Talk:Fat acceptance movement/Archive1

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[edit] Pun

'Shurely shome miskteak' - is not 'fat activism' an oxymoron?

Include hon. ment. of [1]

82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

"Fat fetishists typically find fondling of an overweight person's adipose tissue arousing." There are moments when I love Wikipedia's dry tone. — Unsigned, by: Vulpius / talk / contribs 04:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Here's a song about fat fetishism. Fishbone - Cholly.  :-D  Civic Cat (talk) 22:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

Only thing of real content in the article is the external link. Kill it with flames. ThunderkatzHo! 20:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree 'katz. Тyrannis 20:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Strong disagree. There are lots of "fat activists" out there promoting ideas that are horrible for peoples' health. It's a kind of woo that feeds on a whole mess of conflicting ideas our society has a about bodies. Gimme a couple of days (Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals is tonight, so right now is not an option) and I'll turn it into a real article. P-Foster (talk) 21:03, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable. ThunderkatzHo! 21:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Alright then. ТyYAUA 22:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
  • keep on mission with our goals, number 2, documenting the full range of crank ideas. RatMaster háblame 21:02, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Cept it's not really a crank idea. The fact is, healthy or not; biological, medial or personal habbits - fat people exist and they are categorically discriminated against. Especially women. (gee, Tanya isn't fat or anything, am I? grins). if you keep it, you can make it mostly crank, but you do have to address the part that is truth. EnAttendantGodot2 (talk) 22:06, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
no one's saying that fat people aren't discriminated against. but you must concede that fat activists often take things too far and try and claim that they're healthy. Think Afrocentrism v. Civil rights--"Shut up, Brx." 22:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
  • keep, because there is much BS to expand on, and it would be perfectly on-mission--"Shut up, Brx." 22:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I think we have to bring this back up for consideration. I see all sorts of claims that fat is inherently unhealthy, but not a single link to a study demonstrating that weight alone can be used as a predictor of health. Almost every real study on it that hasn't be funded by a weight-loss company has came to the conclusion that regularity of exercise, not weight, predicts health. The only link they've discovered between fat and health is generally fat people tend to not exercise as much (possibly because of it being generally more strenuous). This leads to a correlation between weight and health, but certainly not causation. --ShadowofLords (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we should also make a distinction between those that feel "being fat is fine" from those that argue "this is my body and it's beautiful" (thus separating the obese from the simply large-framed) from those that claim some sort of body-type discrimination (currently not a protected status in the United States, and occurs as there are stigma, e.g. "fat == lazy", etc.). It'd be bad to just lump all pro-fat/anti-skinny people together. Each of the different concepts these groups address (respectively: denialism, genetic diversity/popularized misconceptions, discrimination) are all, I believe, on mission. -- Seth Peck (talk) 21:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Try this as a start--"Shut up, Brx." 02:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
"Correlation does not equal causation" only says something about the causation, not the validity of the correlation as a predictive measure. Weight measurements are only ever supposed to be a population level proxy for health. Scarlet A.pngsshole 10:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
This article needs a serious cleanup; this is a pretty intense social issue. On one hand, some of it dismisses external factors for obesity, such as poverty limiting access to good diet and exercise, and on the other hand some of it raises awareness of social factors like this. On one hand some of it uses the 'born this way' to throw out behavioral causes and health risks linked to obesity, and on the other hand some of it raises awareness that not every person who weighs X amount may even be or look fat, and that body type is not 'too fat' if one is actually healthy. In addition, this article needs a sister article: 'thinspiration,' a popular code word among some women (and alarmingly, many teenage girls) for anorexia, and an 'empowering rebranding' of destructive eating disorders. Which is basically the opposite: dismissing the dangers of being very very thin or trying to become so. "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels," etc.±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRcritical thinking is the key to success! 12:37, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Pro-ana exists, and probably both need worked on simultaneously or perhaps merged so they can be tackled together. Both advertise unhealthy body-weights as lifestyle choices and dismiss ill health effects - while at the same time criticism of these states ignores, as you point out, external factors. The only difference is the direction on the weighing scales. I can't think of a name of the top of my head to combine them under, but merging both concepts may work best from an RW perspective. Scarlet A.pngssholeModerator 12:45, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Trying to think of a good name now. One big thing in these social conflicts is that it's not actually about weight; the issue is actually body image. Fat acceptance (at its best) tries to fight back against the never-ending wave of photoshopped-perfect women in media and advertising by trying to provide more normal and healthy role models at every weight. This is the key; the best of it (though not all of it!) does not try and push unhealthy weight as a lifestyle, merely acceptance of multiple body types and social struggles concerning them. The point being that it's very difficult to develop a sense of self esteem, which is often needed to become healthy in the first place, when one feels they're invisible, disgusting, or outside society's acceptable circle because of how one looks. Pro-ana, and its 'PR campaign' thinspiration basically turn around and say that it is possible to conform to society's expectations and all one has to do is not eat in order to change how one looks, and that it's okay to... which it's really really not. A big difference between them is that fat acceptance doesn't really advocate becoming fatter, where pro-ana demands one become thinner for the sake of image. Hmmm... ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRgarrulous en guerre 12:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
When fat activists talk about "fat" - how fat do they mean? Do the mean a few pounds above recommended weight? A few tens of pounds or can't get out of bed fat? Presumably they draw the line somewhere? Or do they argue that clinical obesity carries no risks?--Weirdstuff (talk) 14:04, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
It's more about body image than actual weight. Mostly on whole they want society to stop displaying what it doesn't consider optimal body size (have you ever seen a magazine that talks about how so and so GAINED SO MUCH WEIGHT and it's really not much at all, or an unflattering photo?) as stupid, lazy, ugly, or worthless. I doubt many of them would ever say that being morbidly obese is healthy. This isn't all of them, but they're more concerned with stuff like this: all of these women weigh 150 pounds. Society considers 120 pounds (the last I checked a cosmo) and a very specific body type to be optimal. Yet many of these women would be immediately cast in society as lazier, unhealthier, or all-round less valuable: clothing stores will not carry their sizes, movies may portray them as acceptable targets, etc. ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRcritical thinking is the key to success! 15:25, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Though still stubby, i broke this article into two groups; those advocating that we should look at body image and be more realistic in what is "normal", and those actually advocating that obese is ok. I think if we were to expand both of those sections, we'd have a great article. Green mowse.pngGodotBe informed. Vote. 15:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
OK , but in the first case I'd argue that it's not really "fat" activism then. More like "anti skinny imposition activism" or something catchy of that nature.
The second one sounds more like real "fat activism" in the same way as the "anorexia is a (healthy) lifestyle choice" movement.--Weirdstuff (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I guess for me, the point is, when you google "fat activism", you get both sides of this. the sane people saying "I'm fat, i'm healthy, it's all good", and the insane ones saying "I'm obese, i'm healthy it's all good". you have to address both in the article, cause the world at large makes one movement out of two very different movements, and labels them (or they self label) the same.Green mowse.pngGodotBe informed. Vote. 16:13, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Merger with Pro-ana

