Talk:Dick Cheney
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[edit] Stuff
Could we get a fact check on the "politically homophobic." bit? Heart♥Gold tx 22:06, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- I dunno how to check, but wouldn't his vote (or public opinion) on stuff like that silly anti-SSM amendment do the trick? --Kels 22:08, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- He ran for office on a platform that emphasized opposition to same-sex marriage. Is there dispute about that, or is the question whether 'politically homophobic' is a reasonable way to describe that? --jtltalk 22:23, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- I'd lean to granting the VP some voter-base pleasing on this issue. I think his "personal opinion" is there is nothing "wrong" with gay folk, though politically he almost has to be agin SSM and the like. ~~ Cracker 22:25, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- I suspect that many (maybe even most) of the high-level Republican politicos don't actually see anything wrong with gay people. But as long as they intentionally appeal to people who do (or worse, inflame that dislike), I think it's fair to call them 'politically homophobic'. And since I beat everyone else to the category page itself, that's how I defined it there... --jtltalk 22:40, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- I am against same sex marriage. I don't believe I am homophobic. They are two different issues. One has to do with the attempted redefinition of a word, and the other has to do with bigotry. So yes, aside from being against a SSM, which doesn't make a person homophobic (there are homosexuals who are against SSM), why would you classify the Vice President as a homophobic? I think you'd have a much stronger case in putting him in a category of politicians who should take gun safety course. Heart♥Gold tx 22:44, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- aside from being against a SSM, which doesn't make a person homophobic. No, I'm afraid it really, really does. Also, you're spouting right-wing talking points like "redefining marriage" and "there are homosexuals against SSM" (AFAIK, there is one, Elton John, and he lives in Britain where the Domestic Union rules were specifically written to be legally indistinguishable from legal marriage) --Ebon 15:26, 23 February 2009 (EST)
- Yes, we should do that also. humanbe in 21:47, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
- Do you agree that there are people who just don't like gay people? And do you agree that they are against same sex marriage, and adoption by gay people, and protection for gay people from being fired for being gay, and non-marriage marriage-like-arrangements ("civil unions" and the like) for same sex couples, and on and on? And do you agree that the Bush/Cheney campaigns in both 2000 and 2004 were designed to appeal to such people? That is what I, at least, mean by "politically homophobic"; if you agree with all but the label, I'd be interested in hearing suggestions for alternative language. If you disagree on any of the rest, I'm certainly interested in hearing your views, but I'm less confident that we'll be able to come to a compromise we're both happy with. --jtltalk 23:30, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- Politicians who frustrate liberals on issues relating to homosexuality? Heart♥Gold tx 23:57, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- How about "Political activists who inflame and/or take advantage of anti-gay sentiment"? --jtltalk 00:05, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
- LOL. Homosexuals have existed since the dawn of time. It wasn't the conservatives that decided to redefine marriage. How about: Politicians who frustrate liberials. I don't know. Anyway, it's not like I have control. Could you give specific example, though? To me, Cheney isn't all that tough, and neither is Bush, on the issue of homosexuality. For example, it is an executive order that created the "Don't ask, don't tell policy." It could have been rescinded at any time during Bush's administration, but he has not. So why? I say, tacit approval of the Clinton doctrine. (Bush is left of Clinton on many points, and Clinton was right of Bush on many points.) Heart♥Gold tx 01:54, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
- How about "Political activists who inflame and/or take advantage of anti-gay sentiment"? --jtltalk 00:05, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
- Politicians who frustrate liberals on issues relating to homosexuality? Heart♥Gold tx 23:57, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- I suspect that many (maybe even most) of the high-level Republican politicos don't actually see anything wrong with gay people. But as long as they intentionally appeal to people who do (or worse, inflame that dislike), I think it's fair to call them 'politically homophobic'. And since I beat everyone else to the category page itself, that's how I defined it there... --jtltalk 22:40, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- I'd lean to granting the VP some voter-base pleasing on this issue. I think his "personal opinion" is there is nothing "wrong" with gay folk, though politically he almost has to be agin SSM and the like. ~~ Cracker 22:25, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
- He ran for office on a platform that emphasized opposition to same-sex marriage. Is there dispute about that, or is the question whether 'politically homophobic' is a reasonable way to describe that? --jtltalk 22:23, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
(unindenting, because I can't count that many colons) (and without conceding that allowing same-sex marriage would be 'redefining' it) First, remember that the point I'm trying to make here isn't that Cheney is personally homophobic; it's that he preys on voters' anti-gay feelings for his own political purposes. And I don't know why Bush hasn't rescinded don't-ask-don't-tell; that's an interesting question.
