Talk:Global flood/Archive1
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[edit] Rainfall rate
"the water would have been falling at a rate of 462 inches per hour"???
Above, we say the water was 22'6" deep. Over 40 days, that's only about 6" a day. One hell of a lot of rain, but not unimaginable. humanbe in 15:09, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
Yeah I know but the story is chalk full of inconsistencies, it also says the water coverd every piece of land. The inches number is based on Mt. everest. I will go quote mine the bible to clarafy my point on that. -Ĭ₠ŴΣĐĝё 15:15, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
- The phrase is 'chockfull of inconsistencies'. That's 'chockfull', see here, not 'chalk full', which makes absolutely no sense at all. And it's 'covered', 'clarify', and 'assumptions' and 'Ararat' (for later in this page). --211.75.91.21 12:15, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
Is it an imaginable amount of rain though? Is there even that much water on earth to cover that much space? (Never mind that people can't breathe all that well above a certain altitude, and we're covering Everest...) ŠтΈṜȳŁЁand...? 15:17, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
- No, there isn't that much water in reality. On Planet Conservative, however, according to wp:Hydroplate theory, the continental plates float on vast reserves of water, not magma (funny, I don't remember basalt floating...). ISTR someone said that after the flood, the water was 'somehow' launched into space(!), but I really don't care enough to cite it. --Gulik 15:32, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
- Just make it clear. Right now the article is inconsistent - first it says 22'6", then later 462 in/hr. As long as the assumtions behind both are clear, no harm. I could imagine 6" of rain for 40 days - and that would be one hell of a flood. (a local flood, of course). The only for there to be a "global flood" would be for there to be no high ground. Um, yeah. humanbe in 15:39, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Air pressure
Say, I'm looking at those varying flood depths and wondering, what happened to the air pressure? Would it have gone up as the seas rose and forced the air above upwards? Or would it have gone down as the effective height increased? Either way, how would this affect Noah? --Kels 17:07, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
- If it were possible that it happened, those questions could be answered. humanbe in 14:42, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
- The air pressure can be answered. At the surface it would have remained the same (assuming constant gravity), because all the air would still need to be around, and as close to the centre of gravity as it can get. The Avogadro Constant (or is it Boyle's Law?) might have to come into it for a fuller explanation. Totnesmartin 05:32, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- My (uneducated in this case) guess is that it would have gone down. If you increase the physical volume of the earth by globally raising the see about the tops of the highest mountains then, at any given point on the surface of the new ocean, the column of air above that point would be reduced. Consequently the pressure exerted by that column would be less. But, hey, I don't claim expertise on this one. --Bob_M (talk) 06:38, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- The air pressure can be answered. At the surface it would have remained the same (assuming constant gravity), because all the air would still need to be around, and as close to the centre of gravity as it can get. The Avogadro Constant (or is it Boyle's Law?) might have to come into it for a fuller explanation. Totnesmartin 05:32, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- yes, it would have gone down slightly because of the earth's increased surface area, but not that much probably, being only five miles further away from the centre of gravity already nearly 4000 miles away. Totnesmartin 07:11, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- This reminds me of a famous thought experiment about if you run a piece of string around the equator and then add a piece a yard long, how high above the ground would it be? Intuitively, most people say hardly anything at all but of course the maths says 6 inches. Anyway, the theory that the water was in caverns or something beneath the land and then the land collapsed with the water spewing out would mean that there was no net gain in diameter and the airpressure would remain the same. Genghis Khant 14:00, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Again I'm out of my league a little here, but is gravity the most important issue? If we do a thought experiment reduce the quantity of air in the atmosphere by two thirds but leave gravity the same then I would assume that would reduce the air pressure substantially. Indeed, if we took all the air away the air pressure would be zero with the same gravity. So isn't the quantity of air above you the most important issue?--Bob_M (talk) 12:55, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- That is correct, yes. However, as I said above, since this isn't a real "scientific theory", it's missing most of the supposed "facts" that could be used to answer such questions. If there was a clear, step-by-step theory of where the water started off, how it then flooded the world, and what happened to it afterwards (and by step-by-step I mean with numbers and stuff), then things could be calculated. In the end, the closer you work with "real numbers", the more catastrophic the conditions on earth (like a boil-off at the surface due to potential energy released as the water fell, etc.). I'm pretty sure talkorigins.org has clear refutations of every "version" YECs have pretended is their "science". Ditto, by the way, the animules on the alleged "Ark". humanbe in 13:04, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Hey man. I'm not saying it's right, it's obviously not. :-) --Bob_M (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Die, heretic! humanbe in 13:27, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- I'm an apostate not a heretic! If you're going to burn me at least get the paperwork right!