incident). Yes, the removal of the foreskin can negatively impact sexuality, but not in the same way as the removal of the clitoris.
Finally, let me tell you that feminists have nothing to gain by downplaying male circumcision. Privilege is not the Oppression Olympics. It's trying to gain perspective into the struggles of others. It's trying to understand troubles other than our own, and our relationships with those troubles.


Later, probably tomorrow, I will look at the references you provided and add what fits into the article. You did bring up relevant points that I think should be included, so I will try to include them. Your initial edits, as they stood, removed much content and did not match RationalWiki's formatting style. They also contained more information than is probably necessary to get the point across. That's all I have to say for now, thank you for your contributions.--"Shut up, Brx." 03:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not taking any position on this or what's included on the page, but, if I were examining these two articles (Bronselaer et al and Sorrells et al), I'd say that they aren't, on their own, definitive. The Sorrells study seems well designed, but, for my comfort, they've got too few subjects to be sure the finding is due to reality or just to overfitting the data. It's not egregiously wrong, but just kind of small. The Bronselaer study relies entirely on self-report (not wrong) and doesn't assess for confounding beyond the crudest demographic differences. It's vulnerable to the impact of unmeasured correlated covariates. Now, if you had the Bronselaer sample on the Sorrells protocol, well then you might have something more definitive. There's nothing horribly wrong with either study, though. They're just not the best possible version of a study/analysis (I've semi-proudly published lower quality articles). Interesting, not life-changing.— Unsigned, by: MarmotHead / talk / contribs 15:36, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


"Needless to say, this is a false equivalence, as circumcision generally does not cause the serious damage commonly seen with FGM. More congruous procedures would be a penile subincision[wp] or a dorsal slit"

Are you seriously comparing the removal of the inner labia to splitting a penis in half? You do realise that the vagina and the other parts remain intact? How the fuck does what you said make any sense? Waaahh, waaaaaaaah I'm a woman! Having a period is like crushing your testicles with a nutcracker! My problems are amplified because I have 3 holes between my legs and two meaty bags on my chest! RESPECT ME! And if we go with your logic, people in Islamic countries who steal and have their hands removed have absolutely NO right to complain. After all, people often get beheaded in countries like that for no reason, so why should the amputation of the hand be a problem? Man up, you penis-having privileged asshole! Fucking feminist cunt. Moan and complain all you want, you were still born as a woman and you are physically and mentally inferior to me. Have a good day in your fantasy land, whore. 5.12.133.55 (talk) 14:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Phew. This guy. Freud would have a field day with you, friend. Trick (talk) 14:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I love the many arguments you have included in your wonderful reply. I bet Freud would conclude that you love sucking dick just from seeing your ugly, mongoloid face, my dear friend.5.12.133.55 (talk) 15:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
"And sometimes a cigar is just a phallic representation of the fact that you didn't receive enough hugs as a child." Or something like that. Trick (talk) 15:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
You're obsessed with Freud and you waste your time posting on a wiki nobody gives a shit about. You even have an account on said wiki! ANYONE would have a field day with you, friend!5.12.133.55 (talk) 15:39, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Troll--ZooGuard (talk) 19:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry, I wasn't planning to. Anyone who brings up Freud in a discussion doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
Insinuating there was a discussion Trick (talk) 21:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
As if anyone with a fully functioning brain would try to have a serious discussion with someone who thinks circumcision isn't an issue just because FGM exists. That makes absolutely no sense. If you think that makes sense, then why not ignore rape and not consider it a crime? Murder is far worse. There are also victims of battery who suffer brain damage or are left handicapped. There you have it, I just listed the arguments that prove rape isn't actually a crime. QED. If you have a different opinion you're a troll. Troll 188.26.193.174 (talk) 21:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
And there's the issue: I never said that. Just that the post I responded to has some serious and obvious issues with females. Nice self projection though. Trick (talk) 18:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] In 50 years, nobody will think this article is rational

The world is becoming more and more anti-circ. people are waking up to the severe sexual affects and loss of nerve endings. this article shows just how horrible conservative and sexist feminists are.— Unsigned, by: 212.159.124.6 / talk / contribs

