Talk:Men Going Their Own Way
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[edit] Celibacy
Is this concept pretty similar to celibacy? Landmartian (talk) 03:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure. Isn't celibacy about purity or spirituality? Self-imposed celebacy to avoid the intricacies of opposite-sex dating is more of a cop out than celibacy. ShabiDOO 14:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- It might be the only viable option for some. "Cop out" usually implies some shirking of responsibility, but there is no responsibility to date. And if someone realizes he's not going to be able to find a woman who's willing to put up with him, and who will do what's necessary to please him, then maybe he's doing both himself and womankind a favor by not dating. It's not to say that either the women or that guy are wrong. It's just that they're not a good match.
- There could be all kinds of reasons why a guy would choose to stay permanently single. Maybe his income is low, he can't figure out a way to increase it, and he's not satisfied with the women he can attract with that level of income. Maybe he's not satisfied with a relationship that doesn't lead to marriage, but he's also wary of how women can wreak a lot of havoc on a guy's life because of how the divorce system is set up. In that case, it's a situation of not even hating the players, but hating the game. Landmartian (talk) 15:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- You're trying to find the positives in a concept and term rooted in the fact that women should feel like they are missing out from these men "going there own way". These guy's aren't doing it because no relationship is leading to marriage, or because they don't have money, but because women aren't being what the men want and so they are "on strike".--Miekal 15:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keeping in mind that they completely disregard the diversity of beliefs and behaviors among women. Incredibly dense sexism is a functional prerequisite for membership. Ikanreed (talk) 16:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Apparently there are a lot of variants of MGTOW. This article says "The problem, of course is the gun in the room, and the willingness of averagely socialized, 'normal' women to use that metaphorical gun." So it would seem they don't have a problem with all women; just normal women. But that too might vary from one MGTOW to another. Landmartian (talk) 16:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keeping in mind that they completely disregard the diversity of beliefs and behaviors among women. Incredibly dense sexism is a functional prerequisite for membership. Ikanreed (talk) 16:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- You're trying to find the positives in a concept and term rooted in the fact that women should feel like they are missing out from these men "going there own way". These guy's aren't doing it because no relationship is leading to marriage, or because they don't have money, but because women aren't being what the men want and so they are "on strike".--Miekal 15:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- There could be all kinds of reasons why a guy would choose to stay permanently single. Maybe his income is low, he can't figure out a way to increase it, and he's not satisfied with the women he can attract with that level of income. Maybe he's not satisfied with a relationship that doesn't lead to marriage, but he's also wary of how women can wreak a lot of havoc on a guy's life because of how the divorce system is set up. In that case, it's a situation of not even hating the players, but hating the game. Landmartian (talk) 15:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- No. "No (long term) relationships with women" does not mean "no sex". One-night stands and prostitution are the most obvious counterexamples.--ZooGuard (talk) 14:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Women going their own way
Is there a female version of this? I know some women who say they've given up on men after having had some unpleasant romantic experiences, and now have decided to stay single. Landmartian (talk) 15:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Lesbian separatism is a pretty old thing at this point. It's a flavor of radfem. Ikanreed (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- MGTOWs aren't openly gay, though, so lesbian separatists aren't really analogous to MGTOWs. Landmartian (talk) 17:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Asian women
"Occasionally, proponents of the movement will advocate that Western men try marrying Asian women instead, as they are "apparently" more demure and submissive. Asian-American feminists and other decent human beings are wholly disgusted by this idea, as are the MGTOWers who also frequent Stormfront."
Why would Asian-American feminists care about this stereotype? It's not even a racially based stereotype; it's a cultural stereotype that doesn't apply to those who are of Asian descent but grew up in America and were immersed in a culture that included western feminist values. Landmartian (talk) 17:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- You think bigots are going to make a distinction between "looks foreign" and "is foreign"? Complexion is culture to these people. Ikanreed (talk) 17:20, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- However, any site you go to that advertises submissive foreign women is probably going to consist, on the female side, 99%+ of women currently living in other countries. So I don't think these guys are going to get confused and accidentally end up with an Asian-American woman when they go looking for submissive women in those venues. Landmartian (talk) 17:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Why wouldn't asian american feminists care, exactly? --Miekal 18:40, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Asian Americans don't care about people stereotyping Asians? Are you sure about this, Landmartian? Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:49, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- (ec) Because it doesn't have an impact on their agenda, that I know of. Suppose MGTOWs go overseas looking for demure and submissive women. They'll either (1) find out that those foreign women aren't what they expected, or they'll (2) find such women, marry them, and either expatriate or bring them back to the U.S. In the case of (1), the stereotype is dispelled ("Any person projecting the stereotypes of submissiveness, etc. onto an Asian female is likely to get a sound rebuke"); in the case of (2), it's probably no worse for those foreign women than if they'd married a man from their own country. All that has happened is that a person moved from one country to another; the global feminist struggle remains mostly unaffected. If you consider it solely from the standpoint of the American feminist movement, then yeah, it could be harmful to have guys importing women who are going to be more submissive, since it could impact American culture in ways that work against the feminist agenda.