--Bob_M (talk) 13:39, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Paperwork, scraperwork, who cares as long as we meet our quota. We got the wood, and nails or matches, the choice is yours... humanbe in 13:43, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Not so fast. Form zl0009 states that apostates can only be burnt after the inquisition has had them on the rack for over two days and they have recanted. If they have not recanted after that time they are to be boiled in oil. Meanwhile form ccl009 part B1 states that heretics deserve three days on the rack with death by boiling oil if they recant and burning if they don’t. While I have had my two days on the rack I have not recanted, and consequently demand my right to the boiling oil. Might I request organic vegetable oil? --Bob_M (talk) 14:01, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Paperwork, scraperwork, who cares as long as we meet our quota. We got the wood, and nails or matches, the choice is yours... humanbe in 13:43, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- I'm an apostate not a heretic! If you're going to burn me at least get the paperwork right!--Bob_M (talk) 13:39, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Die, heretic! humanbe in 13:27, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Hey man. I'm not saying it's right, it's obviously not. :-) --Bob_M (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- That is correct, yes. However, as I said above, since this isn't a real "scientific theory", it's missing most of the supposed "facts" that could be used to answer such questions. If there was a clear, step-by-step theory of where the water started off, how it then flooded the world, and what happened to it afterwards (and by step-by-step I mean with numbers and stuff), then things could be calculated. In the end, the closer you work with "real numbers", the more catastrophic the conditions on earth (like a boil-off at the surface due to potential energy released as the water fell, etc.). I'm pretty sure talkorigins.org has clear refutations of every "version" YECs have pretended is their "science". Ditto, by the way, the animules on the alleged "Ark". humanbe in 13:04, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Evaporation
Anyone want to try and figure out how long it would have taken for all the water to evaporate and for sea levels to return to their norm? I'm getting thousands of years, I think, but I'm also not really sure what I'm doing, or how to really do it. ThunderkatzHo! 14:44, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
- Interesting idea. Of course the standard creationist claim for that scenario is that the water sunk into caverns in the ground. - Icewedge 14:48, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Two or more
Why does the text claim there is a contradiction here? OK, the whole story's weird,and unbelievable - but I don't see the contradiction in this little bit of weirdness. The OT mentions clean and unclean animals - pigs, horses and camels were ritually unclean (technically because they did not have cloven hooves) and sheep, cows deer were clean. So seven of some and two of another.--Bob_M (talk) 04:49, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Why, oh why, oh why?
What the eff are so many otherwise obviously intelligent people doing, trying to discredit something that is so obviously a load of c**p Keep koi karp (in a pond) 13:31, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Guess some people get a kind of sado-masochistic kick out of it. Also there are plenty of people in the good old USA who believe it literally happened.--Bob_M (talk) 13:33, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- It's an interesting thought exercise, which shows us to be more intelligent than the flood-believers. And it beats bloody sudoku any day. Totnesmartin 14:31, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
Everyone's more intelligent than flood believers! Keepto the left (in the UK) 14:38, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
Right! Now: how many angels can get on the head of a pin? Keep koi karp (in a pond) 13:37, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
- Thomas sayz: None, or an infinite number. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 13:49, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Giants
The giants described in the Bible were intelligent and could talk so they would not have classifed as animals this means that Noah would not have taken them on the Ark, so how did they survive?
If it wasn't for Gen7:22ff, I would say you have your answer there. The whole 'giants/anakim/nephilim' stuff is all weird, though, so maybe that's why. -- מְתֻרְגְּמָן וִיקִי שְׁלֹום!
- Maybe they kept their heads above the water. Genghis Khant 01:33, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
- What about Gen 7:22? - Icewedge 15:50, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Animals
Lest anyone misunderstand me, I'm not arguing the point here, just playing devil's advocate. There is a certain assumption by the Flood naysayers that the distribution of animals was the same as it is now. This is not neccessariy true, koalas, llamae etc. may have been living in Palestine at the time of the Flood and eucalyptus might have been a native species. If you believe the kangaroo stories, koalas may have clung to roos to excape all the horrible stuff that was going on in the "Holy Land" at that time. Genghis Khant 17:29, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
- Eh, I am still working. But how do you propose dodo birds and wolves coexisted? - Icewedge 17:36, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
- Oh and there is no habitat where both a polar bear and a rattle snake can live in harmony. - Icewedge 17:39, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
- Polar bears are an anomaly. They can live on floating ice, just like penguins. Genghis Khant 01:16, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
- Oh and there is no habitat where both a polar bear and a rattle snake can live in harmony. - Icewedge 17:39, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
Something to also think about is the amount of food needed to feed the animals. An Elephant eats around 220lbs-440lbs a day. That is 80,300lbs for one elephant for the year (low number for argument sake). An Elephant's average weight is 16,538lbs so the food takes up way more mass than the elephant. With these numbers ~82% of the ark would be just for food storage. On that same note ever heard of a person lift thousands of lbs each day for care of the animals? Noah's children would have been huge! (Not to mention their caloric intake to sustain the muscle growth).--TimS 14:49, 13 August 2007 (CDT)
