Talk:Conservapedia/Archive1

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[edit] Bias

Actually, without commenting on conservapedia, but in general, I love the idea of biased sources. I wish we had more overtly partisan newspapers, for example. In one of the federalist papers, factionalism was deemed bad. I think it is good. Better for people to wear their bias on their sleaves, in my opinion. So, in general, the idea of an encyclopedia that has a conservative bias has some appeal. Or perhaps a wiki-pedia alternative could have multiple articles with different bias, allowing the user to jump back and fourth among the different presentations. Of course, many problems to be worked out in this area (e.g., users feigning a bias they do not really have, subverting other POVs). HGHeartOfGold talk 00:14, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree with you: hiding bias is wrong and devious... that was one of my main problems with CP. For so long they pretended not to have a bias, it really killed the community.-AmesG 00:26, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
I think when you read/watch news with a constant bias you really start seeing a neutral point of view as bias. I think this can go both ways but it is especially true of people who start thinking that search engines have biases. There is a certain level of paranois that develops. olliegrind 06:48, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
I think one of the best examples of that is what has happened to the "political spectrum" as defined here in the US. The US "center" as described is to the right of where it is most everywhere else. When France elects a "conservative", Ashfly gets all up in his chuckles, without realizing that that conservative is to the left of Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton. I described myself in an email to Aulis as "very liberal" or "far left", then I realized (he is in Finland) that by Scandinavian standards, I am probably a centrist or slightly left moderate. Since Reagan and the advent of the right-wing noise machine, US politics has been conceptually pushed further and further to the right, with the Dem party getting sucked into the vacuum in the center/center right. It would be interesting to accurately quote mine Ashfly on what "liberal" and especially "conservative" mean. After all, he claims a broad majority, or at least plurality, for cons over libs, yet he disavows every right winger who gets in trouble as "not conservative". humanbe in 11:31, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
It would be nice to have an article about the wp:Overton Window and how CP fits into trying to shift it. --jtltalk 13:44, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
Speaking of bias, in the morning I typicaly watch an hour of news or so on FOX and CNN. I have found that if you switch channels very fast between the two stations, you can actually get the real, unbiased truth. There was one time where both stations were running pieces on the exact same event, but the two versions of what happened were so different they were almost unrecognizable.Prof0705 09:55, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
Why not just watch the BBC and save some effort? (My current theory is that the closer youa re to events, the more distorted they seem. Distance helps with accuracy.) --Gulik 20:06, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
One exception to this, in my experience, is the Israeli press. The government in Israel seems to be much more objectively covered in Israel than in the United States. HGHeartOfGold talk 21:39, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
Unfortunately, I do not have BBC. It costs a lot of money to get the package that includes it from my cable provider. So instead I will continue to wear out my Previous Channel button on the clicker.Prof0705 18:14, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
You don't know how fortunate you are to be spared all that liberal bias (See CP:British Broadcasting Corporation ). Personally I am extremely glad we have the BBC in the UK. It gets attacked by both major parties so it must be doing something right. Also the BBC website gets a lot of hits from the US - just check out the user comments to any major international story. Mad Min 15:11, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree, the BBC is very thorough and not noticeably biased, you never hear a BBC newsreader giving their own opinion, which is in my eyes FOX's greatest flaw. MiddleMan

From what I've seen, I'd agree that the BBC is doing something right. The "everyone hates us, so we must be balanced" theory is a pet peeve of mine, though -- sometimes if everyone hates you, it's just because you're an asshole, and if everyone is attacking your reporting, it may just mean you're not very good at it. --jtltalk 15:58, 27 May 2007 (CDT)
The hate from both sides thing is a domestic issue and really boils down to the fact that politicians would like to control the BBC for their own propaganda. I think internationally the BBC is well regarded because of it's impartiality. They may not get it always right but on the whole I think they are fair. Also as a publicly funded body they don't have to pander to commercial pressures in the same way that NewsCorp does. ɱɑδ ɱ¡ɳblow in my ear/I did this! 16:10, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Philosophical Stance

I have added a section with what I see as the primary biases of CP. Please feel free to add or amend. There is probably stuff about free trade, wealth and poverty, etc that could be added. It would be nice to have some biblical quotes to go with the various points. Mad Min 15:11, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

