Talk:Jarrah White

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This Conspiracy theories related article has been awarded BRONZE status for quality. It's getting there, but could be with improvement.

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Contents

[edit] More needed

While I think that White warrants an article, I have reservations about the current version. It was created by something that looks like a drive-by account, it is light on sources and it takes things more personally than necessary. I've tried to clean it up a bit, but it needs more work.--ZooGuard (talk) 09:25, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Drive-by article deleted 20/06/2014

I am the Jarrah White mentioned in this totally bogus and incorrect article. Whoever wrote this obviously has some axe to grind. I have deleted the erroneous and libelous statements therein. Below is my thorough rebuttal.

First of all: I do not "swiftly block users" for pointing out "errors". The user in question was blocked for calling Ralph Rene "deliberately deceptive" (and I have email records to prove it). I have put up with persistent Ralph Rene trolling (not to mention attempts to demonize he and I) for nearly seven years now, and subsequently have not had one day to mourn him. Not one day. I will not put up with this trolling anymore. I also have limited tolerance for people calling me "deliberately deceptive". I have no interest nor need to be deceptive to my audience, and anyone who says otherwise I consider a troll/oxygen-thief who is not worth my time or attention. Additionally, under the new Google+ System, anyone can flag a comment for spam. Upon which, it is removed from public view and placed in a bin that the user who uploaded the original video must filter through. I have seen messages from both sides of the debate appear in these bins. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the time to filter through these hundreds of flagged messages.

Secondly: I shouldn't have to produce "evidence to back up" that I am doing my BSc. Why would I advertise where I study when on multiple separate ocassions certain opponents have dug up my personal dox, sent me unsolicited mail and even posted said dox online? You will get your evidence when I post the graduation videos on Youtube.

Third: the section on my site regarding Hams and MSFN is in response to individuals who specifically claim that Russia and Hams "tracked Apollo all the way to the moon and back" (I know for a fact Killian made such a claim, and I recall Plait claiming it somewhere) and erroneously claim that the MSFN stations were independent of NASA despite the fact that they were either NASA owned or NASA contracted.

Fourth: Van Allen's findings that I referred to were published in the March 1959 issue of Scientific American and backed by findings on the Explorer and Pioneer spacecrafts. His subsequent retraction and statement that lethal radiation is "nonsense" is neither substantiated nor backed by his own data. A friend posted scans of the article in question on his Photobucket, I offer these so everyone can evaluate the science for themselves: http://s923.photobucket.com/user/ax2cz/media/VanAllenbeltsarticleMarch195902.jpg.html?sort=3&o=26

Fifth: Similarly, the ESO press release that I linked to specifically discusses the resolving capabilities of the VLTI, stating that it can resolve details as small as 1milliarcsecond. .In addition to likening it to resolving he headlights of a car on the moon, they have recently likened it to being able to resolve a sesame seed on the ISS This is the same width to distance ratio as the space between a car's headlights on the moon (2mm/380km = 2000mm/380,000km), so if it can see a seed on the ISS it should be able to see a car on the moon. And the VLT has been used to take pictures of the moon, unfortunately ESO has not used it to resolve objects that small. I'm not sure what kind of scientific authority whoever wrote this article purports to be, but optical telescopes were covered in my first year of astrophysics. I think I know what is required to see hardware on the moon.

Furthermore, this article completely ignores my various non conspiracy theory work. Like my coverage of SpaceX's progress: my educated guesses for their Mars strategy turned out to be near identical to what MarsOne was proposing. Or my Sci-Fi in the Sky series, which scientifically critiqued errors in science fiction movies. I am by all means a man of science who demands progress and advancement of space exploration. Falsified space missions and attempts to keep those lies alive will only hinder that goal. I do not care that I am in, at best, a scientific minority regarding my position on Apollo.

Wikipedia had some staff who were decent enough to delete a page that was created to attack me a few years ago. I have never even heard of RationalWiki before, but one would think it would have had moderators able to take the same action against attack pages like this. — Unsigned, by: 165.228.122.221 / talk / contribs 12:15, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


Before anyone, like the BoN which just removed large sections of the article, starts claiming that Jarah has "refuted" the criticism in the article, please read on:
Not able to quote correctly, surprise surprise for a moon hoaxer... Jarrah claims that "In addition to likening it to resolving he headlights of a car on the moon, they have recently likened it to being able to resolve a sesame seed on the ISS." Unfortunately, that's not what ESO actually wrote in their faq which really stated that "This is equivalent to distinguishing two points separated by the size of a sesame seed on the International Space Station as seen from the ground." Note that this ignores the (intermittently deleted) issue that the RW article raised, namely that this relates to "point sources of light against a dark background (e.g., a star), and completely useless for imaging the lunar surface. He is comparing apples, (in daytime), to flashlights, (at night)."
Similarly, Jarrah is sloppy when he claims that Van Allen's "subsequent retraction and statement that lethal radiation is "nonsense" is neither substantiated nor backed by his own data," because it ignores the facts that:
  1. Everyone but dedicated moon hoaxers actually agree that astronauts did survive the Van Allen belts.
  2. Van Allen didn't say that "lethal radiation is "nonsense"", but that the claims that astronauts couldn't possible have survived it is nonsense.
  3. It ignores that Van Allen actually already suggested how to mitigate the radiation problem in that very 1959 article, namely through shielding and minimising of exposure by choosing your trajectory, and he actually helped the Apollo Program with the latter approach.
As for why RW ignores Jarrah's "various non conspiracy theory work" that's because it falls outside RW's mission — just as RW's article on Eric Hobsbawm focuses on his role as a Stalin apologist, not his worthwhile contributions to history. ScepticWombat (talk) 01:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Additions to the article

