Talk:Lenski affair
[edit] Consequences: Digg
I first found out about this imbroglio from an Ars Technica article Bacteria evolve; Conservapedia demands recount that was Dugg. As of Sun 6 Jul 2008 06:06:48 PM, there were 1237 diggs.
If you do a Google search on "Lenski Conservapedia" there are currently "about 39,500" hits. BlankVerse 21:18, 6 July 2008 (EDT)
- I just found the Conservapedia article at reddit.com under the title: "Conservapedia tries to make Prof. Richard Lenski prove his E. Coli experiment is not a fraud. Lenski responds with an extensive smackdown" with 1584 hits. BlankVerse 21:27, 6 July 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Statistics
- I strongly believe in evolution. BUt Lenki's experiment seems so statistically unlikely that i borders on impossible. The required amount of synergistic mutations to the appropriate genes occuring within the span of 30 years seems downright impossible. Just one mans opinion. Were not talking aout some bogus christian theory on irreducible complexity, but this is just very very, very unlikely.— Unsigned, by: 74.222.210.4 / talk / contribs
- I'm no statistician, but surely Mr 74, out of all the gazillions of bacteria involved, wouldn't that make an important mutation more likely? It's not like there's one bacterium involved in each generation. Totnesmartin 09:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also: it is extremely unlikely that any particular thirteen card hand at bridge should be dealt; once it has been, however, it is not unlikely, it is a fact. Statistics cannot be applied in this manner to things which have already occurred. This message brought to you by:
respondand honey 09:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- What I really mean there is the probability of something happening in the future can be estimated statistically, but the probability of the current situation is statistical nonsense - it is fact. BoN, you read as if you're accusing Prof Lenski of fraud.Are you a biologist/biochemist/geneticist? This message brought to you by:
respondand honey 10:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Another analogy is winning the lottery - the chances are about 1 in 14 million in the UK but somebody does win almost every week. Of course the chance of it happening to any particular person is very low, but still real. It annoys me when those who happen to be the statistical outlier then ascribe their good fortune to prayer or the will of gOD. What about the millions of others who also prayed and never got a penny?
ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD member 10:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Another analogy is winning the lottery - the chances are about 1 in 14 million in the UK but somebody does win almost every week. Of course the chance of it happening to any particular person is very low, but still real. It annoys me when those who happen to be the statistical outlier then ascribe their good fortune to prayer or the will of gOD. What about the millions of others who also prayed and never got a penny?
- What I really mean there is the probability of something happening in the future can be estimated statistically, but the probability of the current situation is statistical nonsense - it is fact. BoN, you read as if you're accusing Prof Lenski of fraud.Are you a biologist/biochemist/geneticist? This message brought to you by:
- Also: it is extremely unlikely that any particular thirteen card hand at bridge should be dealt; once it has been, however, it is not unlikely, it is a fact. Statistics cannot be applied in this manner to things which have already occurred. This message brought to you by:
- I'm no statistician, but surely Mr 74, out of all the gazillions of bacteria involved, wouldn't that make an important mutation more likely? It's not like there's one bacterium involved in each generation. Totnesmartin 09:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I strongly believe in evolution. BUt Lenki's experiment seems so statistically unlikely that i borders on impossible. The required amount of synergistic mutations to the appropriate genes occuring within the span of 30 years seems downright impossible. Just one mans opinion. Were not talking aout some bogus christian theory on irreducible complexity, but this is just very very, very unlikely.— Unsigned, by: 74.222.210.4 / talk / contribs
User:74.222.210.4 and User:Toast should both consider a course in statistics. I'd love to play poker with the latter -- after I've produced my fifth royal flush in a row, when she accuses me of cheating because the chances of that happening randomly are so minute, I will simply point out that the probability of the current situation is statistical nonsense -- it is fact, heh heh. -- 98.108.209.12 (talk) 21:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Meh, don't think you really under stood Toast's point. There are two points, apply probability post-hoc to a specific sequence when a priori there was no preferred sequence, and the power of large numbers. The chances of getting any particular sequence of hands in a poker game is extremely small, so if you look at any sequence of hands and calculate the probability you could get that sequence it will be impossible. The other point is the power of large numbers, you getting 5 royal flushes in a row is statistically extremely low, however, if given enough poker players the chances that one of them will get 5 royal flushes in a row increases pretty quickly. tmtoulouse 21:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- I understood it perfectly, but you entirely missed mine. You might want to ponder that I said that both Toast and User:74.222.210.4 need a course in statistics -- the latter acknowledges Toast's point about a posteriori vs. a priori, but the notion that probability analysis of an event after it happens is "statistical nonsense" is wrong and stupid -- almost as stupid as your "the probability you could get that sequence it will be impossible". 