The article makes no arguments from popularity. It gives the major academic evidence in summary forms. That's pretty much always been rationalwiki's MO. You're kinda imagining that our denigration of people like you comes from some kind of support for circumcision, when it's mostly about the fact that you douche-bags love to make false equivalences to FGM. Ikanreed (talk) 18:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Your reply to him was inflammatory and anything but rational. IMO You were straw manning his argument by bringing up FGM, though I do think his bringing up feminism was unnecessary. Honestly though, I view your and others remarks as genuinely offensive drivel. This is a serious and sensitive subject for many, including myself. Laugh about it all you want, but you are on the wrong side of history and anyone with any common sense would realize that. Keep talking like a smart-mouthed jackass. Now accuse me of being his sockpuppet while you're at it.--184.43.32.177 (talk) 11:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

omg, shut the fuck up about "false equivalencies to FGM." It is not a false equivalency. The two are equivalent. African MGM is just as bad as FGM, and more boys than girls die from it every year. They often use machetes or broken beer bottles, and it's disgusting. boys die of blood loss, suffer severe infections, and all the same things associated with FGM happen to boys as well. And a woman without a clitoris can still have much more intense g-spot orgasm than even an uncircumcised man can have. im circumcised and virtually completely numb. an orgasm for me is less intense than a sneeze. It's hateful feminist whiny self-victimizing matrydom to say male genital mutilation is somehow less important than female genital mutilation.

But that's ALL it's about for guys isn't it? I DIDNT EVEN MENTION FGM IN MY ORIGINAL COMMENT. Why can't we talk about circumcision without you assholes derailing the conversation with FGM? It literally doesn't matter if FGM is worse, I'm talking about MALE genital mutilation right now, which is a serious and horrible form of genital mutilation that deserves serious attention. Even anti-FGM women in Africa are talking about male genital mutilation. It's absolutely ridiculous to say you can't call circumcision mutilation just something else apparently unrelated is worse.

There is no point in trivializing male genital mutilation by sayng "o but FGM is worse." It's like saying cutting off a finger isn't bad, becaue cutting off the whole hand is worse.

you feminists are absolutely horrible and conservative, and one day you will look back at this with shame.

and actually, you ignore most of the academic studies on the sexual effects of circumcision, and you COMPLETELY ignore male genital mutilation in Africa. a record number of boys have died this year in south Africa's eastern cape province, but I guess that doesn't matter to yo

Why are you letting anon extend the Overton window, exactly? "circumcision generally does not cause the serious damage commonly seen with FGM." When it does, it's not circumcision, it's Male Genital Mutilation, or Using Inappropriate Medical Procedures/Tools, depending on if he's whining about people intentionally cutting off more than the foreskin, or using unsterilized/poorly designed tools to do it. Hipocrite (talk) 14:49, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Lol @ MRA crying about false equivalences. Cry more homie. Nah but seriously, why is it the job of feminists to do the work the MRA wants to do? Why are feminists conservative when most feminists have no opinion on circumcision? Like most MRA's, you probably don't give much of a shit about what you're complaining about, you're just doing it to take down feminism. It's much like how your ilk weaponizes male rape victims.-BlackProg (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Wow, homie, way to straw man the fuck out of the guy. Throwing in feminist that MRA this blah blah blah. It's a human rights issue. You sound completely irrational.--184.43.32.177 (talk) 11:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow...seriously, fuck you. First of all, male rape is not a weapon. I've been sexually assaulted and I care about it very much, you fucking piece of shit.

It's so fucking insulting to think I only care about circumcision to "take down feminists", like I'm not allowed to be angry that my reproductive organ was mutilated. im against circumcision because I fucking hate being circumsied.

and circumcision causes significant nerve damage. the frenulum and ridged band are removed, along with thousands of bulbocavernosus nerve endings and meissners corpuscles. it's ridiculous to believe that slicing off a highly innervated erogenous tissue from the sex organ won't cause a loss of sexual pleasure. any logical or rational person can see what that doesn't make any sense.

seriously, educate yourself Even “normal” circumcisions cause severe nerve damage and loss of sexual function. A recent study from the british Medical journal concluded that circumcision removes the most sensitive parts of the penis, and that uncircumcised penis are 400% more sensitive than circumcised penises. This means circumcision removes 75% of sexual pleasure, so if you’re a circumcised guy, multiply your pleasure by 4, and that’s what you’d be feeling if you were uncut.

Here’s that study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

This is because the inner foreskin contains thousands of specialized sexual nerve endings and erogenous tissue such as the bulbocavernosus nerve endings and meissners corpuscles. A study last year confirmed that the foreskin is ultra-sensitive and loaded with nerve endings:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102

Two specific parts of the foreskin are the frenulum and ridged band, each acting as erogenous zones. The wiki articles on the two are very good (I know, I wrote them.) I’ll copy and paste the important parts.