I think it is worthwhile adding to this article, and explaining Jarrah's errors in more detail. As it stands, the article does appear to be an attack article. Seekers of the real truth should be made aware of the details and obfuscation used by White. — Unsigned, by: 79.64.20.178 / talk / contribs 15:44, 26 July 2014‎ (UTC)

[edit] Watching This Page

No one is blanking out 3/4ths of the damn page without explaining WHY that needs to happen here on the talk page. I will immediately revert any such removals until this dicussed in detail. Got that clear, BoN? --Castaigne (talk) 01:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Addition: I don't see that the shit which is being removed needs to be removed, since they are factual statements and refutations, and NOT hit pieces. --Castaigne (talk) 02:03, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Castaigne, I decided to reword the block and thread deletion claim as the BoN seemed to be correct about the YT block/delete thing (we could reinstate the stuff about block and the YT link, but not the claim about a delete of the thread). Instead, I simply cited Jarrah's hostile stance here on the talk page where he admitted to blocking those criticising René's BS. I also added the dubious nature of Jarrah's reference to the proposed future Space Adventures moon flights. ScepticWombat (talk) 02:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Noted. --Castaigne (talk) 05:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

HEY, BON ASSHOLE, READ YOUR FUCKING TALK PAGE AND YOU'LL FIGURE OUT WHY I'VE REVERTED YOU. PAY. ATTENTION. --Castaigne (talk) 06:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

RE: Where does White admit to "blocking those criticising René's BS"? The comment he posted here says the user was blocked for calling René "deliberately deceptive." Also, White covered the problems with what Space Adventures are proposing in one of his recent updates, even cited the exact same references as you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrHIa6LTcWo It is fair to say that he abandoned Space Adventures long ago in favor of SpaceX.

BoN? What's that stand for?

As you wish, here's a detailed discussion. The site stated that "When such errors are pointed out, for example in YouTube comments, White swiftly blocks users who point them out, and deletes their posts." and cites an AboveTopSecret thread posted by an individual called Rob48 as the reference.<ref>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1008824/pg1</ref> But if you scroll further down the page, this Rob48 withdraws his statement that White "deleted the entire thread." His retraction reads, and I quote: "Edit: one small correction (unlike Jarrah, I can do corrections) - he has not "deleted the entire thread", it's just that I couldn't read it because he has blocked me. When I logged out of YouTube, I saw it was still there (the one starting "For anyone wondering...")". Clearly, whoever posted the statement that White deletes the messages obviously didn't read the whole thread. Had he/she done so, he/she would not have posted it because the accusation is baseless.

White himself maintains that he only blocks people for calling him "deliberately deceptive", or in this case calling Rene "deliberately deceptive". I've seen Apollo defenders block moon hoaxers too, the Astrobrant2 mentioned in the original section for example has repeatedly blocked users for not abiding by his "rules". I'm sure all Youtubers have their own rules when it comes to people posting on their videos.

As for the business activities section, the section reads: "White accepts donations via his Moonfaker website[3]. He also runs a "Paypal fundraise"[sic] entitled Fly Jarrah to the Moon[4], in which he "encourages propagandists and everyone who believes in Apollo to raise $500,000 to pay for himself and an accompanying believer to take this proposed tourist flight". What Mr. White doesn't tell us on that page is that the $500,000 price tag was a projection for decades into the future. In his first twenty-one "Fly Jarrah White to the Moon" YouTube videos, the price tag he was trying to meet was $200,000,000, which was later inflated to $300,000,000. (That's million, not thousand.) After twenty-two video "updates," covering a period of over three years, he had raised less than $500 for what he ordains as "my noble cause". He asserts that he firmly believes he will be able to raise the money. At that rate it will take him over 3000 years to meet just the projected half-million dollar fare.

YouTube Apollo defender, Astrobrant2, challenged White concerning his belief that the Van Allen belts would kill anyone travelling to the moon. Jarrah bravely stated that he would gladly sacrifice his life for the truth. It may be safe to assume that he will die right here on earth without ever having to show his cards on that claim."

Apart from the obvious cheap shots, this section is clearly in error. The $500,000 price tag was SpaceX's prediction for "10 or 15 years" after 2012 when the statement was made [1], not "decades into the future", decades into the future would imply more at least 20 or 30 years. While White does not mention this was a projection on his site, he DOES state that it was a projection in his "SpaceX - Man on Mars for only $500,000" video.[2] That video discusses and contains links to a BBC article covering Elon Musks proposal to send people to Mars for $500,000 within at least ten years after 2012. Given that White had specified it in his video (not to mention posted a link to that video in his FAQ page), this section on RW was unsubstantiated. So it should be trimmed.