98.108.209.12 (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- So basically your criticism of Toast (and now me) comes down to a being a pendant about choice of words on a wiki talk page. Your right, that "impossible" is not technically correct but if you were to calculate the probability of a sequence of cards being selected over 5-6 hands, that specific sequence would have an extremely small probability of occurring, so small that for practical, though not technical, purposes you could call it impossible. Trying to take that calculated probability and then use it to demonstrate why I could not have gotten a set of 5 sequences of cards after it all ready happened is statistical nonsense. tmtoulouse 22:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- The odds against 5 royal flushes in a row are probably on the order of E15 against. But it is still possible. And if it happens, it happens. The odds of life being the way it is on Earth are 1, since it has now happened. Anyway, the odds aren't that bad. Molecules tend to interact in fairly predictable - high odds - ways. Given a reasonable starting point like water being available in a liquid state and a reasonable amount of C, N, O, and a source of high energy rays (light from a star), it's almost certain that what started life on Earth would happen. What happens next is up to random cosmology (ie, life destroying events) and evolution by natural selection of the chemicals. ħuman
02:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- The odds against 5 royal flushes in a row are probably on the order of E15 against. But it is still possible. And if it happens, it happens. The odds of life being the way it is on Earth are 1, since it has now happened. Anyway, the odds aren't that bad. Molecules tend to interact in fairly predictable - high odds - ways. Given a reasonable starting point like water being available in a liquid state and a reasonable amount of C, N, O, and a source of high energy rays (light from a star), it's almost certain that what started life on Earth would happen. What happens next is up to random cosmology (ie, life destroying events) and evolution by natural selection of the chemicals. ħuman
- So basically your criticism of Toast (and now me) comes down to a being a pendant about choice of words on a wiki talk page. Your right, that "impossible" is not technically correct but if you were to calculate the probability of a sequence of cards being selected over 5-6 hands, that specific sequence would have an extremely small probability of occurring, so small that for practical, though not technical, purposes you could call it impossible. Trying to take that calculated probability and then use it to demonstrate why I could not have gotten a set of 5 sequences of cards after it all ready happened is statistical nonsense. tmtoulouse 22:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- I understood it perfectly, but you entirely missed mine. You might want to ponder that I said that both Toast and User:74.222.210.4 need a course in statistics -- the latter acknowledges Toast's point about a posteriori vs. a priori, but the notion that probability analysis of an event after it happens is "statistical nonsense" is wrong and stupid -- almost as stupid as your "the probability you could get that sequence it will be impossible". 98.108.209.12 (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Consolidation
Has there been any thought to consolidating some of the Lenski affair articles? I think it would be better to have fewer rather than more. Sterilesnore! 09:05, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
- But, Sterile, just as everyone who arrives here wants to edit the Conservapedia article and the Andrew Schlafly article, right now everyone wants to add some half-brained attempt at another article on Lenski! Oops, I mean, I agree with you. ħuman
01:28, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Adding letters to Wikisource
I would like to add the letters to Wikisource. Schlafly's emails are in the public domain, since he published them on Conservapedia, but what about Prof. Lenski's? Did anyone ask him if he releases the emails into public domain, or under a license like GNU, or something? I though taht since you know how the actula second reply looked (bold parts) maybe someone had a conversation with him about this matter as well. 84.232.160.175 04:00, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
- Schlafly's letters are not public domain, they are some confused version of copyright thet even Andy does not understand. I suspect that Prof. Lenski does not mind repeated, infinite even, copying of his sublime prose. The bolding, etc., was in his originals. ħuman
04:03, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
Actually of what I understand from this page is that I may copy content without specifying the source. Though the second part (This license is revocable only in very rare instances of self-defense, such as protecting continued use by Conservapedia editors or other licensees or stopping unauthorized copying or mirroring of entire parts of this site.) doesn't make much sense. If anyone copies the content and does harm to Conservapedia, then there's not much they can do - the content was already released under this public-domain-ish license.