While Conservapedia may be pro-homeschooling, can someone please explain to me why this is considered "anti-liberal"? I ask for clarification, being the liberal parent of a liberal homeschooled child, you see...Malraux 11:30, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
They pick and choose their "conservative" stances, with regard to homeschooling it means "back in the days of the Founding Fathers" (who were all good Christian men promoting Christian values, nevermind that they were fomenting rebellion against their God-given sovereign). CЯacke® 11:09, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
OK, so can this be called "pro-religious homeschooling" instead, or something similar? Malraux 11:30, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
I wrote the original list and agree that home-schooling is not anti-liberal per se. Although CPs take on it seems to be something special. I would be quite happy about just unindenting the homeschooling line so that it doesn't look as if it is grouped under anti-liberal. ɱ@δ ɱ!ɳHello?/I did this! 11:42, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
How's that...a bit of both? CЯacke® 11:45, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
Works for me, thanks. Malraux 11:59, 20 June 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Memorial Day Irony on Conservapedia

We have all seen how CP passes itself off as a Pro-US, patriotic wiki. Take a look at the main page. You see blurbs about one in four Muslims supporting suicide bombings, outrage over an Arabic language school, stories of people being forced to watch Al Gore's movie, and stuff about evil Lib'ruls and their evil vaccines. What is missing on the page? Why any mention at all of Memorial Day! Does it not seem at all ironic that a wiki that has an American flag as its logo devotes more room to rabble-rousing than to remembering a supposedly important holiday?Prof0705 11:22, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

Oooooooops? XD
Well, the CP article (cp:Memorial Day, currently this article only has one edit) explains why:
Traditional observance of Memorial Day has diminished over the years. Many Americans nowadays have forgotten the meaning and traditions of Memorial Day.
In similarly dumb frontpage news: The currently featured article (cp:French Revolution) cites ZERO references. In fact, the only off-site link in the entire thing apparently is a link to the text of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. And if I read the history correctly, four people who are currently sysops contributed to it. Quality Control for the win, people. --Sid 11:44, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
Thanks for fixing the template link, Human. I did the same, but it resulted in a Null Edit since you got there first (I wanted to think of a good edit summary to properly reflect on the sad fact that I forgot the name of a template that I created both here and on CP.) --Sid 11:56, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Scary thing about CP and its followers....

Something that kinda scares me about CP is the fact that my fiance's mother would fit right in over there. She is a homeschooler, she is a hard-core right-winger, and a Biblical literalist. She is currently using CP to help educate her two youngest children. What scares me is that when I have kids and they go to visit grandma for a week they may come home spewing shit like this.Prof0705 09:53, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

The fact that people are actually teaching children this tripe simultaneously terrifies and enrages me. There's a reason why I consider it a form of child abuse. --Kels 09:54, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
I often wonder how this kids will survive in the real world. If they're anything like Andy they'll spew all sorts of horseshit and falsehoods, no way they would survive in a normal workplace. Maybe they'll telecommute to avoid human contact. Jrssr5 10:05, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Puts me in mind of the clearly spurious references the homeschool advocates keep bringing up about how well socialized homeschoolers are when they make it to college. Most of the actual educators I've heard speak on the subject say just the opposite. --Kels 10:15, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
I can honestly say, as a former professor and teacher, the few homeschooled kids I've come across are nothing special. The worst I can say about any of them is they have trouble in group conversations in the classroom. As a group, they tend not to like debate. I will say they generally have a good understanding of the bible, biblical allusions, that sort of thing, but that only gets them so far. The worst experience I had with a homeschooled student was when I tried to teach Camus' Plague and was told, by a student, I was "preaching blasphemy" to the class. That is the one and only time I've thrown a student out of my classroom for anything. I told him to go home and come back when he'd calmed down a bit. In the end, he read Giants in the Earth, but his tone kind of freaked me out. Flippin;-) 11:56, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
I can definitively say that homeschoolers are not well socialized. However, there is the occasional high-IQ homeschooled student who may have benefitted by not being abused in public school or other large-population setting, as so many of us are. But using CP to teach… ----Linus(plot evil tech) 12:05, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Keep in mind also that in the statistical world of "homeschooling", there are other types than these fundies. People do it for many reasons, including providing special quality care and instruction to the learning disabled and the gifted. And there are the hippies... All of whom could skew the graph up, compared to these nutniks. humanbe in 12:25, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
I had one a homeschooled fundie kid in one of my anthropology classes. No idea about fundamental, basic evolutionary concepts, severly ethnocentric, and completely unwilling to change. I had to pull him aside and suggest he drop the course.Prof0705 13:15, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Um, yeah. Fundie homeschooled kids are bad, mkay, so all homeschooled kids are? So no-one here has learned the lesson from CP about gross generalization? There are many different reasons to homeschool, as one person pointed out, and stereotyping homeschooled kids as "dropouts" or "fundies" doesn't do anyone any good. And as far as socialization goes, I'll leave it at this: if you think homeschooled kids aren't well socialized, then your experience differs with mine.— Unsigned, by: 208.64.37.150 / talk / contribs
I think amoungst the non-homeschooled (or homeschooling) masses, there isn't much thought given to the subject beyond the cursory glance. It is almost as if people think homeschooled = sequestered from "normal" life and activities. True, the homeschooled child may never learn how to relentlessly pick on those whom look or sound "different", but, hey, maybe that's a Good Thing? CЯacke® 11:20, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