Since both of these are stubby but quite important issues, merging the content into a larger re-worked page would be a good start to creating a better article on body image issues generally. perhaps Body dysmorphia? I'm happy to put in some time on this but before I start pulling together ideas in sandbox, I just wanted to know if the mob is behind it or not. --Llegar a las estrellas¿Dígame? 21:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] HAES

I've been dicking around Reddit recently, and ran into something or another called Health at Every Size, or HAES for short.

Quoth /r/BodyAcceptance:

It was set up by a former psychologist into eating disorders, Linda Bacon, and utilised intuitive eating to ideally create a healthier attitude to food. It's mostly about removing the shame, guilt, emotional eating and binge/purge cycles through intuitive eating. I.e. being very aware of what you eat and your bodies needs. As part of this she also encourages exercise. What is so controversial about this is she says that regardless of your weight, you can be very healthy, including the morbidly obese, even those who can't stand because of their weight. She's not saying those people are healthy (but she's saying they definitely can be), but she is trying to divorce the idea of weight and health being a central connection.

It does not pass the smell test in the slightest. Leaving whatever politics that applies here aside, the notion that weight is not a factor in health is preposterous—apparently, the extra toll on the heart and joints, for example, doesn't real. Its methodology reads like a laundry list of pseudoscience tactics: vagueness, anecdotal evidence, claims of vague conspiracies by the medical establishment, manufactroversies, 's all good.

Now back to the politics. It's useless feel-good, empty words to replace hard sounding things like "diet" and "exercise", even though what it advocates is essentially diet and exercise. It's light, fluffy, euphemistic language for people who can't handle big, bad words. But do you really think calling it "health at every size" rather than "diet and exercise" will convince the overweight to lose weight? Doubt it.