About Prof. Lenski's, I thought as much that he has nothing against these being widely spread (especially because of this: "I expect you to post my response in its entirety; if not, I will make sure that is made publicly available through other channels"), but as you might know Wikimedia is very strict with copyright. An explicit permission from the professor would be great. 84.232.160.175 04:42, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
- I have not corresponded with Prof. Lenski but it is my understanding that others have, and from all reports he seems a quite responsive sort of chap. I see that his e-mail is available on his web page - you might wish to simply ask him directly.--Bobbing up 05:27, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
- Belatedly - yes, I sent him a random "congratulations, no need to reply" email a couple weeks ago and he even replied to that with a quick "thank you". 84bunch, I'm sure if you emailed him he would reply with explicit permission. So go for it! ħuman
18:58, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
- Belatedly - yes, I sent him a random "congratulations, no need to reply" email a couple weeks ago and he even replied to that with a quick "thank you". 84bunch, I'm sure if you emailed him he would reply with explicit permission. So go for it! ħuman
[edit] CP's letter to PNAS
This cannot be a serious attempt on their part. They must realize, even in the back of that reptilian sized brain that they are not experts in any science, much less this specific field of microbiology... and that any attempt they make to PNSA will come off as either mearly a joke or another chance to be ridiculed around the world while so-called "Darwinists" get another chance to say "haha"(think - Nelson from Simpsons). This has to just be self-important, self-focused ego fluff that will never be actually mailed.--WaitingforGodot 18:05, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
- I removed the part that said they took it seriously, I think - it was just speculation. As it is, it may still not get sent. ħuman
18:56, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
£10.00 given to Amnesty Int'l 20 Sep 08 (I'd have given it anyway so not really fair, but ...)
ContribsTalk 14:44, 21 September 2008 (EDT)
- Just noting the source of the letter might raise a few chuckles amongst the recipients (should it ever be sent).Speakerface 20:34, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for formatting the letter on the page. I added it, but then I had a lot of trouble getting it to look good. I just cannot believe that they are going to send it. I just can't believe it. I want to see the response they get.EricB 20:42, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
- You're welcome, thanks for bringing it over. It wasn't hard to fix, just remember that leading spaces do weird things in MW. ħuman
21:04, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
I have to say, I do find it endlessly telling that Andy pushes this letter off to his acolytes. Telling them, in effect "well, I won't send it, but if you all want to, you can". Of course he knows that he is full of shit. but he can't let his minions know that he's full of shit. he'd never send this letter, but if it were sent by others, "that would be fine". He's also set up (for his acolytes) a win-win. "if they don't respond, well we all know what that means. If they do own up to the errors, then good for them. and if they try to dismiss us, well, that just shows they are part of the liberal science liers". --WaitingforGodot 09:56, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Ok, who wrote [1]? I really don't know which I would prefer: a) Schlafly ignores Stitch75's advice and PZ Myers posts about a crass incompetent piece of garbage posted without regard to the advice of those who evidently know what they are talking about or b) Aschlalfy takes the advice and gets humiliated in PNAS. The danger in the second is that he might try and word a decent objection, find he can't and drop the whole thing. "Of course he knows that he is full of shit.". Does he? Are you not arguing from the position that you would, from the position that you would have to be a raving madman, at least borderline clinically paranoid, to really actually believe what you would be saying and the "yes men" agreeing with you? Its that problem of teaching something that you are really good at: it's just so difficult thinking yourself into the position of someone who finds it hard: you have, as a sane person, difficulty imagining yourself gibbering like Andy. You wouldn't send the letter to PNAS, but then you wouldn't have sent the second letter to Lenski. You wouldn't have sent the first! Trust in Schalfly's idiocy, it hasn't let you down yet. --Toffeeman 15:56, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- Here's teh thing. If he *really* belived he had a point, he'd jump at the chance to submit that letter. Right now, all he is saying is "well, they won't post it anyhow" and "I write only for people here at CP" and "if they want to know the Truth, they know where to find it" tripe. That's the kind of distancing himself that happens when there is an inner war. --WaitingforGodot 16:11, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- Could it be akin to Gollum's spark of decency? There is Schalfly the malevolent, paranoid, egomaniac; the intellectually degenerate pustule of a human being hiding in the roots of the mountains jealously guarding his "precious" wiki. But, unremarked by the conscious mind, there remains a tiny little piece of the original Schlafly. This piece remembers all the kids laughing at the stupid remarks, remembers the red ink through the grammatical errors, the evil-lutionists jeers, the scorn and the ridicule. This piece remains sane and it struggles, struggles against the now-dominant madman. It can never reveal itself, if it does the madness will crush it utterly, but it tries and twists and pokes and prods to try and limit the damage the madman does. "well, they won't post it anyhow" is the sane Andy, the Andy too scared to say "for fucks sake mad-Andy, if you send it we'll look like a complete twat". Watch out for Andy starting to say "we", "us" and "our", and maybe going on about the "nasty, tricksy" parodists.--Toffeeman 08:27, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
