Talk:Holocaust denial

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Editorial notes
  • Documentary and physical evidence for gas chambers
  • Denier arguments concerning gas chambers - Prussian blue, ash disposal etc, and response
  • Deniers' disapproval of some survivor testimonies, and response
  • Deniers' illicit comparisons of Nazi Germany and Israel, and response Strom 02:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Remove, redirect or "fill-in" redlinks
  • Copy-edit π 03:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Article needs minor cleanup, e.g. removing all of the red links, perhaps a couple more images(?), and a review of major supporting articles to reach gold. A few more external links wouldn't hurt, either. The Heidelberg Kid (talk) 18:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

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[edit] Mentally ill

Particularly when it focuses on "how the Jews faked it all," Holocaust denial is a form of anti-Semitism often embraced by bigots who are too cowardly to admit that they wished that Hitler finished the job.

This sentence is proof enough that the author of this article is mentally ill.— Unsigned, by: 80.141.8.228 / talk / contribs 15:28, 8 June 2014‎ (UTC)

[edit] Cover story?

This is listed in Category:Cover story articles, but there's no Template:Cover abstract/Holocaust denial and the talk page is missing Template:Cover. What's going on here?--ZooGuard (talk) 11:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Somehow, I bet the Jews are behind it. --Ymir (talk) 12:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
What happened? RecklessNoiseSymphony added gold to the page and to the talkpage without discussion. FuzzyCatPotato™ (talk/stalk) 14:34, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
It was in gold/cover status previously but downgraded circa 2010 due to quality issues (see archive). WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Concentration Camps

I'd just like to point out a bit of a different sort of denialism. It's about foreign media frequently using the phrase 'Polish Concentration Camps' which suggests the camps were build and ran by Poles. While it is no secret a lot of people joined the Jerries side to avoid, you know, horrible death, using the aforementioned phrase shifts responsibility and 'whiten' German history (mostly because Polish government is unlikely to fight it). For a comparison, it's like saying 'Austrian leader Adolph Hitler'. Technically of Austrian descent, he was hardly an 'Austrian leader'. More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_controversy 213.48.106.145 (talk) 09:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the 'Polish' just meant to point out that the camps in question were located in Poland? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 20:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
It is, but I think the point they're trying to make is that people may take it out of context somehow or they may have taken it out of context themselves, as calling them 'Polish Conentration Camps' removes Germany from the equation grammatically, since it is no longer mentioned. People who are aware of the holocaust would (probably) know that there were concentration camps in Poland, but to the unlearned, it could be meant to mean that Poland also had concentration camps free of German control. Seems like just a grammar flub to me, though it would be more precise to say "German-operated concentration camps within Poland" just to clear any confusion. The Cautiously Capricious Crowley Alliteration is Always Appreciated 09:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen any examples where 'Polish concentration camps' omitted references to Nazis/Germans. It's like discussing U.S. military bases worldwide and referring to the 'Japanese bases' and then worry that the audience might think you're discussing bases of the Japanese military and not U.S. bases in Japan. The only ones likely to make such a "mistake" vis-a-vis the KZ and death camps are probably Nazi apologists and they don't do it accidentally anyway. The Nazi camps in Poland tend to be single out because most of the death camps[wp] (unlike the KZ camps such as Dachau[wp]) and the most "industrialised" ones (and thus those with the highest number of deaths) were located in Nazi-run Poland (whether the annexed parts[wp] or the Reichskommissariat Ostland[wp]). Contrast with Nazi or Nazi-puppet camps elsewhere, such as Jasenovac[wp], Theresienstadt[wp], or Buchenwald[wp] to name but a few. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:49, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
The reason I brought it up is because a lot of people already believe the camps were ran by Polish people. As you have described above, ScepticWombat, the articles themselves do quote the German origin of the camps, but just as there are people saying 'if we came from monkeys how come there's still monkeys out there?' there will be people one day (50-100 years from now) saying 'if those camps were ran by Germans, why are they called Polish concentration camps?'. Poland is particularly vulnerable to such attacks as you can see by the 2010 plane crash that killed Polish president - let me remind you that the wreckage is still on Russian soil (or was recently retrieved - 5 years after incident). Another thing is that from your perspective, it's just some random error someone might blow out of proportion to falsification of history, but if you read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_controversy you will see actual Holocaust survivors describing the use of the term as 'insulting' and ' intentionally or unintentionally – it shifted the responsibility', which in my opinion, cements the controversy's position on Holocaust denialism page. 213.48.106.145 (talk) 09:46, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Physical evidence