- Actually this is one of my pet worries about the situation before the last ice age. If mastodons were living and grazing in Siberia beforehand - just what were they living on? Genghis Khant 15:41, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Integrity of the Ark
How big was the biggest non-fictional wooden ship ever made? Bigger then Noah's, smaller...? --Gulik 11:37, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
- About 150 shorter that the Ark. - Icewedge 13:11, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
- A timber warship built for Ptolemy IV (around 200 BC), and described by the Roman historian Plutarch was 128 metres long (about 390 feet). That's about 40 feet less than the Ark. This ship, known as the Tessarakonteres, is recognized by the Guiness Book of Records as the world's Largest Human Powered Vessel. The obelisk barge of Queen Hatshepsut (about 1,480 BC, Late Bronze Age), is estimated at 95-140 metres long and 32 metres wide. The larger of these lengths is almost exactly the probable length of Noah’s ark (a little over, in fact). The 'Giant Ship' of the Roman emperor Caligula was 104 metres long (about 341 feet), and 20.3 metres wide (66 feet), with six decks. It displaced between 7,000 and 8,000 tons, and carried a crew of 700-800. More comparisons here. --211.75.91.22 12:28, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Yes, that's a fascinating article, and, of course, overthrows all the nay-saying that the article here has been throwing around. For instance, "The information in the Genesis flood record is reliable, and is proved so by archaeological findings. There was a real Noah, a real ark, and a real flood. There was a real judgment, sent by a real God." reference = the link left by the anon IP above. humanbe in 15:28, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Actually it doesn't overthrow 'all the nay-saying that the article here has been throwing around'. The article here is aimed directly at opposing the 'global flood' interpretation of the Genesis flood, whereas the article to which I linked presents a local flood interpretation of the Genesis flood. So the article to which I linked doesn't actually overthrow 'all the nay-saying' here, because it's not intended to. --211.75.91.22 15:55, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Sorry, I forgot the </sarcasm> tags... I did like the boat refs, though. By the way, that WP article above is pretty sketchy. I guess it is probably in the middle of being improved. humanbe in 16:13, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- I did assume you were being sarcastic, but my point stands regardless. Most of the 'nay-saying' here is perfectly legitimate, and I may contribute to it myself. If you want to improve the WP article above, then go right ahead (though sketchy or not, the facts remain). --211.75.91.25 20:05, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Ah, good, ok. No interest in that WP article, certainly not enough to try to fix it. And, yes, it seems to, vaguely at least, describe boats of a similar vintage and size. humanbe in 20:10, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- I don't think there's anything vague about the WP article. It refers to one ship, the Tessarakonteres, provides the historical reference for the ship (Plutarch), gives the specific dimensions, and identifies it as recognized by the Guinness Book of Records. Oh, I've just realized you might be referring to the 'WordPress' article, not the 'WikiPedia' article. In that case your objection is even less coherent, since the WordPress article is not in the least vague. It provides specific historical details of the Tessarakontes, Caligula's Nemi ships and giant barge, as well as the obelisk barge of Queen Hatshepsut. Specific dimensions are given, specific dates are given, specific historical and physical evidence is provided, and images are also given of one of the Nemi ships and of the obelisk barge of Queen Hatshepsut. A wealth of specific historical detail regarding relevant ANE maritime history and technology is also provided. There's nothing 'vague' about it.--211.75.91.21 22:14, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Nothing vague, but it is not exactly "ready for prime time". Half the boats it mentions are just descriptions. Anyway, I also don't know from whatever this "wordpress" crap is, or having my "objection" called "less coherent". That is not a nice way to discuss things. Do I know you from somewhere? You seem familiar... Anyway, the WP article I referred to was the one you linked to at WikiPedia. I have read many WP articles on many subjects, and that one is still embryonic at best by WP standards, so I trust it less. Anyway, the point of whether a boat of that size could have been built around that time is at least partly substantiated - has this been addressed in the article yet? I tend to only fix typos in it (that's my job here), I'm really don't have my panties in a bunch over whether the novel called Genesis has any resemblance to actual events or people, living or dead. humanbe in 00:01, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- The WordPress article lists six ships. One is described by Memnon. One is described by Plutarch. These two have no corroborating physical evidence. Two others are the Nemi ships, one of which still exists to this very day (and a photo is helpfully provided). A fifth is Caligula's giant barge, which also exists to this very day. A sixth is the obelisk barge of Queen Hatshepsut, which is not merely 'described', but has undisputed archaeological support. So it isn't true to say that 'Half the boats it mentions are just descriptions'. You could say a third of them are, at the very most. I'm sorry that you took offense at my description of your objection as 'incoherent'. It wasn't intended to be personal, it was simply a statement of the facts as they presented themselves to me. The fact that the WikiPedia article is 'still embryonic at best' doesn't change the fact that the information in it is both verifiable and accurate. I know, because I took the time to personally verify it myself, including reading Plutarch and the related article on the largest wooden ships ever built (which is far more developed, and contains numerous references). I don't believe that the point of whether a boat of that size could have been built is addressed in the article yet, but I'm not sure that's what the article is there for. Isn't the article to list objections