And while his raising of the money has been slow, I also don't think it's fair to say that it will take him 3,000 years to raise the money. Groups like the Solar Roadways managed to raise over $2,000,000 for their pipe dream, so I think White raising $500,000 within his lifetime is conceivable. He probably just needs better advertising to speed up the process.

Now in regard to phrases like "He also claims to be studying for a BSc in astrophysics for many, many, years." Is that mature writing? I think not. I'd lose the "for many, many, years".

Now for the criticisms of the FAQ page. First of all, with regard to telecommunications. White is obviously responding to individuals who claimed that Apollo was tracked by independent parties all the way to the moon and back. As White argued in the Talk section, certain Apollo defenders have erroneously claimed this. In fact, some of his videos seem to chronicle his ongoing back and forth along these lines. [3] [4]. In these examples he specifically refutes shanedk's claim that amateur radio astronomers tracked Apollo "all the way to the moon" and gets into a heated debate with him [5][6], it's actually quite entertaining seeing the two shouting at each other. He also argues that DSN and MSFN cannot be "independent" as some assert because they were either contracted by NASA or operated by NASA. Given this proper context of what White is responding to on his site, the criticism on this page regarding tracking Apollo is obviously a strawman argument.

Regarding radiation. Again, the findings by James Van Allen that White refers to are his articles published in the 1959 Scientific American and 1961 Space World, not his reply to the Fox special made 40 years later. In fact, White seems to have updated his FAQ to include pdfs of both articles. Ignoring these articles in your criticism and instead referring readings to a much later statement is both an omission and a misrepresentation of White's position. And contrary to SkepticWombat's reply, the 1959 article does not "suggest how to mitigate" the radiation by "choosing your trajectory". On the final page, the trajectory he opts for is "taking off through the radiation free zone over the poles", which means launching from the polar regions. In the 1961 article he further specifies that the trajectory for avoiding the outer belt to minimize exposure calls for launching through what he calls "cones of escape" over the north and south geomagnetic poles.[7] Apollo's trajectory was no where near those cones of escape.

Finally, the resolving capabilities of VLT. All that needs to be said is that it is not true that the VLT is useless for imagining the lunar surface. They have used it to take photos of the Sea of Tranquility [8] and White's FAQ page also contains a Telegraph article in which Dr. Richard West announces that they will use four of the telescopes working together in VLTI mode to try and resolve a lunar module.[9]. Why would West propose this if VLTI was useless to look at the lunar surface? This reference is omitted completely by RW, making whoever wrote this section appear very dishonest. White also does make an interesting point that I would like to hear from whoever wrote this section: what qualifications or training in optical astronomy does the RW writer have?

I hope this answers your questions. If this site is dedicated to rational thinking, then to practice what we preach we should remove the unsubstantiated accusations, cheapshots, and strawman arguments from this page.

Hmmmm. My references don't seem to work. I don't know how to fix that.— Unsigned, by: 101.190.64.5 / talk / contribs 05:02, 1 March 2015‎ (UTC)

I suggest a trip to Help:Contents. And please avoid using references on Talk pages.--ZooGuard (talk) 08:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay let's break this up into a section for each claim shall we? (As for the meaning of BoN, see: RationalWiki:BoN) ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


[edit] Blocking & thread deletion

As you wish, here's a detailed discussion. The site stated that "When such errors are pointed out, for example in YouTube comments, White swiftly blocks users who point them out, and deletes their posts." and cites an AboveTopSecret thread posted by an individual called Rob48 as the reference. [10] But if you scroll further down the page, this Rob48 withdraws his statement that White "deleted the entire thread." His retraction reads, and I quote: "Edit: one small correction (unlike Jarrah, I can do corrections) - he has not "deleted the entire thread", it's just that I couldn't read it because he has blocked me. When I logged out of YouTube, I saw it was still there (the one starting "For anyone wondering...")". Clearly, whoever posted the statement that White deletes the messages obviously didn't read the whole thread. Had he/she done so, he/she would not have posted it because the accusation is baseless. White himself maintains that he only blocks people for calling him "deliberately deceptive", or in this case calling Rene "deliberately deceptive". I've seen Apollo defenders block moon hoaxers too, the Astrobrant2 mentioned in the original section for example has repeatedly blocked users for not abiding by his "rules". I'm sure all Youtubers have their own rules when it comes to people posting on their videos.
—101.190.64.5

Answer:

  1. White's definition of "deliberately deceptive" is not something I'd take at face value any day.
  2. The only thing that retraction actually retracts is the claim that White "deleted the entire thread", not the part about blocking. This is why I changed the wording to remove the former claim (only).
  3. We now have not only the link (which could be reinstated as a source for blocking), but also White's free admission to blocking people who don't think much about René.

