Talk:Kent Hovind/Archive1
[edit] Layout
Regarding the last two or so changes to the layout, I think it's because I'm currently on a widescreen monitor it doesn't quite look right. It's like there isn't enough text to accommodate the templates and image without it messing up and turning fugly. I'm sure it'll be fine looking at it on bog-standard 1024x768. ArmondikoVtheist 09:06, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Challange section
The WP article says that challenge #4 is also abiogenisus. I'd tend to agree, as life wouldn't be life if it didn't reproduce in one way or another. CS Miller 19:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think that creationist that ask for money to promote that bullshit should be charged with fraud along with homeopaths. Pimobile (talk) 14:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
[edit] Saving Dino Land
So Eric Hovind raised $400,000 to "save" Dino land from the government, but there is a more interesting story going on, see this thread here. I will try and remember to parse it but if someone else comes along and wants to give it a shot. tmtoulouse 04:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Kent Hovind's New Web Site
Kent Hovind has a new web site called www.2peter3.com. --Cms13ca (talk) 23:43, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
[edit] One of his talks
Someone typed up one of his talks here. Can I do a refutation of it here or on some other page? If so, where should I do it? --Andy Franklinson (talk) 13:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Star in your userspace, i.e. "User:Andy Franklinson/My snazzy title" then when you're done to essay space. Or perhaps Main. ТySo long as they pretend to care, I will pretend to listen 14:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- ...Did you mean start? So I do it in my userpage and when I'm done, I post it as an essay? --Andy Franklinson (talk) 17:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. ТySo long as they pretend to care, I will pretend to listen 17:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- OK! Thank you! --Andy Franklinson (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. ТySo long as they pretend to care, I will pretend to listen 17:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- ...Did you mean start? So I do it in my userpage and when I'm done, I post it as an essay? --Andy Franklinson (talk) 17:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Could have avoided going to jail
I read somewhere that if Hovind and his wife had just co-operated with authorities they could of avoided jail sentences instead they tried everything possible to fight it. Some of these crazy antics include renouncing their citizenship and claiming that because they work for god he owns all their assets so they are not required to pay taxes. Should we mention some of these mis-adventures. — Unsigned, by: Sammygirl / talk / contribs 18:42, 28 July 2012
[edit] Kent 'breaks his silence'?
None other than Terry Hurlbut and his other side project, the Creation Science Hall of Fame apparently briefly posted a letter from Kent Hovind claiming that he was never a tax protestor. I say briefly because apparently his son asked to have the post taken down because Daddy had 'changed his mind'. Does anybody know what it said? On CNAV Terry claims that it was mailed out to others as well...--Martin Arrowsmith (talk) 01:15, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
[edit] He's a real character
I expanded the "all you need to know" section because he's one of the most colorful examples of creationist charlatans, and he had a huge impact on my intellectual and academic fate. I'm ashamed to admit that as a middle-schooler, I was quite religious and was easily swayed when I found his creationist seminars online. I became a vehement supporter of creationism quite easily, without knowing any actual proof to "back it up" simply because it "made sense" to my ingrained religious sensibilities. Lucky for me I grew out of it, but this child-like mindset is what plagues most creationists and they never "evolve" (pun intended) past that point; In high school I began to learn REAL science and quickly lost my faith after learning to think critically and rationally. I feel so awkward and embarrassed about my brief stint as a creationist but it supplied me with valuable insight into their minds, contrived reasoning, and the anti-creationist "persecution" they so adamantly believe exists. I recently graduated from college with a degree in that evil science creationists hate so much: biology. I focused on ecology ("applied evolution" as I like to call it) and botany. My interest in these fields was heavily sparked by Hovind and my transformation from gullible child into rational freethinker. Anyone else have an embarrassing story like that? Beatgroover (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
- Of course we all do! How many wrong things did I say or think on my way to my current perfection? Surely hundreds. Lesson? I'm probably still wrong 90% of the time :( ħuman
02:05, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Urgent priority
Due to some recent events, can we get a good clean-up of this article? For example, the 11th footnote is a deadlink, and needs to be fixed. Thank you. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 12:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, this needs to be polished to sheer beauty - David Gerard (talk) 15:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm just viewing this on my iPad while on vacation and refs 41 & 42 are way too long as they don't wrap. I don't know if this is iPad specific, a mistake in the markup or a bug in the cite template. Any way, it doesn't look good. Can someone with wiki-fu and time tidy this up so that the reference URL is masked in a short hyperlink.