CP's statistics say it has over 7000 registered users... where are they? I mean, are banned users still being counted, or what? MiddleMan

There's a discussion about that over at Conservapedia Talk:Best of Conservapedia. Roughly 5,000 or more banned, lots inactive too. --Kels 18:26, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Yes, the banned users count. See here for the end of cp:Special:Listusers: 7251 users in total. I'm #5933 right now, and I've been banned for eons. Heck, the list starts with "!!!!!Hitler was a sensitive man", so that should be a good hint. :P --Sid 18:31, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
See the forthcoming Conservapedia:User Statistics. --jtltalk 04:12, 30 May 2007 (CDT)


I think someone pointed this out already, but I just think it's funny CP's own statistics mention 9200 articles, while Andy says they've already passed the 10000 mark, that means he is quoting here it comes... liberally! MiddleMan

What do you expect from a bunch of homeschool dropouts, eh? --Kels 18:41, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Yes, even though I constantly forget where that had been discussed. I do recall Andy claiming that the stupid MediaWiki software only approximates and that he's using an accurate count. Possibly, he's using Special:Popularpages or (I think I recall somebody saying so...) AncientPages or something like that. So he counts all ultra-stubs and useless listings and what-else-not. All the shit the software doesn't regard as a real article. Deceit? What deceit? ;) --Sid 18:43, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
He said he was using AncientPages; someone pointed out that that meant he was counting redirects. I don't remember ever seeing a response. If someone reminds me tonight, I can dig out the cite when I'm home. --jtltalk 19:20, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Yeah, that was me, basically. Was it on our main page talk? Anyway, I looked at acinecenint pages, and there was a file I knew there was another version of, so I clicked, and it was a redirect. humanbe in
Here's the cite: "Are you counting templates? redirects? special pages? categories? images?", "None of the above are included. Included are substantive entries and valuable study aids. You can do the count yourself by going through the list at Special:Ancientpages. Feel free to report the exact number here" This looks like the final version of that convo, but I'm not positive on that. --jtltalk 04:10, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

[edit]

Anyone have a copy of the "Trusworthy" logo to use here? --jtltalk 19:35, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Yup.
Conservlogo late april.png

humanbe in 19:43, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Now, does anyone have that severely pwned one that this replaced in a hurry? humanbe in 19:45, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Good question. Was BORF anyone here? --Kels 19:51, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
There's a chance it's up at uncyclopedia, but I can't tell for sure because that weird alpha channel function never worked on my creaky old mozilla bruiser. If we do pull it in, can someone do the separations and put the several images in a row in one section, perhaps? humanbe in 20:11, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
The Alpha-Channel PNG was on WP (I think), and I saved it, too... gimme a sec. But it's 3am, so any editing will have to be done by somebody else... Sleep is for the weak. --Sid 20:13, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
CP Hidden Alpha.png --> *insert light grey background* --> Conservlogo Unhidden Alpha.png
(D'oh, I wanted to make the filenames similar... oh well. Maybe somebody can move it...) --Sid 20:26, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
Sleep? Sleep is for wimps! Happy, well rested wimps, but WIMPS! --Kels 20:39, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

It's a pity that logo was hacked, I really liked it, for CP, anyway. I thought it was good work. Now, does someone have that alpha channel separation thing that shows the wandalism clearly for hacktards like me? humanbe in 21:40, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Logo's not showing up for me. --Gulik 04:40, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

Same here. Did somebody delete them? --Sid 06:44, 30 May 2007 (CDT)
My forum avatar is also suddenly gone. Did anybody restore the image folders to an older version? That would explain why there are pointers to suddenly nonexistent images... --Sid 06:50, 30 May 2007 (CDT)
I cannot see the images either, and that makes me feel suicidal. Pipebomb of TruthProf0705 07:23, 30 May 2007 (CDT)
I've re-uploaded the images. Not 100% sure about the "Trusworthy" one, but I think it's the version Human had uploaded, too. --Sid 08:23, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Locked-down editing?