- Here's teh thing. If he *really* belived he had a point, he'd jump at the chance to submit that letter. Right now, all he is saying is "well, they won't post it anyhow" and "I write only for people here at CP" and "if they want to know the Truth, they know where to find it" tripe. That's the kind of distancing himself that happens when there is an inner war. --WaitingforGodot 16:11, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- Oh, I hope he sends it. It would be perhaps the greatest moment of my life. I hope they honor conservapedia with a response. Does Lenski know about this? EricB 16:07, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- As I said on the WIGO talk page, writing an article comment is not writing a letter to the editor of a newspaper. They should have citations to the literature, and it will be peer reviewed (or more likely, rejected outright by the editor) as it is part of the scientific literature. If the grammar's bad, that's even worse. Sterilesnore! 16:14, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- I'll cheer them on, to see them send it. in Andy's name, of course... And if he does send it in, i would hope that the people at PNAS do bother to reply, demanding as they would for any of thier contributors, in bright red ink, "citation please" "source please" "where is your data to support this".--WaitingforGodot 16:22, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- It's getting painful to watch. Stitch75 has been trying to advise Andy on how to word the letter, he has expertise. His reward is a block threat [2]. Meanwhile Andy just laps up the parodists [3] what does it take for this man to learn? Why does he absolutely insist on making a complete and utter tit of himself, even to the extent of attacking those who are trying to ensure he keeps some shred of dignity? I almost feel sorry for him. --Toffeeman 08:04, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
- Actually i am absolutely sure Stitch75's real intention is not to ensure some dignity for Mr. Schlafly. I think it's more likely that he is seeking to inflict the maximum embarassment to Mr. Schlafly, which obviously would be that after a painful open, embarassing revision process in which Mr. Schlafly demonstrates his incompetence every five lines, the letter is turned down in an horribly well defined way, without any chance to silence the opponent or change the text any more. --Lilo57 15:37, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
- Fascinating. They count words already..... --124.85.78.182 04:41, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
- It's getting painful to watch. Stitch75 has been trying to advise Andy on how to word the letter, he has expertise. His reward is a block threat [2]. Meanwhile Andy just laps up the parodists [3] what does it take for this man to learn? Why does he absolutely insist on making a complete and utter tit of himself, even to the extent of attacking those who are trying to ensure he keeps some shred of dignity? I almost feel sorry for him. --Toffeeman 08:04, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
- I'll cheer them on, to see them send it. in Andy's name, of course... And if he does send it in, i would hope that the people at PNAS do bother to reply, demanding as they would for any of thier contributors, in bright red ink, "citation please" "source please" "where is your data to support this".--WaitingforGodot 16:22, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
- As I said on the WIGO talk page, writing an article comment is not writing a letter to the editor of a newspaper. They should have citations to the literature, and it will be peer reviewed (or more likely, rejected outright by the editor) as it is part of the scientific literature. If the grammar's bad, that's even worse. Sterilesnore! 16:14, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Mr Schlafly's letter WAS sent to PNAS and is currently under review. See http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Letter_to_PNAS :-) 67.72.98.45 15:18, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
It is nice to see that PNAS did not just reject the letter but provided a neatly worded explanation for its rejection. Hopefully SOMEONE will learn from it. 67.72.98.45 22:56, 12 September 2008 (EDT)
- You didn't read the talk page, did you? Ashfly was pwnt hard and concurred with the first commmenter, who accused the PNAS of conspiracy. If anyone does, it won't be the CP leadership. EVDebs 23:02, 12 September 2008 (EDT)
- I did read the talk page , and I didnt really think any of the diehard CPers would learn anything, but its more fun this way. Now we can wait and see if some suicidal puppet will try to explain just WHY Andy got it wrong, or if one of the inner circle will stir the pot. (how do you tell the puppets from the inner circle ? I need a scorecard. 67.72.98.45 00:27, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
stirring has commenced and action favoring going after his government funding is front runner. Also suggested is letter of complaint accusing ACADEMIC FRAUD to the University. Anyone here up on defamation or libel laws (or is it slander) 67.72.98.45 19:50, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
[edit] New Scientist comment
Don't know if this has been brought up anywhere. It's a New Scientist ref to CP. It's old news so I suppose it's somewhere on here.