- Asian Americans don't care about people stereotyping Asians? Are you sure about this, Landmartian? Wëäŝëïöïď
- Why wouldn't asian american feminists care, exactly? --Miekal 18:40, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- However, any site you go to that advertises submissive foreign women is probably going to consist, on the female side, 99%+ of women currently living in other countries. So I don't think these guys are going to get confused and accidentally end up with an Asian-American woman when they go looking for submissive women in those venues. Landmartian (talk) 17:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- I personally have never observed anyone saying that Asian-American women are more submissive than American women of any other race, so I don't see evidence that the stereotype is applied across nationalities, and would therefore have any direct effect on Asian-Americans. Most of the women who marry these American guys who are looking for a submissive (or non-confrontational, anyway) woman probably are willing to fit into that role (judging by the success rate of those marriages), but that's a small, specially-selected subset of women of Asian descent living in the U.S.
- Great example: notice how the Classy Asian Ladies ad on this site points out how the Asian-Americans women they feature already are established in their own careers and have their own status. That doesn't fit with the stereotype of a passive housewife.
- Interestingly, it looks like some Asian-American feminists have beefs with how they're being treated by the larger feminist movement. Landmartian (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Greater concern for women who don't fit the social "norm" on race, class, sexual preference, or culture is one of the big distinctions between second and third wave feminism, and is also one of the most common things I've seen glossed over by radical feminism. If we're honest, the distinction isn't entirely granular either. There's still a lot of white middle class obsession.
- Take, for example, college rape. It's genuinely a big deal, because college needs to be an inclusive, save environment, but women who go to college are less likely to be raped than women who dropped out of high school. There aren't easy answers for the interests of the empowered getting more attention than the dis-empowered. Ikanreed (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- I hadn't thought about it before, but both the MRA and feminist movements probably consist mostly of middle-class whites. These groups would tend to be well-educated and able to articulate themselves in venues where they'll be readily heard, such as blogs or, in the case of feminists, scholarly journals funded by VAWA and similar grant programs (which gives them a major advantage, since such journals are considered reliable sources in places like Wikipedia). The MRA movement has basically no funding; but its positions still have powerful supporters in the good ol' boy system. Poverty-stricken ethnic groups that are preoccupied with economic survival tend to not have time for activism. Landmartian (talk) 20:01, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's a bit of an extreme version, partially because of the racism endemic in how it is phrased, but yeah, you have the long and the short of it. Again there's been a more recent(well, call the early 90s recent) attempt within the feminist community to acknowledge the non-uniformity of women, and embrace more diversity. Ikanreed (talk) 20:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Some other issues are that "Asian American women are criticized for the possible consequences of their protests: weakening of the male ego, dilution of effort and resources in Asian American communities, destruction of working relationships between Asian men and women, setbacks for the Asian American cause, cooptation into the larger society, and eventual loss of ethnic identity for Asian Americans as a whole. In short, affiliation with the feminist movement is perceived as a threat to solidarity within their own community. All these forces have restricted the development of feminist consciousness among Asian American women and their active participation in the feminist movement." Black women supposedly had a similar experience.
