Talk:Inverse stopped clock/Archive1

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[edit] How's this?

"Even an atomic clock is wrong once every few million years". TheSocktor (talk) 00:13, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Dylan

If his becoming a born again Christian isn't the canonical example of what this article is supposed to be about, I don't know what is. But whatever. Secret Squirrel (talk) 11:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

That's just a religious belief so it's just kind of dickish to add it, though if he was a fundie it would be different. If you really feel it's necessary though add it, but I wouldn't advise it. ClothCoat (talk) 06:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Hitch

Hitch wasn't merely a chickenhawk in the gung-ho kind of way we expect from that term. He produced pro-war arguments based on having researched the situation in Iraq and concluding that the regions best interests would have been served by disposing of Saddam Hussein. If you're going to have this as a term, you cannot just say "this is when people disagree with me", they have to do so for a batshit crazy reason that is unexpected. In this case, Hitchens produced a researched argument and happened to land pro-war side. It's not in the same league as random liberals suddenly turning into paranoid Truthers (which seems to be the recurring theme of the list). Scarlet A.pnggnostic 11:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I can sorta see your point, although Hitch isn't the example I would have brought up. This list seems to be cluttered up with subjective "I don't like their non-Really Serious People politics" entries (for example, Penn and Teller being libertarian advocates of laissez-faire, Hunter Thompson being an admirer of Che Guevara). Examples of what does belong would be otherwise rational, skeptical people believing in telepathy, astrology, or becoming born again Christians. Secret Squirrel (talk) 12:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
P&T are probably better examples of the trope in action. Though not for their libertarian bent (their ability to confuse skepticism and their own political leanings is an annoyance, but it isn't fundamentally wrong) - they've been climate change denialists and have denied the link between passive smoking and cancer despite mountains of evidence. And the respective episodes of Bullshit! on those topics weren't up to much. I mean, seriously, there are some absolutely terrible episodes of that show to pick on. However, they have both recounted their positions on that sort of thing since, which I think makes the trope stronger there because it underlines it as a "blip" of sorts. Scarlet A.pngpostate 12:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, definitely, P&T should be mentioned for their views on global warming and smoking. But not for merely being libertarians. Back to Hitch: he did slide over as I recall into a level of Islamophobia that went beyond merely the atheist-criticizing-all-religionists sort. Secret Squirrel (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
(1). As far as most economists are concerned laissez-faire is somewhat cranky and we even criticize it on this wiki as to why it's kind of nutty, but I still took it out. (2) It doesn't matter that Hitch looked at research if he still turned out wrong about Iraq, seeing as how the region has become less stable since Saddam was removed. Militias (possibly funded by Iran) have gained power in the area and we have to leave due to debt it has caused the nation. It was a short sighted plan and even many right-leaning foreign policy experts will agree on that. If Hitch is wrong, no matter the cause, it still goes under inverse stopped clock. I would say the Islamophobia would be a better example, however. (3) Yes there are varying degrees of crazy wrong, as is stated in the article, so it really doesn't mean anything if Chickenhawks are listed with Truthers , just because it's the same list doesn't mean they're equally as crazy. (4)I have a really good idea, instead of people complaining about the article they could hit the "edit" button and fix it, as opposed to just complaining on the talk page and then doing/contributing nothing. ClothCoat (talk) 06:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
I think that many people here erroneously conflate scepticism/atheism with a particular political worldview. Redchuck.gif ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.Moderator 12:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Not too bothered about Hitch. He was an amazing person but he did have some odd ideas. Just like with Einstein, you take the god with the bad. Perhaps add on Newton as he on the one side was pure scientific genius, on the other wrote whole teatrices about religion that nobody knows about, and even religious people consider crazy. For Hitch, perhaps primarily add the communist and pro-war bits. Point is indeed that he either changed his mind (communism) or was wrong (war). What sources do we have for sexism etc? That brings me to a secobd point: why have all of these people without references? Even the wikipedia entry has them! Besides there are some who probably was added simply because someone didn't like them. Read up on Dawkins, for instance, who in no way is apologetic for paedophilia. I think none of the people accused of Islamophobia should be there either. It's not exactly rocket science to conclude that of the three worst groups of religions on earth, Islam is the worst mainly because it has the most religious followers. None of these people are against Muslims, just the atrocious ideology that comes from Islamists. You can't say we're lacking evidence that Islam most certainly isn't the religion of peace! //Leord 94.197.120.203 (talk) 02:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Cuckoo clock