This section is uncited. What specifically is the physical evidence? 58.141.99.113 (talk) 19:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Harr harr, aren't we the funny one. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 20:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Why not use your Rationalpowers on this one:
"Sturdy Colls said: 'All the history books state that Treblinka was destroyed by the Nazis but the survey has demonstrated that simply isn’t the case. 'I’ve identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres.' The programme’s presenter says that the pits contain the burnt remains of thousands of bodies. The forensic archaeologist, who has now presented her findings to the authorities responsible for the memorial at Treblinka, added: 'I really hope this is the first stage in a long-term programme to seek out those hidden graves of the Holocaust.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087735/British-archaeologist-discovers-fresh-evidence-mass-graves-World-War-Two-death-camp-Treblinka.html
Any problems here? 1.233.112.168 (talk) 08:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Why not ask the good forensic Doctor about it directly.
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/staff/profiles/cs30.jsp 1.233.112.168 (talk) 08:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Since you're obviously able to find (additional examples of) the evidence yourself, what was the point of ref-tagging the article and your earlier "just asking questions"-stick? This is a wiki, so if you like some references just add them. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I would question a pile of shoes constitutes physical evidence. I would question all of the "evidence" I have seen presented, especially this GPR ash and bone pit. Can I write that? Of course I am not going to add questionable evidence unqualified by skepticism. Unlike some I have no a priori agenda. 203.226.200.88 (talk) 09:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
If you're the same BoN that posted the Mail article and the OP, I'm rather confused:
  1. First you ask for evidence.
  2. Then you ridicule those saying that the evidence is so overwhelming that demanding specific citations is rather pointless.
  3. Then you cite a news story providing evidence and specifically countering Holocaust denialist crap pertaining to Treblinka (okay, it's from the Daily Mail, but still).
  4. Then you write that you "would question all of the "evidence" I have seen presented, especially this GPR ash and bone pit" and ask whether you can put this in the article.
WTF? You ask for evidence, find and post an example of said evidence, and then claim that it's not evidence?!?! Even for Holocaust denial that's pretty weird. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
What are you so surprised about? Everyone knows the "evidence" is just planted by the Zionist World Government, so the existence of evidence of the Holocaust is proof the Holocaust was made up. You're really underestimating how loopy conspiracy theorists can get. --Ymir (talk) 15:25, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, but what surprised me was a Holocaust denier citing an article specifically debunking denialist arguments vis-a-vis Treblinka as if it somehow supported denialism, and then subsequently disavowed the article altogether - that's really odd.
I think the problem was that the BoN cited the specific paragraph above in an attempt to quote mine (I only realised that later). Once I reread the paragraph with my "Holocaust denialist-coloured glasses" on, I think our denialist BoN (Mikemikev?) latched onto the final sentence: "I really hope this is the first stage in a long-term programme to seek out those hidden graves of the Holocaust" and interpreted it as if it meant that no one have found any Holocaust graves until now. This is clearly bunk, and only a staunch denialist would even read it that way, whereas the saner section of humanity can easily identify the intended meaning: That some Holocaust graves remain hidden. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The article explains the "Holocaust graves" this way: "As Jewish religious law forbids disturbing burial sites, she and her team...have used ground-penetrating radar". What technology allowed them to remotely determine the jewishness of the contents of the pits? was it Dowsing? Typical of Holocaust "investigations" is unidentified remains and belongings being jewish by decree.82.161.30.183 (talk) 15:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
  1. Someone IS down there.
  2. Based on masses of other evidence, some are likely Jewish.
  3. Therefore, it was decided not to use the old-fashioned shovel.