It wasn't the conservatives that decided to redefine marriage. Who was it, then? I mean, if 50 wives and 100 concubines was good enough for King Solomon, I don't see why it isn't good enough for us... --Gulik 00:56, 14 December 2007 (EST)
[edit] SSM
On the SSM issue, gay activists may have created the issue, but I don't have any doubt that the Bush/Cheney campaign consciously utilized it to drive voters to the polls, even in states where there was no real chance that SSM would be legalized any time soon. I admit I don't have smoking gun cites to offer, and I wish I had more to offer. Here's a paper exploring whether the strategy worked; unfortunately for this discussion, the authors seem to think that the fact that such a strategy was used is too basic to need citing. This BBC article says " Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, famously said that the key to this election was turning out four million evangelical Christians who did not vote in the year 2000.", but again it's too 'famous' to need an actual cite. (Amusingly, that article also has a prominent picture of Ted Haggard as part of a discussion of "values voters".) --jtltalk 03:23, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
- How about Politicians who do not correct misconceptions that they are anti-gay, to the frustration of liberals and conservatives? Again, don't ask/don't tell could have been reversed with Bush's signature, but it is still stands. Heart♥Gold tx 03:35, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
- (NOTE: The preceeding observations about Bush's refusal to revert Clinton's executive order is probably what makes me too conservative for Conservapedia.) Heart♥Gold tx 03:39, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
I have to agree with Heart, we should go back to the traditional, fundamental definition of marriage: A division of property between the parents of strangers --Kels 05:43, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Oh noes!
I'm related to Cheney :-P. Seriously. Cousins like 3d removed.-AmesG 21:26, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
- I like Dick Cheney, though I disagree with much of his radical viewpoints (e.g., Let's invade Iraq). We should have went after Saudi and Pakistan in my opinion, since there were many more direct links that they, like Afganistan, were providing aid and comfort to enemies that attackes us on 9/11. Heart♥Gold tx 22:23, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
- So Ames, do you get any trickle-down of that Halliburton money?
- And HG, "we" went after Iraq because they were threatening to sell oil in euros, instead of dollars, which would have destablized our position as the "provider" of the global currency reserve. IE, it might have crashed the dollar. Osama who? humanbe in 23:29, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
- I've heard that theory, and it might be part of why. However, the Republicans aren't exactly looking out for U.S. interests in the continuation of Clinton global free trade, in which we pay China to industrialize while we deindustrialize. But Wolfowitz et al had their eyes on Iraq before Saddam switched to Euros in the food for oil (read: UN Corruption). Whether or not this was before they threatened to, I do not know. But, like evolution, the euros theory is a conspiracy theory (may even have some merit, but it is not scientific). Heart♥Gold tx 00:51, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
- If you're going to mention the Oil For Food Scandal, you are obligated to explain what it was about. (I have 95% certainty that you know it was VERY VERY BAD, but are fuzzy on the details.) --Gulik 00:59, 14 December 2007 (EST)
- I've heard that theory, and it might be part of why. However, the Republicans aren't exactly looking out for U.S. interests in the continuation of Clinton global free trade, in which we pay China to industrialize while we deindustrialize. But Wolfowitz et al had their eyes on Iraq before Saddam switched to Euros in the food for oil (read: UN Corruption). Whether or not this was before they threatened to, I do not know. But, like evolution, the euros theory is a conspiracy theory (may even have some merit, but it is not scientific). Heart♥Gold tx 00:51, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Scowl image
The first thing I thought of was that if the image were wider you'd see Larry Craig behind Cheney. --Edgerunner76 21:27, 13 December 2007 (EST)
[edit] OK, might get flack
I hate this man. Consider him to be the prince of darkness, particularly because of his support of torture. However, should he be considered "politically homophobic" when he personally came out in support of states being able to determine their own marriage laws? Researcher 01:20, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- Yes. Look at the party platform he supports. He could have fought for some inclusion over the last seven years, but he spent no capital on the issue at all. Remember, that states rights thing is just a fig leaf... human