I've always referred to the opposite of a stopped clock as a "cuckoo clock," as in the clock works fine, but every now and then a little cuckoo comes out of it. -Shtrominer (talk) 00:49, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Hey that's actually better, I've been trying to think of something better to call it but nothing came to mind. Anyone else think we should rename it? ClothCoat (talk) 03:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
It's a good name but inverse stopped clock sounds more powerful. Why not add it as "also called xxx" at the top paragraph as ler normal Wikipedia articles? Sorry I'm not logged in, not sure if the Wikipedia login works. Either way, I'm on mobile, so a hassle to log in. I'm usually Leord online. 94.197.120.203 (talk) 02:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] On Frege

So, why was the entry about well-known logician Gottlob Frege turning out to be a Nazi sympathizer at the end of his life deleted? The diary in which he expresses these views have been published, making it a verifiable claim, and if becoming a Nazi isn't an example of this phenomenon, then nothing is. --User:BrendanRizzo, 31 January 2014 00:36 (UCT)

[edit] Benefits of hindsight

Some of the examples given may have been 'reasonable speculation or beliefs' #at the time# - eg late 19th-early 20th centuries extrapolating from 'X-rays, photography, sound recordings and radio' to ESP and communicating with the dead, or Fred Hoyle and the steady state universe/big bang debate. And - the cobbler's views may well be right ('the object is well crafted'/the critics know nowt about what rubbish has been cobbled together').

A distinction should be made between 'inverse stopped clock' and 'my pet mad theory is...' (the speaker knows it is slightly daft/offbeat etc, but is amused by the possibility). 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

  • I agree. For example, in Mark Twain's lifetime, telepathy hadn't been debunked, had it? For that matter, when Harvey Milk supported Jim Jones, it wasn't known how crazy Jones was, right? I don't think that came out until just before Jones fled the country. Thanos6 (talk) 23:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
And at the time of Isaac Newton 'astrology, alchemy and related topics' #were# current scientific theory and were no more 'wrong' than the late 19th century theory that the Sun was powered by coal (paraphrasing) and would burn out in X million years, habitable Venus in the early 20th century, Original Star Trek with no small computers/internet- and Wiki- equivalents etc. If a theory is plausible/reasonable #at the time/with then current knowledge# its proponents should not be derided. It is only those who persist in a view on certain subjects long after they have been disproved who should be derided.

'If sentience emerged once in the universe, it should happen more than once' is perfectly logical; 'just because we have not developed ftl-travel-equivalent doesn't mean other species haven't already done so' is likewise but less; 'aliens may have visited the Earth in the past/the present (galactic safari tours, the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy's young-tearaways, and scientists) may be feasible - but that they would persist in performing the same experiments on ordinary or offbeat people (rather than 'borrowing' scientists, or recruiting local agents for their goods and services) is not. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 16:26, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Examples section...

...needs serious clean-up. I didn't really like the concept of this article in the first place, but if we're going to keep it, that section needs to be cleaned up. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 04:49, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I put in in alphabetical order by last name but did you have another idea? And I really like this article because a) it warns that skeptics can still be occasionally mistaken no matter how much you respect them so you have to keep on your toes and b)it talks about how these people are used as an appeal to authority by cranks. ClothCoat (talk) 07:01, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Since it's basically a listicle of "people who disagreed with me", it might be even easier just to euthanise it rather than spend time clearing it. The best option to salvage it is just keep a sub-section of stopped clock with 3-4 prominent examples kept. Scarlet A.pngpathetic 09:48, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't like the concept of the stopped clock and the inverse stopped clock either. It starts from the premise that those who are frequently wrong will say things that are probably wrong, then goes on to say "but wait, sometimes they are right!" and vice versa (they are often right, but sometimes they may be wrong!). And that's literally all these articles do. Whoop-de-doo. Nullahnung (talk) 10:13, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
In addition to the listicle nature, there are entries that are pretty dubious -- e.g. a psychologist whose ideas are mostly discarded (Freud), a guy who made a dumb post on his blog once and quickly retracted who is now labeled a AGW denier (Randi), a comedian who has allegedly "given voice" to truthers (George Carlin, who AFAIK, had no involvement w/ truthers) etc. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:35, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
On top of that, there are some here that I would not particularly consider all-around rational excepting in one or two areas, e.g. Maher or Harris. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion and splitting off Ultracrepidarian(ism)