Генгисevolving
17:13, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm just viewing this on my iPad while on vacation and refs 41 & 42 are way too long as they don't wrap. I don't know if this is iPad specific, a mistake in the markup or a bug in the cite template. Any way, it doesn't look good. Can someone with wiki-fu and time tidy this up so that the reference URL is masked in a short hyperlink.
- if this article is the subject of legal action, is it appropriate to make any changes to it ? could that be seen as an admission of guilt ? Hamster (talk) 17:19, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Probably not (IANAL, but I live in the UK and would blithely tidy this article) - David Gerard (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Just edit and improve as in normal cases. Any focus on it that causes us to make the article better is always a good thing. "Admission of guilt", lol. Might want to justify the use of the words based on "fraud" or remove them. A simple footnote saying we don't mean "fraud" in the legal sense but in the common sense might be enough. I assume we have at least footnoted the pdf of his jailhouse lawyering so far? Apparently he thinks we cost him two and a half million dollars. I fell on the floor laughing. I also chuckled at the fact that he is incarcerated up here in Berlin NH. Should I pay him a visit? Wearing and awesome RATWIKI T-shirt, of course? ħuman
02:10, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's getting better all the time! ħuman
04:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm wondering whether the "Scientific illiteracy" section should be trimmed - by summarizing the issues instead of delving in to a detailed (boring?) refutation. Perhaps a separate page could go in to more detail? Guy Incognito (talk) 03:29, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's getting better all the time! ħuman
- Just edit and improve as in normal cases. Any focus on it that causes us to make the article better is always a good thing. "Admission of guilt", lol. Might want to justify the use of the words based on "fraud" or remove them. A simple footnote saying we don't mean "fraud" in the legal sense but in the common sense might be enough. I assume we have at least footnoted the pdf of his jailhouse lawyering so far? Apparently he thinks we cost him two and a half million dollars. I fell on the floor laughing. I also chuckled at the fact that he is incarcerated up here in Berlin NH. Should I pay him a visit? Wearing and awesome RATWIKI T-shirt, of course? ħuman
- Probably not (IANAL, but I live in the UK and would blithely tidy this article) - David Gerard (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Liens dammed lines and Hovind.
The "liens" thing seems to be important in the Hovind case. But I really don't know what one of these is - and I suspect that I won't be alone.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 16:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Liens is when someone makes an official claim to all or partial ownership to property. This prevents sale or ensures they get a portion of that sale. For example, if you don't pay the IRS they can put a lien on your property so that any sale of that property has to pay the IRS the amount on the lien, or prevents sale all together. Private individuals can also do liens, most commonly this is unpaid contract or development work.
- Hovind's property was confiscated by the government to help pay back taxes. Hovind filed liens against that property saying he had a vest interest in it. This of course is not legal, and hopefully he will be found in contempt of court for it. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:38, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- OH OK. I was confused because all the "liens" stuff is in the section "Kent E. Hovind v. Rational Media Foundation" which made me think that we were involved in some way. But now that I read it again I see that it is simply giving background. I do think though with the "pro se lawsuit" filed by him the "liens" which may or may not have been filed by him, the "complaint" and the "summons" along with "John doe editors" we are in danger confusing people who are not familiar with legal terminology - or possibly American legal terminology.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 16:48, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Since there's now a separate mainspace entry for Kent E. Hovind v. Rational Media Foundation, it might be better for this kind of detail to be addressed there, with brief explanations of the relevant legal terms, rather than on this page, which is already quite long by RW standards. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:01, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- +1 - David Gerard (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm all for neutral explanations of terms that come from a reputable source like Black's Law Dictionary. As an RW editor, I am appalled that people aren't being more critical of a ranting first person essay that refers to nonsense like the "lawsuit fairy", grossly inaccurately describes the facts and law, and gets into irrelevant tangents just to snarkily smear Hovind. Sure, he's a clown, but an RW article isn't the place to try and dress him down. I'd expect to see the kind of tone presented in that thing on ED. And who the fuck is this Grhh person? Meh.

21:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- You are objecting to "snarkiness"? That was my impression of this project. The first line in this entry is: "Kent Hovind (or, to use his full academic title, Mr. Kent Hovind)." For the record, I took the template from numerous refutations, like The Search for a Search - Measuring the Information Cost of Higher Level Search that use condescending language, questions and first person. If you don't find my additions helpful, I'll stop adding material and the links to court documents, rulings and news articles. "And who the fuck is this Grhh person" ... is a great way to get new editors. Ghnn (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- OK, Ghnn, you cite the most badly structured article I have ever seen on RW to justify... what? More bad writing and incoherent structure? ħuman
02:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- OK, Ghnn, you cite the most badly structured article I have ever seen on RW to justify... what? More bad writing and incoherent structure? ħuman
- Ghnn - Nutty is an actual lawyer, so gets tetchy about this sort of thing, particularly when we're getting sued (even if it is by an idiot).