In sum: Why should we remove the entire section when the only part that is clearly wrong is the allegation of White deleting the thread? This looks like whitewashing (no pun intended) to me. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

BoN response:

  1. . Definitions do not enter into it. Look at the quotation marks, White only blocks people who specifically call him “deceptive” or “deliberately deceptive”. I’ve seen many Apollo defenders posting on his videos who, as you put it, don’t think much about Rene or White for that matter. But they all seem to be still able to post on his videos because they have not yet used the D-word.
  2. . You have removed accusation that he “deletes posts”, but you have not yet removed the accusation that people are blocked for “pointing out errors”. There are others posting in the comments of White's videos posting criticisms similar to what Rob48 wrote, but they hold back on calling White “deceptive” and have not been blocked.
  3. . I have seen White’s comment here. Blocking someone for calling Rene “deliberately deceptive” is quite different from blocking someone for “pointing out errors”. Therefore, citing White’s comment here as an admission that he blocks people for “pointing out errors” is quote mining. Frankly, regardless of ideology, I doubt anyone would appreciate someone posting offensive insults about their deceased friends. White has produced quite a few videos on how his opponents trolled Ralph Rene after he died, so I think his limited tolerance for people calling his friend “deliberately deceptive” is understandable.

In Sum: There are TWO things wrong with the section, not just one. White did not delete comments, and White maintains that the user was blocked for calling Rene “deliberately deceptive”. What evidence do you have that the user was blocked for “pointing out errors”? And how do you reconcile this accusation when other Apollo defenders who post similar comments but have not called White or Rene deceptive are still active in the comments of his videos?

Signed - 101.190.64.5 / talk

The BoN simply takes Jarrah's claim at face value. Given that Jarrah is a moon hoaxer, I'd be extremely careful about his definition of what counts as "deliberately deceptive" (i.e. whether it covers pointing out that René's claims are BS). The blocking claim wasn't removed because the link still backed it up, and so did Jarrah. The level of trust that our BoN has in Jarrah is heart-warming - and rather naive. As we can see in the other cases, however, the heart gets a little colder when, instead of a rewrite, our BoN just decides to delete everything. That's effectively whitewashing. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:20, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Fly Jarrah to the Moon

As for the business activities section, the section reads: "White accepts donations via his Moonfaker website[3]. He also runs a "Paypal fundraise"[sic] entitled Fly Jarrah to the Moon[4], in which he "encourages propagandists and everyone who believes in Apollo to raise $500,000 to pay for himself and an accompanying believer to take this proposed tourist flight". What Mr. White doesn't tell us on that page is that the $500,000 price tag was a projection for decades into the future. In his first twenty-one "Fly Jarrah White to the Moon" YouTube videos, the price tag he was trying to meet was $200,000,000, which was later inflated to $300,000,000. (That's million, not thousand.) After twenty-two video "updates," covering a period of over three years, he had raised less than $500 for what he ordains as "my noble cause". He asserts that he firmly believes he will be able to raise the money. At that rate it will take him over 3000 years to meet just the projected half-million dollar fare.

YouTube Apollo defender, Astrobrant2, challenged White concerning his belief that the Van Allen belts would kill anyone travelling to the moon. Jarrah bravely stated that he would gladly sacrifice his life for the truth. It may be safe to assume that he will die right here on earth without ever having to show his cards on that claim."

Apart from the obvious cheap shots, this section is clearly in error. The $500,000 price tag was SpaceX's prediction for "10 or 15 years" after 2012 when the statement was made [1], not "decades into the future", decades into the future would imply more at least 20 or 30 years. While White does not mention this was a projection on his site, he DOES state that it was a projection in his "SpaceX - Man on Mars for only $500,000" video.[2] That video discusses and contains links to a BBC article covering Elon Musks proposal to send people to Mars for $500,000 within at least ten years after 2012. Given that White had specified it in his video (not to mention posted a link to that video in his FAQ page), this section on RW was unsubstantiated. So it should be trimmed.

And while his raising of the money has been slow, I also don't think it's fair to say that it will take him 3,000 years to raise the money. Groups like the Solar Roadways managed to raise over $2,000,000 for their pipe dream, so I think White raising $500,000 within his lifetime is conceivable. He probably just needs better advertising to speed up the process.
—101.190.64.5

Answer:

  1. A minor error ("12-15 years" i.e. a decade and a half, rather than "decades into the future") hardly merits deleting the entire section.
  2. There are hardly solid grounds to accept that the 12-15 years is an accurate guesstimate. This is a typical time frame for stuff that's not actually ready, but claimed to be just over the horizon (kind of like fusion woo).
  3. The projection of 3,000 years is based on Jarrah's actual fund raising abilities so far, using other peoples'/groups' fund raising abilities is irrelevant to a discussion of Jarrah. Sure, it's "conceivable" that Jarrah could raise "$500,000 within his lifetime" (I've just heard of someone in my city winning $40 million), but is it plausible? Current experience says no.

In sum: We again see at most a minor error, and our BoN deletes everything - this effectively constitutes whitewashing. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


BoN response:

  1. It is not just a minor error we are talking about here. The RW article claims that “What Mr. White doesn't tell us on that page is that the $500,000 price tag was a projection for decades into the future”, when in fact White DOES tell us this right at the beginning of his first video on SpaceX’s Mars shot. Quoting White: "On March 20, 2012, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk told the BBC that in as little as 10 or 15 years from [2012], his company will offer tourists a trip aboard his Dragon spacecraft all the way to the surface of Mars and back again to Earth for only $500,000 per seat. That's 300 times less than what Space Adventures is asking for a lunar fly-by." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSjg9e1bI0
  2. That is a discussion for another RW entry.
  3. Citing other people’s successful fund raising project is not irrelevant. If they can do it, so can White. If it is conceivable, then his project does not warrant the cheap shots like "it'll take 3,000 years" or "he'll die on Earth without having to show his cards."