As various people have pointed out above, this is a really nebulous concept that seems to boil down to "people that 'we' are supposed to agree with sometimes say/do something 'we' are supposed to disagree with". In addition to being just list-bait (or list-bating...), it's not the opposite of a "stopped clock". A stopped clock is when someone is right by making the same statement/following the same line of "thought" that is usually wrong. E.g. someone who serially accuses people of being Communist spies can be "right" in a few instances when the accused is actually a Communist spy. The "inverse stopped clock" then would be a situation when someone is "wrong" by doing the same behaviour that is usually right. E.g. a skeptic that debunks UFO sightings who "debunks" a sighting of an actual alien spacecraft. The point in both cases that there's no rational proces going on - it's not "true knowledge", or whatever philosophers call it. And "ultracrepidarianism" seems to be an unrelated term for people who stray from their area of expertise but still expect to be (considered as) relevant, which is related to Nobel disease and argument from authority.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Stopped clock isn't just about people being occasionally right within the context of their crank theory. It's also how some people (for example, a crazed libertarian that wants to privatize the police) who are otherwise batshit can have moments where we're like "oh wow, he's actually right about that, and quite insightful."--"Shut up, Brx." 16:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Hmmm... on the one hand, the concept this article describes seems a bit pointless. Just because we have stopped clock doesn't mean we need to have an article on the inverse - you can theoretically construct an inverse to quite many concepts, after. On the other hand, IMO it's exactly that list which might be the article's saving grace. Pointing out how even people we like can are fallible and have been wrong on occasion, that seems like a very sceptic thing to do to me. So, I'm undecided on this...Octo8 (talk) 16:36, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Uh, yes, if the libertarian's "insigtful" positions stem from the same ideals/thought processes that their "crazed" ones also do, then it's covered by my definition of a stopped clock.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
You mean like when Lord Kelvin said that "heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible"? TheSocktor (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

  1. And restore Ultracrepidarian(ism). Possible under better name.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
    If you know a better name, go for it, but ultracrepidarian is what it is, someone who has gotten used to being an authority on a subject, and who thinks that makes what they pull out of their ass carry the weight of that authority. Not any kind of stopped clock, really. I'd like to see Ultracrepidarian restored as its own article, but am willing to wait for someone else to do that. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:52, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  2. I think there is a significant difference between what our articles think the definition of a stopped and inverse stopped clock is and what ZooGuard thinks the definition should be. So I don't quite agree with ZooGuard's reasoning for deletion. I will still vote for deletion, though, since the clock concepts seem rather useless and uninteresting whereas Ultracrepidarian as an article seems much more interesting and useful. Nullahnung (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  3. I'm also not a huge fan of this article, as I think the concept is too vague. Many, many people have some small subset of views that the wider world would consider crazy, so I agree with Nullahnung in that the idea of an inverse stopped clock isn't terrible interesting on its own merits. - Grant (Talk) 19:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Keep

  1. Addressing the fact that some people, rational and decent in every respect but totally off the rails in some way, seems perfectly fine for this wiki. Mentioning some such persons in this article, linking to this article from other pages, and perhaps even creating a category seems like a good way to go.--"Shut up, Brx." 16:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
    What you mean is better described as "feet of clay", "everyone is fallible", "have no idols" or something of the sort. It shouldn't be in the "logic" category, because "appeal to authority" already covers the logic/rhetoric aspects of that.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  2. As I created this article in the first place I guess I should step in. Firstly, I really like the list. It's not only an interesting read but it shows how we are willing to question people who we usually agree with, which is good. Secondly, it's good for when a crank says "HA Richard Dawkins even agree with me on (blank), know skeptics have to agree with me", and in turn we can just point to this article. Anyways, I just saw a suggestion for this page on the stopped clock talk page and was trying to be helpful when I created it so I'm sorry I upset everyone. ClothCoat (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
    I don't see a lot of upset happening here. I've got mixed feelings on the subject, and I've edited the "delete" heading to make that clearer, I hope. My interest is more in preserving the ultracrepidarian bit, which I believe was folded into this article by mistake. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 21:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
    Yeah, maybe we should keep the list in some form. Some of the examples are probably applicable to the Ultracrepidarian article, and that would be interesting to point out. (Examples of authoritative figures wandering about outside of their area of expertise and saying dumb things? Label them as ultracrepidarian!) My main gripe is with the overall concept of this article and the stopped clock article. Nullahnung (talk) 21:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I think that the content is good to have around in a clearly articulated form. That said, I don't particularly care where it goes, whether here, a subsection in the stopped clock article, or somewhere else. Same with ultracrepidarianism. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 21:57, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. This article covers when otherwise reasonable people support pseudoscience, believe in conspiracy theories, or hold racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. views. This is not synonymous with ultracrepidarianism (talking about things beyond one's field of expertise), although it often involves it, because there is such a thing as willful ignorance. It is possible for someone to be well-informed on a particular subject — to know all the available facts — but still reach a conclusion that's wrong. -Shtrominer (talk) 02:19, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
    Why does it matter that they're otherwise reasonable? When you're wrong, you're wrong, regardless of what your reputation might be. Do we really need an article to elaborate on that kind of tautology? It seems so trivial. Nullahnung (talk) 02:45, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Rationality is sort of like built-in error detection and correction. It helps people weed out irrational ideas. Of course, we're all wrong from time to time, and I'm pretty sure everyone has an irrational idea or two rattling around in their head, but the point is that the "cuckoo clock" phenomenon (as I like to call it) goes beyond simple human frailty. The mechanisms that guard against irrational thinking have completely failed, but only on one particular subject, and we can't just easily chalk that failure up to "nobody's perfect." There's a reason, and that reason tells us something about the person. But I do think scale is important. There's a difference between an otherwise rational person privately reading their horoscope and a rational person publicly advancing 9/11 conspiracy theories. -Shtrominer (talk) 04:54, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Long-eared jerboa Goat