Which part of this discredits the investigation? A grave is a grave, excavated or not. PacWalker 15:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Avoiding the very piece of evidence that could prove your assumptions wrong is not what "scientific investigation" is about. Doing it on religious grounds is the cherry on the turd. 82.161.30.183 (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, but real science has shown radar to be real and fairly reliable repeatedly. It's not ignorance of evidence at all; it's looking without touching. PacWalker 16:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Radar has many uses indeed, and telling the jewishness of a bone under 17m of dirt is the latest application discovered by the G-d's chosen.106.187.37.189 (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Obviously, radar cannot by itself show that the decedent was Jewish, but when results from radar scans match up very nicely with accounts that label the deceased there buried Jewish, well... Conclusion obvious, yes? PacWalker 16:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
So how does the radar signature of a jew better match the "accounts" than the radar signature of a non-jew?106.187.37.189 (talk) 16:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
IT DOESN'T. You're missing the point. Is there a reliable historical record of wholesale slaughter by the Nazis that DIDN'T involve any Jews at all? PacWalker 16:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
History is ureliable, it isn't Science. Is there any reliable PHYSICAL record confirming the accounts by the victors? Corpses deemed "jewish" on those same accounts, rather than on physical evidence, don't count.82.161.30.183 (talk) 17:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
(ignoring the errors inherent in distinction b/w observational science and experimental) How about the Jews (and others, but certainly many Jews) found in these weird camps that *just happened* to generate piles of bodies when said camps were removed from Nazi control? PacWalker 17:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Also, if WHOIS returned accurate information, what you are doing is illegal in your country. Just a thought. I don't condone that law necessarily, but thought you ought be aware. PacWalker 17:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC) (overwrite of this comment below)
Removal from Nazi control was achieved, among other things, by cutting the camps from their supplies. The starvation visible in those bodies fits the effects of a siege. It was intentional, yes, the Americans did it.106.187.37.189 (talk) 17:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
MAJOR discrepancy: many camps were abandoned in a retreat, which is not the same as a breakthrough of an encirclement. PacWalker 17:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)t
I thought YOU were the one not aware, judging by your "reference needed" below regarding jail time for exposing inconsistencies in the Holocaust narrative. You were just feigning ignorance I see.106.187.37.189 (talk) 17:29, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
From the horse's mouth: "“The physical evidence hasn’t really been looked at,” said Sturdy Colls, who is frequently asked to justify the relevancy of documenting new evidence about “a period of history we know so much about,” she said.". Knowing "so much" without any physical evidence is a common trait of creationists and holocaustist. 82.161.30.183 (talk) 22:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
There's amper evidence of false testimonies, false survivors and so on. See Enric Marco, RoseMarie Pence, Herman and Roma Rosenblat, Misha Defonseca ... also the "reduced head" of a purported jew was a piece from a pice from a museum, the "jew skin lamps" were made of paper, and so on and so forth. This is what happens when the victors write history and truth-finding is forbidden by law.145.64.134.245 (talk) 10:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Exactly 1 ampere? I thought we measured bullshit in volt-metres. PacWalker 10:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
In Holocaust narrative, bullshit is measured in jail years for exposing it.145.64.134.245 (talk) 12:41, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
[citation needed] PacWalker 13:05, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Consider that I have transcluded [citation needed] all over that and respond appropriately. PacWalker 10:08, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Lovely to see a(nother) BoN posting (more) denialist crap on the 75-year anniversary of the Wehrmacht's invasion of my home country... ScepticWombat (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Typical denialist/conspiracy logic: Because some Holocaust impostors exist, all Holocaust survivors are impostors. Seriously, with such analytical skills, how do you even manage to finish grade school? Let's try some similar examples:
  • Because some prisoners turn out to have been wrongfully convicted, all prisoners are innocent.
  • Because some people lie about some things some of the time, all people lie about everything all the time.
It's essentially the science was wrong before argument applied to the Holocaust.