to a global flood and ridicule every detail of the Genesis flood narrative, rather than to present a balanced assessment? This is RationalWiki, after all, it's not an NPOV encyclopedia. --Taiwan boi 02:23, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- Nothing vague, but it is not exactly "ready for prime time". Half the boats it mentions are just descriptions. Anyway, I also don't know from whatever this "wordpress" crap is, or having my "objection" called "less coherent". That is not a nice way to discuss things. Do I know you from somewhere? You seem familiar... Anyway, the WP article I referred to was the one you linked to at WikiPedia. I have read many WP articles on many subjects, and that one is still embryonic at best by WP standards, so I trust it less. Anyway, the point of whether a boat of that size could have been built around that time is at least partly substantiated - has this been addressed in the article yet? I tend to only fix typos in it (that's my job here), I'm really don't have my panties in a bunch over whether the novel called Genesis has any resemblance to actual events or people, living or dead. humanbe in 00:01, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- I did assume you were being sarcastic, but my point stands regardless. Most of the 'nay-saying' here is perfectly legitimate, and I may contribute to it myself. If you want to improve the WP article above, then go right ahead (though sketchy or not, the facts remain). --211.75.91.25 20:05, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Sorry, I forgot the </sarcasm> tags... I did like the boat refs, though. By the way, that WP article above is pretty sketchy. I guess it is probably in the middle of being improved. humanbe in 16:13, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Actually it doesn't overthrow 'all the nay-saying that the article here has been throwing around'. The article here is aimed directly at opposing the 'global flood' interpretation of the Genesis flood, whereas the article to which I linked presents a local flood interpretation of the Genesis flood. So the article to which I linked doesn't actually overthrow 'all the nay-saying' here, because it's not intended to. --211.75.91.22 15:55, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Yes, that's a fascinating article, and, of course, overthrows all the nay-saying that the article here has been throwing around. For instance, "The information in the Genesis flood record is reliable, and is proved so by archaeological findings. There was a real Noah, a real ark, and a real flood. There was a real judgment, sent by a real God." reference = the link left by the anon IP above. humanbe in 15:28, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- A timber warship built for Ptolemy IV (around 200 BC), and described by the Roman historian Plutarch was 128 metres long (about 390 feet). That's about 40 feet less than the Ark. This ship, known as the Tessarakonteres, is recognized by the Guiness Book of Records as the world's Largest Human Powered Vessel. The obelisk barge of Queen Hatshepsut (about 1,480 BC, Late Bronze Age), is estimated at 95-140 metres long and 32 metres wide. The larger of these lengths is almost exactly the probable length of Noah’s ark (a little over, in fact). The 'Giant Ship' of the Roman emperor Caligula was 104 metres long (about 341 feet), and 20.3 metres wide (66 feet), with six decks. It displaced between 7,000 and 8,000 tons, and carried a crew of 700-800. More comparisons here. --211.75.91.22 12:28, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
What probably should be noted is that none of the known wooden ships of this size were intended for use beyond very peaceful seas. An ark, on the other hand, would have to contend with major storms.--MountainTiger 02:33, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- That's a separate issue to whether or not they could be built, which is the issue questioned in the article. But last time I looked, the Mediterranean was not a very peaceful sea, yet Caligula's Giant Barge managed ok. The 324 foot schooner-barge 'Santiago' enjoyed a service life of just over 20 years on the Great Lakes (yet strangely this ship is never mentioned when large timber ships are raised - people only want to hear about the one which kept leaking, though this one didn't), notorious for storms and shipwrecks. It was finally sunk in a gale, but managed to survive through plenty of rough water. --Taiwan boi 03:55, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Palestine
The article bizarrely assumes Noah was in 'Palestine'. Not only does the Bible say nothing of Noah being in 'Palestine', 'Palestine' didn't even exist at the time of Noah. References to 'Palestine' should be struck out. --211.75.91.22 20:08, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Ironically, Palestine does not exist now, either. Where would you suggest the article should refer to the events occurring (or not)? Judea? The Middle East? humanbe in 20:12, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- I suggest the article state clearly that the Bible does not say where the events took place, but places them in an ANE setting. --211.75.91.21 22:15, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Would you mind explainging what "ANE" means? Signed, too stupid to figure it out and too lazy to google it, humanbe in 23:50, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Ancient Near East. --Taiwan boi 02:14, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- Thanks! Now if someone will edit the article to reflect that... humanbe in 02:21, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- I've made an edit using 'Mesopotamia', which might be more accessible to most people. --Taiwan boi 02:32, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- Thanks! Now if someone will edit the article to reflect that... humanbe in 02:21, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- Ancient Near East. --Taiwan boi 02:14, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
- Would you mind explainging what "ANE" means? Signed, too stupid to figure it out and too lazy to google it, humanbe in 23:50, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- I suggest the article state clearly that the Bible does not say where the events took place, but places them in an ANE setting. --211.75.91.21 22:15, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] If the Earth were the size of a cue ball
Would it be smoother than a cue ball? Yes.