RIDGED BAND:

The prepuce, including the ridged band, is a specific erogenous zone.[3]

Taylor (1996) postulates that “the ridged band with its unique structure, tactile corpuscles and other nerves, is primarily sensory tissue”.[2] He hypothesizes (2007) that Meissner’s corpuscles in the ridged band are adapted to detect stretch:

Work in progress indicates that retraction and stretching of this accordion-like structure triggers reflex contraction of bulbocavernosus and bulbospongiosus.[4]

Taylor theorizes that the main function of the ridged band is to trigger sexual reflexes. In a letter to the editor of BJU International, 2007, Taylor writes:

Initial study (J.R.T. unpublished) indicates that the real importance of the ridged band to sexual intercourse lies in an ability to trigger a reflex contraction of muscles responsible for ejaculation.[5]

In the Journal of Sexual Medicine, 2007, Taylor states:

Both glans and prepuce contribute to the single mucocutaneous junctional zone of the penis and it is possible that these apparently dissimilar structures in fact share similar functions related more to sexual reflexes than to touch perception.[4]

The effect of circumcision on sexual function is the subject of intense debate. Taylor’s view is that “almost certainly, removal of the prepuce and its ridged band distorts penile reflexogenic functions but exactly how and to what extent still remains to be seen”.[4] More recent research has demonstrated that the clinically important bulbocavernosus reflex is absent in 73% of circumcised men ostensibly due to the removal of fine-touch nerve endings in the ridged band.[6]

FRENULUM:

The frenulum and the associated tissue delta on the underside of the penis below the corona has been described in sexuality textbooks as “very reactive” and “particularly responsive to touch that is light and soft.” The “underside of the shaft of the penis, meaning the body below the corona” is a “source of distinct pleasure.”[5] Crooks and Baur observe that two extremely sensitive specific locations that many men find particularly responsive to stimulation are the corona, and the frenulum.[6] Repeated stimulation of this structure will cause orgasm and ejaculation in some men.

In men with spinal cord injury preventing sensations from reaching the brain, the frenulum just below the glans can be stimulated to produce orgasm and peri-ejaculatory response.[7][8]

It’s also theorized that the extreme pain and trauma in the first day of life can cause permanent brain damage.

http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html


And not having an opinion on circumcision IS conservative. How do you not understand why it's wrong to permanently decrease someone's sexual pleasure? isn't it just obvious to NOT do an irreversible procedure to a baby?

Gish Gallop. Hipocrite (talk) 15:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
I agree that it shouldn't be performed on young babies, though I have no problem with it when consenting adolescents or adults undergo the procedure (though if they do it because of social pressure that'd make it problematic). Whether it affects sexual pleasure seems only relevant to me if the to-be-circumcised individual considers it relevant. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 14:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Blood

How is it that the Ultra-Orthodox rabbis suck blood out of the incision, when Jews are not supposed to drink blood at all? (Leviticus 17:14, "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.") Landmartian (talk) 19:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a commandment about animals & how to prepare their meat before eating. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Humor section

Just wondering, why is there an entire section for "Humor" in an article for a human rights issue? It seems out of place in the rest of the article. — Unsigned, by: 63.246.171.87 / talk / contribs 09:49, 6 January 2015‎

True, dat. (Anyhoo it's spelled "humour" in the civilised parts of the world) Scream!! (talk) 11:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Cut. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ﹐ Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 15:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Autism Discussion

There was a recent discussion in the Saloon about a starter study that linked trauma caused by circumcision (among other traumas) and autism. Worth mentioning here? Trick (talk) 16:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 17:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'll try my hand at my first wiki edit of any sort, then....later this evening. That is, if nobody beats me to it. Or if I forget. Trick (talk) 18:10, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] sensitivity

I have to say, the part about sexual pleasure is so completely wrong. Honestly this ridiculous insistence other feminists have on clinging to that kind of anti-science just irritates the hell out of me because my little brother was almost circumcised and I had to beg my parents not to. It's so obvious to any rational person who does research that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure. I've had my share of partners, both cut and uncut, and there is an obvious and definitive difference between the two-uncircumcised penises are MUCH more sensitive. The amount of pressure that wouldn't be enough for a cut guy would be painful for a uncut guy, and this is very consistent.

seriously, it's just intellectually dishonest of you at this point. It's so easy to find if you just spend a little bit of time. The metaanalysis was majorly flawed, you can't take subjective reports of plerasure from men circumcised at birth, because they dont know what being uncut would feel like! There are plenty of studies that show circumcision reduces pleasure: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102 The foreskin itself is an erogenous zone and contains thousands of nerve endings. A lot of guys restore their foreskin and notice a huge difference, including my boyfriend.

I don't know what you're trying to prove, but it's really just childish, and actually harmful.

I agree with you to some extant. However as far as I can tell the medical literature appears to be inconclusive on the issue of reduced sexual pleasure from circumcisions. These five studies however do not concur with your conclusion, but due concur with that of the study you cited:
These sources are all of varying value, not all of them address the topic directly either. All that being said I have seen studies which find that there may be reduced sexual pleasure from circumcision and hence it is probably a good idea to change the article to say that the evidence is inconclusive. Alsto003 (talk) 01:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC) Alex
I would rather that the article present both evidence for and against circumcision reducing sexual pleasure, when and if it exists, with rebuttals where necessary. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ﹐ Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 01:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
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