I think CP just restricted editing to approved users only. Their edit rate has plunged, and Aschlafly gave Jacques "edit" privs. --jtltalk 18:32, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

Or maybe not. A brand new user just edited cp:Physics. Wonder what that edit priv for Jacques is, then? --jtltalk 18:38, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
Editing is working just fine!
It would appear that the Edit category is for out-of-hours editing - see[1]
Editing is turned off overnight, except for Sysops and those with special rights. Can you login, and just can't edit? --Sysop-TK /MyTalk

Babel fishÅЯ†ђŮŖ ÐΣй†Now look here! 16:45, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Does anyone experience the pucker-factor when you hear "special rights?" Flippin;-) 16:55, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
First thing I thought of was those homos wantin' all their special rights for their sodomy, and all that.--PalMD-yada yada 17:02, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
Conservapedia: A conservative (whatever that means) encyclopedia that only registered users who haven't pissed off the management or are 'cyberterrorists' can edit--during the day--that you can trust. Smiles. Sterile 20:11, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
Like I said.... it's going to implode ue to their own paranoia. --Gulik 12:23, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
  • Hahaha....all those good new editors everyday must make you stomp your foot, Gulik!  ;-) --TK/MyTalk 18:09, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

This is interesting. Apparently you can no longer access cp:Special:Allpages any more, and the initial list of Special pages looks shorter than it used to. Is this connected to changes in user rights, or what? --Kels 13:28, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Check Conservapedia:Timeline on June 16, some more info there, but no answers about the "Why?" part. Some speculation, though. I'm currently working on exporting that bit into its own article, too (to avoid cluttering up the Timeline like it's currently done). --Sid 13:31, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
Cool - we should probably also have an article on "user rights", and how most wikis work and how CP moves steadily away from that model? humanbe in 13:34, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Fun stuff

I just saw this edit summary on CP:

(Block log); 17:47 . . DanH (Talk | contribs) (blocked "User:Antandrus" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism, even though it may be true)

My original thought was how stupid. But closer examination reveals a sense of humour! God's peed Babel fishÅЯ†ђŮŖ ÐΣй†Now look here! 17:24, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

DanH has a few entertaining block notes, actually. My favorite:
05:56, 8 June 2007 DanH (Talk | contribs) blocked "Hoewagon (contribs)" with an expiry time of infinite (we see you trollin'... we hatin'...)
Sad fact: I only know of that song because I listened to Weird Al's "White and Nerdy". --Sid 18:47, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
Would've been sadder if you knew of that song because you listen to those kinds of songs :P Tanktunker A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. 15:32, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

[edit] "white people"

There is a LOT of anti-white hatred at CP. PWNED!--7/1/07

How so? -- Stevo (talk) 17:42, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
The site never focuses on anti-whiteness in the liberal media, and bans anyone who they believe to be "racist" because they gave a shit for white people. Their article on "racism" has a history of removed additions that stood up for white people. PWNED!--7/1/07

You should read the history of the Barack Obama article for a more accurate view of CP aka the home of the white supremicists. anti-white indeed. Exasperate me!Sheesh!I said what? 20:36, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

User Jeb B. was a troll/vandal (ooh, and icewedge sock??!??!), unlikely to return (so he won't see any answers). humanbe in 20:50, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Current quick to ban policy

It appears that the sysops are quick to ban these days. This ultimately may be a good thing for the rest of the world. Consider the contributions of people who actually are conservative who then have their contributions reverted and their name banned with the accusation 'troll'. Consider how that would make an honest to goodness Christian conservative who is not YEC feel about their own party and far right. Or consider how that helps widen the gap between the fiscal conservative and the social conservative. I suggest that there are few things as good for the left side of the aisle as overly aggressive conservatives who reject everything but their own dogma. One couldn't ask for better help from the left as Andy is giving the left. --Shagie 19:37, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

I've had the same sort of thoughts about Rush Lumbaugh and Ann Coulter but their continued popularity and apparent respect that they enjoy from conservatives make me doubt that the slimey pair really are causing conservatives who are not rabid fascists to rethink their positions. Because Ann and Rush (and Pat Robertson and Bush for that matter) are still listened to and respected, I'm beginning to think that there are decent folk and there are assholes and the majority of assholes are conservatives. Who on the left behaves as they do and is still respected? Nobody. There is a reason for that. Exasperate me!Sheesh!I said what? 20:35, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