Anyway, why would you attempt to argue using natural constraints what is obviously a super-natural event? 22:25, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
Um, maybe it's because 1. the world works according to natural constraints and 2. the "super-natural events" described in Genesis are just a bunch of bullshit that have always been used by religious and political zealots as part of an attempt to keep people ignorant and afraid of big, invisible vengeful man in the sky. PFoster 22:35, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
- Yeah, whatever. But why are you guys spending so much time on how the animals got to the ark? It is not rational to pursue that line of thinking. 22:38, 23 August 2007 (CDT) — Unsigned, by: 64.22.92.56 / talk / contribs
But it IS rational to assume that a guy built a boat big enough to....never mind...PFoster 22:40, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Fragile architectural structures
What happened to this section? --Taiwan boi 19:10, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Unexplained reverts
Is there a reason why everything I contribute to this article is simply wiped out in a revert? --Taiwan boi 20:58, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
- The racist sections make us, oh, a bit wary of you? Where's your writing plan? -- מְתֻרְגְּמָן וִיקִי שְׁלֹום!
- Excuse me? Which 'racist sections'? To date I've written only one thing which could possibly be construed as having anything to do with race (and was certainly not racist). Nothing else I've written did, and yet everything has been reverted. Explain please. --Taiwan boi 02:49, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- 1. if anyone wants to accuse someone of "racist" edits, please provide difflinks. I tried to research this and gave up. 2. Taiwan boi, you might be crashing into an article writer who thinks they "own" the article. Which is not good wiki-style, but can happen. Please, if anyone wants to post difflinks so I can follow these accusations, I'll be glad to be a
jerkjudge and say meaningless things about it. humanbe in 03:14, 31 August 2007 (CDT)- I'm happy to post my suggestions for future edits here for discussion. --Taiwan boi 03:49, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Well that oughtta work. I hate to see a contributor's work minimized. The strength of a wiki is in the collaboration, after all. humanbe in 04:04, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Stop channeling Ed, Human. It's scary. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 04:16, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- What I really need to know is the extent to which this Wiki is intended to be a parody or satire, and the extent to which it is trying to be taken seriously. I made some facetious edits previously to highlight some of the ridiculous statements already in the article, because I assumed they were facetious. But perhaps they were supposed to be taken seriously, and someone considered my satire to be vandalism. --Taiwan boi 04:38, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Well, our policy is here: RationalWiki:Project Whitewash/What is a RationalWiki article does that clarify things?--Bob_M (talk) 05:11, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I know RationalWiki is deliberately POV and makes no attempt to present balanced articles. I know it doesn't require sources to be cited, or statements to be substantiated with sources. I know it encourages satire, sarcasm and absurdism. My last few edits were exactly that. Yet they were removed. That's what I'm wondering about. --Taiwan boi 05:21, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Well, I was trying to answer your general questions about parody and satire and thought the link might help. I note that further up this thread that Human offered to review your posts if you give him the difflinks. :-) --Bob_M (talk) 05:28, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- It was helpful, with regard to confirming my understanding of RW. As for differences, see here. You will note that Icewedge helpfully reverted an error I had actually corrected. One section of the article referred erroneously to 'The contemporary English translation of the Bible'. There is, of course, no such thing. What was meant was 'The Contemporary English Version of the Bible', an actual Bible translation, and the specific translation quoted in this section of the article. Unfortunately, since Icewedge was ignorant of the fact that 'The contemporary English translation of the Bible' is a meaningless statement, and that 'The Contemporary English Version of the Bible', is an actual Bible translation and the specific translation quoted in this section of the article, he blindly reverted my correction so that the article is now in error once more. You have to wonder if people actually take the time to think about what they're doing, and carry out any kind of research. --Taiwan boi 05:39, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Well, I was trying to answer your general questions about parody and satire and thought the link might help. I note that further up this thread that Human offered to review your posts if you give him the difflinks. :-) --Bob_M (talk) 05:28, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- You might also want to browse this section RationalWiki:Help to find out a bit more about us. --Bob_M (talk) 05:13, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I know RationalWiki is deliberately POV and makes no attempt to present balanced articles. I know it doesn't require sources to be cited, or statements to be substantiated with sources. I know it encourages satire, sarcasm and absurdism. My last few edits were exactly that. Yet they were removed. That's what I'm wondering about. --Taiwan boi 05:21, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Well, our policy is here: RationalWiki:Project Whitewash/What is a RationalWiki article does that clarify things?--Bob_M (talk) 05:11, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- What I really need to know is the extent to which this Wiki is intended to be a parody or satire, and the extent to which it is trying to be taken seriously. I made some facetious edits previously to highlight some of the ridiculous statements already in the article, because I assumed they were facetious. But perhaps they were supposed to be taken seriously, and someone considered my satire to be vandalism. --Taiwan boi 04:38, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Stop channeling Ed, Human. It's scary. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 04:16, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- Well that oughtta work. I hate to see a contributor's work minimized. The strength of a wiki is in the collaboration, after all. humanbe in 04:04, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- I'm happy to post my suggestions for future edits here for discussion. --Taiwan boi 03:49, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- 1. if anyone wants to accuse someone of "racist" edits, please provide difflinks. I tried to research this and gave up. 2. Taiwan boi, you might be crashing into an article writer who thinks they "own" the article. Which is not good wiki-style, but can happen. Please, if anyone wants to post difflinks so I can follow these accusations, I'll be glad to be a
- Excuse me? Which 'racist sections'? To date I've written only one thing which could possibly be construed as having anything to do with race (and was certainly not racist). Nothing else I've written did, and yet everything has been reverted. Explain please. --Taiwan boi 02:49, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
OK, human, a difflink - I find the argument 'Noah could not have built the ark because he was not a white person', oh, I dunno, a bit close to the edge. -- מְתֻרְגְּמָן וִיקִי שְׁלֹום!