I'd add a section on this, but giving my heavy views on the matter, I'd like to discuss it first. --|₹Λ¥$€₦₦ Red rose 02.svg Never got enough hugs as a kid 15:14, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I see your point and share it at almost every level, but I see one way where HAES could have an advantage: when people, for whatever reason, don't feel like weight loss is attainable. In that case, a person is likely to stay overweight so it makes sense to do things to optimize their health at that weight. Sure, they'd be better off being healthier and lighter, but healthy and heavy is better than unhealthy and heavy. I think some of what you see as feel-good and empty is just the spoonful of sugar (you know, to aid in the onset of diabetes) to help the weaker-than-desired medicine go down. MarmotHead (talk) 16:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

[edit] References

I just added some for what I know about. However, I have never been exposed to the second type of fat-activism, but I'm thin so probably less knowlegeable/more privileged... Anyway, I think it would be good to have some references for the claims of crankery, like in every other article, so it's all clear what kind of stuff they say to people who have less experience. ·Femilisk² 10:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Femilisk, im heavily involved in intersectional activism and the "second type" seems an awful lot like a strawman and I personally have never seen it in any serious manner, though i have seen frustrated fat activists get quite sarcastic, perhaps the folks who wrote that part couldnt tell the difference? --Laurelai (talk) 10:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Check up the blog This is Thin Privilege; they advocate almost all of the stuff listed. Ditto for the blog Fierce Fatties. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦ Red rose 02.svg Masturbation masturbation pies pies Brian Cox 13:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
As an addendum to the above, I'd also like to point out that the fat activism movement has been criticized by the medical community for the less-than-satisfactory medicine that goes around in those circles. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦ Red rose 02.svg A single piece of bread is just an open-face universe sandwich 13:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Short answer: not good enough. TITP is a troll blog or least trolled constantly by people on reddit's various pro-fat-shaming subreddits. If we are only talking about two websites, obscure and on Tumblr, (which get trolled) then the onus is on you to provide some substancial references as to how that constitues a movement! And on "fat activism movement has been criticized by the medical community for the less-than-satisfactory medicine that goes around in those circles", so give me references! That's all I am asking for! ·Femilisk² 13:43, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
For a general view, check out its section at Wikipedia. Here's Arya Sharma's criticism of the movement, for a more detailed view. (I'd conjure up more sources, but I have some classes to attend). |₹Λ¥$€₦₦ Red rose 02.svg "Ritsuko, the truth is[...]" "Huh. You liar" 14:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Plus if you actually look at the blog its fairly innocuous at least on the front page. --Laurelai (talk) 13:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if people here are aware that most fat activism is actually strongly anti-woo and anti-pseudoscience-- the entire diet industry and every woo-scam, diet fad, "superfood" and other hunk of trash operates that being fat is also being inherently unhealthy (yeah, no, go check out how many fat athletes there are) and inherently ugly-- especially for women. It's also against doctors using coercively anti-science methods (prescribing weight loss instead of actually treating patients, for example) and image-based media culture for the long-term psychological damage and disorders associated with the belief that "one who is fat is bad, is ugly, unworthy of love, can't wear clothes, is weak-willed and lazy, etc." Including deadly eating disorders. We need to be more critical on this page of the assumption that defending fat people is bad and that being overweight is inherently unhealthy... or that even if it IS unhealthy it doesn't make one a lesser person. There's enormous classist undertones in "thinspiration" and "fitosphere" and "anti-fat" communities that ignore that not everybody (especially in the USA!) has access to, the money to afford, the time to make, or the facilities to prepare healthy food. ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRsufficiently advanced argument still distinguishable from magic 13:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Or get enough exercise too, I add- tying into the culture of lengthening hours, unreasonable shifts, unpaid overtime, unfairly-compensated minimum wage jobs, and the unsafe nature of many neighborhoods and expense of going to the gym or finding a safe place and free time to exercise... these are all reasons that fatness is institutionally encouraged in the working and lower classes in the USA and destigmatizing it is the first step into actually changing anything or GETTING this stuff. The answer now to "We don't have the resources we need to be healthier, regardless of size!" is "You're all fat and lazy and you don't deserve anything until you get skinny and more "fit." ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRyeah, well you fight like a cow! 14:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Raysenn, the Wikipedia article is mostly neutral though with a section on criticism, our article is the opposite. Another reason this article is biased. The "doctor" I can reject out of hand immediately because it's not peer-reviwed. When you work in science, you know that blogging is a great way to get around actual research and just spout ideas without any checks (it's also a great way to communicate science, but it's not science in and of itself). Seriously, bring me something tangible, e.g., a journal article or reputatble website (e.g., NIH). I cannot take your criticism seriously as it stands. ·Femilisk² 14:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