- Nutty - please be kind to n00bs! Even ones doing legally-silly things. Well, slightly kind - David Gerard (talk) 12:11, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- You are objecting to "snarkiness"? That was my impression of this project. The first line in this entry is: "Kent Hovind (or, to use his full academic title, Mr. Kent Hovind)." For the record, I took the template from numerous refutations, like The Search for a Search - Measuring the Information Cost of Higher Level Search that use condescending language, questions and first person. If you don't find my additions helpful, I'll stop adding material and the links to court documents, rulings and news articles. "And who the fuck is this Grhh person" ... is a great way to get new editors. Ghnn (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm all for neutral explanations of terms that come from a reputable source like Black's Law Dictionary. As an RW editor, I am appalled that people aren't being more critical of a ranting first person essay that refers to nonsense like the "lawsuit fairy", grossly inaccurately describes the facts and law, and gets into irrelevant tangents just to snarkily smear Hovind. Sure, he's a clown, but an RW article isn't the place to try and dress him down. I'd expect to see the kind of tone presented in that thing on ED. And who the fuck is this Grhh person? Meh.
- +1 - David Gerard (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Since there's now a separate mainspace entry for Kent E. Hovind v. Rational Media Foundation, it might be better for this kind of detail to be addressed there, with brief explanations of the relevant legal terms, rather than on this page, which is already quite long by RW standards. ωεαşεζόίď
- OH OK. I was confused because all the "liens" stuff is in the section "Kent E. Hovind v. Rational Media Foundation" which made me think that we were involved in some way. But now that I read it again I see that it is simply giving background. I do think though with the "pro se lawsuit" filed by him the "liens" which may or may not have been filed by him, the "complaint" and the "summons" along with "John doe editors" we are in danger confusing people who are not familiar with legal terminology - or possibly American legal terminology.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 16:48, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- A lis pendens is a lien that gets recorded at the county recorder's office against real property over which someone is litigating his interest. The point is to notify anyone else who has, may come to have, or may be considering having an interest in the property notice of proceedings that may affect him.
- I can't comment on the lawsuit article itself because of the /w/index.php error, but isn't it generally a bad idea to comment on legal proceedings like this in general? As Nutty has pointed out, one of the defendants is the owner of this wiki, after all. - Grant (Talk) 22:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Some basic analysis of the suit's assertions & the background may be a good idea (i.e. what a lien/lis pendens is, what these specific liens were about). Analysis suggesting that the lawsuit is frivolous or vexatious is best kept out of mainspace, at least while the suit is pending. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 13:45, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Some basic analysis of the suit's assertions & the background may be a good idea (i.e. what a lien/lis pendens is, what these specific liens were about). Analysis suggesting that the lawsuit is frivolous or vexatious is best kept out of mainspace, at least while the suit is pending. Wèàšèìòìď
- I can't comment on the lawsuit article itself because of the /w/index.php error, but isn't it generally a bad idea to comment on legal proceedings like this in general? As Nutty has pointed out, one of the defendants is the owner of this wiki, after all. - Grant (Talk) 22:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- A lis pendens is a lien that gets recorded at the county recorder's office against real property over which someone is litigating his interest. The point is to notify anyone else who has, may come to have, or may be considering having an interest in the property notice of proceedings that may affect him.
[edit] Fraud or not fraud?
