Talk:Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ/Archive1
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[edit] Stub
This is a crappy, crappy stub. But I think I've overviewed the basics. I need to cite and get specifics but it's a massively complex topic. I quite like EP Sander's comment about how we have better evidence for Jesus than we do about Alexander the Great, but I'd have to read up on that more closely before including it. Please fix if you have the time/knowledge.
sshole 09:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Logical fallacies
This article is pretty heavily laced with logical fallacies and deliberately misleading rhetorical flourishes, not in a way that undermines the central thesis, but they are frequent enough that I am fairly dismissive of it when reading it (PJR style - one fallacy and it is game over). Is this being copied from another source? It reads like it is an apologetics piece (Atheist Apologetics, might be the next big thing). I might compile a list when I have time. - π 06:48, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is also unduly focused on what theologians & Christian apologists say on the subject rather than academic historians, & implies that apologists are the only group who would assert that Jesus was historical, which is very misleading. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The problem I have with this is that we have about as much historical evidence for the existence of Socrates and even less for Pythagoras. No current accounts, nothing written about them during their lives. The best we have with Socrates is from Plato written after his death. How do we know he didn't just create him out of cloth? Other source were oral histories, until they were written down by people born after he died. This article sets too high of a condition for the existence of Jesus than we would normally place. - π 11:28, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I know we do snark but we do need to keep to a reasonable standard. However, evidence for the lives of Socrates and Pythagoras is secondary to their body of work. In the case of Jesus his existence (and alleged resurrection) is primary; if the issue was just his moral teachings as reported in the gospels (rather than all the other stuff added by Paul) then there would be little to argue about.
ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD member 12:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- While the extent of the work is a good improvement on the first stub, I'd say it's very marred by some of the language. A bit too much "the alleged Jesus" and the "so-called Crucifixion" type stuff - is this what you mean by "deliberately misleading rhetorical flourishes" and "Atheist Apologetics"? Tightening that up would be good move. Also, in reference to what Pi is talking about above, I suggest an extended section putting the evidence into context of what else we know about other historical figures would go some way to addressing that issue. While if such a thing could be made extensive enough it could warrant an additional article of "evidence for the existence of various historical characters", which would be an interesting topic in itself considering how it would focus on appreciating the value of available evidence.
sshole 12:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is massively better than before, it is some of the writing style I have problems with. Other than that it is well on the way to being a highly brained article. - π 11:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- My advice would be to carefully scrutinize what PC added in the last few days. She is an awful writer, and bit of a dog-legged pony when it comes to her anti-Christianity. For Becathly (talk) 12:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is massively better than before, it is some of the writing style I have problems with. Other than that it is well on the way to being a highly brained article. - π 11:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't find the examples of Socrates and Pythagoras particularly great. There weren't any contemporary historians (independent writers) around to record their existence, except perhaps Herodotus, who was however more preoccupied with military history and the Persians. Even Alexander lived at a time which wasn't thoroughly documented yet. In contrast, what was going on in the early first century AD in Judaea (and other regions around the Mediterranean) is exceedingly well documented in comparison. So it makes much more sense to compare what we know of other historical figures who were living at the same time in the same general area, and how well documented their existence is by contemporary writers, and specifically independent sources or even antagonistic witnesses. --84.151.170.11 (talk) 22:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Socrates has four known contemporary sources (ie as in lived during his life time) supporting his existence--Plato, Xenophon, Aristotle, and Aristophanes. Jesus has NONE--the Gospels are anonymous accounts that are not even quoted from until the 2nd century CE.--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
- While the extent of the work is a good improvement on the first stub, I'd say it's very marred by some of the language. A bit too much "the alleged Jesus" and the "so-called Crucifixion" type stuff - is this what you mean by "deliberately misleading rhetorical flourishes" and "Atheist Apologetics"? Tightening that up would be good move. Also, in reference to what Pi is talking about above, I suggest an extended section putting the evidence into context of what else we know about other historical figures would go some way to addressing that issue. While if such a thing could be made extensive enough it could warrant an additional article of "evidence for the existence of various historical characters", which would be an interesting topic in itself considering how it would focus on appreciating the value of available evidence.
- I know we do snark but we do need to keep to a reasonable standard. However, evidence for the lives of Socrates and Pythagoras is secondary to their body of work. In the case of Jesus his existence (and alleged resurrection) is primary; if the issue was just his moral teachings as reported in the gospels (rather than all the other stuff added by Paul) then there would be little to argue about.