ContribsTalk 13:16, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
[edit] Regarding omissions from second reply
It seems that the omissions from the second reply, excluding the RationalWiki link, have now been reentered into Conservapedia's transcription of the letter. Somebody with more knowledge, please investigate this. 66.21.203.228 11:29, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
[edit]
The following users participating in the CP discussions about the topic experienced blocks (Please correct the list, these are the ones i have noticed):
By Andrew Schlafly Himself: Jirby, Raul, Argon, MickA, Kallium, KimEide, Stitch75, BenHur, Drek, Carolyn
By others: Toffeeman, AlexaJ, DRamon, DinsdaleP, YoungA
[edit] Link
How do we know what the censored links in the second letter were? Did Lenski send us the original, or what. Phantom Hoover 12:33, 5 January 2009 (EST)
- If memory serves, he told anybody who bothered to e-mail him about it. Though I wonder why he'd choose to link that rather than the other dozen articles specifically about Conservapedia's blocking behaviour. NightFlare 12:50, 5 January 2009 (EST)
- He used it because he is/was a fan of RW. Also, perhaps, because he may have known CP would censor it (without a comment in the middle, you can't even save the word "rationalwiki" there). ħuman
19:07, 5 January 2009 (EST)
- He used it because he is/was a fan of RW. Also, perhaps, because he may have known CP would censor it (without a comment in the middle, you can't even save the word "rationalwiki" there). ħuman
[edit] Lenski's second letter: pain-staking?
In the letter, is "pain-staking" in the original or is that just some random hyphenation for "pains-taking"? —Monado 19:00, 28 January 2009 (EST)
- It's in the original as it appears on Conservapedia. Could be Lenski's mistake or Schlafly's transcription error. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:03, 28 January 2009 (EST)
[edit] I just noticed...
Happy belated birthday to the Lenski Affair! It was one year old about a month ago!
postate 12:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ahhhhhhh those were the days eh. Ace McWickedNecron99 12:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Alright
if anyone wonders what I just did, I just put the letters in a subpage, and then locked the subpage to everyone but admins. That way the rest of the article can be edited, but the letters themself can not be edited. Kwsn 15:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah. I was wondering, thanks for explaining. We don't usually protect pages, but I suppose this could be an exception.--BobNot Jim 15:08, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, I figured that was the case but since it's a "historical" part, and it shouldn't changed, I just went ahead with it. Kwsn 15:10, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- On a good note, no more ugly template on the page now, thanks Toast. Kwsn (Ni!) 15:26, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Good idea. And it condenses the page a little so that you can't easily accidentally edit those bits. I don't think we should be particularly scared of locking stuff like that to sysop only, anyway.
postate 16:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining... only issue is that just about anyone who has been here 2 days and not blanked the main page is a sysop, so the protection doesn't really achieve anything here the way it would elsewhere. Is there at least a "noincluded" warning on the subpage saying not to edit it? ħuman
21:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, I see there is. Good. Yes, ignoring the protection issue, it hides the banner nicely, so good work! ħuman
21:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining... only issue is that just about anyone who has been here 2 days and not blanked the main page is a sysop, so the protection doesn't really achieve anything here the way it would elsewhere. Is there at least a "noincluded" warning on the subpage saying not to edit it? ħuman
- Good idea. And it condenses the page a little so that you can't easily accidentally edit those bits. I don't think we should be particularly scared of locking stuff like that to sysop only, anyway.
[edit] Grace
Revisited this page after reading the RW tech blog update. And find that my favourite part is still this: "...It was Genesis 1:27-28, in which God created Man and Woman. It’s a very simple and lovely story, and I did not ask any questions, storm out, or demand the evidence that it happened as written at a time when science did not yet exist. I was there in the realm of spirituality and mutual respect, not confusing a house of religion for a science class or laboratory..." The man has more class and more understanding of what it means to act in a "christian" manner than Andrew can ever hope to attain. Fox 09:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Its refreshing to see Conservapedia and Andrew Schlafly discussed in such a frank and open manner - without the threat of being blocked. Lenski's exchange with Schlafly definitely has a familiar ring. While I may not be a microbiologist, my discussion with DouglasA about science and the Bible on the talk page of his Essay: Quantifying Order, led to my being blocked by JacobB. After my views were labeled as "nonsense" and "rants" by DouglasA, I wrote that "since 'loving your neighbor as yourself' doesn't seem to be your forte", he could at least cite chapter and verse in support of whatever arguments he might make. Schlafly called me a "provocateur", and I was blocked for violating the "90/10 rule".