It seems like an important element of the story is that Hovind denies that "fraud" is at play, while others assert it is. That debate is presently scattered throughout the article. Should we maybe gather it in one place and highlight it as a specific part of his legal story? TeenageWasteland (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- I tried to do so with a footnote (long gone, no problem) by saying "we mean the word fraud in the common sense, not the legal sense". Others may chime in on this concept. ħuman
02:08, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- As an editor, I'm concerned about lay people doing anything more than neutrally reporting what the allegations of the complaint are. The lawsuit might be a big deal to the RMF, but it's probably not that interesting to anyone else in the grand scheme of things, so I question how much needs to be said beyond simply stating that the suit was filed over his allegations of defamation. That's it. What are they? They seem to be around several uses of the words "fraud" and "fraudulent". These words have both colloquial and legal meanings. I don't know and won't comment on what the law is, and I'm not anyone here's lawyer. However, as a practical matter, considering these words are what caused Hovind to sue in the first place, I'm curious why people wouldn't be more interested in simply preserving the status quo and leaving the thing as it is. You do realize that he sued John Does precisely because they're the ones he thinks added the words he's complaining of, right? You do realize that even if anyone here thinks his lawsuit is frivolous, he will seek the identities of any John Doe in discovery, right? That ought to set off alarm bells. 192.249.58.96 (talk) 02:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Unrelated: the Captcha was: "What do you associate Wisconsin with?" The answer was, of course, "cheese". I wonder how many non-Americans would know that? I only did because I'm a huge Packers fan. 192.249.58.96 (talk) 02:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Can somebody please explain what "through discovery" or "in discovery" actually means? Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 02:43, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- According to another wiki, in UK civil cases it's called disclosure, if that helps. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- wp:Discovery_(law)#At_the_Federal_level

02:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- wp:Discovery_(law)#At_the_Federal_level
- According to another wiki, in UK civil cases it's called disclosure, if that helps. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Can somebody please explain what "through discovery" or "in discovery" actually means? Wèàšèìòìď
- Unrelated: the Captcha was: "What do you associate Wisconsin with?" The answer was, of course, "cheese". I wonder how many non-Americans would know that? I only did because I'm a huge Packers fan. 192.249.58.96 (talk) 02:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- As an editor, I'm concerned about lay people doing anything more than neutrally reporting what the allegations of the complaint are. The lawsuit might be a big deal to the RMF, but it's probably not that interesting to anyone else in the grand scheme of things, so I question how much needs to be said beyond simply stating that the suit was filed over his allegations of defamation. That's it. What are they? They seem to be around several uses of the words "fraud" and "fraudulent". These words have both colloquial and legal meanings. I don't know and won't comment on what the law is, and I'm not anyone here's lawyer. However, as a practical matter, considering these words are what caused Hovind to sue in the first place, I'm curious why people wouldn't be more interested in simply preserving the status quo and leaving the thing as it is. You do realize that he sued John Does precisely because they're the ones he thinks added the words he's complaining of, right? You do realize that even if anyone here thinks his lawsuit is frivolous, he will seek the identities of any John Doe in discovery, right? That ought to set off alarm bells. 192.249.58.96 (talk) 02:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Kent Hovind's been busy with lawsuits
It seems Hovind is unhappy with his prison warden and just sued him: Hovind v. FCI Berlin, Warden. — Unsigned, by: Hopper89 / talk / contribs
- For habeas corpus, no less. PERHAPS THEY WILL TELL HIM WHY HE IS IN JAIL - David Gerard (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Though actually, a list of every suit he's filed from his cell would be interesting and relevant - David Gerard (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Added two.
- cool, ty :-)
- The habeas corpus suit is actually asking for an extra six months' early release, on top of the six months he should actually get for being a well-behaved prisoner - David Gerard (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Pleadings and public record
Rather than link to this 2Peter site, which Hovind's pal controls, for references to pleadings and documents in the public record, I suggest that we upload and wikilink the documents themselves. It's just a matter of time before the 2Peter site owner removes those documents once he sees traffic coming from RW. ![]()
16:24, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- +1 - David Gerard (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- +5 - ħuman
02:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- is this Hopper person legit? ħuman
06:03, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously, clear improvements to an article are deeply suspect and you're right on the money being as obnoxious as possible. WTF? - David Gerard (talk) 13:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Dave, what? I asked if a noobie with no user page who is all over this and doesn't know how to sign is legit. Apparently they are? ħuman
02:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Dave, what? I asked if a noobie with no user page who is all over this and doesn't know how to sign is legit. Apparently they are? ħuman
- Obviously, clear improvements to an article are deeply suspect and you're right on the money being as obnoxious as possible. WTF? - David Gerard (talk) 13:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- is this Hopper person legit? ħuman
- +5 - ħuman
- Agreed. All the files need saved and stored. Human, nothing wrong with skepticism. Just check the references. — Unsigned, by: Hopper89 / talk / contribs
- On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button:
on the toolbar above the edit panel. (You can indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line.) Thank you. Do we really need all those quotes within footnotes? Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 08:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the quotes support the ideas in the mainspace and given the pro se client's recent legal history, a good idea too. Hopper89 (talk) 16:17, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, sadly I think we really do - David Gerard (talk) 19:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button:
[edit] Hovind's update to his fans on this suit
Posted to Facebook by fan Gea Ambrosia, forwarded to the RW Facebook group by Robert Baty.