- The problem I have with this is that we have about as much historical evidence for the existence of Socrates and even less for Pythagoras. No current accounts, nothing written about them during their lives. The best we have with Socrates is from Plato written after his death. How do we know he didn't just create him out of cloth? Other source were oral histories, until they were written down by people born after he died. This article sets too high of a condition for the existence of Jesus than we would normally place. - π 11:28, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Another significant difference is that Socrates and Pythagoras, and their likes, were specialists in certain fields of knowledge and thus would have only been known to certain circles of society, and their existence itsef is not important in any way since we only care about their theories and thoughts. Most importantly, they never claimed popular fame and a following of multitudes. They did not perform miracles for all to see nor cause such natural sign as eclipses to occure. etc... All of these and more are claimed for Jesus, though, and it is very hard to believe that if such a person had caused such a stirring in a society at large and had the powers of the religious establishment, army and state thrown at him, there were no one who even found it necessary to mention his name at that time in any letter, a record of some sort, or even a carving on a cave wall. Biraqleet (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
[edit] Red herring?
The section Trial and Crucifixion is something of a red herring. How are accounts of his death related to whether he actually lived? Also I would not that the bible does not mention an eclipse, it says the moon turned to blood, you are attacking a strawman. - π 09:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Could be. I'm just trying to fix the text.--BobSpring is sprung! 09:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well Matthew tells us:
- 27:45 Now from noon until three, darkness came over all the land. ..... 27:51 Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks were split apart. 27:52 And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised. 27:53 (They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.) 27:54 Now when the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and what took place, they were extremely terrified and said, “Truly this one was God’s Son!”
- If the gospels are the prime source for the historical existence of Jesus then their failure to match up with historical records is presumably important.--BobSpring is sprung! 09:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- The gospels say a lot of things that we can assume probably aren't true - e.g. their accounts of miracles. This doesn't invalidate the hypothesis that JC actually existed & that some other aspects of the gospels may be more or less factual. Ideally, the stuff about the eclipse should be moved to the puzzling details section of the Jesus article rather than here. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 13:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's an open question about how much of the gospels are pure fiction. They were all written many years after his death and are pretty much unsubstantiated by any outside authorities. They clearly weren't written by the people who are claimed to have written them - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Why only discount the miraculous stuff?--BobSpring is sprung! 16:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- The trial and crucifixion are part of the very essence of the story. It's the core part of the Nicene Creed. Without that there still could have been some dude called Joshua bar Joseph but there's a certain amount of meh. Jack Hughes (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Not exactly -- the trial and crucifixion aren't the essence of the story; the resurrection is the essence. (Though to be fair, they were the prelude.) That was one the criticisms leveled as The Passion of the Christ -- it was entirely focused on the death of Christ, with the resurrection added almost as an afterthought. MDB (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well for classical Christian religions the son of God bit via the virgin Mary, the crucifixion to (somehow) atone for sins and the resurrection are pretty basic. But my question is: if we can easily dismiss the magical parts of the story why should we believe in the reality of any of it? Especially when none of it is independently attested to and those bits that can be checked don't match the historical record.
- I'm fully prepared to accept that somebody called Jesus existed and that the Christian religion began with him. But apart from that how can we know that any of the other good and wise sayings attributed to him aren't as invented as the magical stuff? I'd say that logically we can't.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:25, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Not exactly -- the trial and crucifixion aren't the essence of the story; the resurrection is the essence. (Though to be fair, they were the prelude.) That was one the criticisms leveled as The Passion of the Christ -- it was entirely focused on the death of Christ, with the resurrection added almost as an afterthought. MDB (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- The trial and crucifixion are part of the very essence of the story. It's the core part of the Nicene Creed. Without that there still could have been some dude called Joshua bar Joseph but there's a certain amount of meh. Jack Hughes (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's an open question about how much of the gospels are pure fiction. They were all written many years after his death and are pretty much unsubstantiated by any outside authorities. They clearly weren't written by the people who are claimed to have written them - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Why only discount the miraculous stuff?--BobSpring is sprung! 16:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- The gospels say a lot of things that we can assume probably aren't true - e.g. their accounts of miracles. This doesn't invalidate the hypothesis that JC actually existed & that some other aspects of the gospels may be more or less factual. Ideally, the stuff about the eclipse should be moved to the puzzling details section of the Jesus article rather than here. Wéáśéĺóíď
- Well Matthew tells us:
[edit] Bronze
So there. Dissent? - David Gerard (talk) 12:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I dissent. Now, what is it that I'm dissenting against?
sshole 17:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC):
[edit] Birther question
I have the urge to ask where is Jesus' long-form birth certificate but can't find the right place to add it.--BobSpring is sprung! 14:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)