Sum: It is not a minor error. The accusation was that White neglected to tell readers that the $500,000 price tag was a projection for the future, despite the fact that he DID mention this in his first main video on SpaceX's Mars mission, not to mention his subsequent follow up videos. Therefore, it is not whitewashing, it is trimming an obvious error.

Signed - 101.190.64.5 / talk

Our BoN ignores that the reference is to Jarrah's webpage, not the video where Jarrah adds the "small print". Our BoN is apparently unable to distinguish between "possible" and "plausible". RW's projection is based on Jarrah's actual ability to raise funds so far, so our BoN's idle speculations about what other fund raisers have managed is a red herring.
The BoN's defence suggests at most a slight rewrite, but instead everything is just deleted. Not cool. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Tracking Apollo

Now for the criticisms of the FAQ page. First of all, with regard to telecommunications. White is obviously responding to individuals who claimed that Apollo was tracked by independent parties all the way to the moon and back. As White argued in the Talk section, certain Apollo defenders have erroneously claimed this. In fact, some of his videos seem to chronicle his ongoing back and forth along these lines.[Note: YT clips omitted, see org. post] In these examples he specifically refutes shanedk's claim that amateur radio astronomers tracked Apollo "all the way to the moon" and gets into a heated debate with him,[Note: YT clips omitted, see org. post] it's actually quite entertaining seeing the two shouting at each other. He also argues that DSN and MSFN cannot be "independent" as some assert because they were either contracted by NASA or operated by NASA. Given this proper context of what White is responding to on his site, the criticism on this page regarding tracking Apollo is obviously a strawman argument.
—101.190.64.5

Answer:

  1. So, again we should delete everything because Jarrah claims it's unfair?
  2. What has the independence of NASA to do with anything? Oh yes, if we can't be sure they're absolutely independent, they're part of the conspiracy, right?
  3. What the RW article actually says is that asking for such independent tracking is unrealistic. Why is this "obviously a strawman argument"?

In sum: Why does these aspects merit a complete deletion, rather than a rewrite? ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

BoN response

  1. It should be deleted because the whole premise of the criticism is clearly based on a misrepresentation of what White said. Which is that contrary to what certain Apollo defenders have claimed, independents like amateur radio enthusiasts and Jodrell Bank do not claim to have tracked Apollo “all the way to the moon and back”
  2. Read the header of the Question in the FAQ page: “Weren’t there independent particles tracking Apollo all the way to the moon and back?” Clearly, it has to do with EVERYTHING because that’s what White was discussing and responding to in his FAQ page.
  3. The “unrealistic tracking” as you put it, was so-called evidence cited by certain Apollo defenders. Look at his videos I linked to in my previous message, White has directly replied to Apollo defenders making this claim and then he goes on to show that this claim is erroneous. Because the independent parties DO NOT make claim to have tracked it “all the way to the moon and back”, they only claim to have tracked it when it was on or near the moon. Attacking White over the “all the way to the moon and back” claim as though it originated with him is not a criticism of his argument, it is a misrepresentation of his argument.

Sum: See my reply to 1. No amount of rewriting this argument will help, because its overall premise is flawed. All White did was refute the claim that parties independent of NASA were able to track Apollo “all the way to the moon and back”. When one considers the context of what these independent trackers have stated, White’s refutation of this “all the way to the moon and back” claim is correct.

Signed - 101.190.64.5 / talk

Nothing in what the BoN addresses undercuts the existing RW text core contention: That it's silly to demand independent tracking all the way. Accepting Jarrah's claim that if it was done by anyone connected to NASA is pandering to his conspiracy nonsense.
Also, as in the other cases, this merits at most a rewrite, yet the BoN just wades in and blanks the entire section. There's a word for that, it's called whitewashing. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:09, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Van Allen

Regarding radiation. Again, the findings by James Van Allen that White refers to are his articles published in the 1959 Scientific American and 1961 Space World, not his reply to the Fox special made 40 years later. In fact, White seems to have updated his FAQ to include pdfs of both articles. Ignoring these articles in your criticism and instead referring readings to a much later statement is both an omission and a misrepresentation of White's position. And contrary to SkepticWombat's reply, the 1959 article does not "suggest how to mitigate" the radiation by "choosing your trajectory". On the final page, the trajectory he opts for is "taking off through the radiation free zone over the poles", which means launching from the polar regions. In the 1961 article he further specifies that the trajectory for avoiding the outer belt to minimize exposure calls for launching through what he calls "cones of escape" over the north and south geomagnetic poles.[11] Apollo's trajectory was no where near those cones of escape.
—101.190.64.5

Answer:

  1. See my earlier response to Jarrah.
  2. Yes, the article does say that shielding and choosing a trajectory will lessen the impact of radiation. It's right there at the end of the article and choosing the pole route was simply mentioned as the way to completely avoid the belts. As this was impracticable, in practice the trajectory was calculated to lessen, not completely avoid, the belt. This is what's pointed out in my second link.