| BEFORE you judge me in this matter for what I have done .... (Mt. 7:1) :))
BEFORE you even read what I have done (posted on 2peter3.com)... :)) BEFORE you say, "Oh brother! Hovind is at it again!... :)) BEFORE YOU SAY, "I would never do that!..." (Prov. 18:13) PLEASE read and consider the following: 1. God made it CLEAR in the 10 commandments (NOT 10 suggestions) "Thou shalt NOT bear false witness." Ex. 20:16; Mt. 19:18; Mk. 10:19; Acts 6:13 and scores of other verses. 2. "The law is good, if a man use it lawfully." I Timothy 1:8. 3. Paul told his preacher boy Titus that some people must be made to "shut up" because they were leading whole houses astray! "Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not (like evolution? or that I broke some law?) for filthy lucre's sake." Titus 1:11. Some of the skeptic and atheist web sites are causing people to doubt God's Word and leading them astray. (See also Psalm 63:11; Rom. 3:19) 4. The children of Israel just wanted to go home after 400 years of slavery but Amalek came out to fight with them. Amalek started it but Moses and the boys explained it and helped them "get the point" (of the sword.) Ex. 17:8-16. Wars of aggression are generally wrong but wars to defend against aggression are generally fine. Don't start a fight but fight back to win if the situation calls for it. Confederate General Forrest said, "Attack! Always attack!" (Same idea in The Art of War and many of Louis Lamoure's books. :)) 5. Nehemiah just wanted to build the wall that God had told him to build but a few power hungry morons in town tried to stop him so he had to hold a sword for a while to help them "get the point" as well. (Neh. 4). 6. America has laws (as do other countries) that everyone (including the government) should follow. There are obvious limits to the "freedom of speech" like NOT yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater. Making false and defamatory statements or falsely accusing someone of committing a crime like "fraud" or making statements that are considered "Libel, Libel per Se and Injurious Falsehood" about someone is a crime! They need to be stopped. 7. Jesus said men will "give account" of "every idle word...." Matthew 12:36. If there is "justice" in the courts in America and England, (we have contact info for the two authors in England) these folks will give account (and damages) here, to me (and to the courts) on this one AND they will re-e-e-e-ally give account before God one day! So will YOU and I! 8. All through the Bible God would smite some folks so that others would fear to do the same sin. "Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware." Pro. 19:25. See also Pro. 21:11; 22:10; 24:9. I'm a peace loving man but... as "Wayne" said in the excellent movie "FireProof"..."It's on now! They done lite a fuse!" Or as the Sackets often say in Louis Lamoure's books, "They brought it to me. They opened the ball so they can dance to the tune!" (I have grown to love Louis' books in here!) If you find where ANYONE else (anywhere in the world) has published libelous statements about me (like documented in the suit)-not just mean or ugly or stupid statements-I get those all the time- but libelous-accusing me a breaking a law- please copy the entire article and all info you can find on the author and web site owner or founder and we will help them stop lying the same way we are helping the folks at "rationalwiki.org" understand. I'm done letting them (or anyone else!) get by with it and harming my reputation and the outreach I have for the Lord. Be sure to copy it all since they will probably delete the web site once they are served. No problem, once they publish it, they have broken the law. It's too late! So-o-o-o-o-o, after my legal team and I read the lies posted about me on "rationalwiki.com" Feb. 8, 2014 we decided that was ENOUGH. Their lies harm my reputation (and Alex's) and cause folks to not watch my DVDs and get saved. (See Ecclesiastes 10:1) On Feb. 20, 2014 we mailed in the lawsuit against Rationalwiki Foundation of 122 Girard Av. Albuquerque, NM 87106 and the article authors to the Northern District of Florida Federal Court (where I was tried). Case # 3:14cv94/RV/CJK. You can get a pacer account www.pacer.gov and follow along as documents are sent in if you like. I am suing the Rational Wiki Foundation and each of the authors and Alex, who is also lied about in their articles, is suing them separately as well. Two authors are in England so the US Marshals will serve the British Embassy in Washington and their officials in England will serve them there. My sources tell me the skeptic and atheist web sites are buzzing about the suit. They think it is not going to do anything and they hope I will be given more time in prison over this. We'll see who's laughing in a few months. We will keep you posted right here on details and developments in this lawsuit. Send comments to dr.dino@2peter3.com. |
His understanding of the law, and of how to sue UK people from the US, is ... quite remarkable. Can anyone find a suit from Alex? - David Gerard (talk) 19:17, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- How far back do--what would you call them, server logs? data base logs?--anyway, the data that says that edit # 4567 from user: NeckBeardFedoraInMomsBasement was made from IP address 345.567.678 go? To what extent can the webmasters provide meaningful information on individual edits? TeenageWasteland (talk) 19:28, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- The RecentChanges table goes back a month by default, I think (haven't looked what RW does). We have Squid logs with IPs back to late 2012 (unless they accidentally got deleted - we don't care so much about the versions with IPs, but the anonymised versions would be great to build our own version of stats.grok.se), but those may or may not match with the edits themselves. In any case, such things would only be released if RMF was legally required to, in which case your volunteer sysadmins would sigh and do so - David Gerard (talk) 23:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- That said, the article history (sure Dave you know this!) goes back to its creation, showing every single edit made to a page, with the author's user name or IP address recorded. ħuman