  • I think this is a decent topic and a decent article too, but I don't see a lot of potential for expansion. I would support merging with the original stopped clock article. I also don't think it's quite the same thing as ultracre-whatever. The section we have here even says that that term is just about people talking outside their area of expertise, so (hypothetically) a mediocre engingeer spouting bullshit about racial realism would be an ultrathing but not an inverse stopped clock. So that really ought to be a separate topic entirely. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 21:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  • The concept isn't bad but some of the examples are terrible. If we stuck to cases where people have had cranky ideas in what we could expect to their area of expertise, it would be OK. Examples suggesting that scientific innovators are also supposed to be wise authorities on politics, and vice-versa, do us no favours. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Afd

Kept per RationalWiki:Articles for deletion/Inverse stopped clock. SophieWilderModerator 18:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Noam Chomsky

chomsky is not a genocide denialist - the claims of this were cooked up using fraudulent editing practices and blatant lies

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2779086.html

http://www.chomsky.info/letters/20051113.htm

if you look at the materials you will find that the claims that he did so are wildly misrepresented in one case he wasn't even talking about massacres or genocides to begin with in one of the claim sources (srebrenica in that case), and as for the other, it puts "ironic quotation marks" where there were none to begin with as chomsky pointed out, which is dishonest practice in quoting - making it look like chomsky has disdain for the word "massacre" when it is used in regards to the bosnian situation - the word genocide doesn't show up in the first place in the interview he had with the slanderer brocke

in terms of cambodia, he made a critique of someone's work and called for more information on the matter (this was as it was developing - and in fact his critique was well received by the person who wrote on the matter) - this is known as "checking the facts" or "not jumping to conclusions on incomplete evidence" and is a common thing for legitimate academic work


here is chomsky specifically referencing the the genocide

http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2005/419-smearing-chomsky-the-guardian-in-the-gutter.html


It took just minutes searching the internet for us to find numerous quotes that flatly contradict Brockes’s claims. For example, in his January/February 2005 article, ‘Imperial Presidency,’ Chomsky described the November 2004 US assault on Falluja as involving “war crimes for which the political leadership could be sentenced to death under US law”. He added:

“One might mention at least some of the recent counterparts that immediately come to mind, like the Russian destruction of Grozny 10 years ago, a city of about the same size. Or Srebrenica, almost universally described as ‘genocide’ in the West. In that case, as we know in detail from the Dutch government report and other sources, the Muslim enclave in Serb territory, inadequately protected, was used as a base for attacks against Serb villages, and when the anticipated reaction took place, it was horrendous. The Serbs drove out all but military age men, and then moved in to kill them.” (Chomsky, ‘Imperial Presidency,’ Canadian Dimension, January/February 2005)

Similarly, on p.208 of his book Hegemony or Survival (Hamish Hamilton, 2003), Chomsky also refers to the Srebrenica massacre - no quotation marks were used either there or in the index.

Hm...This doesn't sound like inversed stopped clock so much as misinterpretation. I'll axe it pending a stronger argument that he really is some sort of denier. Zero (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Stephen Fry's example

"Stephen Fry's bizarre comments that women dislike sex and only sleep with men "because sex is the price they are willing to pay for a relationship.""

I have no words...Sensual Endeavor, the sexy pony ;) (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Huh. I thought the list was deleted a long time ago.--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 09:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Would Bill Clinton's signing the DOMA count?

Would that be an example, even though he's said it was his greatest mistake? — Unsigned, by: BlackProg / talk / contribs

The fact that he admits fault makes me think it wouldn't count. Being unapologetic about it to me is what causes the ISC. Zero (talk - contributions) 14:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Nevermind the fact that ISC is an ill-defined piece of crap of a term, there is nothing "is-usually-reasonable" about Bill Clinton and even if he were a beacon of truth and reason, being wrong about something at any point of time should, sticking close to the clock & time analogy, constitute ISC regardless of apology. Nullahnung (talk) 18:52, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Maher sexism

What sexist comments has Bill Maher made? I knew that he was a vaccine denialist and that he didn't like GMOs but I don't remember him making any sexist comments (though I don't watch real time religiously so I might have missed something.) Samstr (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Not sure about his sexism, but the volume of shit he says should put him in the stopped clock article, rather than this one. Space Turbo (talk) 17:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
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