In sum: Again we see minor niggling by Jarrah, taken at face value by our BoN who then deleted the entire section, effectively whitewashing Jarrah's BS. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

BoN response

  1. I have. You have not addressed his criticism. White argued that Van Allen originally stated that manned flights into the radiation belt would be deadly to astronauts, his FAQ page specifically cites these articles by Van Allen as references. In fact, the reference numbers even appear next to the quote used by RW. But rather than refer to the Van Allen articles White is talking about, RW bluntly states it is “categorically untrue” and quotes Van Allen’s reply to the Fox show, as though this reply was the Van Allen reference White was referring to!
  2. First, shielding would work, but in both articles Van Allen makes statements like “unless some practical way can be found to shield space travellers” or “owing to the great penetrability of the high energy protons therein, effective shielding is beyond engineering feasibility” implying that he doubted sufficient shielding could be supplied. Second, the only mention of “choosing a trajectory” that I can find at the end of the article is his mention of launching from the poles. Third, your second link is not written by Van Allen. If you are aware of a paper by Van Allen in which he specifically discusses Apollo’s trajectory, by all means share it with us.

Sum: What RW could have said was something along the lines of “It’s true that Van Allen originally stated this, but later withdrew his claim” and then go on to quote the reply to Fox. This would have made your point at least while keeping White’s argument in context. But instead, you avoid mentioning these early articles and bluntly call White’s paraphrasing of said articles “categorically untrue”. This is a strawman.

Signed - 101.190.64.5 / talk

Our BoN's suggestion for hedging is silly - given that Jarrah had easy access to Van Allen's comments. There's no reason why any thinking person would be poring over a 1959 article and then conclude that it must mean that astronauts couldn't have landed on the moon. That Van Allen wrote this in a popular science magazine in 1959 is simply irrelevant since it blithely ignores subsequent developments.
Even worse, and suggesting bad faith whitewashing, is that rather than doing a revision of the phrasing (s)he suggests, our BoN simply deletes the entire section. So no, this won't wash. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:05, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] VLT/VLTI

Finally, the resolving capabilities of VLT. All that needs to be said is that it is not true that the VLT is useless for imagining the lunar surface. They have used it to take photos of the Sea of Tranquility [12] and White's FAQ page also contains a Telegraph article in which Dr. Richard West announces that they will use four of the telescopes working together in VLTI mode to try and resolve a lunar module.[13]. Why would West propose this if VLTI was useless to look at the lunar surface? This reference is omitted completely by RW, making whoever wrote this section appear very dishonest. White also does make an interesting point that I would like to hear from whoever wrote this section: what qualifications or training in optical astronomy does the RW writer have?
—101.190.64.5

Answer:

  1. See my earlier response to Jarrah.
  2. Our BoN, like Jarrah, doesn't distinguish between VLT and VLTI, which is at the heart of the response to Jarrah in the RW article.
  3. Jarrah asks for qualifications - cool, what are his (and why should we accept his moon hoaxing)?

In sum: Our BoN is now beginning to show overt moon hoaxing tendencies by not only accepting Jarrah's BS, but also repeating standard conspiracy theorist M.O. ("Who are you to tell me I'm wrong?"/"You are being dishonest" blablabla). Is there any reason presented for even a rewrite, let alona a deletion of the entire section? ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

BoN response

  1. I have. I see nothing wrong with his paraphrasing of what ESO wrote on their site. In their FAQ page they wrote that it is equivalent to seeing two points separated by the space the size of a sesame seed, in the article White referenced on his site they state that it is equivalent to seeing a car’s headlights on the moon. White’s argument is that the equivalent resolution is the same when you do the calculations. There is also this Science Daily article with an even more specific analogy: “This will enable the VLTI to operate with enormous flexibility and, in particular, to obtain extremely detailed (sharp) images of celestial objects - ultimately with a resolution that corresponds to detecting an astronaut on the Moon.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050326093330.htm So what are the complaints here?
  2. So your argument is that White did not use the clarifying term of VLTI? That’s easily debunked. Here is his Fly Jarrah To The Moon update from August 2013, nearly a year before this entry was created. Quoting White at about 5:00: "Well in a press release, the European Southern Observatory announced that working in interferometry mode, the VLT had an angular resolution of 1 milliarcsecond" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKaTfLmP2QE His use of the phrase "working in interferometry mode" makes it obvious that he is talking about the VLTI. The fact that he wrote VLT instead of VLTI on his site is moot. When taking into consideration what he said in his video, it is clear that he is talking about VLTI. This makes this section on RW yet another strawman, further supporting the need to trim it.
  3. He said “optical telescopes were covered in my first year of astrophysics. I think I know what is required to see hardware on the moon.” He also provided that Telegraph article as a reference, in which Dr. West proposed using VLTI to look at the moon to try and find the Lunar Module: "Dr West said that the challenge pushed the optical abilities of one VLT mirror to its limits: if this attempt failed, the team planned to use the power of all four mirrors. "They would most probably be sufficiently sharp to show something at the sites," he said." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1414144/Worlds-biggest-telescope-to-prove-Americans-really-walked-on-Moon.html This contradicts RW’s claim that VLTI is useless for looking at the moon. Not including the continuation of White’s words in which he goes on to cite the article is neither honest nor an accurate representation of his position.

