Talk:Libertarianism
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[edit] HTML
HTML was originally a subset of SGML, which was created at IBM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGML#History HTML5, which this page is written in, appeared spontaneously on the free market in lieu of cooperation between the major players - the specs were created after the fact. This was preceded by failed top-down standardization attempts of XHTML. The "invention" of HTTP was a one man's job and followed other free market attempts of implementing hypertext, many other popular protocols were created in various places (XMPP - open-source community, IRC - a private individual, BBS - individuals for private needs). HTTP, like HTML was standardized after wide market adoption and later extended - SPDY is becoming it's widely accepted successor and will be standardized as HTML 2.0 (scrapping previous failed attempts). Creative stuff was always done by individuals and can't be institutionalized.
Apart from these inconsistencies, just because ARPANET, HTTP and HTML is something that the author heard about doesn't mean there aren't a zillion other things that happen when a user clicks the "Internet Explorer" icon on their desktop. Each of them create a set of problems that have already bees solved by the free market and the end-user never hears about any of them (apart from some marketing and government propaganda). Somebody not in the business just can't understand or regulate an invention into existence.
The other points in the article represent similar magical thinking, mixing conservative/right-wing and libertarian ideas, which are never settled and always open for discussion. Libertarians focus on decentralization and anti-authoritarianism thus enabling competition between those different ideas. Some of the people involved obviously have their own belief of what those are and which would win. I don't feel competent enough to edit this obviously very political and US-centric article because I'm just looking from the outside :)— Unsigned, by: 5.185.37.97 / talk / contribs 16:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- The brand of Libertarian-ism practiced inside of the United States is absolutely pro-authoritarian / pro-fascism ideology. It may not be thus in other countries but within the United States Libertarianism as practiced is indistinguishable from right wing extremist Republicanism, a virtual mirror of Fascism as defined and practiced under Nazi Italy's model of Fascism. (i.e. corporations being the same as the ruling government, an ideology which U.S. Libertarians / Republicans embrace to the detriment of Democracy.) There is nothing "anti-authoritarianism" about right wing politics. It is entirely the ideology of obedience to the corporate State. Damotclese (talk) 01:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- You're a complete idiot. It was Roosevelt who admired Mussolini's model of government. Pretty much the opposite of a libertarian. Using state power to support big corporations was one of the favorite tactics of the original progressives in the name of efficiency and doing away with "endless duplication". The idea that Nazi Germany was a small government free market is pretty ridiculous. Corporations were given massive state power under Stalin. Does this make Soviet Russia capitalist? By your logic, it would seem so. There were strict laws on free speech, gun ownership, vice, and a large amount of people's money was confiscated by the Nazi state. Does this sound like Ron Paul's platform to you? Do you think Hitler or Mussolini would favor the decriminalization of marijuana or prostitution? Do you think Hitler or Mussolini would've protested the Iraq War, or spoke against the patriot act? Do you think libertarians would favor the holocaust? Burkean (talk) 06:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like a moron has no idea what the history of the rise of Italian Fascism was nor, forthat matter, what Fascism is. What, you right wing Republican morons can't use Google? Damotclese (talk) 16:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like someone is in complete denial. FDR praised Mussolini's model many times, Mussolini, like Hitler, derided capitalism as decadent (and in Hitler's case, believed to be jewish). Mussolini was quoted as saying that fascism was "everything within the state, nothing outside the state". Some of you hacks, like Michael Parenti, have tried to claim that fascism was small government and free market and failed miserably. Thankfully, though I disagree with them much of the time, most people on rationalwiki acknowledge that fascism is completely different from libertarianism. Huge gun control, economic autarky, huge regulations, stirring people against the "capitalist class", not to mention all the vice laws in fascist Italy or Germany. I have yet to vote for a republican, and as a libertarian I would put both George W. Bush and Reagan near the very bottom of the list of our presidents. Not that google should be considered a reliable source, but I don't remember google saying that fascism was a cousin of free market libertarianism. So apparently, you suffer from the same affliction the right wing suffers from. Namely, neither of you can read. Burkean (talk) 18:56, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Accusation of anti-semitism
Should we mention that the libertarian movement has been accused of flirting with anti-semitism (Reason magazine and holocaust denialism, Rothchild conspiracy theories being accepted as doctrine among "repeal the Fed" types). It's worth noting that a common retort to this accusation is that many libertarian thinkers (Friendman, Murray Rothbard) were Jewish, which seems to border on a Friends argument but I don't know. It seems worth bringing up somewhere though. ClothCoat (talk) 05:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- True of parts of it, definitely - David Gerard (talk) 11:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Alan Greenspan
The article gives the impression that Alan Greenspan was implementing Randian ideas which led to the housing bubble and collapse. Anybody remotely aware of Ayn Rand or monetary policy would realize that Greenspan as Federal Reserve Chairman acted in a way that Ayn Rand severely criticized while she was alive. Greenspan implemented an inflationary monetary policy at the Fed, which Ayn Rand spoke against in her publications. You can find many quotes by her on this exact subject here: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/inflation.html#order_2. The article's current mention of Greenspan is an outrageously erroneous pile of nonsense.