The difference is Ann and Rush are conservative entertainers. Similar to Bill Maher as a liberal entertainer. One is amused at the issues brought up and nod and say "thats right." It is another thing to be outcast from a growing conservative community because you are not YEC or a social conservative. That would be akin to volunteering for an election campaign but kicked out once you mentioned that you are not a perfect match for that candidate's platform. Do you think you'd still vote for that person? Or would you be slightly more apathetic at going out to vote that year? Would you look at the rest of the platform and think again and hard about if you really should be voting for this person? The opposition also energizes that party - there are more registered democrats than there are registered republicans - its just a matter of getting out the vote. The more the fundamentalist social conservative message is put out there, the more people realize they don't agree with their own party or decide that they really do need to vote this year. As such, I still maintain that Conservapedia is one of the best things to come along for the right - to attract attention to what is there, the extreme views of the people (and not just entertainers), and foster disagreement within the conservative side of politics. Just look at the debate if the LDS is a member of the greater Christian Church - this is clearly alienating individuals. Likewise, a bit ago there was some push back on the Catholic doctrine (location of text on the page, choice of images). It just takes time for people to realize that those who actually are trying to direct the social conservatives are much more extreme in their beliefs than the American public (can anyone find stats to suggest that CP is 6x more extreme than the American public?) --Shagie 21:05, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
Actually, it is sad. They are probably quick to ban because some of the vandals that came from this site. It's not like RW hasn't given CP good reason to be paranoid. To the end of making it more likely that CP will fail in its mission, I guess the apparent goal of some RW contribitors is being furthered. I'd like to see the RW wedge document. HeartGold tx 23:45, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
Nah, Conservapedia are their own worst enemies, despite some fierce competition. For one, I can't even be bothered to post anything there--there's no way I can out-crazy professionals, and anything genuinely informative will be deleted and locked. --Gulik 23:51, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
Coulter may be an entertainer, but when she starts in on how hilarious it would be if all the Liberal Traitors (if you'll pardon the redundancy) were rounded up and shot, they're not laughing AT her. One semi-conspiracy theory I've heard is that part of the reason shit-stirrers like her and Michael Savage are allowed to make the sane conservatives (all 14 of them) look bad is because they're a useful way for the Karl Roves of the ultra-right-wing to appear 'moderate' by comparison when they propose "just" sentencing all Liberals to life at hard labor. --Gulik 23:51, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
See the crap I made up at lightning rod humanbe in 03:13, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Article # FYI

As of the time this was posted the wiki software on CP registered 14529 articles, 21814 pages in the main space, 500 pages with less then 76 characters in the source, 3469 pages under 300 characters, 4659 redirects, and at least 371 indexes (probably a lot more). This was while Andrew Schafly claimed 14,900 articles. - Icewedge 21:13, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

ummm, that still leaves more than 5,000 doesn't it? I'm getting something like 5530. 14529 - 500 - 3469(assuming doesn't include under 76) - 4659 - 371 = 5530. Unless I'm forgetting something, or did something wrong. There's still a heck of a lot of crappy useless pages, though. ThunderkatzHo! 21:25, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that '1' changes things. A lot. ThunderkatzHo! 21:42, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
Yeah, he meant 14900. Threw me a bit, too... humanbe in 21:44, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
My mistake sorry guys. - Icewedge 21:46, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
Here is the front page claiming it, permalinked, in case he realizes he's an idiot. ThunderkatzHo! 21:49, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
there are over 5000 pages under the length of this one
LOL, they don't have any USA Newcastles! So much for the Rustworthy Encyclical! humanbe in 22:09, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
Or Newcastle Ale. Jrssr5 08:07, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Not only that

The user list says they is 11,300 registered users, the IP block log says there is 14925 blocks. CЯacke® 21:31, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Figuring half those blocks might be IPs, leaves like 4000. Can't be true. Confused... humanbe in 21:44, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
That's ALL blocks , one day, three hours. everything.CЯacke® 21:55, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
Still means that on average, every user has been blocked at least once. ThunderkatzHo! 22:01, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

I think part of the discrepancy works like this: you try and log in on a proxy that's already been blocked, the IP block kicks in and another block is added to the count (with a reference back to the original). Could be wrong, like. --Robledo 13:16, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm actually not sure if the IP autoblock kicks in... Haven't tried it, though. Edit: Wait, actually, I have! Back when TK blocked me for "adding stubs" (long and silly story), he forgot to unban my IP when he unbanned me, but I wasn't autobanned and could edit away once I got a new IP. --Sid 14:27, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

[edit] Joe B(loggs?)

So; Joe B logs on as a new user and within 6 minutes amends (with criticism) the Conservapedia article : a little pushy no? (Joe B = Joe Bloggs? A UK equivalent of John Doe) Keepright on ... 11:47, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

The words he excised were a bit editorial; his edit is "concise".CЯacke® 12:03, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
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