02:37, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- That said, the article history (sure Dave you know this!) goes back to its creation, showing every single edit made to a page, with the author's user name or IP address recorded. ħuman
- How much information has been provided to Hovind &/or his attorney? He seems to have somehow established that "two authors are in England" while still apparently believing that the article dates from 8 Feb 2014 with no prior history, which suggests the page history hasn't been looked at properly. Weaseloid
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:43, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- The RecentChanges table goes back a month by default, I think (haven't looked what RW does). We have Squid logs with IPs back to late 2012 (unless they accidentally got deleted - we don't care so much about the versions with IPs, but the anonymised versions would be great to build our own version of stats.grok.se), but those may or may not match with the edits themselves. In any case, such things would only be released if RMF was legally required to, in which case your volunteer sysadmins would sigh and do so - David Gerard (talk) 23:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Alex filed suit, but in Virginia #1:2014-cv-00207. The suit/claims are near identical. According to PACER, the 2014 cases:
|
MATTHEWS, ALEXANDER OTIS (pla) dcdce 1:2014-cv-00248 550 02/18/2014 02/18/2014 (Order Dismissing Pro Se Case) Matthews, Alexander Otis (pla) mddce 8:2014-cv-00500 550 02/20/2014 (Motion for Leave to Proceed in forma pauperis) Matthews, Alexander Otis (pet) nhdce 1:2013-cv-00282 530 07/10/2013 01/28/2014 Matthews, Alexander Otis (pla) vaedce 1:2013-cv-00450 550 04/11/2013 02/12/2014 Matthews, Alexander Otis (pla) vaedce 1:2013-cv-01020 550 08/19/2013 01/22/2014 (Order Dismissing Case) Matthews, Alexander Otis (pla) vaedce 1:2014-cv-00207 550 02/26/2014 (Motion for Leave to Proceed in forma pauperis) |
- I did the grunt work and the first use of "fraud" on the good mister's page was here. By an IP address. ħuman
04:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Did you look where it is located? The Netherlands! (also more than two years ago and six years after the Pensacola News Journal used the term about Hovind) I guess Hovind will have to serve another "embassy." Hopper89 (talk) 06:00, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- According to this, it's in Bedford, UK.
ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD member
15:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- According to this, it's in Amsterdam, NL. Hopper89 (talk) 16:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- That just seems to be the location of RIPE NCC which is the internet registry (one of a few in the world). The IP address is assigned by RIPE to Sky Broadband in the UK, as per Genghis's link. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 17:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- That just seems to be the location of RIPE NCC which is the internet registry (one of a few in the world). The IP address is assigned by RIPE to Sky Broadband in the UK, as per Genghis's link. Wėąṣėḷőįď
- According to this, it's in Amsterdam, NL. Hopper89 (talk) 16:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- According to this, it's in Bedford, UK.
- Did you look where it is located? The Netherlands! (also more than two years ago and six years after the Pensacola News Journal used the term about Hovind) I guess Hovind will have to serve another "embassy." Hopper89 (talk) 06:00, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I did the grunt work and the first use of "fraud" on the good mister's page was here. By an IP address. ħuman
By the way, Hovind credited help with the Lis Pendens to Matthews here:
| After hearing and reading about the injustice in my case he jumped right on it and 4 days later we filed a "Bivins" lawsuit in the court in S. Carolina. Details for all the legal actions below are posted on www.2peter3.com. Alex is writing a book about the incredible injustice in his case which he is fighting as well. It is called My America and will be on www.my-america.org when finished. A few chapters are there now. In May the IRS was threatening (again) to sell the ministry property putting the family in a panic (again). Alex helped me file a "lis pendens" which stops all action on the property until the S.C. lawsuit is resolved. |
That should be saved if these files get removed from Hovind's website. Hopper89 (talk) 07:19, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- That's a great quote and indeed must be saved somehow beyond citing it here. Sorry if I doubted you last week, Hopper, but I hope you understand I saw you as a newbie (welcome to the Dollhouse!) all over an important article. Your bona fides are now well known, of course. ħuman
02:41, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] What is "tax fraud"?