Sum: Based on these articles, one of which even quotes an ESO astronomer as saying they will use VLTI to look at the landing sites, I don’t see anything wrong with White’s conviction that VLTI can see hardware on the lunar surface. And considering the context of his video where he specifically discusses VLTI viewing the sites, claiming that he is “confused” simply because he uses the term VLT instead of VLTI another strawman. You caught him using the wrong term, but that's about it. His video demonstrates that he is talking about VLTI and not confused.

Signed - 101.190.64.5 / talk

Jarrah is not "paraphrasing", his is making a quite different claim: Being able to see to points (of light) separated by the space of a sesame seed and being able to see a sesame seed is not the same claim at all.
No, I'm not just saying that Jarrah is unclear about what he means, I'm saying that there's no reason to dispute the existing text which simply says that Jarrah is conflating two different types of instruments. His claim for accuracy is taken from the VLTI, but he uses it when talking about the possibility of the VLT. The problem is highlighted by comparing the Telegraph link with the VLTI. In the Telegraph article there's a clear hesitancy over whether the VLT will be able to spot the landings ("They would most probably be sufficiently sharp to show something at the sites") which would be nonsensical if the ESO VLTI imaging capabilities referred to the same thing.
Okay, so now Jarrah is back to talking about VLT (not VLTI) - an excellent example of his conflations. That RW "caught him using the wrong term" is quite a problem for your acceptance of Jarrah's claim that he understands what's going on. Our BoN seems to be extremely willing to accept Jarrah's damage control (of the "Oh, I just misspoke"-variety) which only surfaced after RW caught him messing up. And our BoN even continues talking about VLTI, when it ought to be VLT, great.
So no, I see no reason to simply whitewash delete the entire section. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:59, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Misc.

Now in regard to phrases like "He also claims to be studying for a BSc in astrophysics for many, many, years." Is that mature writing? I think not. I'd lose the "for many, many, years".
—101.190.64.5

Answer: It's called snark and RW does it (a lot). If you don't like it, why not try for a rewrite, but since White simply claims this and has so far signally failed to actually complete a degree which ought to take on the order of three years, I don't think a bit of snark is uncalled for. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

BoN response

Completing a degree in three years assumes he is doing it FULL TIME, in his latest video White claims he had been doing it PART TIME until 2014. Doing any degree part time would take at least six years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGAvLSnQZN0
So this snark as you put it is uncalled for. Signed - 101.190.64.5 / talk
Sooo, I guess we can expect an actual graduation somewhere on the horizon? The problem is that Jarrah has been trading on his status as a student for well, many, many years, so the snark is accurate and quite in line with RW. See also concern troll and tone argument. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)



[edit] VLT/VLTI, April 24 2015

How can you allege that White is "deeply confused here", when in fact he specifically discusses using the VLTI for resolving the Apollo sites in his "Fly Jarrah White To The Moon Status REport #22" video. Quoting White from 4:53 onwards: "And so we see that to observe objects as small as the Lunar Module, what we need is a telescope with an angular resolution of at least 0.002 arcseconds. Well in a press release, the European Southern Observatory announced that working as an interferometer the VLT had an angular resolution of 1 milli-arcsecond. That is equal to 0.001 arcseconds. No wonder [Dr. Richard] West was so keen to try and use it to resolve the artifacts." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGmVbQZOeuc

Signed - 101.190.27.37

As is pointed out in the article, interferometry is very useful for nearly point sources and very bad for things like the moon that have low surface brightness but relatively bright apparent magnitude. PacWalker 14:42, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
BoN response. And yet Richard West proposed using VLTI for looking at the moon to try and resolve the Apollo hardware. White even posts a link to an article about this in his FAQ page. That article also specifically discusses using VLTI for resolving the Lunar Module. "Dr West said that the challenge pushed the optical abilities of one VLT mirror to its limits: if this attempt failed, the team planned to use the power of all four mirrors. "They would most probably be sufficiently sharp to show something at the sites," he said."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1414144/Worlds-biggest-telescope-to-prove-Americans-really-walked-on-Moon.html
I'll ask again: how can you allege that White is "deeply confused" when he specifically discusses using VLTI for looking at the artafacts and even cites an article quoting an ESO astronomer who proposed using VLTI for exactly that purpose?
Signed - 101.190.27.37

[edit] Van Allen, April 24 2015

We've been through this already. The findings by Van Allen that White refers to were published in the March 1959 issue of Scientific American and his 1961 Space World issue. In both articles Van Allen implies that he does not believe astronauts can be adequately shielded from the radiation and opts for flying through the radiation free "cones of escape" over the geomagnetic poles, which are far from Apollo's trajectory. White even provides pdfs of the articles in question on his site. Avoiding mention of these articles and instead referring readers to Van Allen's later reply to the Fox special, as though the reply to Fox was the reference White was referring to, is an strawman.