Likewise, the lamp story has never been a central piece of evidence for the Holocaust, so it goes into the same bin as the impostor argument (both are red herrings). As for the supposed existence of a shrunken head[wp] (or that's what I assume is meant) of a Holocaust victim, I've never heard of it before, but that also goes into the bucket of red herrings, since no one but our BoN is claiming that it is a central piece of evidence for the Holocaust. Two phrases favoured by PacWalker are applicable to our BoN Holocaust denier(s): [citation needed] and try harder. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
The central piece of evidence of the Holocaust is ash and smoke, which is precisely what people do to any evidence they want destroyed.106.187.37.189 (talk) 16:46, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Define central. You seem to be using it far differently than most English speakers. PacWalker 16:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Define Holocaust. You seem to be using it far differently than most English speakers (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt").106.187.37.189 (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
>differently than English speakers
>Greek definition
>is of teh failingz
PacWalker 16:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I have to confess that I'm not a great expert on this but can't you still visit the camps and view the gas chambers and the ovens? Apart from everything else - isn't this physical evidence?--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 18:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you can take a goddamn tour at all of the major camps. You can look at well substantiated physical evidence in the US by visiting the national holocaust memorial museum. You can visit their web page and look at images if you're that lazy. The trivial ease of answering this question is why these users should be banned. They know what they're saying is bullshit. They know how they could check. They're not interested in checking. Just trolling. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 18:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I still remember back when I was around 16 years old and visited one of the camps, though it wasn't even one of the death camps, but the Nazi "exhibition camp", Theresienstadt.[wp] Holocaust denialists aren't just ill-informed, there deliberately and wilfully ignorant in that they can't simply have missed the information, but have actively chosen to dismiss the literal and literally mountains of evidence. ScepticWombat (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
So ... the deniers claim the Jews were there on holiday or something?(I'm sorry if this sounds flippant, I'm just trying to understand the mindset.)--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:33, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
First of all abd in the absence of extraordinary evidence, things are deemed to be what they appear to be: a shower is a shower and a work camp is a work camp. Not being on a holiday doesn't imply being the object of genocide (false alternative fallacy). The camps were populated mostly by non-jews, by the way.106.187.37.189 (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
You can visit, yes, and as you enter the showers a hypnotical voiceover says "it's really a gas chamber", as you look at a pile of old shoes the voiceover further directs your thinking: "their owners were gassed", and so on and so forth. If you take those voiceovers to your local swimming pool you'll "open your eyes" to the genocide that's being commited right under your nose, too. Pathetic.82.161.30.183 (talk) 22:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, Bob, as you can see from the two comments above it's denialism and conspiracy theory all over again as well as red herrings by the ton. Note how none of them actually even attempt to answer the simple question of what happened to the millions of Jews (and others) who "just disappeared" (according to the denialist version). But perhaps they're really hiding on the dark side of the moon[wp] or something... Seriously, this thread is depressing, but that's denialism for you. ScepticWombat (talk) 23:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Millions of Jews... how do you know they weren't billions? Your question amounts to pushing unproven assumptions and therefore deserves contempt. The vague terms of it just shows how little support the story has. 82.161.30.183 (talk) 23:53, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Okay, you are a moron and you've just proved it by just asking questions especially this one: "how do you know they weren't billions?", because the answer is simple: There has never been even one billion Jews on the entire planet you twat. I used millions simply to indicate the scale (though I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the stuff you prefer to deny), i.e. that it wasn't just a few families here and there - what you might term "loose change" on a demographic scale. I assume you've heard of such a thing as censuses? They were and are quite popular in Europe (and in pretty much every advanced state) and they included questions addressing religious and ethnic affiliations - that's how we can get a fairly good approximation of the number of Holocaust victims. Also, the question: "Where did the Jews go?" is not vague at all - the only ones being vague and evasive so far in this thread are the denialist BoNs. ScepticWombat (talk) 00:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