In the US is there a specific crime called "tax fraud" or is it simply the common layman's term for playing jiggery pokery with your tax returns? Or, a is often the case, is there a specific legal term and a common daily use term? This seems to suggest it's a pretty catch-all concept.--Coffee (talk) 13:06, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- It looks like this is the government link I want. After defining fraud it states: "Tax fraud is often defined as an intentional wrongdoing, on the part of a taxpayer, with the specific purpose of evading a tax known or believed to be owing. Tax fraud requires both: a tax due and owing; and fraudulent intent." That looks clear enough.--Coffee (talk) 16:53, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- And the appeals court wrote: "The government proved that Kent knew the tax laws required the collection and payment of withholding taxes, but he refused to comply . . . the jury was entitled to find that Kent knew about and deliberately violated the tax laws." Hopper89 (talk) 17:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- A little light reading to add to Hopper 89's link: the tax crimes handbook. Tax evasion is a specific criminal charge with a specific set of elements that the government must prove. 'Tax evasion' is also a colloqual umbrella term for various tax crimes. Context is key. Similarly there are a number of tax crimes with fraud in their names, but 'tax fraud' is also a colloquial umbrella term for various tax crimes involving fraud. Guy Incognito (talk) 11:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- And the appeals court wrote: "The government proved that Kent knew the tax laws required the collection and payment of withholding taxes, but he refused to comply . . . the jury was entitled to find that Kent knew about and deliberately violated the tax laws." Hopper89 (talk) 17:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Re: crime of creationism
I have a feeling we should change the caption under his mug shot. It currently states: "Kent Hovind's mugshot. Unfortunately, Creation Science is not a crime. Fortunately, tax evasion is." This doesn't seem like what we *really* want. Discredited, sure- constantly, in fact. But a crime?
- Well based on what Columbia University Press' 2007 book Evolution: what the fossils say and why it matters has to say regarding Jack Chick's Big Daddy? which in 2002 cited Kent Hovind as being "typical of the genre" says on the matter one can understand the position. Phrases like "misleading and dishonest", "deceptive and misleading", and "an obvious attempt at trickery and distortion" leave little doubt as to the author's view of what is going on.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Hovind writes PZ Myers and Myers replies
Not sure if this is worth adding to the article, but he does mention RationalWiki. Hopper89 (talk) 18:22, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- It could be, but the letter reads as "whining" so it could be politely skipped. Zero (talk) 18:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- It should be linked (or even copied for thoroughness). I'm not finished reading but "I did NOT break any laws but the government probably did" made me fall off my chair. Twice. Of course, Kentie Baby, no one in Federal Prison ever broke any laws, and I am sure you were framed by corrupt government agents. Is there a better way of typing "I am LAUGHING OUT LOUD"? Perhaps the spear shaker said it best, when he wrote "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". ħuman
02:49, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Damn, the more I read, the more Kent in gaol writes like Kendoll in Buffalo. Read points 13-18... ħuman
02:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- PZ Myers totally mans up with "7. You are a convicted fraud." A complete invitation to a similar crappy lawsuit. My hero. ħuman
02:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are undoubtedly a few creationists who appear, to all extents and purposes, quite smart (apart from the YEC elephant in the room). However, Hovind is undoubtedly dumb on all counts; and not just plain dumb, but Karajou-level dumb.
ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science.
09:34, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Hovind's latest reply to Myers is interesting:
- There are undoubtedly a few creationists who appear, to all extents and purposes, quite smart (apart from the YEC elephant in the room). However, Hovind is undoubtedly dumb on all counts; and not just plain dumb, but Karajou-level dumb.