Signed - 101.190.27.37

You (a) don't know what a strawman is, (b) are misreading van Allen's papers grossly, and (c) are ignoring his work on the shielding used. PacWalker 14:16, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
(a) A strawman is when you misrepresent a person's position and then build your argument upon that misrepresentation. That is exactly what RW has done by avoiding mention of the Van Allen articles specifically referenced in White's FAQ, calling his paraphrasing of said articles "categorically untrue" and then pointing readers to his much latter reply to Fox as though said reply was White's reference. (b) Here are the articles in question. Kindly show me how I have misrepresented them. I pointed above that in both articles Van Allen made statements like "Unless some practical way can be found to shield space travelers" and "owing to the great penetrability of the high energy protons therein, effective shielding is beyond engineering feasibility", which imply that he doubted sufficient shielding could be supplied. And he opts for "taking off through the radiation free zone over the poles", or "cones of escape". (c) References please, by references I mean papers by Van Allen. The Apollo command module was already in development when Van Allen wrote the December 1961 Space World article.
http://moonfaker.com/images/misc/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf
http://moonfaker.com/images/misc/VanAllenBelts-SpaceWorld.pdf
The fact remains, the findings by Van Allen that White was referring to were published in the 1959 Scientific American and the 1961 Space World. What RW could have wrote was "Yes, Van Allen initially made these statements but later retracted", but instead you avoid mentioning these articles and promptly quote his later reply to Fox. This is a misrepresentation of White's position and therefore a strawman.
Signed - 101.190.27.37
From the 1959 article: "against which space travellers will have to be shielded," indicating a pretty clear lack of belief that said shielding is impossible. PacWalker 15:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
From the same article: "Our measurements show that the maximum radiation level as of 1958 is equivalent to between 10 and 100 roentgens per hour, depending on the still undetermined proportions of protons to electrons. Because a human being exposed for two days to even 10 roentgens would have only an even chance of survival, the radiation belts obviously present an obstacle to space flight. Unless some practical way can be found to shield space travelers against the effects of radiation, manned space rockets can best take off through the radiation free zone over the poles."
This clearly indicates that although Van Allen stated that shielding would help, at the time when he wrote the article he doubted that a sufficient amount of shielding could be supplied.
Signed - 101.190.27.37
And the other: "all manned spacecraft must steer clear of these two belts of radiation until adequate means of safeguarding the astronauts has been developed." This also is wholly inconsistent with the statement that he described it as impossible to escape the van Allen belts. PacWalker 15:41, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Actually, this statement contradicts your claim that Van Allen believed shielding was possible. Adequate shielding has either been developed or it has not yet been developed, you can't have it both ways and the statement you quote seems to be leaning towards the latter. Further, you have removed that quote from its context in an attempt to distort its intended meaning. Here is the full quote, with the censored portion in italics: "But, though mechanical and electrical equipment can operate within the high radiation areas, a living organism cannot survive this level of radiation damage. Hence, all manned space flight attempts must steer clear of these two belts of radiation until adequate means of safeguarding the astronauts has been developed."
Earlier in the same article Van Allen also reiterates his previous statement about flying through the radiation free zones over the Earth's poles. "The outer zone is much more difficult to avoid [than the inner zone]. There do appear to be "cones of escape" over the north and south geomagnetic poles. The half-angle of these outward opening cones is about 20°"
And again, these statements were written when the Command Module was under development. So far from being "wholly inconsistent with the statement that he described it as impossible to escape", these statements by Van Allen specifically indicate that he did not believe the shielding requirements could be met at the time and that he opted for a trajectory through a radiation-free zone that is far from Apollo's trajectory.
Clearly, you have neither represented White's position accurately nor have you represented Van Allen's position accurately. You quote Van Allen's later retraction without mentioning his original killer radiation statements that White has accurately paraphrased in his FAQ list. When pressed, you frantically wave your arms in the air and quotemine statements from those original articles in an attempt to twist them into statements supporting Van Allen's later retraction. That's extremely dishonest. If you can't be honest, then you shouldn't be writing Wiki articles.
Signed - 101.190.27.37

[edit] Tracking Apollo, April 24 2015

Another strawman. In this section of his FAQ page White is simply responding to Apollo defenders who claimed that radio amateurs, Jodrell Bank and others independent of NASA tracked Apollo "all the way to the moon and back", such individuals like shanedk. White points out that these independent individual never made such a claim, that they only tracked it during the time Apollo was near the moon, and the only parties who claim to have tracked Apollo "all the way to the moon" were either NASA's MSFN or NASA's DSN and therefore cannot be considered independent of NASA. If RW thinks it is "silly to demand independent tracking all the way", then I suggest you take it up with the Apollo defenders who erroneously made the claim in the first place instead of trying to pin it on White as though this "silly demand" originated with him.

Signed - 101.190.27.37

I agree that this particular quote fails to display ignorance itself, so I slashed it; we'll see if it stays gone. PacWalker 15:01, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Looks, like someone put it back in. Sigh.
Signed - 101.190.27.37
Ayup. Others, as well as I, disagree with PacWalker on this one. --Castaigne (talk) 15:29, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
And I give minimal fucks, so it appears it will stay there. PacWalker 15:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
And LO, consensus was achieved! And so it was done. --Castaigne (talk) 15:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps you would care to explain why you and others disagree with PacWalker? The statement clearly doesn't display ignorance by White, so why is it up there?
Signed - 101.190.27.37
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