- Not to mention factually wrong. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 07:28, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- No it's not racist, not even close. And only part of it is wrong - the conclusion that Noah could not have built the Ark because he was a white person. It's actually a parody of an argument made in the article, that Noah couldn't have built the Ark because he lived a long time ago, long before clever white people figured out how to build timber ships over 300 feet long, but that even clever white people couldn't make those ships properly seaworthy, so Noah certainly couldn't have. I inserted it to demonstrate the lunacy of the argument already in the article, which is simply a thinly disguised version of the more obviously ludicrous argument I inserted. --Taiwan boi 20:32, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Hmm, let me see if can shed some random light here. Although we do encourage humor in our articles, I think we also are trying to be clear, and so if a joke could easily be misconstrued, it would need to be improved or removed. This isn't UC, we are trying to get a point across, not just make lots of random humor (well, ok, we do have "ACD:" for that) We do encourage citations, and if an assertion of fact is made, someone will end up asking where it came from. We just aren't as strict as WP on that - we don't instantly delete uncited additions. As far as the reverted edits, it looks like several in a row were made (by Taiwain boi), ending with the "white people" thing about boats. Then Icewedge didn't just remove that one edit, he rolled back to the version before Taiwan boi edited it. Well, was there anything good in those edits that should be restored? Perhaps that contemp. bible title thing? It's always good to make clear edit comments so people know what you are doing, of course. Perhaps the original author meant the simple phrase, uncapped, or perhaps they just forgot to capitalize. In the end (haha) we'll get it all right I'm sure. I often come to this article and fix typos and such, the primary author (Icewedge, not that he "owns" the article) tends to play fast and loose with English sometimes. Anyway, I hope these comments help make clear what happened and how we can move forward, gloriously... PS, sorry about that Ed Poor riff, AK! humanbe in 16:11, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
- I inserted a number of arguments which were parodies of arguments already existing in the article. The article contains factual errors, as well as facile arguments which are so poorly constructed that I can imagine some Christians wanting them to stay there, just so that they can laugh at how pathetic atheist arguments against the Genesis flood narrative are. The Wiki article does a much better job of detailing the problems with a global flood, and a lot of this RationalWiki article has nothing to do with a global flood anyway (the part about the rainbow is completely irrelevant to the issue of a global flood, for example). A number of the arguments in the RationalWiki article were so absurd that I thought for a while they were deliberate parodies of Young Earth Creationist arguments, but to my horror I finally realized that they were intended to be serious. If this article is intended to be serious and intended to be factually accurate, it is going to need a major overhaul. If it's supposed to be a hilariously idiotic parody of Young Earth Creationist arguments, using all the same logical fallacies, poor reasoning, and lack of proper research, then I would leave it as it is. Which is it to be? --Taiwan boi 20:32, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- If you want to improve the article, improve it. If you're not sure what the improvement should be, discuss the flaws here in talk. Adding more junk to what you think is junk doesn't help anyone; making it better helps us all. Goatspeed!!! Oh, and by "Wiki", you mean Wikipedia, right? Clearer abbr. is WP. humanbe in 20:47, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- I inserted a number of arguments which were parodies of arguments already existing in the article. The article contains factual errors, as well as facile arguments which are so poorly constructed that I can imagine some Christians wanting them to stay there, just so that they can laugh at how pathetic atheist arguments against the Genesis flood narrative are. The Wiki article does a much better job of detailing the problems with a global flood, and a lot of this RationalWiki article has nothing to do with a global flood anyway (the part about the rainbow is completely irrelevant to the issue of a global flood, for example). A number of the arguments in the RationalWiki article were so absurd that I thought for a while they were deliberate parodies of Young Earth Creationist arguments, but to my horror I finally realized that they were intended to be serious. If this article is intended to be serious and intended to be factually accurate, it is going to need a major overhaul. If it's supposed to be a hilariously idiotic parody of Young Earth Creationist arguments, using all the same logical fallacies, poor reasoning, and lack of proper research, then I would leave it as it is. Which is it to be? --Taiwan boi 20:32, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
