Talk:How come there are still monkeys?

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[edit] How come there are still humans?

This discussion was moved to Forum:How come there are still humans?.

[edit] Nice article

And well deserving of the silver brainstar. Lots of good material presented up front, and a little humor thrown in at the end. Quality work, and kudos to all who built it! ħumanUser talk:Human 01:33, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Minor confusion issue

Maybe I'm just being daft, but I can't figure this bit out:

"Because the question deals with the discomfort many people seem to have about our relationship with monkeys, it might be interesting to see how they feel about being related to apes:

  • Do you think that the real reason that we look so much like apes is that we were especially created (or designed) that way for some (similar) purposes?"

This is how I read this part:

"Because the question deals with the discomfort many people seem to have about our relationship with monkeys" - Ok, I can take a good guess at why people may feel discomfort. It's because we like to think of ourselves as special and superior to monkeys, and this notion of a relationship weakens that line of thinking. So that bit is alright.

"it might be interesting to see how they feel about being related to apes" - Fair enough, I guess. If they feel discomfort at being related to monkeys, they may also feel discomfort about being related to apes for the same reason. Or they may not feel discomfort, and that may have various reasons. Either way it's interesting to know.

"Do you think that the real reason that we look so much like apes is that we were especially created (or designed)" - Designed by what? Nature? God? I can't help feeling that this is implying something, but I can't figure it out.

"created (or designed) that way for some (similar) purposes?" What purpose? Do you mean us and apes evolved that way for the purpose of surviving? Do you mean God made us that way for the purpose of ... I can't even fathom what that would be, not being a religious thinker myself.

So yeah, if anyone has some context or clarification for me, I'd be grateful. Nullahnung (talk) 14:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I read that the other day and wondered what it was going on about as well. I would suggest that the article would be better off without it. --Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 14:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Removed. €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 14:42, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Cousin Bob

So should:

Asking If humans are descended from monkeys... is the same as asking If I am descended from cousin Bob, why is cousin Bob still alive?

say:

Asking If humans are descended from monkeys... is the same as asking If I am descended from cousin Bob...

If the point it's trying to make is that "descended from monkeys" is a nonsensical thing to say, and that people are (generally) not descended from their own cousins? The "still alive" seems redundant. --Gurneyslade (talk) 17:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Humans are not descended from (any modern) monkey, but humans and monkeys have common ancestors. TomS TDotO (talk) 20:19, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Is that a "yes" or a "no" or an "I misread your question"? --Gurneyslade (talk) 21:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
The stuff about a "common ancestor" being difference from descent is because the 'CA' might be so 'primitive' as not to fit into zoological definitions of either species. The above talkpage sections mention a lot on taxons, but they leave out cladistics, which orders life in a more tree-like style. The problem with taxons is that they get messed up once you find a subspecies of something you already named a subspecies; stuff like that bumps up the taxas, and you end up with two very closely-related Families being ordered next to each other, when one should be part of the other. The 'cladistic' ordering takes the form of a tree when being drawn up; should there be an addition, you just add a branch. It does have the problem of people arguing how close one branch should be to another, since they represent how closely-related two species are. Just look at human evolutionary charts; you'll see various works conflicting over how close H.s.sapiens and H.neanderthalensis should be (did one evolve from the other? Are they branches of H.erectus?).
But, if that was all 'td;dr', the answer is "we don't know exactly when the split occurred, so we use the next-highest ancestor that we do know."-- 194.81.33.13 (talk) 20:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Is the "Cousin Bob" thing a direct quote from River Out of Eden? If it is, then cut it because it's just replicating. If not, I don't think it makes sense - at least not in the "serious answers". The realistic analogy would be "If I'm descended from Grandma Alice, why is Cousin Bob alive?" Scarlet A.pngpostate 17:09, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't seem to be a direct quote. I tried changing it to "If I am descended from the Wilkerson family, why is the Wilkerson family still alive?" months ago, since if "some report success" with the metaphor then it's worth giving people a coherent way to phrase it, but it got swept back with a bunch of other edits as "somewhere between nonimprovement and disimprovement". Any thoughts on a good wording? --Gurneyslade (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
"If I am descended from Wilkersons, why are there still Wilkersons?" TomS TDotO (talk) 01:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Does somebody have access to River Out of Eden? The presentation of the analogy in this article is poor. The latest tried to do better. We should, first of all, give a correct citation to Dawkins. That is the minimum. Only after meeting that minimum should we consider trying better. TomS TDotO (talk) 12:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Probably the best phrasing would be "if I am descended from my grandparents, why are my cousins still alive?" King Skeleton (talk) 13:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] We are not descended from monkeys

(Unless you are related to a certain pop group)

.... we, they, apes, Lucy (whether or not throwing 'pretty crystals' into the air), and 'hobbits' (to name but a few) are descended in different ways from several common ur-ancestors which 'disappeared' by variously becoming us and them. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Think (Not checked) that it'll say that in the article. Scream!! (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Checked: "Evolution explains how humans developed from a primate ancestor, but not an extant species of monkey or ape. (Modern primates include: bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, baboons, macaques, lemurs, gibbons, and humans. None of these is a descendant of any other.)" Thought so. — Unsigned, by: Scream!! / talk / contribs
then what explains my poo flinging and public masturbation? AMassiveGay (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
(ec) You're obviously a precursor of what man will evolve into. Scream!! (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Decidedly untrue. While the common ancestor we share with chimps were not chimps they were definitely of the same order as all modern apes. They were apes, just not modern apes. Ikanreed (talk) 15:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
If we decide to follow the strict rules of cladistics, then

1) Humans are more closely related to chimps than their is to gorillas. As long as both gorillas and chimps are universally recognized as African apes, then any clade which is to be named "African apes" (Hominidea), will contains chimps and gorillas, and their most recent common ancestor, and all of the descendants of that MRCA, in particular Homo sapiens" as well the recent human ancestors and near relatives. That means that not only are we descended from African apes, we are African apes. 2) The situation with regard to monkeys is more complicated. 2a) There are two clades of monkeys, the Old World monkeys, including baboons and others; and the New World monkeys, including howler monkeys. There is no commonly recognized clade of "monkeys". 2b) If there is a clade of Old World monkeys, then it would have to include descendants. Apes are descendants of Old World monkeys. Therefore, if there is a clade of Old World monkeys, then it includes all apes, including African apes, including humans. 2c) If there is a clade of monkeys including baboons and howler monkeys, then it contains their MRCA and all of its descendants, etc. etc. including humans. 3) Do we really advance the understanding of evolutionary biology by going into such details? I am not suggesting that there is anything that should be hidden. I am only saying that it is complicated beyond the interest of most people. It is better to stick to what must be the real confusion, that no modern species of humans, chimps, gorillas, baboons, howler monkeys, is the ancestor of any other of them. If there is a species of ape or monkey in our ancestry, it is not true that that species is still around. TomS TDotO (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

If there was any actual convenience served by this line of reasoning, I'd take the argument by pragmatism. Ikanreed (talk) 14:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I belong to the 'apes and monkeys are distant relatives (and so long as there is a niche for a species, or one it can adapt to at least as well as other possible occupants, it will survive)' group. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 14:11, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Some monkey ain't there anymore

They were extinct :( --Arisboch (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

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