- That's a bit of an extreme version, partially because of the racism endemic in how it is phrased, but yeah, you have the long and the short of it. Again there's been a more recent(well, call the early 90s recent) attempt within the feminist community to acknowledge the non-uniformity of women, and embrace more diversity. Ikanreed (talk) 20:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- I hadn't thought about it before, but both the MRA and feminist movements probably consist mostly of middle-class whites. These groups would tend to be well-educated and able to articulate themselves in venues where they'll be readily heard, such as blogs or, in the case of feminists, scholarly journals funded by VAWA and similar grant programs (which gives them a major advantage, since such journals are considered reliable sources in places like Wikipedia). The MRA movement has basically no funding; but its positions still have powerful supporters in the good ol' boy system. Poverty-stricken ethnic groups that are preoccupied with economic survival tend to not have time for activism. Landmartian (talk) 20:01, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Interestingly, it looks like some Asian-American feminists have beefs with how they're being treated by the larger feminist movement. Landmartian (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- "Fighting racial discrimination was seen as being more important of a priority than fighting sexism. . . . Without understanding the history and culture of Asian American women, some white feminists have been impatient with the low level of consciousness among women of color and the slow progress toward feminism of Asian American women." Supposedly, "Political expediency drove white feminists to accept principles that were directly opposed to the survival and well-being of blacks in order to seek to achieve more limited advances for women." Examples of this were "Besides the color bar which existed in many white women's organizations, black women were infuriated by white women's accommodation to the principle of lynch law in order to gain support in the South and the attacks of well-known feminists against anti-lynching crusader, Ida Wells." Also, "Historically, as well as currently, Black women have felt called upon to choose between their commitments to feminism and to the struggle against racial injustice. Clearly they are victims of both forms of oppression and are most in need of encouragement and support in waging battles on both fronts. However, insistence on such a choice continues largely as a result of the tendency of groups of Blacks and groups of women to battle over the dubious distinction of being the 'most' oppressed." Also, "Chinatown women lack a sense of personal efficacy or control over outcomes in their lives, do not have a systematic understanding of the structural and cultural elements of a society that produces sexism, and tend to blame themselves for social problems." Landmartian (talk) 21:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- A group of investors think that Israelis are easy to sell toxic funds to as they have this stereotype that their banks are looking for a quick buck and will buy any investment. They think their best bet (as financial laws in the US is making toxic investing more difficult) is to sell crappy bonds to Israeli bankers. American Jews find this stereotype and practice disgusting. Why would American Jews care? They aren't in Israel. They aren't the ones being stereotyped or sold toxic bonds to. They've grown up in the United States where people of religion are known to fight against religious and racial profiling. Why would Jews in the US be offended at all about any of this?
- American men have learned that in a couple states in North Eastern India women are known to take almost all responsibility, do all the work and not trust men even with housework. American men think their best best is to move there and bag such a wife and then sit around in lazy luxury. American-Indians find not only the racial stereotype offensive but find it disgusting and sexist. Why would American-Indian people care? They aren't the ones American men are trying to marry to live like slobbish pigs with. They've grown up in a country where men contribute to housework and never expect women to take care of an unfair portion of domestic-chores.
- A group of vile young Americans have heard that in parts of Haiti people are so poor they'll have sex for two dollars and sell you weed for 10 cents a gram. These American douchebags who are poor and have no lucks with the chicks think their only bet is to go there and screw whores and smoke weed while they save for their college fun. Haitian Americans find the whole idea revoltingly disgusting. Why would Hatian Americans care? They aren't the ones being screwed for petty cash. It's not as though this is a racial stereotype either. Haitian Americans have grown up in the US which is a virtual racial and gender equality paradise.
- Indeed why on earth would any of these people be offended by any of these stereotypes or disgusting behaviour. They aren't the ones being affected so why would they give a shit? It's such a perplexing enigmatic conundrum I am utterly aghast why these people would act so irrationally ridonculous. ShabiDOO 02:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] As usual, a troll whines and cries about all the injustices that they have to listen to
As usual, a site where pathetic feminists, whiny minorities, and white-guilt men whine and cry about all the injustice they have built up in their tiny heads. — Unsigned, by: RBJK515 / talk / contribs
[edit] References for this article
I came here looking for references for the draft of the article MGTOW on Wikipedia, but when I followed the links as cited I found none of the references cited in this article showed any reference to the term "MGTOW". Please fix this I don't know if it's linkrot or what but your citations didn't work. Chrisrus (talk) 03:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Objectivity
This article has a complete lack of objectivity and neutrality. The article uses bias, value judgments, and opinions in lieu of facts. I suggest it be stricken or modified to be more based on facts and a little less of slant and opinion. RationalWiki is not a place for OpEd pieces. — Unsigned, by: Mtravis38 / talk / contribs
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- Please state specific parts of the article that you disagree with and how you would improve them. FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 23:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Umm... Rationalwiki isn't objective; we never claimed to be. True objectivity is impossible. Our bias is towards free-thought, science, egalitarianism, and the general advancement of the human race. MGTOW is blatantly anti-women, thus opposes us on egalitarianism. If you don't like it, there's plenty of server space to write your own opinions. OTHER servers. CorruptUser (talk) 23:58, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the original post about the lack of neutrality and objectivity. This article is clearly biased, and written in a manner that isn't objective. It definitely isn't anything that belongs on a Wiki page. Wikis are not blogs. 24.246.17.80 (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
- For reference, we adopt an explicitly non-neutral point of view. We're not the other wiki[wp]. PacWalker 17:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
- Men Going Their Own Way is an objectively horrible movement that attracts objectively horrible people. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 17:55, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Argumentum_ad_cellarium
Do you think the argumentum_ad_cellarium in the end of the second paragraph is acceptable? "The argument is used to dismiss someone or their views by accusing them of lacking in the usual social and living skills that society expects, and thus being forced to resort to living in their parents' basement." I feel like some random asshat is going to call us out on that and say that we're making men conform to society's expectations or else. --Daehrettop (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2015 (UTC)