[edit] reverts part 2
I made straightforward, non-satirical edits to the article previously, when I first arrived here. They were (predictably), reverted. That's when I received the impression that the article was supposed to be satirical rather than serious. No explanation was given for these reverts (as seems to be typical here). Yes, but 'Wiki' I mean 'Wikipedia'. I find that 'WP' is often confused with 'WordPress'. I'll try making factual edits to the article, and see how promptly they are reverted this time. I'll suggest they won't last 24 hours (don't worry, the Wikipedia article on Noah's Ark is the same - you can even show them that a statement made in the article has no support whatever and is contradicted by authoritative sources, and they'll still insist it stays). --Taiwan boi 21:15, 4 September 2007 (CDT)--Taiwan boi 21:36, 4 September 2007 (CDT)--Taiwan boi 21:36, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- OK, well, the two edits you just made were to delete two complete sections. I'm not going to "stand up" for their accuracy, etc., but, you make no edit comment, you don't copy them here and explain the issues for discussion... is there any wonder your edits get reverted? humanbe in 21:25, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Make that three deleted sections. You undertand I'm just going to roll these all back, if no one else does, right? Why not at least quote what you have issues with here and discuss the improvements/corrections/logical issues with, er, the rest of the contributors and editors who are interested? humanbe in 21:27, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Good grief, give me half a minute! I just spent the last five minutes writing up several paragraphs explaining those deletions in detail, and now I can't post them because you've changed the page while I was editing it. Now I have to start again. Before you go off all guns blazing, give me at least 5 minutes to explain my edits. --Taiwan boi 21:36, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Make that three deleted sections. You undertand I'm just going to roll these all back, if no one else does, right? Why not at least quote what you have issues with here and discuss the improvements/corrections/logical issues with, er, the rest of the contributors and editors who are interested? humanbe in 21:27, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
For future reference, if there's an edit conflict, scroll down to the bottom of that screen, and your stuff should be in the edit window at the bottom. Just cut & paste into the upper edit window, and it should go through fine. That's what I usually do. --Kels 21:46, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- I did that several times before it actually worked. It just kept telling me there was an edit conflict, without updating the page. --Taiwan boi 21:49, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Sometimes that happens, very frustrating, I know - especially if you were editing a small section of a large page. Another way around it is to, as I think you did, create a new section. It might read a bit odd, but never edit conflicts. Oh, and re: your comments in the new section, thanks. Hopefully whoever is "invested" in what is in those sections will chime in and defend them or discuss new/better wording. Are there any other weak areas in the article you can suggest making stronger? humanbe in 21:57, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
[edit] Recent edits
I have removed the following sections:
- Sons of God: This section referred to the Contemporary English Version of the Bible using incorrect nomenclature. It also made an entirely spurious argument by selectively quoting this translation of the Bible without explaining why this particular translation is superior to others. The fact is that the translation 'supernatural beings' found in this translation is not found in the majority of standard English translations over the last 400 years. It is a gloss, and a fringe gloss at that. The entire argument made in the 'Sons of God' section relies on the 'sons of God' being 'supernatural beings', something which the Bible never says. Making an argument from a single Bible translation which contains a gloss not found in any standard reputable modern Bible translation is not only very sloppy research, it commits the fallacy of selective quoting. I note that the article does this quite a lot. There are about four or five different Bible translations being quoted, each one in order to justify a particular 'spin' on the Genesis narrative.
- Human lifespan: Same problem as above. Once more a loose paraphrase of the Bible has been quoted (not even a translation), and once more this paraphrase is being uniquely quoted in the article (apparently only in this place, and only because its translation creates an apparent contradiction in the text. Once more there is no explanation given as to why this paraphrased version of the English Bible is authoritative, and the majority of standard reputable modern English translations are ignored (undoubtedly because they do not contain this 'contradiction'). This is sloppy research and selective quoting.