- PZ Myers totally mans up with "7. You are a convicted fraud." A complete invitation to a similar crappy lawsuit. My hero. ħuman
- Damn, the more I read, the more Kent in gaol writes like Kendoll in Buffalo. Read points 13-18... ħuman
- It should be linked (or even copied for thoroughness). I'm not finished reading but "I did NOT break any laws but the government probably did" made me fall off my chair. Twice. Of course, Kentie Baby, no one in Federal Prison ever broke any laws, and I am sure you were framed by corrupt government agents. Is there a better way of typing "I am LAUGHING OUT LOUD"? Perhaps the spear shaker said it best, when he wrote "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". ħuman
| You are either lying (again) or unable to understand simple English here. I have NEVER been convicted of fraud. There was no fraud in my case. You (and the folks at “Rational” Wiki) seem to like that word for some reason but it does not apply. Words have meanings PZ. You (and the rationalwiki folks) seem to play fast and loose with words. Like the word “science” for example. You freely include a lot of religion in with your science. I think “fraud” may apply to a person who claims to teach “biology” yet routinely mixes his religious beliefs in class about all life forms having a common ancestor or humans being related to bananas and humans being a fish (as you stated in the “Evolution vs. God” DVD). Maybe “charlatan” is a better word for these false teachers. Maybe the courts will explain to the folks at “Rational” Wiki that words have meanings and it is not good to falsely accuse someone of the crime of fraud (unless you have proof). |
[edit] And the lawsuit from Mr Hovind's cellmate
File:Matthews Libel Suit.pdf - this one filed in Virginia - David Gerard (talk) 00:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can't access that pdf; getting a 404. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 00:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Nice work! How many more convicted felons can we get sued by this month? Beware the Ides, my criminal non-friends. ħuman
03:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- LOL, "Alexander OTIS Matthews". The irony is strong on that.
ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.
09:49, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even their typos are the same in the filings. As already mentioned above, but relevant to the complaints in both claims: In May 2013, Hovind wrote: "Kent E. Hovind asks that this Memorandum of Lis Pendens be recorded as a lien" and later noted:
- LOL, "Alexander OTIS Matthews". The irony is strong on that.
- Nice work! How many more convicted felons can we get sued by this month? Beware the Ides, my criminal non-friends. ħuman
| After hearing and reading about the injustice in my case he jumped right on it and 4 days later we filed a "Bivins" lawsuit in the court in S. Carolina. Details for all the legal actions below are posted on www.2peter3.com. Alex is writing a book about the incredible injustice in his case which he is fighting as well. It is called My America and will be on www.my-america.org when finished. A few chapters are there now. In May the IRS was threatening (again) to sell the ministry property putting the family in a panic (again). Alex helped me file a "lis pendens" which stops all action on the property until the S.C. lawsuit is resolved. |
- I also see an order has been made by the judge in Hovind's S. Carolina case. Can anyone pull up that? Hopper89 (talk) 14:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- "REPORT AND RECOMMENDATION re 22 MOTION to Dismiss filed by Mr Dial, William G Anderson. It is recommended that the defendants' motion to dismiss be granted. Objections to R&R due by 3/24/2014." PDF is here Guy Incognito (talk) 00:43, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting that. It seems that despite Hovind's vast knowledge of the law, for the last nearly 8 months he has been misspelling "bivens" as "bivins." And despite claims in Matthews' lawsuit about the case being in discovery, the magistrate is recommending the case be dismissed base on the US government's motion in the fall. IANAL, doesn't discovery start after the government rules in a motion to dismiss the case, not before? Hopper89 (talk) 13:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- "REPORT AND RECOMMENDATION re 22 MOTION to Dismiss filed by Mr Dial, William G Anderson. It is recommended that the defendants' motion to dismiss be granted. Objections to R&R due by 3/24/2014." PDF is here Guy Incognito (talk) 00:43, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- I also see an order has been made by the judge in Hovind's S. Carolina case. Can anyone pull up that? Hopper89 (talk) 14:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- In October 2013, Hovind wrote:
| ... my new legal helper had a brilliant idea and on May 29, 2013 I filed a lis pendens in the county office to stop the sale of any other properties until the lawsuit in S. Car. is decided since the outcome of that may overturn all the rest. On Oct. 2, 2013 Judge Rodgers ordered the lis pendens lifted. As I understand the procedure, the state court of Florida will now have to notify me since federal judges don't control property issues, state courts do, and I can then object and pursue a remedy in state court. |
- In February 2014, Hovind wrote:
| ... I sent out a blog on Feb 1 asking folks to write the Supreme Court on behalf of my 'celli' and friend and legal helper Alexander Matthews. |
This article has some more detail about Matthews, talking more about his mortgage scheme and explains even before that:
|
Matthews has a history of state real estate violations in Virginia dating back to 1999 just three years after he obtained his first real estate license, according to public records filed in the state of Virginia. His license to practice real estate sales was revoked in 2007 after the state licensing regulatory commission found 14 violations of state laws and regulations. |
[edit] Escambia Clerk of Courts links dead
The Escambia Clerk of Courts document links, like this, are dead because the PDFs aren't stable links. The references should just link to the database and name the document number so people can check it. Hopper89 (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] SCOTUS
SCOTUS denies hearing the case. Should we discuss the legal history of the case at all? — Unsigned, by: 130.113.218.226 / talk / contribs