PS: I read his various posts and he does seem to agree quite a lot with KnightOfTL;DR... Citing some good studies we should probably read and then, if useful, link to in this article: http://www.drsharma.ca/obesity-the-stigma-of-bariatric-surgery.html and http://www.drsharma.ca/does-social-stigma-drive-people-to-bariatric-surgery.html ·Femilisk² 14:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
PPS: He calls them "obesity deniers", it's almost as if he doesn't want to use the term body-acceptance. That makes me think he either doesn't know enough about the movement this article is about, or is talking about some fringe cases. Which leads us back to: this should be included but only as a very small section. ·Femilisk² 14:23, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Knight - I was *just* talking with a coworker about this. Both of us are large - medically unhealthy large, vs., "big" or socially large. Anyhow, both of us have gone into doctors (usually male, by the way) who use fat as the source of all medical evil. "My knees hurt" "Lose weight" (ok, probably valid, though it doesn't help me deal with my hurt knees). "My sinues are acting up" "lose weight!" huh??? "I have lots more headaches now, than I did ten years ago". "clearly, it's cause you've put on weight in 10 years. lose weigth". it's the strangest thing. And it gets old, fast. Cause while weight might impact many parts of our lives, including noses and headaches and body cramps, it's not the only reason or even best reason those things are happening, and "lose weight" is a 2-3 YEAR plan, **if** you can do it, and it doesn't fix the headaches, the bad knees, the heavy periods, etc. I don't comment on "fat activism" cause I'm torn. I really did get myself this way, in many ways. and there really is a fix. But at the same time, few people who toss out "lose weight" get how hard that fix is, or how easy it is to slip into being over weight, and from there, obese. So it's not like rape-shaming, but at the same time, it's not totally benign, either.One tin soldier (talk) 15:30, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
People do it to me too: put on weight and you will be healthy. Depends on the culture roughly, but the whole health-body direct pseudo-intuition pump is there. I added it to the article a few hours ago for that reason. ·Femilisk² 15:43, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
So I wonder if someone can help me out here. I'm not jumping in with an aim to criticize or anything; I'm just legitimately curious. I'm thin now, but I wasn't always that way. Over the past six months or so I've managed to shed about 55 pounds the healthy way (exercising and eating right while being sure to get the right nutrients and enough food to live). I started losing weight because of a scare involving my heart, and I'm undoubtedly healthier now than I was before. Reading the article, I'm confused as to what the underlying claim of "fat activism" is.
From my perspective, the correlation between body fat percentage and health isn't linear, but it's also fairly obvious that crossing the line into overweight and/or obese carries health issues with it. On the other hand, I also know that folks who are overweight are still people deserving of respect and proper treatment by society. I also know that excessively low body fat is bad, and that's why body builders can only maintain their gigantic muscles for brief periods of time during competition season. In a similar vein, eating disorders and diet woo are obviously also serious issues, as is the stereotyping against women in terms of the "right" body shape. Is this in line with what fat activism is, or is there more to this? - Grant (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
So, as you might gather everybody here, except Raysenn pretty much, thinks that body-acceptance is about not fat-shaming and not general-shaming. I added an article that further backs up why fat-shaming is bad. The body-acceptance movement is about accepting (see? not even loving) your body. Which as science shows, see the reference I mentioned, actually helps you to lose weight (or gain it if required!). ·Femilisk² 15:50, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I see. So the goal of the movement as a whole (as opposed to what may be representative from some Tumblr blog out there) is in line with encouraging body-acceptance and the adoption of healthier habits in general (as opposed to the perils of weight loss at all cost)? As someone who spends absolutely no time in the blogosphere, I wasn't sure how many of the article's claims were actually prevalent in the movement as a whole. I'm not particularly inclined to take a blogger or two as an example of what an entire movement entails, since in my experience, you can always find people espousing extremist views on any particular subject if you look hard enough. - Grant (talk) 15:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
No, not really. "and the adoption of healthier habits"... while that may be good for you (and probably for most of us, certainly myself) the issue isn't about encouraging anything. In fact, it's about telling everyone to sorta, fuck off, if you are not a doctor, and it's not your body. The idea that we "should" be doing something, or anything, is where it gets tricky. Yes, it is unhealthy, especially long term, to be drastically obese. But that's not really your problem, it's mine. And as long as we are telling people how they should look (again, not just fat, but that's the one that is the single driving force for lots of body shaming. if you are too thin, it's probably cause you fear being fat, for example) is where we cross lines. At the same time, I found it odd to read on Jezzi, that "the government even has a war against fat" is something bad. Cause kids need exercise and need to eat well. It's a complex issue, which i think is or should be the heart of our page.One tin soldier (talk) 16:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree that it's a complex issue. You're definitely right that kids need to exercise and eat well. I also know that it's not society's job in general to push for the average adult to change. What's your stance on friends stepping in for a chat about these sorts of things? Someone did that to me six months ago, and that's what prompted me to look into seeing a doctor about my health in the first place. He approached it in much the same way he would approach a friend who decided smoking was a good idea. Society as a whole certainly doesn't have the right to tell people how they should look.