- You remind me of Pure Marxists who claim famous communist leaders weren't the real deal because they didn't implement true communism. Sectarian differences notwithstanding he was a libertarian, and he implemented more libertarian policies than nearly all of the Fed chairman before him. ClothCoat (talk) 21:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Let's be rational about libertarianism
This article is embarrassingly non-neutral, giving an (illogical and propagandistic) American social liberal narrative as opposed to a rational analysis of libertarian philosophy, its history and its role in the modern world. I write as a European who is sympathetic to the ideals of non-aggression and limited government interference in our personal and economic lives.
Essentially, it should be pointed out that libertarianism is not some new American phenomenon - it is the modern incarnation of the philosophy of classical liberalism. Classical liberalism lives on to this day in Europe with a variety of European parties that are pro-free market and pro-individual liberty being called the "Liberal Party", such as "FDP.The Liberals" in Switzerland, which is the biggest Swiss party by number of members. Because the American centre-left (whose ideology largely resembles what is called "social democracy" in Europe) began in the early 20th Century to call themselves "liberals", American classical liberals arguably needed to find a new name to avoid confusion, and for whatever reason they settled upon "libertarian". But you can read the works of any 18th or 19th century liberal, say The Law by Frederic Bastiat, and you'll the same ideas as those being promoted by modern libertarians: free markets as opposed to centralised authority, property rights that arise out of creation of value as opposed to state decree, and the liberty and rights of the individual to pursue happiness on his own terms.
Classical liberalism was the dominant worldview not only among the early European industrialists, but also among the founders of the United States and writers of its constitution. Without a doubt classical liberalism is older than socialism or social democracy (i.e. social liberalism) - the original meaning of "left wing" were those in the French Assembly who supported individual rights, free markets and republic as opposed to those on the original "right wing" who supported aristocracy and traditional power structures.
Libertarianism (classical liberalism) isn't a panacea and has never been proposed as such, it is just the consistent rejection of involuntary authority - the rejection of all authority that others seek to involuntarily assert over your life or legitimately-acquired property. An absence of involuntary authority doesn't mean abuses don't still occur (because humans will never be perfect) - it just means that when they do, you have the right 1. to leave and 2. to seek justice. In comparison, if you are victimised by a government, not only will you not necessarily have the right to leave (and if that government does allow you to leave, it will involve moving a long distance and entering a new culture - and note the word "allow" - when an involuntary monopoly of power is involved you only ever have revocable privileges, not defendable rights), you can't seek justice because the government has claimed a monopoly on the deliverance of justice and no organisation will rule against itself if it doesn't want to.
A rational person is surely one who is skeptical of those who possess aggressive militaries, compulsory education systems, expansive tax collection infrastructure, police forces, monopoly justice systems and media outlets, and who heavily regulate the emergence of competitors to these services. Libertarians may not be the only group of people who are thinking critically about authority, but they're certainly included among those who do. --Anotherrationalist (talk) 20:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Lol, you think RationalWiki is Rational? That's you're problem right there, it's essentially a liberal circlejerk when it comes to anything remotely political. --70.74.184.181 (talk) 01:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
I think you mean to say it is an illiberal, social democratic circlejerk.
- Most of your post is just a history of left-right politics please do not do that try to stay on topic in the future.
- "A rational person is surely one who is skeptical of those who possess aggressive militaries, compulsory education systems, expansive tax collection infrastructure, police forces, monopoly justice systems and media outlets, and who heavily regulate the emergence of competitors to these services. " Right but we're not criticizing them for this, this would be considered an inherent part of democracy. We're criticizing them for things like global warming denialism, an extreme opposition to the welfare state in favor of rather dubious economic assesments, and a tendency to view everyone who opposes them as only marginally different from Hitler or Stalin.
- To the BON, stop being so stereotypical. ClothCoat (talk) 04:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
[edit] inaccurate
Ludwig Von Mises was NOT a deontological libertarian, but a consequentialist one. Also, the FEE does promote libertarianism with consequentialist stances and arguments. The section about notable libertarians does not include a handful of Nobel laureates (Smith, Buchanan and others) and other public figures. --Edosan (talk) 14:24, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Anon in the wrong spot
Comments:
Can't find a discussion page so I'll leave this here. As a moderate libertarian, I am not totally anti-welfare or government. I just believe the government often creates many of the problems it then has to solve, anybody can objectively agree with that. In regards to NAP, one chooses to smoke cigarettes of their own free will, while failure to pay taxes/other illegal activities come with government mandated consequence and thus don't permit the freedom to choose glorified by us. And no political ideology is without its' flaws.
- Thanks to RW readers and editors for allowing me to add this— Unsigned, by: 99.113.64.37 / talk 02:44, 10 October 2014 (UTC)