Somethings about Schlafly and his cohorts need to be kept in mind, aside from their immunity to rationality. Schlafly's insistence on Lenski's work being tax-payer funded and its being open to public scrutiny comes from his belief that evolution is a religion, and any public funding of the "proof of evolution" violates the separation of church and state. While Lenski and the rest of us may not confuse "a house of religion for a science class or laboratory", Schlafly, et al., are unwilling or unable to make that distinction.
We might further elucidate Schlafly's take on science. On the talk page of Conservapedia's article on Science, he makes his view perfectly clear: " . . my own view is that politics transcends all categories and all disciplines. Every profession is affected by political bias, so why not scientists also? George Orwell was right, I feel, when he said 'all issues are political.' It's only recently that the public has woken up to the political distortions in science." So Lenski's experiments over 20 years demonstrating evolution in E. coli, is ultimately, for Schlafly, a political expression of Lenski's liberal, and, of course, anti-Christian and atheistic political views. Trying to discuss scientific facts in an objective way with Schlafly, et al., is basically a waste of time. For them, a scientists' objectivity is very much in doubt. Of course, since for Schlafly everything is political, then his Christianity is also very much in doubt. - Danielitld — Unsigned, by: Danielitld / talk / contribs
- I like a lot of what you just said. The religion=atheism/paid for by gummint part was very interesting, but I don't think Schlafly is as smart as you to figure that out. ħuman
02:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Reference section
Any reason why there's a reference section in the middle of the article and then footnotes as normal at the bottom? I'm going to remove the first one... DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 17:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- First one is from the Lenski letters themselves. The last is our references for the article. tmtoulouse 17:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- But it's not, Trent! For example the first ref from our introduction appears in "references" rather than "footnotes". The only ref from the emails to appear in "references" is the Genesis quote. I think it's more to do with how the correspondence is linked from the subpage... DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 17:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've removed the refs section from the subpage, and all seems well. Phew! DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 17:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- But it's not, Trent! For example the first ref from our introduction appears in "references" rather than "footnotes". The only ref from the emails to appear in "references" is the Genesis quote. I think it's more to do with how the correspondence is linked from the subpage... DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 17:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Letter to PNAS
Is it worth mentioning that just as in the original Lenski dialogue when quite a few people tried to advise Andy that he was doing it all wrong etc, the same happened for the PNAS letter where one of the points several I think people emphasised is he shouldn't be basically accusing Lenski of misconduct as the PNAS letter guidelines makes it clear they shouldn't contain accusations of misconduct. Andy of course ignored these suggestions, saying something like 'well they can take them out if they need to' because sure when an organisations tells you 'don't do this' and you go ahead and do it anyway it's their responsibility to fix what they already told you not to do (and which you were aware of. Nil Einne (talk) 12:44, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. I've added a bit, but the difflinks over at CP seem to be all screwed up. Maybe somebody can find/fix/tidy things up. --PsyGremlinRunāt! 13:08, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Censorship
It has recently come to m attention that conservapedia has since uncensored the material (could it have somtething to do with RW?) and I was wondering if that could be mentioned in that section, I'm not recommending getting rid of the section just entioning that the censorship has since been fixed. Do not assume because of this that I believe in god or creaionism, I just wanted to point it out.— Unsigned, by: 76.69.40.66 / talk / contribs
- No one is going to bite you like that here. However, I just checked out the letter and it does still appear to be censored and unchanged since 2009? Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have a link showing this, M. 76...? ħuman
17:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.’ was uncensored, so was "And yet life evolves!", "I was at church attending a wedding", "remember to wash your hands", "I take education seriously", and all the others too, see http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog (Sorry I couldn't post a link).
- Do you have a link showing this, M. 76...? ħuman
[edit] Emphases in reposted/quoted letters ...
The letters contain emphasised text (in boldface). It would be good to see some clarification in the article on whose emphases they are; if they are not Lenski's, they should probably either be clearly identified as non-original or edited out. If they are not part of the original Lenski material, a brief explanation of the intended significance of the added emphases might be worth considering.
- I see now that in looking straight at it I somehow missed the explanation that the bolding marked material censored from CW. Mea maxima culpa.
[edit] Ha!
Zachary Blount's Defense makes an oblique reference to Schlafly. --TheLateGatsby (talk) 13:43, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
[edit] This is...
...one of the best articles on RW. Every time it cycles around on the main page I reread it, and I love it every time. VOXHUMANA 12:30, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