03:12, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- In this case, though, it puts him on the less homophobic side of his party. (There were even a few wingnut calls for him resignation over not supporting the FMA). Moreover, in this case, "states rights" could only be a fig leaf for trying to increase homosexual rights, rather than restrict them. I personally feel he and Mary both should have done more, but I have a hard time calling him "homophobic" over it. Researcher 17:12, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- That's why it says "politically homophobic". I honestly believe that in spite of his lack of a soul, he is not actually "personally homophobic". But we are critiquing the Vice President, not the father. It's a bit like Bush on race - he really knows that the hard line approaches to immigration reform are not the answer, but he and his party continue to pander to racist streaks in voters wherever it will help them. human
17:15, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- Firstly, apologies. I didn't realize this very topic had already been discussed. However, I have to say that a man who comes out in favor of the possibility of gay marriage despite the backlash against him from his supporters shouldn't be considered politically homophobic. However, as it seems that the mob has already ruled otherwise, I rescind the objection. On another level, do we have a category for "people who'd love to torture someone"? Because his policies definitely fit that. Researcher 17:25, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- I don't think we do yet, but you could always make one. Romney "double Guantanamo" is a candidate for that category. John McCain, of course, would be the poster boy for the only one of them who knows what it's actually like. And as far as the cat under discussion, yes, it's a fine line. But while Cheney may have spoken up, he didn't do anything to change any minds, did he? (Much like Bush Sr. becoming "pro life" in order to run with Reagan?) human
18:01, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- I don't think we do yet, but you could always make one. Romney "double Guantanamo" is a candidate for that category. John McCain, of course, would be the poster boy for the only one of them who knows what it's actually like. And as far as the cat under discussion, yes, it's a fine line. But while Cheney may have spoken up, he didn't do anything to change any minds, did he? (Much like Bush Sr. becoming "pro life" in order to run with Reagan?) human
- Firstly, apologies. I didn't realize this very topic had already been discussed. However, I have to say that a man who comes out in favor of the possibility of gay marriage despite the backlash against him from his supporters shouldn't be considered politically homophobic. However, as it seems that the mob has already ruled otherwise, I rescind the objection. On another level, do we have a category for "people who'd love to torture someone"? Because his policies definitely fit that. Researcher 17:25, 26 December 2007 (EST)
- That's why it says "politically homophobic". I honestly believe that in spite of his lack of a soul, he is not actually "personally homophobic". But we are critiquing the Vice President, not the father. It's a bit like Bush on race - he really knows that the hard line approaches to immigration reform are not the answer, but he and his party continue to pander to racist streaks in voters wherever it will help them. human
- In this case, though, it puts him on the less homophobic side of his party. (There were even a few wingnut calls for him resignation over not supporting the FMA). Moreover, in this case, "states rights" could only be a fig leaf for trying to increase homosexual rights, rather than restrict them. I personally feel he and Mary both should have done more, but I have a hard time calling him "homophobic" over it. Researcher 17:12, 26 December 2007 (EST)
[edit] "Debunktion Junction"?
When I was researching some references for the article, I came across this debunking blog called "Debunktion Junction." About half of their article on Dick Cheney is literally word-for-word what ours says, including external links and references. Does anyone know if the site (which describes itself as "a parody website and personal blog produced for the refutation of pseudosicentific bunk and ludicrous crank ideas") is trying to rip us off or whether or not someone here chose to rip the site off? Sam Tally-ho! 01:39, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- Looking around, the Rush article is ripped as well. ТyJFBAA 01:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- Assuming we aren't working closely with them, is this something we should be concerned about? Sam Tally-ho! 02:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- If they haven't attributed us, then yeah. And I saw no such thing. ТyJFBAA 02:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- I went looking, and found a bunch more. Opened a topic in the bar. Make of it what you will... Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- If they haven't attributed us, then yeah. And I saw no such thing. ТyJFBAA 02:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- Assuming we aren't working closely with them, is this something we should be concerned about? Sam Tally-ho! 02:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
[edit] The Valerie Plame affair
It seems relevant enough to include with a link to doxing; it's not as simple as just pulling a single trigger, like with the hunting incident. Fingers can slip once, having them slip a thousand times is unbelievable. Exiled Encyclopedist (talk) 16:58, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- So write something about it in the article. Slipping an unexplained link in the "see also" section & expecting the reader to know or guess what the connection is is just silly. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 17:11, 30 December 2014 (UTC)