Forgive me if my questions or perceived understanding here are wrong. I've never been one to let societal pressures have any say on what I do, and the friend who prodded me into seeing a doctor did so by referencing scientific papers suggesting that my habits weren't great for my health. Any misunderstandings on my part are borne from ignorance, not malice. In turn, thank you for your clarification. I think it's important that everyone have a broad understanding of social issues, and this is one such issue I didn't know about before seeing this discussion. - Grant (talk) 16:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Friends and family almost always get the "exception" pass to anyone. Cause they know you, they know your views on life, your views on healthy, on beauty, etc. I think we are mostly talking media, or those idiots who want to butt into your life when you order a brownie at dinner, even though you are over weight, or the doctors who just routinely say "lose weight" as if it somehow was the be all end all, rather than your specific doctor looking at your recent heart survey, or your lipids tests or whatever things they look at. For example, I'm a pretty casual dresser, and by casual i mean "boy like and without bra". When I went for job interviews, a friend pulled me aside and said "do what you want, of course, but society won't accept that in a paralegal". she was quite right, and for the sake of the interview, i changed.  :P One tin soldier (talk) 19:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Fair enough. I happen to pay little attention to the media as well, as I generally get my news through aggregators, and I don't watch television. That said, I know there's an implicit bias within media towards looking a certain way, and it shouldn't be like that. I'm also not one to criticize others (excluding friends and family) for their life decisions unless they personally affect me. I don't care if Joe Blow smokes as long as he doesn't proceed to blow it in my face. Still, this idea that there's an appropriate way to look and everyone should fall into that pattern is certainly a problem, and I'm all for eliminating those stereotypes from the media and society in general. From a purely hypothetical point of view, I wonder to what extent this could be applied elsewhere. There are certainly limits to how healthy one can be while being medically obese (as much as there are many competing definitions for that word). Do you personally think there's a point beyond which the health issues become significant enough to address in the media? That sort of thing exists with smoking, for example. Do you think there's a palpable difference between appropriate media behaviour for health crises in comparison to relatively harmless things (like dressing too casually for job interviews, for example)? - Grant (talk) 19:35, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Somewhere in this discussion there needs to be a distinction made between people badgering you about looks or people badgering you about health. People badgering you about looks don't really help anyone. But people badgering you about health first need to have the necessary expertise in matters of health, and then they may actually be helping you (of course, if they don't have the necessary expertise, they might just harm you by suggesting some unspecific diet that doesn't work on you). As for smoking, that is a bit different, as you are actually becoming a problem for other people through second-hand smoke. (If you shut yourself in somewhere and smoke, then fine, that's your problem.) Nullahnung (talk) 19:43, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Should society educate people about so-called "healthy weights" (as long as it's really healthy, and not just an invention of society or a restatement of society's pre-existing bias), yes. Should programs do news shows on the various effects of obesity (at different levels) on knees and backs, hearts, and lungs - of course as long as it's proven and not assumed (and as someone said above, much of what passes as 'science' in the disease of fat, is not really justified.) And doctors should always say "you need to stop smoking and lose weight" if you do need to. perhaps the difference is tone. "There are important health benefits to exercising daily" vs., "Obesity is bad for your health" and even more than "you shouldn't be fat or obese", or "fat people aren't healthy". One tin soldier (talk) 20:04, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you on the importance of health education. I also hold the view that regulation of harmful products (e.g. cigarettes, the amount of crap restaurants are allowed to jam into their food, etc.) is a good thing. I also think it would be very beneficial if the folks doing the educating were the doctors and government ministries who actually know what they are talking about as opposed to folks throwing health woo out there like your average media source (or even worse, folks like Dr. Oz and Oprah). I also think I agree with you on the idea of tone, and it makes sense. With some exceptions, the rough ideas of "eating healthy" and "healthy weight" remain the same for most folks, but the details and how best to approach them change from person to person.
Nullahnung, people can (and will) readily take up habits that will kill themselves, and you can say that's fine if these people are shut inside their houses smoking. On the other hand, what if said individual has minor children? The idea that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others is fine until you consider that there are many ways someone can be hurt by the actions of others, not just physically. - Grant (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
You're right. I shall change my statement to: If you're a hermit who has lost all ties to family and friends and lives in and out of society, only smoking where the smoke doesn't reach anyone, then fine. Nullahnung (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
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