According to the censuses produced by the jews themselves (American Jewish Commitee), their population increased! from 15,748,091 in 1933 to 15,763,638 in 1948. That's the scale of the Holohoax as reported by the "victims" themselves.106.187.37.189 (talk) 00:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Surprisingly Unsurprisingly, this very RW article already has a rebuttal to your canard.
The alleged rebuttal ends up at an obscure "nizkor.org" which pretends to correct the 1949 figure of the World Almanac without providing any documental evidence of it. At least the "denialists" care to scan the originals and show them to the public. It's quite odd that the jewish only noticed their decline 4 years after the end of WW2... it seems someone finally decided to educate them about their own "genocide", so they could revise history accordingly. Better late than never, huh?106.187.37.189 (talk) 16:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Even taking your dubious numbers ([citation needed] beyond a random scan from the Interwebz), a minimal increase tantamount to a standstill during a 15 year period which fell within a 20-year era in which world population (despite WWII) grew by around 20% (from an estimated 2.07 billion in 1930 to 2.52 in 1950) still suggests a lot of missing Jews. In fact this missing increase of approximately a fifth of 15 million, amounts to... 3 million... Or perhaps Jews suddenly started having children only at about replacement rate (ca. 2.1 children per couple) unlike the rest of the world?
Try harder or, even better, try non-denialism aka real history, rather than pseudohistorical PRATTs. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
You got the nerve to dismiss data with a source - that also happens to be jewish - as "dubious" after your previous appeal to "censuses" that you couldn't substantiate? What a fallacious turd. Your arguments ad hoc, your improvisation draws fom beliefs and outdated post-war propaganda. You can't provide the very "censuses" you tried to boast about but that doesn't stop you from denying the actual data when confronted to them.
Since Europe saw the highest mortality during WW2, your appeal to the growth of the "world population" is another stupid red herring. The only rational conclusion is that the jewish were among the least affected by WW2. The Polish, the Russians, the Germans and the French suffered much higher loses both in absulute numbers and in terms of percent. Somehow minority succedded in monopolizing WW2 suffering for themselves and in drawing huge political and fiancial benefit from it. Time to call the bluff, time to put forward the HARD PHYSICAL EVIDENCE or shut the fk up.106.187.37.189 (talk) 16:38, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ah the wonderful (im)moral outrage of Holocaust denialists... I'm so sorry that I'm not overly worried or moved by it. And yes, I put in [citation needed] because I only have your word as to its origin and a weblink which I can't tie to the actual publication. You also continue to ignore that your objection is already addressed in the article, but it's nice to see that you've now at least dropped all pretences about just asking questions and have gone full Anti-Semitic international Jewish conspiracy. Please do continue to pwn yourself. ScepticWombat (talk) 16:57, 11 April 2015 (UTC) your word as to its origin and a weblink which I can't tie to the actual publication.

If you can't tie a scan of the actual publication to the actual publication you're more stupid that I previously thought. If providing HARD evidence of the manipulation of history is "anti-smetic" then what else can I say than 'fuk the jews!'. Are you happy now?
Tell the author of the "rebuttal" at nizkor.org that he "forgot" to scan the revised numbers as proof of his point. It's conspicuous how the standard of acceptable evidence starts sinking and stinking real hard when the argument favours the Holohoax.106.187.37.189 (talk) 17:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Why don't you try trolling Nizkor instead, I'm sure they're just as appreciative of anti-Semitic conspiracy BS as RW. Have fun Troll. ScepticWombat (talk) 17:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

[edit] 4chan's /pol/

A link to here, we'll see if any interesting editting happens. FrizzyCatPotato (talk/stalk) 16:19, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

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