- Giants: This section claims that since giants lived after the flood, they must have survived the flood and been carried aboard the Ark. This commits the logical fallacy of the non sequitur. There is no necessity whatever for giants to have survived the flood. Giants can be born to non-giants, and typically are. This argument was based on completely faulty reasoning. Another error it commits is in claiming that the statement made by the men of Israel that the Anakim made them feel like grasshoppers really means that the men of Israel were claiming that the Anakim were so large that the physical difference in proportion between the Anakim and the men of Israel was the same as the physical difference in proportion between a grasshopper and a fully grown human adult. This is nonsense, as the text says no such thing
If I have my way, the 'Rainbow' section won't last long either. It contains the wholly unsubstantiated claim that the ancient Israelites thought that the rainbow was a physical object. It also starts by saying that the Bible seems to say that God created the rainbow after the flood, and then immediately continues on the basis that this mere assumption is a statement of fact. The Bible nowhere says that God created the rainbow after the flood, and early rabbinical exegesis says no such thing (the earliest rabbinical exegesis says that the rainbow was already around from the beginning of creation). --Taiwan boi 21:36, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Does "your way" in any way attempt to debunk the (ridiculous) idea that the entire world was flooded? Just curious... because the way this article reads, it is more about (as far as I can tell) various contradictions or logical weaknesses in the biblical story, rather than being a more scientific refutation. And, if it does wilfully quote mine by using too many "versions" of the bible, that might be weak. Of course, they were all the pure and given word of God in their day. So maybe the ever-changing truths in the many bibles needs to also be addressed. Either that or we all learn Greek & Hebrew (& c.) and hope we have the best extant rewrites of the "originals". humanbe in 22:01, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- My 'way' simply involves correcting factual errors in this article. I have no intention of including in this article any evidence that the Genesis flood narrative is plausible, since that would violate the stated aim of RationalWiki as I understand it (which is to attempt to deny that any Biblical narratives are plausible). On the other hand, I believe I've already made it clear that I'm perfectly happy with the idea of debunking the concept of a global flood, which is an event I believe has never happened (nor do I believe the Bible records a global flood, but that's another issue). Yes, the article as it stands is more a 'contradictions in the Bible' article in the usual limpwristed style, rather than an article which is directed towards an examination of the Genesis flood narrative.
- As I have demonstrated, the article does deliberately quote mine in several places. The very fact that so many different versions of the Bible are quoted, the very fact that paraphrases are quoted rather than translations, and the very fact that minority renderings of the text are quoted, is all indicative of this.
- No, they were not 'all the pure and given word of God in their day'. Modern paraphrases and versions are specifically identified in their introduction or forward as being paraphrases or versions, and they do not claim to be in the same position to present the text as actual translations (a 'version' or 'paraphrase' is simply a re-rendering of an existing English text, it is not a translation from the original languages). Not only that, but most modern Bibles contain footnotes or marginal notes explaining various translation or rendering decisions which have been made, acknowledging ambiguities and/or alternative translations/renderings (when these passages are quoted, it is honest to include these footnotes or marginal notes). This has nothing to do with 'ever-changing truths', an idea which (with your 'we all learn Greek & Hebrew' comment), is an unfortunately common misunderstanding of the entire field of textual criticism and translation. --Taiwan boi 22:55, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
- Perhaps the contradictions part should be relocated to different articles but I fail to see how this is quote mining. The text is not shown in a single block with the proceding verses included because that would impair the general readability of it. If you can expand the context for any of those quotes and demonstrate how they are being quote mined then they should be removed from the article, if you cannot please keep your alogations of quote mining to your self.
- As to using multiple translations some are just clearer than others.
- PS. frogive my spelling I am gramaticaly impared. - Icewedge 00:32, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
- Let me explain to you (again), why it constitutes quote mining. It constitutes quote mining because it is a particular form of selective quoting. Not only is it a form of selective quoting, it is a particularly insidious form of selective quoting which requires sufficient deliberation to warrant suspicion of intentional misrepresentation. I am not objecting that sufficient context hasn't been quoted. I have made my objections quite clear (please read them).
- It's all very well saying that some translations are clearer than others, but the whole issue is that when you quote one translation over another on the basis that you believe it is 'clearer than others', you have to actually prove that it is in fact 'clearer than others' in the place being quoted. If you don't have any idea of how to go about this, then I suggest you find out before you try this again.
- I suggest you read what I wrote. What the article does on a couple of occasions is quote from Bible paraphrases which render the text in an unorthodox manner which is radically different to the vast majority of standard modern English Bible translations. That should send up warning flags already, but if that wasn't bad enough no justification whatever is made in the article for such selective quoting.
- I note that all of my changes have been reverted, despite the fact that not one of my objections has been addressed. This demonstrates that the 'RationalWiki' is not as open minded as it claims to be. But I already knew that. --Taiwan boi 20:14, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
- I believe part of the point of the article to refute biblical literalists. Which, I think Taiwan boi just did a very nice job of. There's a decent article in what he wrote above, can anyone think of a good title? Then we can copy the good stuff over there. PS, forgive me if I misinterpreted "boi" to mean "male". humanbe in 00:36, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
- Thanks, and it's ok I am male. --Taiwan boi 20:14, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
I've made him an essay space (see below) Susan Jayne Garlicktalk 00:48, 5 September 2007 (CDT)